Islam - What's your view on it?

[sumbrownkid]

If the Q'ran and the Bible are the actual words of their respective gods, then how can anyone be actually following the words of their god by cherry picking the bits they like and ignoring the bits they don't?

If Islam, as originally defined, is no longer relevant since it applied only to that "effed up" era and place, then why is it still followed?

Or, maybe a better question is why hasn't your god ever revised Islam to account for change? And why didn't the god provide his words in more than one language?

I'm not being facetious, I just can't comprehend why all the gods are such absentee landlords.

Again these are all questions we can't really get an answer for. Legitimate they are, but answerable I don't know.

Maybe God left religion to us so we can adapt it overtime, or he was that short sighted.

 

[BobK]

And you have to take all those quotes into context whether you like it or not. I'm only going to answer a few of them because I honestly don't have the time look for sources that explain those verses. For inheritance it was because men are to be guardians of women, especially during that time and were the primary providers. In my opinion women today have far more opportunities to support themselves so this is an old aspect that can be ignored, well at least in our modern world. For polygamy, it came after the Battle of the Trench or some other battle I'm not sure, but the Prophet furthered to marry women who became widowed so you can support them. Polygamy is actually practiced in Africa too, and from this one women's study course I took, some of the women actually preferred it because it helped with the burden of household matters. I myself have no opinion on it. For hitting women, the Prophet furthered with only a feather. So basically it's pointless to hit a woman. For slave girls, yes they can be used for sexual purposes, but they also had to be treated with dignity and be given equal status as if they were a wife. Prophet himself though freed slaves so I don't know if he kept few if any.

As for child marriage, I admit I'm wrong as I completely forgot about his last wife Aisha, and she was due to the political arrangements at the time. In the Muslim world child marriages are something of a dying ideal and something that is collecting dust for the most part. The Yemen incident a year or two ago is one of the rare instances. I myself think child marriages are an old tradition that should go away and a part of Islam that should be ignored.

So you're saying it's okay to ignore the parts you don't like? Would that include someone who ignores the injunction against pork, doesn't pray five times a day, and doesn't particularly care which direction to Mecca when he does pray? Would this person still be a good Muslim?

Once you've decided it's okay to ignore parts you choose to, how far can you go with that? Can you ignore 99.9% of the teachings and still be a good Muslim? No? How about 50%?

Oh, and it's okay to own slaves, I see.

 

[GBO Possum]

No wonder religions are out of control when "anything goes". The ability to pick and choose which rules to follow means that any deranged person can not only do what they want, but actually present a justification for their actions. It's this ability to actually justify heinous acts that makes them so dangerous.

As an atheist, I have no excuse for behaving badly. It is totally my responsibility and I can't hide behind any book of ambiguities. So I am guided by my conscience.

 

[zzz_pt]

No wonder religions are out of control when "anything goes". The ability to pick and choose which rules to follow means that any deranged person can not only do what they want, but actually present a justification for their actions. It's this ability to actually justify heinous acts that makes them so dangerous.

As an atheist, I have no excuse for behaving badly. It is totally my responsibility and I can't hide behind any book of ambiguities. So I am guided by my conscience.

And by Law.

 

[sumbrownkid]

So you're saying it's okay to ignore the parts you don't like? Would that include someone who ignores the injunction against pork, doesn't pray five times a day, and doesn't particularly care which direction to Mecca when he does pray? Would this person still be a good Muslim?

Once you've decided it's okay to ignore parts you choose to, how far can you go with that? Can you ignore 99.9% of the teachings and still be a good Muslim? No? How about 50%?

Oh, and it's okay to own slaves, I see.

It's not up to me to decide who's a good Muslim or not, that's god's job. As for slaves well its condoned but you don't see it anymore in the Muslim world today, and in fact illegal in nations like Saudi and others. That's what I mean by some verses being cruel and others being compassionate. Like I alluded to earlier, the Qu'ran is confusing. It allows for slavery, but yet one of the five pillars of Islam, Zakat was used to buy the freedom of slaves.

So it's written like I can/have to choose which aspects I want to follow. Did Allah do this too see how much of a humanist I am? I don't know. How far someone can go with it is something that differs from person to person. I mean our Constitution is ripe example of this.

 

[KSaiyu]

It's not up to me to decide who's a good Muslim or not, that's god's job. As for slaves well its condoned but you don't see it anymore in the Muslim world today, and in fact illegal in nations like Saudi and others. That's what I mean by some verses being cruel and others being compassionate. Like I alluded to earlier, the Qu'ran is confusing. It allows for slavery, but yet one of the five pillars of Islam, Zakat was used to buy the freedom of slaves.

So it's written like I can/have to choose which aspects I want to follow. Did Allah do this too see how much of a humanist I am? I don't know. How far someone can go with it is something that differs from person to person. I mean our Constitution is ripe example of this.

This made me chuckle. Google "legalised slavery". Also could you please tell me the year Saudi Arabia abolished slavery?

 

[sumbrownkid]

This made me chuckle. Google "legalised slavery". Also could you please tell me the year Saudi Arabia abolished slavery?

1962. I didn't know 1962 was today.

If they were really adamant on sticking with the Qu'ran through every word then they wouldn't have done that would they? Even alot of the reforms the current King is doing is riling up the Wahhabist establishment.

 

[KSaiyu]

And the first result for "legalised slavery"? More still - what about the thousands of migrant workers in the Gulf states?

 

[zzz_pt]

A 1st grade Mathemathics book is more precise than the word "of god" (being it the qu'ran, the bible, the torah,etc). You can't argue against a 1st grade mathemathics book.

wouldn't god be smarter and wouldn't he want for us to know without a shadow of a doubt what to do, say, think and how to behave and treat others? If a god is omnipotent he would find a way to do it like we do with our basic mathemathics books.

ps: I knew you would say that: that's god's job. That's the problem. The judge is someone we don't even know if it exists.

about slavery in guld coutries: Slaves of Dubai. It's only one example. Because it's almost impossible to use a camera in those countries where these people are kept.

 

[sumbrownkid]

And the first result for "legalised slavery"? More still - what about the thousands of migrant workers in the Gulf states?

That's where the the mid east has to make right. Those workers are being treated as slaves while they are being under paid severely or not at all. The Qu'ran said that actually enslaved (as in captured in battle) people have to be treated like members of the household and looked after. These people are just being used like work animals and then discarded.

@zzz_pt: Welcome to the question that makes me think hard. Is there really a deity or not?

 

[GBO Possum]

And by Law.

For me, conscience and morality come before legality. If it passes those tests, then, and only then do I truly worry about the Law. I realize that in my country, many will say "if it's legal, then who cares about morality". I don't work that way.

@zzz_pt: Welcome to the question that makes me think hard. Is there really a deity or not?

That's the big question!

We are all born as atheists, and non-scientists. We know nothing of gods and nothing of analytical thinking when we enter this world.

What would happen to religion if our elders FIRST taught us science and critical thinking, and THEN exposed religion to us so that we could use our critical thinking to examine the religion rather than being told to accept things on faith?

Which religion would survive? Would ANY survive?

One of the differences between religion and science is that religion varies by geography. Science is the same no matter where you go. What holds as tested science is the same in all countries. Science that works here also works on the moon, the other planets, the sun and other stars and their planets. No doubt there are exoplanets with life, and some of those life forms may have religion(s). What are the chances that one of their religions actually matches a terrestrial religion with the same holy book(s)? My guess is that it's very different. We have never seen the same religion spring up independently in two places on this little planet, let alone on a planet hundreds, thousands or millions of light years away with non-human life forms!

Whatever they have as a belief system doesn't really matter, since the science we know will apply exactly there as it does here.

And if there IS a deity, then which one is it? Finally, if there is a deity, then where did the thousands of others come from? Did someone make them up? How do you know that the one you believe in is not one of those made up gods unless you find evidence?

 

[zzz_pt]

For me, conscience and morality come before legality. If it passes those tests, then, and only then do I truly worry about the Law. I realize that in my country, many will say "if it's legal, then who cares about morality". I don't work that way.

I've said Law because your moral and conscience can say something is right and Law can say it's not.

For example: Abortion and Eutanasia. My conscious say it's right and moral. Law can say otherwise. And I can't do none of them because I'll end in jail.

Of course our conscious and morals are our first and most important bases for our behaviour in everyday life. 👍

 

[Rallywagon]

I think this lady makes a great point about Islam and Muslims. However, at one point or another, I think all religions have fit this bill as well. Not to mention just society in general. When the majority are apathetic, the minority gets the cheese, so to speak.

 

[SniperRed3]

Brigitte Gabriel is a paranoid, ignorant person. Merica 🤬 yeah person.

In the last 50 years, the United States has promoted, financed and participated in over 200 incursions and 20 separate wars, killing over 8,000,000 people.

1952 - 79, 70,000 Iranians killed. ( Ayatollah Khomeini, US public enemy for the 1980s, was on the CIA payroll while in exile in Paris in 1970s, as were Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden at different times and in different places. )

1954 - 120,000 Guatemalans killed

1954 - 1975, 4,000,000 Vietnamese and Cambodians killed.

1965 - 3,000 Dominican Republicans killed

1965 - 800,000 Indonesians killed

1973 - 30,000 Chileans killed

1975 - 250,000 East Timorese killed

1970s - 1,000,000 Angolans killed

1984 - 30,000 Nicaraguans killed

1980s - 80,000 El Salvadoreans killed

1989 - 8,000 Panamanians killed in an attempt to capture George H. Bush's CIA partner now turned enemy, Manuel Noriega,

1980s - over 700,000 Libyans, Grenadians, Somalians, Haitians, Afghanistanis, Sudanese, Brazilians, Argentineans and Yugoslavians killed,

1991 - over 1,000,000 Iraqis killed, including over 500,000 children -- about which Madeline Albright ( then, Secretary of State ) said "their deaths are worth the cost". While George W. Bush owns over 80% of the oil wells in Kuwait, trouble will continue there.


Americans have killed 8 million people. However, due to cover ups we will never know to true extent.

 

[GBO Possum]

If you are going to beat your wife, then there are some rules.

Read this first - http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Wife_Beating_in_Islam

Then watch this.

 

[SniperRed3]

The Quran as some dodgy ideas as does the bible. But just because a book says something not all believers take it literally. However a minority does and that puts into peoples heads every one does it. We all know that the westboro baptist church hates homosexuals. That doesn't mean that every one who reads the bible are homophobic too.

 

[Touring Mars]

"But beating your wife is only allowed in one circumstance - when she refuses to sleep with you"

And this is called honoring your wife...

 

[Dotini]

"But beating your wife is only allowed in one circumstance - when she refuses to sleep with you"

And this is called honoring your wife...

I'm convinced there is a very substantial number of otherwise intelligent and respectable Westerners who firmly believe that men are superior to women. My cousin Karl is my friend and business partner, so I tactfully avoid arguing with him.

 

[GBO Possum]

The Quran as some dodgy ideas as does the bible. But just because a book says something not all believers take it literally. However a minority does and that puts into peoples heads every one does it. We all know that the westboro baptist church hates homosexuals. That doesn't mean that every one who reads the bible are homophobic too.

How can a book written by "god" have "dodgy ideas"? Who is it that can decide if a god's ideas are dodgy? And decide which ideas are non-dodgy?

If these books contain dodgy ideas, then how come the dodgy ideas haven't been edited out?

If "god" has changed his mind about a definition of acceptable behavior, how come he hasn't told this to humanity as a whole in an unambiguous way?

The Quran as some dodgy ideas as does the bible. But just because a book says something not all believers take it literally. However a minority does and that puts into peoples heads every one does it. We all know that the westboro baptist church hates homosexuals. That doesn't mean that every one who reads the bible are homophobic too.

However, it does mean that they are taught to be homophobic. And taught that wife beating is just fine and a man's right. And taught many more abhorrent things.

 

[SniperRed3]

"If two men, a man and his countryman, are struggling together, and the wife of one comes near to deliver her husband from the hand of the one who is striking him, and puts out her hand and seizes his genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; you shall not show pity Deuteronomy 25:11-12" That looks normal. bet every one was taught that one

You shall not eat of their flesh nor touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you."Leviticus 11:8 This is about pigs
THE 🤬 BANNED BACON

 

[GBO Possum]

@SniperRed3 -exactly!

Just because two religions have teachings which are immoral or archaic doesn't make this justifiable. It makes them both immoral and archaic!

These days we have a view of equality for women and we have refrigeration.

So both religions fail any sort of reasonableness test.

 

[Furinkazen]

How can a book written by "god" have "dodgy ideas"? Who is it that can decide if a god's ideas are dodgy? And decide which ideas are non-dodgy?

If these books contain dodgy ideas, then how come the dodgy ideas haven't been edited out?

If "god" has changed his mind about a definition of acceptable behavior, how come he hasn't told this to humanity as a whole in an unambiguous way?



However, it does mean that they are taught to be homophobic. And taught that wife beating is just fine and a man's right. And taught many more abhorrent things.

"If two men, a man and his countryman, are struggling together, and the wife of one comes near to deliver her husband from the hand of the one who is striking him, and puts out her hand and seizes his genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; you shall not show pity Deuteronomy 25:11-12" That looks normal. bet every one was taught that one

You shall not eat of their flesh nor touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you."Leviticus 11:8 This is about pigs
THE 🤬 BANNED BACON

Consider this though. The Qu'ran and Bible are both what, few thousand years old. What is stated and said thousands of years ago changes over time obviously. The Qu'ran was written at a time when it was socially acceptable to do such a thing. Majority of muslims have moved with the modern world and bypassed that part. There are passages obviously of irrelavance now to most people. Those who still do such things are backwards and living in the past.

And i've said time and time again, this cannot be said for a whole religion.

1 woman beater does not equal a religion full of woman beaters
1 suicide bomber does not equal a religion full of suicide bombers.

Most people can make this differentiation, but especially in this day and age there is a lot of "tarnishing everyone with the same brush".

 

[Spurgy 777]

Consider this though. The Qu'ran and Bible are both what, few thousand years old. What is stated and said thousands of years ago changes over time obviously. The Qu'ran was written at a time when it was socially acceptable to do such a thing. Majority of muslims have moved with the modern world and bypassed that part. There are passages obviously of irrelavance now to most people. Those who still do such things are backwards and living in the past.

And i've said time and time again, this cannot be said for a whole religion.

1 woman beater does not equal a religion full of woman beaters
1 suicide bomber does not equal a religion full of suicide bombers.

Most people can make this differentiation, but especially in this day and age there is a lot of "tarnishing everyone with the same brush".

You forget that the Quran/Bible is meant to be the word of god, it should always be right, it's not a case of some passages no longer being relevant. And because of that, you can't say the people who follow the dodgy parts (bit of an understatement really) are wrong from a religious point of view. And you could also say that the Muslims who are good people, are good because their own sense of morality tells them to ignore the dodgy parts of their religious text, and not because of their religion.

 

[GBO Possum]

Consider this though. The Qu'ran and Bible are both what, few thousand years old. What is stated and said thousands of years ago changes over time obviously. The Qu'ran was written at a time when it was socially acceptable to do such a thing. Majority of muslims have moved with the modern world and bypassed that part. There are passages obviously of irrelavance now to most people. Those who still do such things are backwards and living in the past.
<snip>

Back then, over a thousand years ago, not only was it "acceptable to do such a thing", it was god's word that it was OK. It's there in the Qu'ran.

To the best of my knowledge, the god of the Qu'ran has never issued any revisions to remove this and other vile encouragements. Am I mistaken?

To this day, the Qu'ran of over a thousand years ago is being used to teach Muslims their morality. Muslims are encouraged to memorize every passage of this book. Today. Not just a thousand years ago, but today, with unchanged wording. Every passage, not just those acceptable to civilized people, but all the vile stuff as well.

I ask again, who is it that can override the word of god, and pick and choose which of his words to reject today and which to keep? I would have thought that anyone professing to know better than god would be a blasphemer. Doesn't the Qu'ran say they should be put to death? What are you waiting for?

 

[SniperRed3]

I love how people thing the bible is so perfect. Here is what the Qu'ran has to say about slavery

Feed and clothe the needy. Set a slave free. 5:89

Heres what the bible has to say about slaves

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21)

Religion is just another reason to start a war and kill people. People used it to understand the things we didn't know about, but thanks to science we now understand the universe thus writing religion off completely

 

[KSaiyu]

Who cares about what either book says about slavery. The difference is in the actions of those who follow these faiths.

 

[SniperRed3]

All this religion stuff is so people who need a reason to be decent to someone has a reason to do it. It also works the other way around

 

[Rallywagon]

Brigitte Gabriel is a paranoid, ignorant person. Merica 🤬 yeah person.

In the last 50 years, the United States has promoted, financed and participated in over 200 incursions and 20 separate wars, killing over 8,000,000 people.

1952 - 79, 70,000 Iranians killed. ( Ayatollah Khomeini, US public enemy for the 1980s, was on the CIA payroll while in exile in Paris in 1970s, as were Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden at different times and in different places. )

1954 - 120,000 Guatemalans killed

1954 - 1975, 4,000,000 Vietnamese and Cambodians killed.

1965 - 3,000 Dominican Republicans killed

1965 - 800,000 Indonesians killed

1973 - 30,000 Chileans killed

1975 - 250,000 East Timorese killed

1970s - 1,000,000 Angolans killed

1984 - 30,000 Nicaraguans killed

1980s - 80,000 El Salvadoreans killed

1989 - 8,000 Panamanians killed in an attempt to capture George H. Bush's CIA partner now turned enemy, Manuel Noriega,

1980s - over 700,000 Libyans, Grenadians, Somalians, Haitians, Afghanistanis, Sudanese, Brazilians, Argentineans and Yugoslavians killed,

1991 - over 1,000,000 Iraqis killed, including over 500,000 children -- about which Madeline Albright ( then, Secretary of State ) said "their deaths are worth the cost". While George W. Bush owns over 80% of the oil wells in Kuwait, trouble will continue there.


Americans have killed 8 million people. However, due to cover ups we will never know to true extent.

Wow, nice rant. 8 million? I guess Merika has some catching up to do.
However this hits exactly to the point of that video. A small amount of people are doing some really awful things in the name of something, while the peaceful majority who really represent that something do nothing about it. Religion isn't too far off by calling it's followers sheep.

 

[Rallywagon]

Wow, nice rant. 8 million? I guess Merika has some catching up to do.
However this hits exactly to the point of that video. A small amount of people are doing some really awful things in the name of something, while the peaceful majority who really represent that something do nothing about it. Religion isn't too far off by calling it's followers sheep.

@SniperRed3 , tbh, who cares what it says about slavery compared to the bible. Let's not pick and choose but look at both as a whole. They both are contradictive, and they both demand some pretty heinous crap. Honestly, one is not above the other, unless you follow one, or the other.

 

[SniperRed3]

I'm not saying one is above the other its just the idea of Islam being worse than Christianity. Personally I do nice stuff not because a thousand year old book says that is what I should do. I'm doing it because why not. It's called being civil