Israel - Palestine discussion thread

[F1jocker12]

To anybody worried about the jewish people leaving Israel picture attached, and the refference to "1 miilion jews that left Israel in the last 20 years" - read the second line inside the quotation underneath the picture inside the post #1671 and pay attention to the message

Karasenty said this figure only takes into account individuals born in Israel and, therefore, tends to underestimate the phenomenon.

So 365.0000 Israeli born people live outside Israel... but of course there are the ones born outside Israel, that moved in and afterwards decided to move out.

More than half the Israelis who left the country in recent years were not native born but had immigrated from elsewhere, said Karasenty. That includes many immigrants recognized as Jews, he said, who are part of a growing global community of what he termed “multi-locals” – young adults who move from country to country.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-features/.premium-1.623745

Commentators poor reading, poor thinking, poor logic, poor understanding, poor views, poor focus, poor attitude.... Jews are leaving Israel anyway.

 

[Johnnypenso]

To anybody worried about the jewish people leaving Israel picture attached, and the refference to "1 miilion jews that left Israel in the last 20 years" - read the second line inside the quotation underneath the picture inside the post #1671 and pay attention to the message


So 365.0000 Israeli born people live outside Israel... but of course there are the ones born outside Israel, that moved in and afterwards decided to move out.



http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-features/.premium-1.623745

Commentators poor reading, poor thinking, poor logic, poor understanding, poor views, poor focus, poor attitude.... Jews are leaving Israel anyway.

People are leaving Canada in greater numbers. What does people also leaving Israel prove?

 

[F1jocker12]

During the last Gaza siege, Israel intentionally targeted UN sites used as shelters, United Nations secretary general recently concluded.

Israel was responsible for striking seven United Nations sites used as civilian shelters during the 2014 Gaza war in which 44 Palestinians died and 227 others were injured, an inquiry ordered by UN secretary general Ban Ki-moon has concluded.

Releasing the report on Monday, Ban condemned the attacks “as a matter of the utmost gravity” and said “those who looked to them for protection and who sought and were granted shelter there had their hopes and trust denied”.

Ban insisted that UN locations were “inviolable”.

Ban Ki-moon also mentioned millitand groups putting civilians at risk

in three locations that were not being used as shelters.

He added, however, that: “The three schools at which weaponry was found were empty at the time and were not being used as shelters.”

International humanitarian law – while complex – requires attacking forces in areas where there are non-combatants to protect civilians and adhere to the principle of proportionality, safeguards even more stringent when civilians are under UN protection.

The UN inquiry – separate form an inquiry launched by the UN Human Rights Council – was headed by retired general Patrick Cammaert, a former officer in the Dutch military and included military and legal experts.

The board confirms the use by the IDF of weaponry such as 120 mm high explosive anti-tank projectiles and 155 MM high explosive projectiles on or in the surrounding area of UNRWA schools where civilians had taken refuge. In the incidents investigated at least 44 people were killed and 227 injured including women and children. In none of the schools which were hit directly or in the immediate vicinity, were weapons discovered or fired from.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...rikes-un-schools-ban-ki-moon?CMP=share_btn_tw

And Israel's state of denial is impenetrable.

Was there a war? No one remembers and no one cares. In any healthy society, you would expect such a futile war to be at the centre of an election campaign, just half a year after it took place; that the election campaign would include discussions about the benefits of the war, its damages, the harm it caused Israel’s international standing; questioning whether it was unavoidable, and of course grappling with the necessary ethical questions; debates about the continued siege on Gaza, or the continued boycott of Hamas.

But in Israel of 2015, any such mention is taboo. The war is almost completely absent from nearly all of the parties’ campaigns. There was a war, just as there was summer, and it is no longer.

The 2 state solution is out on the window, and nobody speaks about peace anymore!

Like the war, the continued occupation and its wider meaning are not being discussed at all in this election campaign. No one is suggesting solutions, except for Avigdor Lieberman’s “death penalty for terrorists,” and of course no one is dealing with the fundamental question: Is the two-state solution still attainable and if not, what is the alternative and what do the parties intend to do to achieve it?

This is also a natural and direct continuation of the daily denial and repression - as if, if we do not speak about the occupation and its crimes, it won’t exist. As if, if we don’t speak about the Palestinians and their fate – they won’t exist.

The word “peace” was taken off the agenda a long time ago and together with it, the hope of achieving it. In such a state, it is hard to point out the differences between most of the parties when it comes to diplomacy, since none of them have a clear programme or an established platform.

http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/elections-about-nothing-1449913223
by

Gideon Levy is a Haaretz columnist and a member of the newspaper's editorial board. Levy joined Haaretz in 1982, and spent four years as the newspaper's deputy editor. He was the recipient of the Euro-Med Journalist Prize for 2008; the Leipzig Freedom Prize in 2001; the Israeli Journalists’ Union Prize in 1997; and The Association of Human Rights in Israel Award for 1996. His new book, The Punishment of Gaza, has just been published by Verso.

 

[squadops]

To anybody worried about the jewish people leaving Israel picture attached, and the refference to "1 miilion jews that left Israel in the last 20 years" - read the second line inside the quotation underneath the picture inside the post #1671 and pay attention to the message

I don't think anyone actively reading or participating in this thread is worried about Jews leaving Israel. It's common practice in countries with prosperity and hardly a phenomenon. Young adults who move from country to country, sounds like a privileged lifestyle to me, more so than gypsies or refugees.

What are you suggesting anyway, that their workforce will shrink to the point of economic downfall?

Commentators poor reading, poor thinking, poor logic, poor understanding, poor views, poor focus, poor attitude.... Jews are leaving Israel anyway.

None of that is true except Jews leaving Israel which is not shocking, if Canadians leave Canada in similar or higher numbers per capita I'd say it's no cause for concern(there is nothing not to like there ). I don't think the prevailing reason is political unrest or even fear of security, some people move, some people move around because they can or like to.

I was fooling around the other day and made this one

During the last Gaza siege, Israel intentionally targeted UN sites used as shelters, United Nations secretary general recently concluded.

I don't think anyone is denying or condoning Israel's track record on their lack of concern for collateral damage. Has the U.N. mentioned any sort of punishment?

The 2 state solution is out on the window, and nobody speaks about peace anymore!

Apparently it was determined bringing up Palestinians would not help get elected, so what? In the end Netanyahu felt he had to go the opposite direction than one might expect to win. Since the elections, of course he has back tracked from those statements. Politics as usual. Maybe if those million Jews had only stuck around to vote.

Trailing in opinion polls, Netanyahu took a sharp turn to the right in the final days of the campaign to shore up support among his core nationalistic constituency. He vowed to increase settlement construction in east Jerusalem, the Palestinians' would-be capital, and rejected the idea of a Palestinian state in current conditions - putting him at odds with U.S. and European positions and reversing his own policy of the past six years. In a last-ditch attempt to spur his supporters to the polls Tuesday, he warned that Arab citizens were voting "in droves" and endangering years of rule by his Likud Party. The comments drew accusations of racism from Israeli Arabs and a White House rebuke.

I fully expect to see peace talks again soon, possibly something with some meat to it after the U.S. Presidential elections.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Jimmy Carter is heading over to Gaza to talk to Hamas after being denied access to Bibi. http://www.breitbart.com/national-s...er-to-meet-hamas-militants-in-gaza-this-week/ Israel is still bitter about Carter advocating to remove Hamas from the terror list back when they were indiscriminantly launching rockets at Israeli citizens last year. He'll spend his time trying to unite Hamas and Fatah instead, so presumably they can better coordinate their rocket attacks next time or perhaps build better terror tunnels.

 

[F1jocker12]

Jews leaving Israel. It's common practice in countries with prosperity and hardly a phenomenon.

Hahahahaha
I don't know if you are aware of it, but Israel is like no other country in the entire world.

Although the Israeli government is alarmed at the number of Jews leaving the supposedly "Jewish state", it does not want to highlight the issue in case it encourages others to make the move

Why?

A growing exodus of young Israelis to Berlin has not only shocked Israel’s far right leadership but has highlighted the growing disillusionment with Zionism among Israel’s younger generation.

and

People leaving us were looked upon as deserters, like soldiers running away from their unit during a battle. Yitzhak Rabin called them ‘trash”.

Some of their children were already speaking foreign languages, abandoning Hebrew. Terrible.

and

People do not leave for material reasons only. They may think that they are emigrating because life in Berlin is cheaper than in Tel Aviv, apartments easier to find, salaries higher. But it is not only the strength of the attraction of foreign lands that counts – it is also the strength or weakness of the bond to the homeland.

and

I believe that it is a basic human right to be proud of one’s society, one’s country. People belong to nations. Even in today’s global village, most people need the sense of belonging to a certain place, a certain people. No one wants to be ashamed of them.

Today, when presenting his passport, an Israeli feels no such pride.

This is about jewish pride which is above all things and values. Leaving Israel is a message to their government about setting wrong priorities for Israel's population.
Some very troubled commentator was innocently asking few posts ago, how we do not see anybody leaving Israel. How everybody is so happy inside and accomplished by the only real democracy in the Middle East? Well... Few Google searches later, turns out the reality is quite the opposite.

Some of the commentators believe their ignorance works like an impenetrable shield but personal denial will not change the truth.

Individual paranoia about the entire Middle East threatening the state of Israel will only trigger an antagonistic approach and will fuel more seggregation between individuals from different cultures or with different oppinions. "Peace" means "together", "war" equals "isolation".

Jews are not leaving Israel because of any threats... they are leaving because they are dissapointed. They feel cheated, lied and manipulated. They ackowledge the realities and do not want to participate to the crime anymore.
It is a really sad story.

 

[Blitz24]

Hahahahaha
I don't know if you are aware of it, but Israel is like no other country in the entire world.


Why?

and

and

and


This is about jewish pride which is above all things and values. Leaving Israel is a message to their government about setting wrong priorities for Israel's population.
Some very troubled commentator was innocently asking few posts ago, how we do not see anybody leaving Israel. How everybody is so happy inside and accomplished by the only real democracy in the Middle East? Well... Few Google searches later, turns out the reality is quite the opposite.

Some of the commentators believe their ignorance works like an impenetrable shield but personal denial will not change the truth.

Individual paranoia about the entire Middle East threatening the state of Israel will only trigger an antagonistic approach and will fuel more seggregation between individuals from different cultures or with different oppinions. "Peace" means "together", "war" equals "isolation".

Jews are not leaving Israel because of any threats... they are leaving because they are dissapointed. They feel cheated, lied and manipulated. They ackowledge the realities and do not want to participate to the crime anymore.
It is a really sad story.

So the reality is that the Jewish people should not have their own state, in your opinion. If they cede all of the lands to Palestine but retain rights to access the Western Wall would that be okay for you? Or do, in your words "the poison of Zionism" prevent them from having any claim to the land?

 

[Johnnypenso]

Hahahahaha
I don't know if you are aware of it, but Israel is like no other country in the entire world.


Why?

and

and

and


This is about jewish pride which is above all things and values. Leaving Israel is a message to their government about setting wrong priorities for Israel's population.
Some very troubled commentator was innocently asking few posts ago, how we do not see anybody leaving Israel. How everybody is so happy inside and accomplished by the only real democracy in the Middle East? Well... Few Google searches later, turns out the reality is quite the opposite.

Some of the commentators believe their ignorance works like an impenetrable shield but personal denial will not change the truth.

Individual paranoia about the entire Middle East threatening the state of Israel will only trigger an antagonistic approach and will fuel more seggregation between individuals from different cultures or with different oppinions. "Peace" means "together", "war" equals "isolation".

Jews are not leaving Israel because of any threats... they are leaving because they are dissapointed. They feel cheated, lied and manipulated. They ackowledge the realities and do not want to participate to the crime anymore.
It is a really sad story.

You know what's more sad? You completely ignoring the fact that people leave countries for their own reasons and assigning your own personal bias to anyone leaving that country. Canadians are living abroad in far greater numbers than Israeli's. Does that mean it's because they disagree with the government and the direction of the country? Or are you going to continuue to ignore many of the arguments that disagree with your own?

 

[Sanji Himura]

You know what's more sad? You completely ignoring the fact that people leave countries for their own reasons and assigning your own personal bias to anyone leaving that country. Canadians are living abroad in far greater numbers than Israeli's. Does that mean it's because they disagree with the government and the direction of the country? Or are you going to continuue to ignore many of the arguments that disagree with your own?

I think that he is done. Part of having a serious discussion is actually listening to the other side, something that he doesn't have a clear grasp of across multiple threads. That is why I am trying to stay out of all Israel discussion for the time being.

 

[F1jocker12]

So the reality is that the Jewish people should not have their own state, in your opinion. If they cede all of the lands to Palestine but retain rights to access the Western Wall would that be okay for you? Or do, in your words "the poison of Zionism" prevent them from having any claim to the land?

I remember how your comment about Holocaust being a religion got my attention in the first place. So you do not understand much of this Middle East mess anyway. Now, you sound like you don't do well with your memory as well, because I've already mentioned (in my comment #1622) my position on the issue.

Zionism is poison and criminal. Wow, you'll say.... How come?... Let's listen to the jews themselves...

Here are two replies given by Leaders of the Zionists during World War II, when they were asked for money to help ransom Jews from the Nazis. Greenbaum said "One cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Poland." (G-d forbid).
Weitzman said, "The most important part of the Jewish people is already in the land (of Israel) and those who are left, are unimportant" (May we be spared).

and

The Zionist State persecute all Jews who are loyal to their Faith

and

They start wars that endanger the Jewish People, for the sake of their own political interests.

and

They make it look like all Jewry and their rabbis are Zionists, but this is false propaganda.

Your passive aggresive comment doesn't impress me at all, and I expect you to ask me again about my opinion after... 60 comments... like I sound like someone who changes his views here.

Please stop running in circles, and if you want to contribute to the thread, post something new. Anything on the topic. Good luck!

 

[Tornado]

I'd think you'd need to first actually express an opinion before anyone could accuse you of flip flopping on an issue.


Though since that is likely what Blitz24 would call "the point", it would be unsurprising if you missed it.

 

[squadops]

Hahahahaha
I don't know if you are aware of it, but Israel is like no other country in the entire world.

Every country has uniqueness and also similarity, anyway...


I think it's important for us to take a look at who some of your quotes are coming from, his name is Uri Avnery and google will give plenty of information about him and what he stands for. When I read this I just had to quote it.

Who Is the Ruler of Israel? Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu, of course. Wrong

The real ruler of Israel is one Sheldon Adelson, 81, American Jew, Casino king, who was rated as the world’s tenth richest person, worth 37.2 billion dollars at the latest count. But who is counting?

Besides his casinos in Las Vegas, Pennsylvania, Macao and Singapore, he owns the U.S. Republican party and, lately, both Houses of the U.S. Congress.

He also owns Binyamin Netanyahu.

http://original.antiwar.com/avnery/2015/02/15/who-is-the-ruler-of-israel/

Here is the full text of the piece you have been quoting. I've added a bit more to each one so the context is kept in tact.

Before the founding of our state and during its first few decades, we saw ourselves as a heroic society, struggling against great odds, fighting several wars. People leaving us were looked upon as deserters, like soldiers running away from their unit during a battle. Yitzhak Rabin called them ‘trash”.

That is hardly an accurate description of what Israel is facing today.

What made the TV story so frightening was that it showed ordinary middle-class young Israeli families settling for good in Berlin, London and New Jersey. Some of their children were already speaking foreign languages, abandoning Hebrew. Terrible.

Until lately, “descending” was mostly attributed to misfits, lower-class people and others who could not find their place in ordinary society. But here were normal, well-educated young couples, Israeli-born, speaking good Hebrew. Their general complaint – sounding rather like an apology – was that they could not “end the month” in Israel, that their middle-class salaries did not suffice for a decent living, because salaries are too low and prices too high. They singled out the prices of apartments. The price of an apartment in Tel Aviv is equivalent to 120 months' average middle class income.

However, sober research showed that emigration has actually decreased during the last few years. Polls show that the majority of Israelis, including even a majority of Arab citizens, are satisfied with their economic situation – more than in most European nations.

First off his point is there is no reason for hysteria in the Jewish media. Just as I expected and already pointed out, these are well off people searching out greener pastures. Yes they are well off, pointing out a high cost of living does not make them uneducated, unemployable, or poor. Oh what is this, the emigration is decreasing.

People do not leave for material reasons only. They may think that they are emigrating because life in Berlin is cheaper than in Tel Aviv, apartments easier to find, salaries higher. But it is not only the strength of the attraction of foreign lands that counts – it is also the strength or weakness of the bond to the homeland.

This is nothing more than conjecture. They don't know why they do what they do? lol. He makes a few good points though so I'll quote a couple.

THE SECOND reason for hysteria was the award of the Nobel Prize to two American Chemistry professors who were educated in Israel, one of them born in a Kibbutz.

Yet here were these two scholars who left Israel decades ago to graze in foreign meadows, continuing their research in prestigious American universities.

Actually, this is not a specifically Israeli problem. Brain-flight is taking place all over the world. An ambitious scientist longs for the best of laboratories, the most prestigious university. Young minds from all over the world flock to the US. Israelis are no exception.
We have good universities. Three of them figure somewhere on the list of the world’s hundred best. But who can resist the temptations of Harvard or MIT?

Yeah, so read the article again and try to separate his opinion from the facts. You didn't answer my questions btw so I'll ask them again.

What are you suggesting anyway, that their workforce will shrink to the point of economic downfall?

Has the U.N. mentioned any sort of punishment?

Here is one of his articles I think you will really enjoy if you've not seen it.
http://original.antiwar.com/avnery/2015/04/19/there-are-still-judges/

 

[F1jocker12]

I think it's important for us to take a look at who some of your quotes are coming from,

Actually my link to the same text was posted inside my comment #1671
http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/10/18/why-are-so-many-jews-leaving-israel/
At the end states

URI AVNERY is an Israeli writer and peace activist with Gush Shalom. He is a contributor to CounterPunch’s book The Politics of Anti-Semitism.

If you have the chance to ask an Israeli official about immigration OUT of Israel, don't do it. It will make him change the subject, it will make him angry, and it will make him accuse you of anti-semitism as a (of course) Holocaust denier. [whisper] They don't want to speak about that.

What are you suggesting anyway, that their workforce will shrink to the point of economic downfall?

You are chasing ghosts.... Wherever those people go, they will tell their stories to other people, jews and not jews, so the listeners will understand the situation from former citizens that decided not to be complicit anymore. That tragedy only has an impact at the individual level, because at the state level nobody will complain of any funds shortages.

Has the U.N. mentioned any sort of punishment?

What for? Immigration out of Israel, or what?

Every country has uniqueness and also similarity, anyway...

Hahahahahaha - denial my friend.
Israel was created on the concept of "the home for the refugees", "home for the homeless" and "home for the rejected"... Having people leaving "the shelter" because of the shelter rulers abuses is bad. The message is - That is not a shelter, and the authorities are not good people. They are criminals in disguise, like pedophiles giving children candies I should say.

 

[Blitz24]

This is getting to be obscene. Israel is a land of criminals and is oppressing the Palestinians. If we don't agree with that we are wrong. That is your opinion. Now we have your opinion. Good.

 

[TenEightyOne]

If you have the chance to ask an Israeli official about immigration OUT of Israel, don't do it. It will make him change the subject, it will make him angry, and it will make him accuse you of anti-semitism as a (of course) Holocaust denier. [whisper] They don't want to speak about that.

Loaded. Source required.

You are chasing ghosts.... Wherever those people go, they will tell their stories to other people, jews and not jews, so the listeners will understand the situation from former citizens that decided not to be complicit anymore. That tragedy only has an impact at the individual level, because at the state level nobody will complain of any funds shortages.

And their free speech and ability to communicate is stultified or eradicated while they're within Israel?

Israel was created on the concept of "the home for the refugees", "home for the homeless" and "home for the rejected"... Having people leaving "the shelter" because of the shelter rulers abuses is bad. The message is - That is not a shelter, and the authorities are not good people. They are criminals in disguise, like pedophiles giving children candies I should say.

Your figures for the new exodus seemed a little overegged, I daresay the remainder of your reasoning may be too.

 

[squadops]

What for? Immigration out of Israel, or what?

During the last Gaza siege, Israel intentionally targeted UN sites used as shelters, United Nations secretary general recently concluded.

Hahahahahaha - denial my friend.
Israel was created on the concept of "the home for the refugees", "home for the homeless" and "home for the rejected"... Having people leaving "the shelter" because of the shelter rulers abuses is bad. The message is - That is not a shelter, and the authorities are not good people. They are criminals in disguise, like pedophiles giving children candies I should say.

Hmm...

Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

 

[Johnnypenso]

I remember how your comment about Holocaust being a religion got my attention in the first place. So you do not understand much of this Middle East mess anyway. Now, you sound like you don't do well with your memory as well, because I've already mentioned (in my comment #1622) my position on the issue.

Zionism is poison and criminal. Wow, you'll say.... How come?... Let's listen to the jews themselves...

and

and

and


Your passive aggresive comment doesn't impress me at all, and I expect you to ask me again about my opinion after... 60 comments... like I sound like someone who changes his views here.

Please stop running in circles, and if you want to contribute to the thread, post something new. Anything on the topic. Good luck!

Already discussed this. This is not the opinion of "jews", it's the opinion of "some jews"...big difference. Do you understand the distinction?

You lecturing about passive agressiveness is quite amusing, given that you are passive agressive in many of your posts yourself

Hahahahahaha - denial my friend.
Israel was created on the concept of "the home for the refugees", "home for the homeless" and "home for the rejected"... Having people leaving "the shelter" because of the shelter rulers abuses is bad. The message is - That is not a shelter, and the authorities are not good people. They are criminals in disguise, like pedophiles giving children candies I should say.

Again, people are not leaving in any greater numbers than in other western democracies. There is no grand conspiracy here. There's no law requiring Jews that move to Israel to remain in Israel forever. Your continued refusal to see this leads me to think you are simply a troll, completely unwilling to acknowledge any points other than your own.

Your analogy of Israel's leaders being like pedophiles is a bit over the top don't you think, even for you?

 

[F1jocker12]

This is getting to be obscene. Israel is a land of criminals and is oppressing the Palestinians. If we don't agree with that we are wrong. That is your opinion. Now we have your opinion. Good.

You are still moving in circles.... already mentioned

squadops said
other than your persistence to blame everything on the Jews.

F1jocker12 said
????
Actually... Scroll up to my comment #1622 - most of the Jews living in Israel want PEACE, because the Palestinians will be their eternal neighbour.
Your mind is blocking what I say because you keep hearing only what you want to hear...
Now follow my finger please...It is NOT the Jews, it is the Israeli government to blame... BIG difference.

Loaded. Source required.

You've missed the last part

[whisper] They don't want to speak about that.

Go to the Israel embassy or call an Israeli goverment official, ask about the emigration out of Israel and you will actually become the source. The reality is nobody emphasize about emigration out of Israel and you will need to mentally switch in order to discover it. It is simply a "door" which nobody knocks at, and subsequently, nobody knows what's behind it.

And their free speech and ability to communicate is stultified or eradicated while they're within Israel?

Their speach inside Israel doesn't matter too much. The moment they move out you have a red flag. Those people have no reason to lie either.
Pedophiles are not impressed by their victims tears...

I daresay the remainder of your reasoning may be too.

Hahahaha... Fluctuations are not the issue here... More or less people leaving Israel, it is still only a one way ticket.

The emigration phenomenon here was once branded ‘a fallout of cowards’ [by Yitzhak Rabin], but these days the people who are leaving are talented. They stand out abroad. They are considered smart and successful compared to the Canadians. Many don’t come back.”

According to the State of the Nation Report for 2011-2012, published last month by the Taub Center for Social Policy Studies in Israel, the situation of the country’s young working families has worsened in the past five years (not taking into account Arab and Jewish ultra-Orthodox families, whose situation has been even more aggravated).

Do you know what hurts the most?

Israel follows the pattern of other developed countries: the higher the education level, the greater the likelihood of migration. Holders of doctorates are more likely to leave than people with high school or lower education.

Anyway

According to Hermann, emigration from Israel is still not perceived as a success story. “It’s true that there is less criticism of those who leave. No one will speak of ‘a fallout of cowards’ any longer, but most [leaving] lead a middling life. They do not feel pride in their success and instead feel a need to apologize.”

Reasons to leave Israel?

That the Israeli middle class -- of which I see myself a part -- faces two stumbling blocks: one is the difficulty of being unable to do well economically, due to an uncompetitive, cartel-driven market; and the other is a lack of hope.
Politically, the discourse is one of despair. It’s a fanatic, illiberal discourse. An educated secular individual in his thirties, who is part of the smart, successful Internet industry in Israel, understands that this same route makes it possible for him to leave Israel.”

http://www.haaretz.com/news/feature...s-are-thinking-of-emigrating.premium-1.484945

 

[squadops]

Bye, the beloved country-why almost 40 percent of the Israelis are thinking of emigrating.


The same, already tired out of context quote from 80 years ago, followed by a mothers admiration of her sons who are living in Canada.

The emigration phenomenon here was once branded ‘a fallout of cowards’ [by Yitzhak Rabin], but these days the people who are leaving are talented. They stand out abroad. They are considered smart and successful compared to the Canadians. Many don’t come back.”

40% percent rapidly changes to 37% and then the reality of the poll is revealed... 2%, wow 2%, I'm trying to let that sink in. What is important though is that we do not ignore what is fantasy, because feelings trump reality.

The survey found that 37 percent of Israelis are considering a move to a different country at some time in the future. At the same time, it’s noteworthy than only 2 percent of those surveyed said they are certain they will leave Israel -- it’s only a matter of time.

The primary reason the potential emigrants cite is the difficulty of getting ahead economically in Israel -- cited by 55 percent of those considering emigration. Raz terms this notion a “fantasy.” “We want to think we have a way out of here, but only 2 percent really intend to leave,” he explains.

Fantasy or reality, the fact cannot be ignored that many Israelis want, at some level, to live elsewhere. The tendency to consider leaving is most prominent among voters for center and left-of-center parties; the 30-49 age group; secular, salaried individuals; as well as among inhabitants of the south of the country and the Greater Tel Aviv area.

Maybe all they need is to mend relations with Obama.

Lack of hope

Mass departures to follow, along with defectors speaking the depressing truth around the globe.

 

[Tornado]

This is getting to be obscene. Israel is a land of criminals and is oppressing the Palestinians. If we don't agree with that we are wrong. That is your opinion. Now we have your opinion. Good.

If only we could get him to answer who owned the "Palestinian" land before Israel took it, we'd be good.

 

[Blitz24]

If only we could get him to answer who owned the "Palestinian" land before Israel took it, we'd be good.

Jordan? No wait, that's too hard to answer. Can we give it back to the Ottomans?

 

[Sanji Himura]

May I take Common Sense History for $200, Alex?

 

[KSaiyu]

Got to be honest, it's uncomfortable when medical journals are pulled up for discussing the conflict:

Lancet medical journal under attack for 'extremist hate propaganda' over its coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...the-israelipalestinian-conflict-10199892.html

 

[Vegard]

Reminds me of the quote:

"In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act".

 

[F1jocker12]

Speaking about truth and education (strong relation between the two) I am quite surprised nobody already picked Golda Meir's (Israel's Prime Minister between 1969 and 1974) words about peace with the Arabs. Her famous quote is

Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.

According to Wikiquote, she said that at the National Press Club in Washington D.C. in 1957. Later on, she was missquoted by the Anti-Defamaition League in an advertisment ran by the Hollywood Reporter - "We can forgive [them] for killing our children. We cannot forgive them from forcing us to kill their children. We will only have peace with [them] when they love their children more than they hate us."

I have to admit how interesting this formulation is, because it misleading any ignorant into instantly assuming how offensive and brutal Arab education is when it comes to basic human values. Essentially, Meir is assuming how the Arab parents personal struggle it is fundamentally igniting and supporting hate over love.

Most of the Israeli officials like to use Golda's words misquoting her into something like "We will only have peace when our enemies love their children more than they hate ours.” (http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ael-gaza-reconstruction-ignorance-palestinian)
which leads most of the journalists into asking Palestinian representatives - "don’t you think it would all be fine if you just stopped teaching your children to hate?”.

Well... I admired people's love for poems around here, that's why I will offer you the beautiful answer to that question in a similar form.

Here you have "We teach life, sir!"



and "Coexistence"



Also learn about the "curious" case of a "The Guardian' journalist who was told to... "steer clear of Palestine".
Story - How The Guardian told me to steer clear of Palestine

 

[Johnnypenso]

Speaking about truth and education (strong relation between the two) I am quite surprised nobody already picked Golda Meir's (Israel's Prime Minister between 1969 and 1974) words about peace with the Arabs. Her famous quote is

Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hateus.

According to Wikiquote, she said that at the National Press Club in Washington D.C. in 1957. Later on, she was missquoted by the Anti-Defamaition League in an advertisment ran by the Hollywood Reporter - "We can forgive [them] for killing our children. We cannot forgive them from forcing us to kill their children. We will only have peace with [them] when they love their children more than they hate us."

I have to admit how interesting this formulation is, because it misleading any ignorant into instantly assuming how offensive and brutal Arab education is when it comes to basic human values. Essentially, Meir is assuming how the Arab parents personal struggle it is fundamentally igniting and supporting hate over love.

Other Golda Meir Quotes:

There were no such thing as Palestinians

We don’t thrive on military acts. We do them because we have to, and thank God we are efficient.

My interpretation of her quote is different. I don't think it's a comment on Arab education, but more of a comment that they are so consumed by their hatred of Jews, that they are willing to sacrifice their children to kill Jews and that when they love their children more than they hate Jews, they will look to the future and seek peace.

Also, do you have a link to some evidence of the "misquote" and what is the proper translation of her words, if they weren't spoken in English?. Full context please.

 

[F1jocker12]

Also, do you have a link to some evidence of the "misquote" and what is the proper translation of her words, if they weren't spoken in English?. Full context please.

Click on Wikiquote link provided inside the comment
There you'll find

Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.

• Statement to the National Press Club in Washington, D. C. in 1957, as quoted in A Land of Our Own : An Oral Autobiography (1973) edited by Marie Syrkin, p. 242

Misquoted - Third bullet under Variants

• We can forgive [them] for killing our children. We cannot forgive them from forcing us to kill their children. We will only have peace with [them] when they love their children more than they hate us.
  • As attributed in an Anti-Defamation League advertisement that ran in the Hollywood Reporter. Ali Abunimah's blog, electronicIntifada.net, 25 August 2014

The Hollywood Reporter Ad - August 19th 2014
Hollywood Executives Condemn 'Hamas Terrorists' in ADL Ad


Wallace Shawn on Gaza: "The Anger of the Palestinians Cannot Be Ended by Killing Their Children"

My quick personal translation of this would be: "When we kill the children of Arabs, the Arabs made us do it. They hate us so much, they are so angry, that they do things that enrage us and make us kill children. If they were decent people who loved their children, they would set aside their hatred and stop provoking us, and we would then stop killing the children."

In this case, I can only say that despite her wise and thoughtful and grandmotherly face, Golda Meir can be interpreted as saying here that she plans to kill the children of Arabs up until the moment when, in her sole judgment, the Arabs stop feeling "hate" and become sufficiently unprovoking and pacified.

And yet the fact is that in my own lifetime (I was born in 1943) the Palestinian people have been expelled from their land and subjected to unceasing and unjustifiable torment, including a brutal occupation and, in Gaza, a regime in which an entire population has been placed on a starvation diet.

Anyone who learns more about what has happened can't help but realize that the anger of the Palestinians cannot be ended by killing their children. That is a fantasy. Human beings simply aren't made that way

Translation ? - again

Statement to the National Press Club in Washington, D. C. in 1957

 

[Johnnypenso]

Click on Wikiquote link provided inside the comment
There you'll find


Misquoted - Third bullet under Variants


The Hollywood Reporter Ad - August 19th 2014
Hollywood Executives Condemn 'Hamas Terrorists' in ADL Ad


Wallace Shawn on Gaza: "The Anger of the Palestinians Cannot Be Ended by Killing Their Children"



Translation ? - again

Sorry I don't see any misquote here. What I see is a Hollywood actor's interpretation of what here words mean, posted by an internet blogger.

It was in English, but its meaning was not immediately obvious at all, so I felt an overwhelming impulse to translate it.

Seems pretty clear to me that he's interpreting the words to mean something other than what they mean if taken at face value. That's not a misquote, that him trying to read between the lines and apply some hidden meaning to the words.

 

[Blitz24]

Sorry I don't see any misquote here. What I see is an alternate translation by an internet blogger.

Was the statement in Hebrew? I don't see any misquote either, I see it as someone changing the meaning in order to solidify their belief. A revisionist's history, if you will.

 

[F1jocker12]

misquote - "quote (a person or a piece of written or spoken text) inaccurately."

Golda Meir's initial statement in 1957 in english at the National Press Club in Washington D.C.

Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.

Innacurate quotes -

Peace will come to the Middle East when the Arabs love their children more than they hate us.(As quoted in Media Bias and the Middle East (2003) by Paul Carlson, p. 10)

Peace will come when the Arabs start to love their children more than they hate us.(As quoted in The Agony of the Promised Land (2004) by Joshua Levy, Ch. 23 "The Hope for Peace", p. 187)

We can forgive [them] for killing our children. We cannot forgive them from forcing us to kill their children. We will only have peace with [them] when they love their children more than they hate us.(As attributed in an Anti-Defamation League advertisement that ran in the Hollywood Reporter. Ali Abunimah's blog, electronicIntifada.net, 25 August 20)

The rest of it is actually the AD from The Hollywood reporter, the actors and writers article was the way I got to the AD, gives an interpretation to the misquote(the place where ElectronicIntifada - Ali Abunimah's blog sends you to).

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