Islam - What's your view on it?

[GBO Possum]

@sumbrownkid

That same Qu'ran also says to respect the people of the Torah and Bible, and people in general. Again, like I said above, it came over a period of years and reflected as such. Qu'ran Arabic is also pretty effing hard to translate properly because its written in poetic prose. Meaning like poetry you have to decipher beyond the words at face value.

What you say provides strong hints that the Qu'ran is the work of men, not gods. It's inconsistent, ambiguous, created over a period of years and open to the reader’s interpretation. Does it make sense that it should be this way? Isn’t this a great source for conflict and bloodshed when the rules are so ambiguous? Same can be said of the Christian and Jewish bibles of course

There are thirteen countries in the world where the legal interpretation of the Qu’ran does not agree with yours. In these, my non-belief (and the stated beliefs of non-Muslims) are regarded as so odious that the law says we can be put to death. They are Afghanistan, Iran, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, United Arab Emirates and Yemen. Yes, I take this personally. I will not visit these countries, and I regard people who are brought up from impressionable childhood in such a belief system as being potentially dangerous, even when exposed to civilized values.

Is it a coincidence that every last one of these countries which are prepared to kill people quite legally for their beliefs is a Muslim country? And that the source of Islam, Saudi Arabia, is right up there in the list? I also find it odd, as I said before, that a god needs the help of humans to protect it. I’m on record as saying that it is my opinion, based on actual observations, that there are no gods. Yet none of these gods have killed me, or even dropped around to say hello.

Why are you speaking as if the Qu'ran is making every Muslim out to get you? That's like me saying Uncle Sam is out to get me because of the Patriot Act.

I don’t mistrust every Muslim. And the Patriot Act, while reprehensible, doesn’t command me to kill people.

But people need religion, imo, to identify something with. They also want comfort to know that their deeds will be answered in some form. That their life on this Earth is not the only journey we all go on.

Personally, I identify incredibly strongly with this universe I live in. I’m literally made of stardust, and can’t feel any stronger connection. My substance will, after my death, be used to make other living creatures and non-living stuff. It may be recycled in the longer term through other star deaths. This is awesome! So my view is that we live once, and will not be rewarded in an afterlife for killing people.

 

[sumbrownkid]

That Muhammad was the middle eastern Joseph Smith, only with a lot more ambition. When you go to prayer facing Mecca think for a bit why you are facing that way instead of Jerusalem, as Muhammad used to tell his followers before another "revelation".

They faced Mecca instead of Jerusalem because The Ka'aba, the central box building you see in Mecca, was originally built by Abraham to be as a spiritual house of God. When the local Arabs converted to it being a house of idols is what made Muslims prayed towards Jerusalem. When the revelation came to pray towards Mecca it also came with a footnote to destroy the idols and restore to its original purpose. This revelation came towards the end of the military campaigns between Medina (Muslims) and the Meccans.

 

[KSaiyu]

So it had nothing to do with the fact Muhammad was trying to curry favour with the jews, and when that failed he turned against them telling everyone to suddenly pray towards mecca and that the original qibla towards Jerusalem was just a test?

 

[sumbrownkid]

So it had nothing to do with the fact Muhammad was trying to curry favour with the jews, and when that failed he turned against them telling everyone to suddenly pray towards mecca and that the original qibla towards Jerusalem was just a test?

The Jews of Medina were actually quite hospitable to Muhammad and his companions and Muhammad and others actually regarded Jews with a higher status because they were a learnt and skilled people. But over time the relations started to deteriorate because the wars costed the Jewish tribes much trade. It came to a point that the tribes started to stir trouble in the Muslim camps and other allies to bring a quick victory to the Meccans

The schism between Jews and Muslims came to a bitter start when the Jewish tribes, the very tribes that pledged allegiance to Muhammad and to the rest of Medina, betrayed that allegiance during the siege of Medina when they aided Meccan forces.

Muhammad himself wanted to spare the tribes but the Medinans and others demanded the tribes me punished for their transgressions against the pact they agreed to. The whole qibla thing really had nothing to do with Jews.

 

[ScottPuss20]

Some Islamists are far too extreme in my opinion, but to them it's nothing bad at all-they say that God tells them to do it. Which I find funny because God is the symbol for peace and harmony, right?

 

[Dotini]

One of the most interesting and fascinating things I have learned about Islam is acceptance of the existence of a unique non-human being, known variously as the Djinn, Jinn or "Genie" in the west. This being has no equivalent in the Bible.

The Qu'ran describes the Djinn as (1) non-human, (2) possessing an independent will, (3) a shapeshifter made of smokeless flame, (4) comes from caves or caverns to (5) play tricks on humans.

I have taken it upon myself to learn as much about this being as I reasonably can, and have developed alternative synonyms or definitions for its five key characteristics described above.

(1) non-human = alien, extraterrestrial or preferably ultraterrestrial, i.e., originating on Earth long before humans.
(2) independent will = not a servant of God, angel, devil, man or anyone or anything other than it's own kind.
(3) smokeless flame = plasma, operating variably in visible mode (arc or glow) or invisibly (dark mode, e.g. ionized air).
(4) emerges from caves or caverns = comes from the Earth as opposed to the sky. May originate within the crust or even lower, in the mantle.
(5) Plays tricks on humans = "The Trickster", well known to most cultures under various names and guises. Various names include coyote, fox, raven, Loki, Odin, faery, elf, little people, gremlin and clown. Bigfoot, Ufonaut and UFO also work.

I'm respectfully requesting any Muslims, readers of the Qu'ran and other Islamic literature, to reply with comments, plus or minus.

 

[KSaiyu]

The Jews of Medina were actually quite hospitable to Muhammad and his companions and Muhammad and others actually regarded Jews with a higher status because they were a learnt and skilled people. But over time the relations started to deteriorate because the wars costed the Jewish tribes much trade. It came to a point that the tribes started to stir trouble in the Muslim camps and other allies to bring a quick victory to the Meccans

The schism between Jews and Muslims came to a bitter start when the Jewish tribes, the very tribes that pledged allegiance to Muhammad and to the rest of Medina, betrayed that allegiance during the siege of Medina when they aided Meccan forces.

Muhammad himself wanted to spare the tribes but the Medinans and others demanded the tribes me punished for their transgressions against the pact they agreed to. The whole qibla thing really had nothing to do with Jews.

So the deliverer of the religion of peace took a timeout to listen to the mob under his command?

 

[samurai8juice]

Some Islamists are far too extreme in my opinion, but to them it's nothing bad at all-they say that God tells them to do it. Which I find funny because God is the symbol for peace and harmony, right?

Sure is funny, but what else is funny is that Islamic and Muslim leaders never die(unless by the hand at the enemy)(well they are the ones who don't 'suicide bomb' or 'are in terrorist attacks', but rather the ones who order them), only their followers. I wouldn't say that God tells them to do it, but what I'm saying is Islamic and Muslim leaders brainwash their followers to make them think they are doing something for God, when they are doing something for someone who wants to be as powerful as a god.

 

[sumbrownkid]

So the deliverer of the religion of peace took a timeout to listen to the mob under his command?

Yes, because in this instance they were fighting for their own survival, not just the Muslims, but allied Medinans and other Jews that still held true to their word. A breach in this trust, especially when being besieged is something that is not taken lightly.

@Dotini: You pretty much covered the basis.

Except one. The Devil, or Shaytan as we call him, is actually a Djinn that was the most honorable but was casted out when he refused to acknowledge the supremacy of Adam, the first human. His name is actually Iblis.

Angels in Islam, though very powerful, are still bound to Allah and thus have no free will. Djinns however, like humans, have free will and thus can make decisions for themselves. They too have their own society parallel to ours, and they can either leave us alone or create mischief. Not too sure if they help us. And on the day of Judgement, we are supposed to see them for the first time since they too have to answer for their deeds.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

I have a quick question. I know that a Christian that does not adhere to the faith will burn for all eternity in a lake of fire. What happens if a Muslim does not adhere to the faith?

 

[sumbrownkid]

I have a quick question. I know that a Christian that does not adhere to the faith will burn for all eternity in a lake of fire. What happens if a Muslim does not adhere to the faith?

I don't remember exactly, but I can't imagine it being too nice. Then again, what is considered adhering to the faith is subject to debate.

A Muslim can pray five times a day, reads Qu'ran daily, and then goes and massacres a bunch of innocents. Or a Muslim happens to miss prayers frequently, rarely reads the Qu'ran, and then goes and saves people on a daily basis.

 

[Spurgy 777]

Yes, because in this instance they were fighting for their own survival, not just the Muslims, but allied Medinans and other Jews that still held true to their word. A breach in this trust, especially when being besieged is something that is not taken lightly.

Why were they fighting for their survival? Surely they were just going to an eternal paradise when they died anyway.

As for you example with the two Muslims, if the criteria for getting into heaven is the sane as in Christianity, then both the mass murdered and the guy saving people would go to heaven. (Or more likely hell if one of the other 1000 religions is right )

 

[KSaiyu]

Why were they fighting for their survival? Surely they were just going to an eternal paradise when they died anyway.

The battle of the trench

 

[Spurgy 777]

The battle of the trench

I think you missed my point that, if when you die you go to an eternal paradise, it seems a bit counter-productive to fight for survival, I was just interested in what his answer would be.

 

[dxm8975]

I have a quick question. I know that a Christian that does not adhere to the faith will burn for all eternity in a lake of fire.　

I'm not exactly sure about what befalls to those who actually "didn't" adhere to the faith in the Christian world, but since in a monotheistic religion God is considered to be an "almighty" entity that people can't disobey in any way, the followers that refused to profess God pay for that - as opposed to those believing in a polytheistic religion(just like that in my country) receive a punishment but not drastically by the God.(In Japanese religion there is a number of Gods with their own profits they yield when people in need of their help make a prayer to them, so they can't force people to believe in only one God. Over here people often say "they got what they deserved" when they see something unfortunate happening to those who did a harm to others or did mischievous things that are against humanity or other general rules stipulated by religion, but it's not that God itself scourges them directly.)

What happens if a Muslim does not adhere to the faith?

Muslims have stricter rules/commandments to follow in their daily life than Christians, and for them religion is something special that enables people to make a unity. So I can't imagine the punishments being too favorable, just like those of Christianity, but I reckon they are less likely to actually go against the faith.

 

[KSaiyu]

I think you missed my point that, if when you die you go to an eternal paradise, it seems a bit counter-productive to fight for survival, I was just interested in what his answer would be.

Quoting Joe Budden:
"When guns take the place of the choir, tie up the pastor
If he scared can't believe what he say 'bout the life after"

 

[zzz_pt]

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[GBO Possum]

@zzz_pt - good choice of message.

Here is another one from the Muslim perspective.

 

[zzz_pt]

@GBO Possum I've watched that video some time ago and is... bad.

Funny how every single person in that crowd is male. I wonder how women would answer to those questions (if not opressed or threatened).

 

[sumbrownkid]

Why were they fighting for their survival? Surely they were just going to an eternal paradise when they died anyway.

As for you example with the two Muslims, if the criteria for getting into heaven is the sane as in Christianity, then both the mass murdered and the guy saving people would go to heaven. (Or more likely hell if one of the other 1000 religions is right )

Just because God promises things for those who die in battle doesn't mean you should go rashly into battle. Though it seems like extremists think otherwise.

@zzz_pt I think I saw a couple women in that audience.

And that British guy sounds like an effing idiot. Of all three Abrahamic religions Islam gave women more rights to inheritance and in other matters. The Prophets first wife actually held considerable political power since she was a business woman. Would the Messenger of this so called intolerable religion allow that if Islam was as misogynist as he claims? And children wearing scarves? Scarves are reserved for women of adult or close to adult age. Islam does not mention of children marriages so again this and children wearing scarves is all culture. Hell in rural villages of India children can get married, though it's declining, it's still there. Honor killings is another cultural aspect that is not expressed in the Qu'ran.

People don't understand why Islam seems harsh and it's because it came during an era and location where people were that effed up. I mean during the time of The Prophet it was a norm to bury baby girls alive.

Again this guy is like others and taking Islam from a culture that believes mistreating women is a divine order.

My dad is a good Muslim and he's yet to mistreat my mom. I'm anti-idiot and that guy is one of them along with those people at the conference.

 

[zzz_pt]

@sumbrownkid Where? They don't allow women to sit among men. That wouldn't make sense... They answered they think women should sit separate from them.

Islam gave women what? You must be joking. I won't even argue if your best argument is based on the "prophet's wife". Where did you read that? In the Qu'ran?

"This guy" is speaking the truth wether you like it or not.


I won't accept the "context" argument to these Qu'ran verses:

A husband has sex with his wife, as a plow goes into a field.
The Quran in Sura (Chapter) 2:223 says:

Your women are your fields, so go into your fields whichever way you like . . . . (MAS Abdel Haleem, The Qur’an, Oxford UP, 2004)

Husbands are a degree above their wives.
The Quran in Sura 2:228 says:

. . . Wives have the same rights as the husbands have on them in accordance with the generally known principles. Of course, men are a degree above them in status . . . (Sayyid Abul A’La Maududi, The Meaning of the Qur’an, vol. 1, p. 165)

A male gets a double share of the inheritance over that of a female.
The Quran in Sura 4:11 says:

The share of the male shall be twice that of a female . . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 311)

A woman’s testimony counts half of a man’s testimony.
The Quran in Sura 2:282 says:

And let two men from among you bear witness to all such documents [contracts of loans without interest]. But if two men be not available, there should be one man and two women to bear witness so that if one of the women forgets (anything), the other may remind her. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 205).

A wife may remarry her ex—husband if and only if she marries another man and then this second man divorces her.
The Quran in Sura 2:230 says:

And if the husband divorces his wife (for the third time), she shall not remain his lawful wife after this (absolute) divorce, unless she marries another husband and the second husband divorces her. [In that case] there is no harm if they [the first couple] remarry . . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 165)

Slave—girls are sexual property for their male owners.
The Quran in Sura 4:24 says:

And forbidden to you are wedded wives of other people except those who have fallen in your hands [as prisoners of war] . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 319).

A man may be polygamous with up to four wives.
The Quran in Sura 4:3 says:

And if you be apprehensive that you will not be able to do justice to the orphans, you may marry two or three or four women whom you choose. But if you apprehend that you might not be able to do justice to them, then marry only one wife, or marry those who have fallen in your possession. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 305)

A husband may simply get rid of one of his undesirable wives.
The Quran in Sura 4:129 says:

It is not within your power to be perfectly equitable in your treatment with all your wives, even if you wish to be so; therefore, [in order to satisfy the dictates of Divine Law] do not lean towards one wife so as to leave the other in a state of suspense. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 381)

Husbands may hit their wives even if the husbands merely fear highhandedness in their wives (quite apart from whether they actually are highhanded).
The Quran in Sura 4:34 says:

4:34 . . . If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great. (Haleem, emphasis added)

Mature men are allowed to marry prepubescent girls.
The Quran in Sura 65:1, 4 says:

65:1 O Prophet, when you [and the believers] divorce women, divorce them for their prescribed waiting—period and count the waiting—period accurately . . . 4 And if you are in doubt about those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, (you should know that) their waiting period is three months, and the same applies to those who have not menstruated as yet. As for pregnant women, their period ends when they have delivered their burden. (Maududi, vol. 5, pp. 599 and 617, emphasis added)


http://freethoughtnation.com/what-does-the-koran-say-about-women/What the Qu'ran says about women

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[sumbrownkid]

@sumbrownkid Where? They don't allow women to sit among men. That wouldn't make sense... They answered they think women should sit separate from them.

Well my eyes deceived me then because I mistook a person wearing a red-pinkish scarf that looked...feminine to say the least.

 

[zzz_pt]

@sumbrownkid BTW, I'm glad your dad treats your mom well. I would say that means he's a cultural muslim with western morals. He doesn't follow the Qu'ran to the letter as religious fanatics do and that is a good thing I guess.

 

[sumbrownkid]

@zzz_pt

I would argue the morals that good people have are not Western nor Eastern, but rather humanist/secular.

What people mistake of Christian morals today are actually secularist morals that were developed recently and placed them in religious contexts. Why can't I do the same with Islam?

I mean the Qu'ran starts with "In the name of God, the most merciful, the most benevolent" and I intend to live Islam like that. I know people pick and choose what to follow. Extremist follow his verses of war. I happen to follow his verses of compassion. I just wished more people did.

Life is too short to hate.

And you have to take all those quotes into context whether you like it or not. I'm only going to answer a few of them because I honestly don't have the time look for sources that explain those verses. For inheritance it was because men are to be guardians of women, especially during that time and were the primary providers. In my opinion women today have far more opportunities to support themselves so this is an old aspect that can be ignored, well at least in our modern world. For polygamy, it came after the Battle of the Trench or some other battle I'm not sure, but the Prophet furthered to marry women who became widowed so you can support them. Polygamy is actually practiced in Africa too, and from this one women's study course I took, some of the women actually preferred it because it helped with the burden of household matters. I myself have no opinion on it. For hitting women, the Prophet furthered with only a feather. So basically it's pointless to hit a woman. For slave girls, yes they can be used for sexual purposes, but they also had to be treated with dignity and be given equal status as if they were a wife. Prophet himself though freed slaves so I don't know if he kept few if any.

As for child marriage, I admit I'm wrong as I completely forgot about his last wife Aisha, and she was due to the political arrangements at the time. In the Muslim world child marriages are something of a dying ideal and something that is collecting dust for the most part. The Yemen incident a year or two ago is one of the rare instances. I myself think child marriages are an old tradition that should go away and a part of Islam that should be ignored.

 

[zzz_pt]

@zzz_pt

I would argue the morals that good people have are not Western nor Eastern, but rather humanist/secular.

What people mistake of Christian morals today are actually secularist morals that were developed recently and placed them in religious contexts. Why can't I do the same with Islam?

I mean the Qu'ran starts with "In the name of God, the most merciful, the most benevolent" and I intend to live Islam like that. I know people pick and choose what to follow. Extremist follow his verses of war. I happen to follow his verses of compassion. I just wished more people did.

Life is too short to hate.

And you have to take all those quotes into context whether you like it or not. I'm only going to answer a few of them because I honestly don't have the time look for sources that explain those verses. For inheritance it was because men are to be guardians of women, especially during that time and were the primary providers. For polygamy, it came after the Battle of the Trench or some other battle I'm not sure, but the Prophet furthered to marry women who became widowed so you can support them.

As for child marriage, I admit I'm wrong as I completely forgot about his last wife Aisha, and she was due to the political arrangements at the time. In the Muslim world child marriages are something of a dying ideal and something that is collecting dust for the most part. The Yemen incident a year or two ago is one of the rare instances.

I said western because I assumed you're in USA. And USA, although a lot of people are christian, is a secular country (or it should...lol).

Why do you need that 1st verse of the Qu'ran to live a good life? Why don't you ignore the entire book?
I agreed that life is to short to hate. And you can live a good life without looking at the Qu'ran or any other "holy" book.

The problem with contexts, is that a lot of muslims forget about them. We see muslim men treat women like they were living 1600 years ago. Having sex with a 9yo? Giving instructions how to beat you wife if she doesn't want to have sex with you (rape)? It's pretty similar to christian's instructions on how to treat slaves.

Everything has a context. And the Qu'ran has one as well. If you dismiss the barbaric verses, you should dismiss the entire book. You'll find great greater purpose in your life without it.

I'm speaking as an ex-christian (baptist).

 

[sumbrownkid]

Well @zzz_pt I admit I do ponder sometimes if I'm really Muslim or not, but then I remember what my Islamic teacher told me a long time ago that still endears in me: It doesn't really matter what religion you follow or even if you don't follow one at all, what matters is that if you're a good person then Allah is willing to put you in his favor.

I miss my prayers, I don't do my du'ahs often, I can't recite the Qu'ran properly, nor read it everyday as others, but if I'm willing to help another person change his tire, look out for his or her dog while she's away, or protect them from the ills of the world or from themselves, then surely I'm not a bad Muslim.

To me the best Muslim is one that shows the most humanity.

You're right about contexts and people forget them. I would also say that contexts can also be effed up and that's from my secular side of things. Why should a woman be treated unequally in matters such as inheritances when they too are made of flesh and blood? Indeed why would God, creator of all this, be as trivial to deem such things? It's questions like this that make me question the religion of Islam, but at the same time the actions and sayings of the Prophet help me affirm my belief in it.

 

[SniperRed3]

I went into a Halal Subway and Asked if they had the bacon sub. I honest to god didn't even think that day.
My opinion on Islam is its fine, but western people focus on the extremists too much. In my opinion beleive what you want, but don't kill people over it and this regards all religions because they have all killed in the name of religion.

 

[zzz_pt]

Well @zzz_pt I admit I do ponder sometimes if I'm really Muslim or not, but then I remember what my Islamic teacher told me a long time ago that still endears in me: It doesn't really matter what religion you follow or even if you don't follow one at all, what matters is that if you're a good person then Allah is willing to put you in his favor.

I miss my prayers, I don't do my du'ahs often, I can't recite the Qu'ran properly, nor read it everyday as others, but if I'm willing to help another person change his tire, look out for his or her dog while she's away, or protect them from the ills of the world or from themselves, then surely I'm not a bad Muslim.

To me the best Muslim is one that shows the most humanity.

You're not a bad person. People, in general, do what you are willing to do (some don't, unfortunately) and that's good.

I think what your teacher told you was for a time of childhood. Now you don't need that superstition. I bet you'd do better without it.

The best HUMAN is the one who shows the most humanity.

The best muslim is the one who follows best the Qu'ran. Not a good person in my book.
The best christian is the one who follows best the Bible. Not a good person in my book.
The best...(insert religion)

A moderated muslim who doesn't follow the Qu'ran literally can be a very good person.
The same for christians.

 

[sumbrownkid]

I went into a Halal Subway and Asked if they had the bacon sub. I honest to god didn't even think that day.
My opinion on Islam is its fine, but western people focus on the extremists too much. In my opinion beleive what you want, but don't kill people over it and this regards all religions because they have all killed in the name of religion.

I take it they weren't very amused? Me personally, A muslim is not allowed to consume pork, but nothing should stop him or her selling it to those who do not share the faith. Especially if it happens to be a chain of restaurants that is not religious to begin with.

@zzz_pt

A moderated muslim who doesn't follow the Qu'ran literally can be a very good person.

I think that describes me. 👍

 

[GBO Possum]

If the Q'ran and the Bible are the actual words of their respective gods, then how can anyone be actually following the words of their god by cherry picking the bits they like and ignoring the bits they don't?

<snip>
People don't understand why Islam seems harsh and it's because it came during an era and location where people were that effed up. I mean during the time of The Prophet it was a norm to bury baby girls alive.
<snip>

If Islam, as originally defined, is no longer relevant since it applied only to that "effed up" era and place, then why is it still followed?

Or, maybe a better question is why hasn't your god ever revised Islam to account for change? And why didn't the god provide his words in more than one language?

I'm not being facetious, I just can't comprehend why all the gods are such absentee landlords.