Israel - Palestine discussion thread

[Tornado]

This is now like a GT6 forum thread.

 

[Scaff]

This thread is heading far too close to personal attacks and playing the man rather than the ball.

Argue the point please, not each other.

 

[TenEightyOne]

But let's see what Mahatma Ghandi had to say about it:

Well, the main bit you missed in your quote-mining was this;

Let the Jews who claim to be the chosen race prove their title by choosing the way of non-violence for vindicating their position on earth. Every country is their home, including Palestine, not by aggression but by loving service.

And, from the letter source that Finkelstein quote-mined, we see exactly when violence is non-violence in Gandhi's eyes...

You must not take what I say so terribly literally. If ten soldiers resist a force of a thousand soldiers armed cap-a-pie, the former are almost non-violent, because there is no capacity for anything like proportionate violence in them. But the instance I have taken of the girl is more appropriate. A girl, who attacks her assailant with her nails, if she has grown them, or with her teeth, if she has them, is almost non-violent, because there is no premeditated violence in her. Her violence is the violence of the mouse against the cat. Yes, God alone is the final judge. It is likely that what we believe to be an act of ahimsa is an act of himsa in the eyes of God. But for us the path is chalked out. And then you must know that a true practice of ahimsa means also in one who practises it the keenest intelligence and wide-awake conscience. It is difficult for him to err. When I used those words for Poland, and when I suggested to a girl believing herself to be helpless that she might use her nails and teeth without being guilty of violence, you must understand the meaning at the back of my mind. There is the refusal to bend before overwhelming might in the full knowledge that it means certain death. The Poles knew that they would be crushed to atoms, and yet they resisted the German hordes. That was why I called it almost non-violence.

 

[Johnnypenso]

GTP forum is quiet... waiting for the play to unfold... my answer? (#1645)
@killerjimbag
If you know where his remains are, next time you go there to honor your granpa's memory, bring him a flower from GTP members. We owe him respect!
Israels crimes have nothing to do with that tragedy though. They are only hijacking that crime, to cover a similar crime they are comitting today in the Occupied Territories

Show me other GTP member that reacted the same way in a similar situation my friend.

All due respect to @killerjimbag , but you gave him a couple of sentences of faux sincerity and then immediately, within 2 sentences, spun right back into your Israel hatred. And you want respect for that? Please.

 

[killerjimbag]

All due respect to @killerjimbag , but you gave him a couple of sentences of faux sincerity and then immediately, within 2 sentences, spun right back into your Israel hatred. And you want respect for that? Please.

Johnny he is looking to pad his post count. He has no clue as to what atrocities occurred due to race,color, creed and hatred of fellow human beings IMHO. The best thing is to ignore him and he goes away,another freedom we have here.

 

[Blitz24]

Johnny he is looking to pad his post count. He has no clue as to what atrocities occurred due to race,color, creed and hatred of fellow human beings IMHO. The best thing is to ignore him and he goes away,another freedom we have here.

Agreed. It's a shame the poor taste some people have.

 

[F1jocker12]

I will stay 100% by what Gandhi says.

There is the refusal to bend before overwhelming might in the full knowledge that it means certain death. The Poles knew that they would be crushed to atoms, and yet they resisted the German hordes. That was why I called it almost non-violence.

How do you think those Palestinians are feeling while Israeli torrential bombing is leveling their houses and neighbourhoods.

 

[F1jocker12]

And the boycott is expanding

Student Representative Councils at five South African universities have released a joint statement acknowledging their support for the academic and cultural boycott of Israel, Live Times reported on Monday. The statement was released in a press conference held in the Miriam Makeba Hall at the University of South Africa.

"This day will go down in history as we announce the resolutions adopted by our university Student Representative Councils (SRCs) to join the academic and cultural boycott of Israel," the statement read. The SRCs said that they are also committed to the South African Union of Students pledge which was declared in August 2011 that all South African campuses must be apartheid-Israel free zones.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/n...-universities-join-academic-boycott-of-israel

 

[Blitz24]

Have you now decided if you will answer any of the questions? Or are you still insistent on posting tons of propaganda links because you feel like it?

 

[squadops]

First off, most of SA's imports are agricultural and...

This means most South African imports of Israeli goods are for use by South African companies producing South African goods.

Even BDS spokesperson Muhammed Desai admits...

Ultimately, South Africa’s trade with Israel makes a very small contribution to the Israeli economy

http://www.news24.com/Archives/City-Press/SA-trade-with-Israel-mainly-agricultural-20150430

And the majority of it is not even consumer goods. More whoop de doo over nothing. And "This day will go down in history"? No lol.


Israel’s deputy ambassador in South Africa, Michael Freeman's humor on the mater.

If BDS wants to boycott Israel, it should abandon tomatoes

The truth is, the types of goods these students will boycott are few and far between, as long as they feel better though.

 

[Johnnypenso]

And the boycott is expanding

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/n...-universities-join-academic-boycott-of-israel

When they start boycotting Middle Eastern oil I'll start paying attention. Until then it's just stuff and nonsense.

 

[F1jocker12]

Israel's mighty IDF might get an "honorary" place by ISIL and Al-Qaeda on the list of shame.
Fun, fun, fun...

A senior UN source, who wished to remain anonymous because of the diplomatically sensitive nature of any announcement, told Middle East Eye that Ban’s chief advisers had recommended that the Israeli army be identified as a serious violator of children’s rights.

That would place it, for the first time, alongside groups like Islamic State, the Taliban and al-Qaeda-affiliated groups, pushing Israel further towards international isolation.

Israel tries to intimidate the United Nations...

Despite Israel’s intervention, said the UN source, agency officials in Jerusalem and Ban’s advisers in New York had decided the evidence against Israel was compelling.

“After all, the US pays a large slice of the UN’s budget, so UN officials cannot afford to ignore the administration’s wishes. If UN officials want to help children in Africa and Iraq, they have to ask themselves whether it is worth risking it all for a fight over Israel.”

“There is a lot of anger in Europe and the US towards the Israeli government, especially after [Israeli prime minister] Benjamin Netanyahu publicly declared during the recent election campaign that he would not allow the creation of a Palestinian state,”

And these are the violations

Six grave violations have been identified that qualify a party to a conflict for inclusion on the list. They are: killing and maiming children, abductions, sexual attacks, attacks on schools and hospitals, the denial of humanitarian access, and the recruitment of children as soldiers.

44% of Gaza's population is under 14.

Gaza is a society of children [figures show 44 per cent of the population are under 14] so it is inevitable that they pay the heaviest price for Israeli impunity.

This week, a group of IDF reservists told how IDF is indiscriminately targeting civilians.

A staff sergeant was quoted saying: “The instructions are to shoot right away. Whoever you spot – be they armed or unarmed, no matter what. The instructions are very clear. Any person you run into, that you see with your eyes – shoot to kill. It’s an explicit instruction.”

From
UN battle to ‘shame’ Israel over abuse of children

 

[Johnnypenso]

Israel's mighty IDF might get an "honorary" place by ISIL and Al-Qaeda on the list of shame.
Fun, fun, fun...

That would place it, for the first time, alongside groups like Islamic State, the Taliban and al-Qaeda-affiliated groups, pushing Israel further towards international isolation.]

Israel tries to intimidate the United Nations...


And these are the violations


44% of Gaza's population is under 14.

This week, a group of IDF reservists told how IDF is indiscriminately targeting civilians.

From
UN battle to ‘shame’ Israel over abuse of children

Equating the IDF with ISIL and Al-Queda? 6 supposed violations vs. thousands or tens of thousands killed, hundreds of thousands or millions displaced. Entire countries in disarray. Brutal rapes and tortures of thousands and thousands of women? Schoolgirls kidnapped by the hundreds and taken into the jungle and forced to fornicate with savages. Too many beheadings to count. And you think this is "fun, fun, fun" and comparable to the IDF? You sir, have lost all perspective.

 

[Blitz24]

Do you actually read the full links you cite ad nauseum? Or do you just post them blindly cherry-picking whatever you feel like to make "Israel look bad" and Palestine look "100% innocent"?

Both sides are guilty of many things.

I guess you also have chosen to ignore everyone else who doesn't agree with your perspective and essentially make questions to you comparable to talking to a brick wall.

Your posts are no longer information but rather thinly veiled propaganda against Israel in a spam fashion.

 

[squadops]

Your posts are no longer information but rather thinly veiled propaganda against Israel in a spam fashion.

They sure are, for anyone interested I'll give a few links to the U.N. Security Council and their Children and Armed Conflict reports.

Security Council Working Group on Children and Armed Conflict

Reports

There are lots of informative links on both pages, lets take the word from the horses mouth instead of hysterical propaganda machines.

 

[KSaiyu]

I know I'm only feeding the fire but....

Settlements to surge as right corners Netanyahu

Israel is ready for a surge in settlement building in the Palestinian territories after Binyamin Netanyahu appointed a string of hardline rightwingers to key jobs in his government.

The prime minister buckled to demands from Jewish Home, his pro-settler coalition partner, and named Ayelet Shaked, 39, a prominent opponent of the peace process, as justice minister. His fragile new government will hold just 61 seats out of 120 in the Knesset, the Israeli parliament.

Ms Shaked has pledged to weaken the power of the country’s High Court, a bastion of liberal Israel, which has made regular rulings against settlers in favour of Arab petitioners.

Saeb Erekat, the chief Palestinian negotiator, described the new administration as a “government of war” that would “set its sights on killing and reinforcing settlement activities”.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/middleeast/article4433797.ece

This will not end well....

 

[F1jocker12]

During an interview with French Le Monde newspaper in Jerusalem yesterday, the soldier who identified himself as Arieh, 20, said: "I was called to service early on July 2014 and was deployed to the Gaza Strip but until that time the operation [Operation Protective Edge] was not announced yet. Only some soldiers speculated that there will be war, but later our commander told us to imagine a 200 metre radius and to immediately shoot anything moving inside this circle."

"We bombed civilian targets for entertainment," he said, adding that "one day at about 8am we went to the Al-Bureij; a highly dense residential area in central Gaza, and the commander told us to select a random target and shoot it, at the time we did not see any Hamas fighters, no one shot at us, but the commander told us jokingly: 'We have to send Bureij a morning greeting from the Israeli army'."

IDF soldiers are coming out

We have also learned during our training that you cannot play with the trigger, even on a trial basis, but what happened in the enclave was contrary to our consciences."

Israeli soldier: We bombed civilian targets in Gaza for entertainment

@KSaiyu
read this
Bibi's Government Declares War on Itself

 

[KSaiyu]

IDF soldiers are coming out

The result of an IDF veterans group called "Breakng the Silence"

http://www.democracynow.org/2015/5/6/kill_anything_israeli_soldiers_say_gaza

 

[F1jocker12]

The result of an IDF veterans group called "Breakng the Silence"

http://www.democracynow.org/2015/5/6/kill_anything_israeli_soldiers_say_gaza

here is the book
This is how we fought in Gaza

 

[F1jocker12]

here is the main obstacle against peace - racism and illegal expropriation based on discriminatory laws

Their eviction is part of a broader process of pushing the indigenous Palestinian Bedouin population of the Naqab off their land.
An estimated 1.7 million Palestinians carry Israeli citizenship and live in cities, towns and villages across the country. According to Adalah, they suffer from more than 50 discriminatory laws that stifle their political expression and limit their access to state resources, including land.

In the Naqab, tens of thousands of Palestinians live in unrecognized villages and are denied basic services such as electricity, water and education, among others.

“The reality in the unrecognized villages is unbearable, and it is our responsibility to struggle together in order to bring about real change for these citizens,” Ayman Odeh, head of the Joint Arab List — a coalition of Palestinian-majority parties in the Knesset —told the marchers, as +972 Magazine reported.

Israel court approves demolition of Bedouin village to make way for Jews
and
Supreme Court allows state to replace Bedouin village with Jewish one

 

[KSaiyu]

Well you aren't going to fix racism by having someone like Ayelet Shaked so high up the Knesset.

 

[F1jocker12]

Very good interview(April 29th 2015) with

Richard Falk is an American professor Emeritus of International Law at Princeton University. He just completed a six-year term as United Nations Special Rapporteur on Palestinian human rights. He was appointed to this role by the UN Human Rights Council, in 2008.

About US veto rights

There are two kinds of vetoes that the US Government possesses. There is the constitutional veto in the UN Security Council that has been used to insulate Israel from criticism and accountability, and this is reinforced by the geopolitical veto that takes the form of informal power and influence exercised behind closed doors, blocking action that goes against the policies favored by the United States. This veto power undermines any possibility of ‘international democracy’ in the operations of the UN, and confirms what I have called ‘the primacy of geopolitics.’

About a two state solution

I do not think the Israeli leadership has any interest in a two-state solution, and I am not sure it was ever a solution in their mind except in a form that the Palestinian state would be denied real sovereignty and independence. It is time for the Palestinians to form their own conception of peace, given the realities of the present, and if it continues to be within the two-state format, then it should be described in ways that relate to such issues as the settlements, future of Jerusalem, and the right of return of Palestinian refugees.

About the peace process

In my view, the peace process has given Israel 20+ years to consolidate their penetration of the West Bank and their ambitions in Jerusalem.

The Oslo Framework is fundamentally flawed for two main reasons: it is wrong to have the United States serve as the intermediary and it is inappropriate to have allowed Israel to continue building settlements, which are unlawful encroachments on occupied Palestinian territory.

About political Hamas and the UN

I would assume that there would be a challenge in the UN if Hamas wins the presidential and PLC elections, and then attempts to represent Palestine within the UN. It would likely be a major confrontation, especially in the General Assembly. I would anticipate that Hamas would be successful in this setting in persuading a majority of UN Members that has earned the right to represent the Palestinian people.

Hamas has behaved as a political actor since deciding to compete for political leadership by entering the electoral process. It was initially encouraged to do so by the U.S. Government, but it was not expected to win. It is my understanding that Hamas has given private diplomatic assurances as well as public statements to the effect that it seeks to end violent confrontations with Israel and is willing to enter into long-term peaceful coexistence arrangements.

Keeping Hamas in a terrorist cage serves the purpose of claiming the absence of a Palestinian partner for peace, and Israel does not want a negotiated peace at this time.

from
Falk: Hamas behaved as political actor since deciding to compete for political leadership

 

[KSaiyu]

Regarding the two state solution - this has been admitted as not being an option by Binny. Anyone expecting that under the current government is delusional.

 

[Blitz24]

Because Hamas winning the general elections would be great news for the Palestinians.

 

[squadops]

Very good interview(April 29th 2015) with
About US veto rights

Within the U.N. the golden rule prevails.

 

[Blitz24]

If Hamas doesn't publicly recognize Israel's right to exist then how would it be possible to make a peace treaty with an entity that doesn't view you as legitimate?

 

[F1jocker12]

Pope Francis, just said

"many powerful people don't want peace because they live off war".

"Some powerful people make their living with the production of arms.
"It's the industry of death".

from http://www.ansa.it/english/news/vat...ace_be1929fb-80a1-4f31-a099-7f24443e3928.html

I wonder how they look like?
In the movie posted at the end of this comment, you will see how Israel's arms business is developing.
And I will offer you some of those leeches names, faces and thoughts.
General (ret.)Amiram Levin – former IDF Northern Command (1991-1998)
"Punishment as a strategy should be the main element” (4.53)
“Quantity is more important than quality” (5.23)
“Most of these people were born to die, we just have to help them” (5.32)

You will also recognize Shimon Naveh - Lt. Colonel (ret.) - military philosopher (speaking about military strategy and tactics in urban warfare), Itzhak Ben-Israel - General (ret.) - prof. of philosophy and Yoav Galant - General (ret.) - head of IDF Southern Command 2005-2012 (a "master" of military rhetoric)

The Lab - by Yotam Feldman (entire movie in hebrew has english captions) - Warning! Graphic Content!

 

[F1jocker12]

"Potus" has hope - the Palestinians deserve an end to the occupation

"It's no secret that we now have a very difficult path forward. As a result, the United States is taking a hard look at our approach to the conflict," suggesting that the EU is not alone in considering policy adjustments with Israel.

"Ultimately, the parties will need to address not just Gaza's immediate humanitarian and reconstruction needs, but also core challenges to Gaza's future within a two-state context, including reinvigorating Gaza's connection with the West Bank and reestablishing strong commercial links with Israel and the global economy."

Obama: Palestinians deserve an end to the occupation (israeli source)

And Pope Francis recognizes Palestine

The Vatican officially recognized the state of Palestine in a new treaty finalized Wednesday, immediately sparking Israeli ire and accusations that the move hurt peace prospects.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/05/13/vatican-recognizes-palestine

and a little more complete article at
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...5624f2-f97d-11e4-9ef4-1bb7ce3b3fb7_story.html

 

[squadops]

He hopes they deserve an end? I'm pretty sure he knows they deserve it, strange choice of words.

 

[High-Test]

Where's milefile when we need him? Welcome to the new drift forum.