Israel - Palestine discussion thread

[Blitz24]

So the first quote is what was said and the rest is trying to put a spin on it so that Meir looks to be a cruel individual. Got it.

 

[Johnnypenso]

misquote - "quote (a person or a piece of written or spoken text) inaccurately."

Golda Meir's initial statement in 1957 in english at the National Press Club in Washington D.C.

Innacurate quotes -


The rest of it is actually the AD from The Hollywood reporter, the actors and writers article was the way I got to the AD, gives an interpretation to the misquote(the place where ElectronicIntifada - Ali Abunimah's blog sends you to).

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Some of you will love this one
More than 350 Survivors and Descendants of Survivors and Victims of the Nazi Genocide Condemn Israel’s Assault on Gaza

This is the quote from 1957 as it is listed on many websites:

“We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. We cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their children. We will only have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us.”
― Golda Meir

http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/223411.Golda_Meir
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...aths-of-children-ndash-and-sense-1418244.html
...among many others

This is the exact quote in the JDL ad:

The broadly referenced original quote and the JDL ad are identical. Again, where is the misquote?

 

[TenEightyOne]

This is the quote from 1957 as it is listed on many websites:

“We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. We cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their children. We will only have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us.”
― Golda Meir

Yup, and wikiquote gives the original quotation source ('73).

 

[F1jocker12]

She never said what is in the Advertisement... they misquoted her... if the source has a date, doesn't mean she said that... it means somebody put more words into her mouth... 1973 source is an autobiography quoting her from 1957...
The only think she said was

Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.

Not a word more, not a word less... The moment you add or remove something is a misquote....

trying to put a spin on it so that Meir looks to be a cruel individual.

hahahahahaha
nobody says anything about Meir as a person...that is not relevant... you are looking for conspiracies under paranoia.. she was an Israeli government official and that's why her words sounded important... she was neither Snow White nor the Witch trying to get eternal beauty from the magic mirror... Do you think it matters todat if Bibi is a good or a bad person? Nobody gives a **** about that... He could be a frenetic loverboy, or a sweet granpa, or a super kind son, or a ferocious political character.. but when it comes to Occupation, he acts like a criminal.

 

[Johnnypenso]

She never said what is in the Advertisement... they misquoted her... if the source has a date, doesn't mean she said that... it means somebody put more words into her mouth... 1973 source is an autobiography quoting her from 1957...
The only think she said was Not a word more, not a word less... The moment you add or remove something is a misquote....

I've already shown you that the quote as stated in the JDL ad is widely quoted verbatim in various websites as the original text. Do you have something, somewhere that says that your shortened version of the quote is the quote in it's entirety? Otherwise you are promoting a blatant falsehood.

"Not a word more not a word less"? Her entire speech to the Press Club in 1957 consisted of one single sentence? You can prove this? Do you have the entire text of the speech? Are you certain she didn't make part of the quote in 1957 and another part in another speech and the JDL put them together?

 

[Blitz24]

I've already shown you that the quote as stated in the JDL ad is widely quoted verbatim in various websites as the original text. Do you have something, somewhere that says that your shortened version of the quote is the quote in it's entirety? Otherwise you are promoting a blatant falsehood.

"Not a word more not a word less"? Her entire speech to the Press Club in 1957 consisted of one single sentence? You can prove this? Do you have the entire text of the speech? Are you certain she didn't make part of the quote in 1957 and another part in another speech and the JDL put them together?

It proves his agenda and apparently we need to dig up facts in order to disprove him, whereas he will then give more of these falsehoods. It's a never-ending circle we are in. Add to that the fact that he doesn't give his opinion (only posts links), diverts when we ask him to give his own claim, and becomes offensive when people claim he is spouting nonsense means that we are wasting time.

 

[Johnnypenso]

It proves his agenda and apparently we need to dig up facts in order to disprove him, whereas he will then give more of these falsehoods. It's a never-ending circle we are in. Add to that the fact that he doesn't give his opinion (only posts links), diverts when we ask him to give his own claim, and becomes offensive when people claim he is spouting nonsense means that we are wasting time.

Luckily posting falsehoods is against the AUP

 

[Blitz24]

Luckily posting falsehoods is against the AUP

Until we can prove it false though, it isn't. Problem is that Internet itself holds some sort of validity according to people and being quick to judgement won't help.

 

[F1jocker12]

Does anybody else has proof she said what the Advertisement says, because I show proof she did not. Check Wikiquote again.

 

[Blitz24]

You mean the wikiquote of Wallace Shawn? That's not really proof. Using one man's opinion who even leads off with "My quick personal translation of this would be:" is not proof. Just because it is written by a Jew who believes that Israel is a criminal country doesn't mean it's true.

 

[F1jocker12]

I mean this 3rd bullet, from Golda Meir's autobiography written by herself, edited by Marie Syrkin and published in 1973 - page 242.

 

[Blitz24]

I mean this 3rd bullet, from Golda Meir's autobiography written by herself, edited by Marie Syrkin and published in 1973 - page 242.

Once again, how is one person's opinion proof? As people suggested, the quote could easily be mistranslated. Hebrew words sometimes have multiple meanings. What you have is ONE person who wrote something on a blog and distributed it out. That's not proof.

 

[squadops]

Wikiquote usually labels questionable quotes as 'disputed' or 'misattributed' or 'spurious' and so on.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I mean this 3rd bullet, from Golda Meir's autobiography written by herself, edited by Marie Syrkin and published in 1973 - page 242.

No one disagrees she made that quote in the wiki. You have to prove that she didn't say the rest of it, when I've already shown you sources that say she said all of what was quoted. Here's another source:
https://www.msudenver.edu/golda/goldameir/goldaquotes/

8) On peace, she said in 1957, before the National Press Club in Washington: Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us. (She also made a similar statement specifically regarding Nasser.) In a similar vein, she would say, Peace will come when an Arab leader is courageous enough to wish it.

9) At a 1969 press conference in London, she added: When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons.

Face it, you are wrong. It's ok, we all make mistakes, especially when we are blinded by our zealous devotion to a cause. I suggest you withdraw your false accusations concerning the JDL as soon as possible.

 

[F1jocker12]

As people suggested, the quote could easily be mistranslated. Hebrew words sometimes have multiple meanings. What you have is ONE person who wrote something on a blog and distributed it out. That's not proof.

Again, you do not know what you are talking about... The speach was in front of an American audience, Press Club english speaking group of journalists - did not required translation.
The person who putted in written was the same person who said it in the first place, Golda Meir, in her Autobiography called "A Land of Our Own : An Oral Autobiography (1973) edited by Marie Syrkin, p. 242", everything else is labeled as "variants" or "misquotes".

The quote itself it's not questionable, but the "variants" are.

She never said what the ADL advertisement published by The Hollywood Reporter on August 19th 2014, says she said.

Edit -

9) At a 1969 press conference in London, she added: When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons.

"Children" sounds a lot different than "sons"...

 

[Johnnypenso]

Edit -
"Children" sounds a lot different than "sons"...

That wasn't your original objection, don't move the goalposts. You clearly stated what you thought was the whole quote and nothing but the quote and now you're objecting to "children vs. sons". You're grasping at straws if that is now your only objection to the quote. As I said, you are wrong, just admit it and move on.

 

[F1jocker12]

hahahahahaha
Here is my original statement

Later on, she was missquoted by the Anti-Defamaition League in an advertisment ran by the Hollywood Reporter - "We can forgive [them] for killing our children. We cannot forgive them from forcing us to kill their children. We will only have peace with [them] when they love their children more than they hate us."

I give you her statement the way you posted it, but is still misquoted by ADL... used "children" to counterbalance the direct children targeted by IDF in the Gaza attacks, while Meir used "sons" because at that time the majority of the IDF was men... huge difference ... and nice try ADL.

anyway this details are insignificant... for me, this tail chasing (she said this, she said that) stops here... and I will move on, like it was suggested.

 

[Johnnypenso]

hahahahahaha
Here is my original statement

I give you her statement the way you posted it, but is still misquoted by ADL... used "children" to counterbalance the direct children targeted by IDF in the Gaza attacks, while Meir used "sons" because at that time the majority of the IDF was men... huge difference ... and nice try ADL.

anyway this details are insignificant... for me, this tail chasing (she said this, she said that) stops here... and I will move on, like it was suggested.

Move on yes. Take down your original assertion of the misquote because you've moved the goal posts completely away from where they were originally. Your original argument was that this should have been the quote in it's entirety remember?:

The only think she said was
Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hateus.
Not a word more, not a word less

In other words you were professing that the rest of the JDF quote didn't exist, which turns out not to be the case. You were wrong in other words. Moving the goalposts won't change that.

 

[F1jocker12]

The truth about last week rocket fired from Gaza Strip

This was the first rocket fired from Gaza this year, according to the Israeli military, and the fourth rocket fired from inside Gaza to land inside Israeli territory since the August 2014 ceasefire (the previous incident took place on December 19, 2014)

while

In the period January-March, Israeli occupation forces killed one Palestinian civilian and wounded a further 16. There were six military incursions – when Israeli forces invade the Gaza Strip then withdraw – and 67 shooting attacks on land and at sea.

These attacks targeted farmers, fishermen, and unarmed protesters. The Israeli military's unilateral imposition of a 'no go' zone close to the border fence, as well as in Gaza's waters, is a key part of the blockade, and a violation of international law (and even of the Oslo Accords).

Remember: during these same three months, not even one rocket was fired from Gaza into Israel.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/18279-attacks-on-gaza-january-march-2015

 

[Blitz24]

Because firing rockets is the only threat.

So this wasn't anything serious at all.

Terrorist goes into Jersualem shul, kills 5

 

[Johnnypenso]

The truth about last week rocket fired from Gaza Strip

while

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/18279-attacks-on-gaza-january-march-2015

With the pervasiveness of cellphones and ease of access to the internet these days, it's rather surprising that we don't see any video of these innocent attacks on innocent fisherman and unarmed protestors who I'm sure are just out minding their own business. Surely the innocent protestors see them coming and have plenty of time to film.

Have you deleted your false claim about the Golda Meir quotes yet?

 

[F1jocker12]

@Blitz24
That is sad as well, but note how that tragic attack took place inside West Jerusalem, which is not part of the Occupied Territories.

But speaking about violence per se... What do you think about Mahatma Ghandi? Is he a good person to listen to, when it comes to ressistance against occupation and achieving peace?

 

[Blitz24]

That is sad as well, but note how that tragic attack took place inside West Jerusalem, which is not part of the Occupied Territories.

Because only the violence done in Gaza and not by people committing murder matters . You are arguing for the Palestinian's case but ignoring any sort of attacks that didn't originate from their land.

But speaking about violence per se... What do you think about Mahatma Ghandi? Is he a good person to listen to, when it comes to ressistance against occupation and achieving peace?

Stop trying to deflect and answer the questions you have been asked.

 

[F1jocker12]

Because only the violence done in Gaza and not by people committing murder matters . You are arguing for the Palestinian's case but ignoring any sort of attacks that didn't originate from their land.

100% of the violence is done because of the maintained illegal Occupation of Gaza Strip, Golan Heights and East Jerusalem.

And people under occupation have the right to resist under International Law.

But let's see what Mahatma Ghandi had to say about it:

Speaking in 1938 specifically of Palestine, Gandhi said:

And now a word to the Jews in Palestine. I have no doubt that they are going about it in the wrong way. The Palestine of the Biblical conception is not a geographical tract. It is in their hearts. But if they must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun.

They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs … [and] nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds.

Essentially

if someone is being raped and the victim fights back against the attacker, it is technically violence, but Gandhi does not consider it violence.

and

Gandhi gave the further example of the Nazi invasion of Poland: the Poles used their comparatively meager resources – a few tanks and artillery – to resist the overwhelming Nazi army, and Gandhi says that while this resistance was violence, he does not consider it violence.

So

Gandhi’s words resonate not only for Palestine (where the ratio of Palestinian to Israeli children killed in the latest massacre was 537 to 1), but for places like Baltimore and Ferguson, and countries like the US, where certain groups have been struggling for generations against brutal, disproportionate force.

To give you an accurate image of life inside Gaza Strip

Gazans, according to the US-based human rights groups, have only the right to be executed by Israel, and have a choice between a slow or quick execution.

Gandhi: Violence Against Disproportionate Aggression Is Not Violence

 

[Sanji Himura]

Maybe it is time you took Gandhi's advice for yourself and try to look at the situation dispassionately. Maybe then you won't see as much hostility around GTP than you are getting now.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Gandhi: Violence Against Disproportionate Aggression Is Not Violence

As usual, you miss all the context that gives meaning. How much disproportionate violence did 5 Orthodox Jews in a Synagogue commit against the Palestinians? How much disproportionate violence was committed by the baby also killed in the same month. You're suggesting some kind of honourable fight here where none exists. It's terrorism pure and simple. Baby's and rabbis don't carry guns as far as I know.

It would also interest you to know that while you hold these Palestinian murderers and terrorists in high regard, the Palestinian authorities do not (same source as above):

President Mahmoud Abbas of the Palestinian Authority issued a statement Tuesday saying, “We condemn the killings of worshipers at the synagogue in Jerusalem, and condemn acts of violence no matter their source.” The same statement, published by Wafa, the official Palestinian news agency, called for a halt to “incitement against Aqsa,” one of two shrines at the holy site.

Seems you and the Palestinian authorities stand apart on this issue.

 

[Sanji Himura]

As usual, you miss all the context that gives meaning. How much disproportionate violence did 5 Orthodox Jews in a Synagogue commit against the Palestinians? How much disproportionate violence was committed by the baby also killed in the same month. You're suggesting some kind of honourable fight here where none exists. It's terrorism pure and simple. Baby's and rabbis don't carry guns as far as I know.

It would also interest you to know that while you hold these Palestinian murderers and terrorists in high regard, the Palestinian authorities do not (same source as above):



Seems you and the Palestinian authorities stand apart on this issue.

Another factor that we must now take into consideration is that we should consider the West Bank and Gaza two separate states. I'll be more likely be willing to talk to Abbas at any negotiating table than I would any representative of the Gaza Strip, despite any insistence that the two are the same country. Also the prevailing question that should be asked if any peace deal is struck is how long will it take for Hamas to break it by shooting missiles.

 

[F1jocker12]

Seems you and the Palestinian authorities stand apart on this issue.

From my #1339 comment

Making jokes on this thread is childish. I give you a better idea...You can send those "funny" gifs, pictures, drawings or sarcastic comments in private. I don't mind guys. But please respect dead arab and israeli civilians, arab combatants, israeli soldiers and their families. They deserve respect and commitment to stop the crazy fighting.

Maybe then you won't see as much hostility around GTP than you are getting now.

If you call this hostility then, again, you do not know what you are talking about. Do you know what it takes to stand up for innocent victims, people whitout any chance whatsoever, only because life matters more than death? Do you know about what is moral and what is immoral, about human rights and values? Do you know what it takes to say "no" when everybody else says "yes"?
I just want to give you the latest example of an Gandhian approach - commentator has this opinion pixelated with some censored emoticons (#1642)

I know exactly what is real,my father lost a father,I lost a Grandfather and millions and millions and millions suffered at the hands of some 🤬 idiot a horrible fate that no one could think as fathomable. So for you to sit here mashing away on your 🤬 keyboard like some child with an agenda in the sandbox, makes me think you don't remember history. I think the only boycott should be you,but then again,many people gave you this freedom. So continue on.

GTP forum is quiet... waiting for the play to unfold... my answer? (#1645)

@killerjimbag
If you know where his remains are, next time you go there to honor your granpa's memory, bring him a flower from GTP members. We owe him respect!
Israels crimes have nothing to do with that tragedy though. They are only hijacking that crime, to cover a similar crime they are comitting today in the Occupied Territories

Show me other GTP member that reacted the same way in a similar situation my friend.
You really don't know what you are talking about!

 

[Sanji Himura]

If you call this hostility then, again, you do not know what you are talking about. Do you know what it takes to stand up for innocent victims, people whitout any chance whatsoever, only because life matters more than death? Do you know about what is moral and what is immoral, about human rights and values? Do you know what it takes to say "no" when everybody else says "yes"?

I believe in facts, sir. So far, what you haven't shown isn't what normal people call a civilized discussion at all. You throw out what could be equated to Alex Jones or Jessie Ventura conspiracy theories, and when we call you out on it, you claim that we have selective reading in an attempt to push the blame on the reader as if the reader suddenly developed a problem reading the material. It just doesn't work that way.

Debate isn't what modern day liberals consider debate today where we can tolerate your opinion as long as it is in line with mine. There will be people who disagree with you all the time, but that doesn't give you a license to attack them personally or professionally.

"Words have meaning." - Rush

 

[F1jocker12]

doesn't give you a license to attack them personally or professionally.

hahahaha
Like asking them in the name of all GTP members, after they give me pixelated censored comments, to get flowers to their deceased relatives, because those decesed relatives deserve our unconditional respect? I think you need a compass to find your direction again... because you seem to be lost.
Professionally? Can you elaborate on that?