Islam - What's your view on it?

[sumbrownkid]

Oh god the irony.



Most people acting in the name of religion are acting out of some fear of punishment rather than the interest of others. The whole "what is the point of life without faith and salvation" kind of skews people to doing things for a clear cut reward.

Religion is ultimately born out of fear of the unknown, and thus its aspirations are rarely noble.

You can say the same thing for just about anything though. Why do people form governments? For the fear of anarchy. Why do people obey the law? For fear of being incarcerated or paying heavily. Why do we pay insurance? For fear of paying out the wazoo if something bad happens. Why do we get jobs? For fear of being homeless and hungry.

Fear is something that us humans feel even if it's very minute and hidden and can also drive people to action, be it for wrong or right reasons. However is it right for fear alone to be the basis of every action? I say no.

And Jihad simply means struggle in Arabic. When it comes to religious connotations does it mean to struggle against something else and that something else usually means oppressor.

Shoot Algebra was my Jihad in high school and come college I managed to overcome it.

 

[DK]

[My criticism of Mother Teresa also] goes for JPII. Admittedly, I do like him somewhat for his world travels and attempts to bring different cultures together but his orthodox ecclesiastic conservatism leaves him open to criticism as any individual, Pope or not, should be.

There's also the rather large matter of clerical abuse.

 

[sumbrownkid]

Guess I'll have to put another asterisk in my post.

 

[Danoff]

You can say the same thing for just about anything though. Why do people form governments? For the fear of anarchy.

Usually government is formed without the people's consent, and usually it's a dictatorship. Democratic governments are formed because people want some say in their society. It's not out of fear, but out of a desire for control.

Why do people obey the law? For fear of being incarcerated or paying heavily.

Depends on the law. That's why I obey some speed limits for sure. That's not why I obey copyright laws and refuse to pirate movies for example. I have a netflix account, and a computer that can decrypt (legally) every movie that netflix sends me. And yet I don't? Do I think I'll get caught? Heck no.

Most laws I obey because I have no desire to break them, and no desire to see the consequences of breaking them affect those around me. For example, I don't choose to avoid murdering people because I'm afraid of going to jail, I choose to avoid murdering people because I don't feel like murdering people, and I don't want to see the families/loved ones of those people suffer the consequences of my actions.

Why do we get jobs? For fear of being homeless and hungry.

I got my job because I wanted to accomplish something with my life.

 

[sumbrownkid]

@Danoff: Hmm good points.

Edit: these last couple pages kinda took a detour off the Islam thread and into a more general religion discussion. But hey, at least we got a good discussion out of it.👍

 

[Scaff]

Depends on the law. That's why I obey some speed limits for sure. That's not why I obey copyright laws and refuse to pirate movies for example. I have a netflix account, and a computer that can decrypt (legally) every movie that netflix sends me. And yet I don't? Do I think I'll get caught? Heck no.

Exactly. I murder the exact number of people I want to murder, which is none.

 

[sumbrownkid]

Exactly. I murder the exact number of people I want to murder, which is none.

I would murder some Oreos after breaking my fast however.

 

[Scaff]

Not true, incorrect translation.

Then I'm sure you would be kind enough to supply us with the correct definition, along with sources to allow this to be verified.

I only ask as you seem to be rather big on the claim of facts, but utterly lacking in any kind of source to verify these 'fact's, point in question I'm still waiting on a few from you. It quiet simply state your opinion as much as you like (within the AUP), but make a claim of fact and it is expected to be backed up.

 

[Azuremen]

You can say the same thing for just about anything though. Why do people form governments? For the fear of anarchy. Why do people obey the law? For fear of being incarcerated or paying heavily. Why do we pay insurance? For fear of paying out the wazoo if something bad happens. Why do we get jobs? For fear of being homeless and hungry.

Danoff covered this fairly well. And we get jobs because we want things and stuff, or else everyone would work just enough to not starve, which is very little in reality.

Fear is something that us humans feel even if it's very minute and hidden and can also drive people to action, be it for wrong or right reasons. However is it right for fear alone to be the basis of every action? I say no.

Worry and fear are different. The "fears" you mentioned above are based in direct cause and effect, while divine fear is a fear of something that has no factual basis, nor a clear cause and effect.

Also, I find the notion of fear as a motivator for life extremely insulting to life, and rather cynical. Would you live a life entirely out of fear of damnation, or would you rather live life because you enjoy it? Would you want to help someone to get points to have tallied later, or because you genuinely want to help someone?

And Jihad simply means struggle in Arabic. When it comes to religious connotations does it mean to struggle against something else and that something else usually means oppressor.

I'm very aware of what Jihad means. Know that I've taken several classes at university on history and religion in Islamic world under a professor that specialized in Islamic cultures. I don't have much more or less issue with Islam versus any other major religion, aside from perhaps its tendency to integrate into governments and dictate laws from a religious manuscript.

 

[Rage Racer]

I'm very aware of what Jihad means. Know that I've taken several classes at university on history and religion in Islamic world under a professor that specialized in Islamic cultures. I don't have much more or less issue with Islam versus any other major religion, aside from perhaps its tendency to integrate into governments and dictate laws from a religious manuscript.

Islam itself doesn't have any problems with other monotheistic religions (anyone beliving in one god is automatically an Allah believer, even if he calls is the god otherwise, because "there's no god but Allah").
BUT, Islam can be interpreted in many different ways, and so-called "mujaheeden" understand "Jihad" as "holy war against infidels" and "conquest of the lands in the name if Islam". This is what I meant in my "you know what to do if they come" post.

 

[Liquid]

(anyone beliving in one god is automatically an Allah believer, even if he calls is the god otherwise, because "there's no god but Allah").

Only true for Abrahamic religions.

 

[SnakeOfBacon]

My view on Islam?
As with all religions I am against it, and I see it as a big problem in the world today (way behind Christianity though).

 

[Eyes Fried Open]

Well, go ahead. What's your view on it?

BOMB THEM. No seriously they just need to stop all the hating on westerners cos there book tells them to. if they cant get along then go with my first 2 words.

 

[zzz_pt]

My view on Islam?
As with all religions I am against it, and I see it as a big problem in the world today (way behind Christianity though).

this

 

[Furinkazen]

My view on Islam?
As with all religions I am against it, and I see it as a big problem in the world today (way behind Christianity though).

this

Care to explain how someones belief is a big problem?

 

[Carbonox]

Care to explain how someones belief is a big problem?

When people no longer keep said belief to themselves... we got severe problems.

 

[Furinkazen]

When people no longer keep said belief to themselves... we got severe problems.

Yes we do. But he is suggesting having the belief in the first place is a problem.

 

[zzz_pt]

Care to explain how someones belief is a big problem?

Not someone's beliefs. Religions are a big problem.

As Hitches used to say,

Name one moral action performed by a believer that could not have been done by a nonbeliever.
Now name one wrong/bad moral action that only a believer could perform. I bet you've already though of (at least) one.

 

[Furinkazen]

Not someone's beliefs. Religions are a big problem.

As Hitches used to say,

Name one moral action performed by a believer that could not have been done by a nonbeliever.
Now name one wrong/bad moral action that only a believer could perform. I bet you've already though of (at least) one.

So are you saying someone cannot do a morally right action with a religion? I know some very strong, very morale people and that is partially because of there religion.

 

[zzz_pt]

So are you saying someone cannot do a morally right action with a religion? I know some very strong, very morale people and that is partially because of there religion.

re-read it please.

 

[Furinkazen]

re-read it please.

Explain your very broad sweeping statements or refine it then please.

 

[zzz_pt]

Explain your very broad sweeping statements or refine it then please.

Basicaly, religion will only do harm to society. I know it's a bold statement.

 

[Furinkazen]

Basicaly, religion will only do harm to society. I know it's a bold statement.

Ok, an author? Creditable? Think not. Considering religion has shaped just about every culture in that case you are saying for 10000's of years that religion has harmed society, be it Christian Normans, Buddhist Japanese, Hindu Indians, or Muslim Arabs?

 

[zzz_pt]

Ok, an author? Creditable? Think not. Considering religion has shaped just about every culture in that case you are saying for 10000's of years that religion has harmed society, be it Christian Normans, Buddhist Japanese, Hindu Indians, or Muslim Arabs?

Did you stop for a second and thouhgt about the questions/challenges?

I think religions were a basic answer for things we did not know a long time ago. Now they're completely useless and I yes, I think they harm society. Where could human species be today if christianity didn't exist? I bet we would be more advanced. Dark Ages was the worse enemy to knowledge.

To religions, Knowledge is a sin, is something bad.

Example: Tree of knowlegde (includes all abrahamic religions).

ps: About Hitchens, you can search and find out if he was credible or not. You'll be surprised with. He was not only an author.

 

[Furinkazen]

Did you stop for a second and thouhg on the questions/challenges?

I think religions were a basic answer for things we did not know. Now they're completely useless and I yes, I think they harm society. Where could human species be today if christianity didn't exist? I bet we would be more advanced. Dark Ages was the worse enemy to knowledge.

To religions, Knowledge is a sin, is something bad.

Example: Tree of knowlegde (includes all abrahamic religions).

Worth noting that the middle east and muslims actually for a while were ahead of the world whilst Europe was in the dark ages. Now was the Dark Ages religiously related? No, fall of the Roman Empire.

 

[zzz_pt]

Worth noting that the middle east and muslims actually for a while were ahead of the world whilst Europe was in the dark ages. Now was the Dark Ages religiously related? No, fall of the Roman Empire.

Islam is going to a Dark Ages today. Look at muslim countries (speacially the most expremists...I'm not talking about turkey).

Yes they were ahead. Because where Chistianity was the main religion, people weren't allowed to be curious. Islam was not the cause of that advance. Societies will rise and advance if those in power allow them. Unfortunatelly the people in power for a long period of time in western countries was the catholic church.

People say very often that the first advances in science were by religious people. Of course. They had the money, the resources and the power. Do you think that Miguelangelo paited the Sistine Chapel because he was a devout christian? I think he did it because those people (the church) had the money. Non religious art, literature, scientific questions and endeavours were banned or despised.

 

[Eyes Fried Open]

Ok, an author? Creditable? Think not. Considering religion has shaped just about every culture in that case you are saying for 10000's of years that religion has harmed society, be it Christian Normans, Buddhist Japanese, Hindu Indians, or Muslim Arabs?

Religion is a big cause of war today and in the past. Christian crusades were pretty much Convert or die. Constant warring in the middle east between Muslims and other religous faction. As @Carbonox said before, the major problem is when they cant keep their believes to themselves.

Also The biggest problem I have with Islam is when they flee their country, go to another then they start up the same religous dribble and start hatebreeding against the same enemies in that said country. I think we should be able to deport them straight away as soon as that starts.

Also I am not racist i hate everybody equally.

 

[sumbrownkid]

@Eyes Fried Open: So would you deport yourself too? You did say everybody, just sayin'...

 

[Eyes Fried Open]

@Eyes Fried Open: So would you deport yourself too? You did say everybody, just sayin'...

If i had too.

 

[SnakeOfBacon]

this

Well, I included that there because Christianity has caused a lot of problems, and has far too strong a hold on western civilisation today, but upon revision Christianity and Islam may be equally big issues with the world today.