Israel - Palestine discussion thread

[Blitz24]

If you take this out of context, sounds off topic. If you consider the context, you will see how EU does the same thing jewish community've done, today because Israels ... how did you say?... attacks. It is another way to signal a ferm position against Israels abuses...

This is European Community (many civilised nations) deciding to apply a sanction to an abusive regime, in response to its crimes in the illegal Occupied Territories.

@squadops



They are already illegaly occupying land which needs to be returned, that means they've already went "berzekoid" under US long protection?

Oh look, the buzzphrase has appeared again. To quote @Famine, "return to whom?" "Occupying Whom?" Returning the land to anyone will not make the condition better, because it never was the land of the people you are insinuating is receiving the land (or should). They had opportunities to receive the land, but they chose not to sign the agreements.

 

[F1jocker12]

Oh look, the buzzphrase has appeared again. To quote @Famine, "return to whom?" "Occupying Whom?" Returning the land to anyone will not make the condition better, because it never was the land of the people you are insinuating is receiving the land (or should). They had opportunities to receive the land, but they chose not to sign the agreements.

Return it to its owners... go back to June 4th 1967 borders... Ignoring the International Law (done by some commentators here) doesn't mean the International Law does not exist or does not apply
http://www.israellawresourcecenter.org/internationallaw/studyguides/sgil3a.htm

The agreements?

peace negotiations have been an elaborate charade allowing Israel to continue to colonize the West Bank.

And to move on ... and show how victims are thinkink of peace even if they lost loved ones to terorist attacks...

The state has prosecuted Palestinian bombers for decades, but none has received the death sentence — though, ironically, Israeli law does permit targeted military assassinations of would-be Palestinian attackers if there’s no other way to arrest them or foil their attack. And that’s certainly happened many times.

“My [34-year-old] wife, she was pregnant, she died instantly — burned to death in front of the whole family,” says Abie Moses, a volunteer at the center. His 5-year-old son also died in the attack, which took place in the late 80s.

And even Moses says that while he still supports the death penalty in theory, he'd be open to keeping attackers alive — even the one who killed his wife and son. It's worth it, he says, if one day a prisoner exchange could really lead to a lasting peace.

from
Why Israeli courts refuse the death penalty for terrorists

 

[Tornado]

Return it to its owners... go back to June 4th 1967 borders...

Except Jordan doesn't want it, so who are the owners?

 

[F1jocker12]

Except Jordan doesn't want it, so who are the owners?

Read comment # 1350 - if it says "claimed by", that means it is claimed... Palestinians meaning Palestinian Authority.

 

[squadops]

I'll post the pic so people don't have to search and flip back and forth. 1988 to present?

 

[F1jocker12]

What part of this don't you understand? The Jewish Boycott was in response to the Nazi Party's anti-semitic attacks on Jews and their businesses.

You keep repeating what I said in the first place because you read selectively... obsessed with Hitler...

But very few of you know how, the Jews've done the same thing in 1933 to Germany, to protest german authorities abuses against jewish minority.

@squadops

1988 to present?

Thank you for the team work. I appreciate that!
Which one don't you understand?
1988 or present?

 

[squadops]

I understand the chart just fine, I'm asking you if that date means something to you.

As for this silly boycott proposal, the EU has not officially done anything have they? Even if they do it's not going to have much of an effect, if any at all. Seriously, no one is going to care.

 

[Tornado]

Read comment # 1350 - if it says "claimed by", that means it is claimed...

So it was claimed by Jordan in 1967, and Jordan doesn't seem to want it. So who are the owners, and how is it being returned to them if it wasn't theirs in 1967?

 

[F1jocker12]

I understand the chart just fine, I'm asking you if that date means something to you.

So it was claimed by Jordan in 1967, and Jordan doesn't seem to want it. So who are the owners, and how is it being returned to them if it wasn't theirs in 1967?

Gentlemen... back in 1988

King Hussein of Jordan ... abandoned to the Palestine Liberation Organization any claim to the Israeli-occupied West Bank his Hashemite family ruled between 1948 and 1967.

article from New York Times - August 1st 1988
HUSSEIN SURRENDERS CLAIMS ON WEST BANK TO THE P.L.O.; U.S. PEACE PLAN IN JEOPARDY; Internal Tensions

As for this silly boycott proposal, the EU has not officially done anything have they? Even if they do it's not going to have much of an effect, if any at all. Seriously, no one is going to care.

Don't be so sure about it. Israel is facing isolation, Bibi asked for more time to create a coalition. If he cannot do it, Israel will have new elections... Do you need a link to this info?

If the commentators do not know the history is not a tragedy, and I know it hurts when a stranger stept into a forum and gives large amounts of evidence about something which most of the world learned differently. I need to tell you how this is only a scratch on the tip of the iceberg... and if you feel bad about it, you can take a brake to stop the pain. I felt the same when I've started to dig deep into these issues. It is like a freezing shower in the middle of an arctic winter. It is also almost impossible to think about such crimes done by the Israelis, but... lads... sadly... it is true. Despite the anymosities here, I admire how all of you, comentators and readers, come back and participate. That means it matters to you, and that is rare, very rare. Again, you feel uncomfortable, take care of yourself... the thread will be here as long as the admins want it...
What you will read under some links or what you hear and see in some videos or pictures, it has a graphic message, horrible and sometimes, very difficult to process by a human beeing. Speaking and reading about crimes happening on a daily basis it will mark you forever. Take care, guys!

 

[squadops]

Don't be so sure about it. Israel is facing isolation, Bibi asked for more time to create a coalition. If he cannot do it, Israel will have new elections... Do you need a link to this info?

What does that have to do with a few people writing a letter to the EU requesting a boycott?

If the commentators do not know the history is not a tragedy, and I know it hurts when a stranger stept into a forum and gives large amounts of evidence about something which most of the world learned differently. I need to tell you how this is only a scratch on the tip of the iceberg... and if you feel bad about it, you can take a brake to stop the pain. I felt the same when I've started to dig deep into these issues. It is like a freezing shower in the middle of an arctic winter. It is also almost impossible to think about such crimes done by the Israelis, but... lads... sadly... it is true. Despite the anymosities here, I admire how all of you, comentators and readers, come back and participate. That means it matters to you, and that is rare, very rare. Again, you feel uncomfortable, take care of yourself... the thread will be here as long as the admins want it...
What you will read under some links or what you hear and see in some videos or pictures, it has a graphic message, horrible and sometimes, very difficult to process by a human beeing. Speaking and reading about crimes happening on a daily basis it will mark you forever. Take care, guys!

The history is not a tragedy, as in the holocaust is not a tragedy, ok. I don't know who it is you think you are hurting with all your evidence, holocaust survivors maybe but certainly not anyone in this thread. Why would any of us feel bad about it when it isn't even discernible what you are talking about, perhaps you are the one in need of a brake to stop the pain you are causing yourself. Thinking about the crimes done by the Israelis is not any more painful than thinking about the crimes any other organization commits, the fact that there is a thread about the conflict on the internet surprises you? No one feels uncomfortable, we're already accustomed to this sort of subject mater, and we already know how long this thread will be here. Everyone participating in this thread is capable of processing the facts given in news reports and videos on the subject. Marked forever, hopefully marked with facts and not fiction, no one is scarred for life by reading this thread.

Is this some kind of Joke?

 

[F1jocker12]

What does that have to do with a few people writing a letter to the EU requesting a boycott?



The history is not a tragedy, as in the holocaust is not a tragedy, ok. I don't know who it is you think you are hurting with all your evidence, holocaust survivors maybe but certainly not anyone in this thread. Why would any of us feel bad about it when it isn't even discernible what you are talking about, perhaps you are the one in need of a brake to stop the pain you are causing yourself. Thinking about the crimes done by the Israelis is not any more painful than thinking about the crimes any other organization commits, the fact that there is a thread about the conflict on the internet surprises you? No one feels uncomfortable, we're already accustomed to this sort of subject mater, and we already know how long this thread will be here. Everyone participating in this thread is capable of processing the facts given in news reports and videos on the subject. Marked forever, hopefully marked with facts and not fiction, no one is scarred for life by reading this thread.

Is this some kind of Joke?

Sixteen EU states have said products made by Israeli settlers should be marked in shops so that European consumers can boycott them if they want to.

Who told you there are few people writing a letter to the EU? It is yes.... 16 EU members... 16 nations EU representatives ....

The tragedy?... let me rephrase it... It is not a tragedy if some commentators don't know the history. You will be surprised to find out how, based on the country you reside in, you learn a different kind of history, which is that particular nation's version of the events... Joke? You see conspiracies again.... The rest of your comment? nah... let's stay on topic, would you?

 

[squadops]

I'd hardly call the ignorance of a few on a gaming message board a tragedy, but ok, at least you cleared that up because it really was starting to sound like you where a holocaust denier. I'm not surprised, I already know how history is written. Every word I posted above was in direct response to your post, if you don't like it and think it's off topic then perhaps it's you that needs to 'stay on topic'.

Would you care to wager as to whether the EU will or will not declare a boycott? 16 EU members is basically a few people when you consider the magnitude of parties involved in the dispute. National EU representatives are not the giants in the game as you think.

You are entitled to your opinion that a boycott, if declared, will have a large impact just as I'm entitled to say it wont.

 

[F1jocker12]

You are entitled to your opinion that a boycott, if declared, will have a large impact just as I'm entitled to say it wont

Absolutely! The way I see this is as a big puzzle, with this element (the boycott) as a piece of it. Isolation is the key word here (the word you see when you finish the puzzle).

National EU representatives are not the giants in the game as you think.

I beg to differ. Representatives discuss over any proposal. This is not an idea you get while drinking a coffee at the cafeteria. As the article states, there was a previous similar initiative back in 2013... so it is not new either.

I'd hardly call the ignorance of a few on a gaming message board a tragedy

Well, when you start jumping on conclusions and see conspiracies, only because of the emotional impact or because what you read is the total opposite of what you've learned and qonsequently valued, things change a little. You had a legitimate question about 1988 (because the term "present" was out of question I hope) and sometimes is difficult to learn about certain major events during agitated times or about a complicated and troubled conflict.
But I agree with you... It is not a tragedy!

 

[squadops]

You had a legitimate question about 1988

Oh goody, do I get a purple ribbon for participation now?

Your condescension knows no bounds, and you wonder why people lose patience with you so quickly. And no, I see no conspiracies other than your persistence to blame everything on the Jews.

 

[F1jocker12]

other than your persistence to blame everything on the Jews.

????
​

Actually... Scroll up to my comment #1622 - most of the Jews living in Israel want PEACE, because the Palestinians will be their eternal neighbour.
Your mind is blocking what I say because you keep hearing only what you want to hear...
Now follow my finger please...It is NOT the Jews, it is the Israeli government to blame... BIG difference.

 

[squadops]

Did this same Israeli government declare war in 1933? Stop insulting my intelligence, besides if you are going to play that separation game, why do you want to hurt the Jews with a boycott? Don't tell me, I know, it will force the government out and then everyone can sing kumbaya.

 

[F1jocker12]

Did this same Israeli government declare war in 1933? Stop insulting my intelligence, besides if you are going to play that separation game, why do you want to hurt the Jews with a boycott? Don't tell me, I know, it will force the government out and then everyone can sing kumbaya.

You are insulting you own intelligence... and that is sad. Back in 1933

representatives of the American Jewish Committee, B’nai B’rith and the American Jewish Congress met in New York. The conferees established a joint committee to monitor the situation but agreed that organized public protests in America would further undermine the already precarious position of German Jewry.

same https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/The_Anti-Nazi_Boycott.html

It was American Jewish Minority LEADERSHIP. It is always the leadership, not the people.
At that time, the boycott had the same basic objective as today, to bring attention to abuses done by a government over a minority or a population. You kept saying you think is a joke and now you are worried how is going to hurt the Israels population?
No my friend, a boycott was NOT meant to inflict suffering to germans in 1933 nor today to israelis... It was/is only a way to point out the "anomaly". Ultimately EU wants to label the products to give consumers a choice.

When inmates decide to go into hunger strikes (boycott the facility's food), it is only to point out an injustice or again, an anomaly, with a taken risk of damaging their own wealth into the process.

By not buying great Israeli foods at the Supermarket, you can protest by denying yourself some great salads or meats (basic example here)... for the sake of the Palestinians and for peace.
Do you understand how boycott equals protest, and can inflict suffering on BOTH sides? The important thing here is to take the risk to fight/stand up for the right cause!

Edit -

Don't tell me, I know, it will force the government out

It might change their attitude in general, over their concept of negotiating peace and their ability to agree with possible negociated terms.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Ultimately EU wants to label the products to give consumers a choice.

Baloney, let's not pretend this has anything to do with choice shall we. It's plain and simple, singling out Israel so that Jew haters, anti-semites, Palestinian sympathizers and the misguided and misinformed can more easily identify what comes from Israel, and hopefully impact Israeli imports in a negative fashion. It's economic persecution under the guise under some misguided notion of equality or fairplay or some other such nonsense.

And yes, it is a modern version of this, IMO of course:

 

[killerjimbag]

Baloney, let's not pretend this has anything to do with choice shall we. It's plain and simple, singling out Israel so that Jew haters, anti-semites, Palestinian sympathizers and the misguided and misinformed can more easily identify what comes from Israel, and hopefully impact Israeli imports in a negative fashion. It's economic persecution under the guise under some misguided notion of equality or fairplay or some other such nonsense.

And yes, it is a modern version of this, IMO of course:

To think my Grandfather gave his life along with so many others so that F1jocker12 could speak his opinion,well done my friend,well done. Wow!

 

[F1jocker12]

Baloney, let's not pretend this has anything to do with choice shall we. It's plain and simple, singling out Israel so that Jew haters, anti-semites, Palestinian sympathizers and the misguided and misinformed can more easily identify what comes from Israel, and hopefully impact Israeli imports in a negative fashion. It's economic persecution under the guise under some misguided notion of equality or fairplay or some other such nonsense.

And yes, it is a modern version of this, IMO of course:

????
My opinion... you lost it ... Do you know how

failure to recognize what is real

is called?

Schizophrenia....

Read the article again... this is the beginning

Sixteen EU states have said products made by Israeli settlers should be marked in shops so that European consumers can boycott them if they want to.

again
https://euobserver.com/foreign/128367

Wow... Now I wonder if you take any drugs...

 

[Johnnypenso]

????
My opinion... you lost it ... Do you know how is called?
Schizophrenia....

Read the article again... this is the beginning


again
https://euobserver.com/foreign/128367

Wow...

History lesson:
http://ww2today.com/15th-september-1941-new-restrictions-on-german-jews

The newspaper justification: after the army had got to know; through Bolshevism, the cruelty etc, of the jew; all possibility of camouflage must be removed from the Jews here, to spare the comrades of the people all contact with them.

 

[killerjimbag]

????
My opinion... you lost it ... Do you know how is called?

Schizophrenia....

Read the article again... this is the beginning


again
https://euobserver.com/foreign/128367

Wow... Now I wonder if you take any drugs...

I know exactly what is real,my father lost a father,I lost a Grandfather and millions and millions and millions suffered at the hands of some 🤬 idiot a horrible fate that no one could think as fathomable. So for you to sit here mashing away on your 🤬 keyboard like some child with an agenda in the sandbox, makes me think you don't remember history. I think the only boycott should be you,but then again,many people gave you this freedom. So continue on.

 

[squadops]

Personal attacks now? oh dear.

I looked to our government to see what sort of imports we're talking about for the U.S., possibly their biggest spender. This is what I found.

Top 20 exports to the U.S. by dollar amount per year

​

• (42100) Gem diamonds _______________________________9,242,146,000​
• (40100) Pharmaceutical preparations ___________________4,660,570,000​
• (21610) Medicinal equipment ___________________________669,659,000​
• (50020) U.S. goods returned, and reimports _____________ 616,105,000​
• (22000) Civilian aircraft ______________________________492,441,000​
• (21400) Telecommunications equipment _________________490,448,000​
• (21160) Measuring, testing, control instruments __________481,233,000​
• (20005) Electric apparatus ____________________________464,877,000​
• (22020) Engines-civilian aircraft________________________391,869,000​
• (21320) Semiconductors _____________________________376,329,000​
• (16120) Industrial supplies, other ______________________313,486,000​
• (21180) Industrial machines, other _____________________225,804,000​
• (21190) Photo, service industry machinery ______________224,609,000​
• (21150) Pulp and paper machinery _____________________195,665,000​
• (21301) Computer accessories ________________________187,250,000​
• (12530) Chemicals-inorganic __________________________186,927,000​
• (50000) Military aircraft and parts _____________________150,950,000​
• (22010) Parts-civilian aircraft _________________________150,778,000​
• (40120) Toiletries and cosmetics _______________________149,404,000​
• (21300) Computers __________________________________139,463,000​
• ​
• ​
• TOTAL(including 117 other products) _________________23,050,627,000​

​

https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/statistics/product/enduse/imports/c5081.html#questions

Take of it what you will, I was just making sure I'd be able to survive without Israeli products. I don't expect to see special labeling anytime soon, I guess those would be used only in EU countries, but if I do I'll be sure to give my support by purchasing said products. The product code on the left is a 5 digit end use code and has nothing to do with barcodes in case you where wondering.

 

[Dennisch]

And in current, real, news, there was at least one rocket fired from the Gaza Strip today, and in return Israeli tanks fired a couple of rounds back as retaliation.

 

[F1jocker12]

And in current, real, news, there was at least one rocket fired from the Gaza Strip today, and in return Israeli tanks fired a couple of rounds back as retaliation.

yeah, I've seen that... It was yesterday actually I think, and Hamas was looking to find out who did it because I think they have an interdiction for that at the moment... I can find the story... They'll continue fighting... Crazy individuals will be on both sides..

@squadops
I don't think US will do something like that... I don't know... If they go that way in Europe, Like I said, wont have an economical impact, as much as the perception of those labled products will have... Imagine children asking their parents why those products are labeled, and embarassed parents explaining in very few words it is because that country's crimes...
If you want to buy products... http://walizahid.com/2014/07/gaza-boycott-israeli-products/. I recommend Toblerone chocolate.

Off topic - Schizophrenia, like Paranoia, are very serious medical conditions. Educated enough on the matter you will understand how people suffering need help, and it is not an insult or a joke. They need constant medical attention and it is very hard on the families as well.
Medical personnel though, instructs home patients in a crisis, to call customer service phone numbers, to drive those constantly nice people crazy, instead of hurting their families.
I've pointed it out how the article says something, and the commentator says is ... baloney. What is that showing us? I also see a pattern with silly photoshopped pictures and an exagerated number of jumpy emoticons. Isn't it strange for an adult? You will think only children will do such things...

@killerjimbag
If you know where his remains are, next time you go there to honor your granpa's memory, bring him a flower from GTP members. We owe him respect!
Israels crimes have nothing to do with that tragedy though. They are only hijacking that crime, to cover a similar crime they are comitting today in the Occupied Territories.

 

[Johnnypenso]

yeah, I've seen that... It was yesterday actually I think, and Hamas was looking to find out who did it because I think they have an interdiction for that at the moment... I can find the story... They'll continue fighting... Crazy individuals will be on both sides..

Hamas makes an unprovoked rocket attack on innocent civilians and Israel justifiably retaliates but it's, "crazy individuals on both sides". To any sane person, the crazy individuals are the ones firing the rocket trying to kill innocent civilians to start the exchange.

I don't think US will do something like that... I don't know... If they go that way in Europe, Like I said, wont have an economical impact, as much as the perception of those labled products will have... Imagine children asking their parents why those products are labeled, and embarassed parents explaining in very few words it is because that country's crimes...
If you want to buy products... http://walizahid.com/2014/07/gaza-boycott-israeli-products/. I recommend Toblerone chocolate.

This kind of stupidity will never happen in Canada, not as long as Mr. Harper is Prime Minister. But if it ever does come this way, I'll seek out Israeli labels and buy their products.

Mr. Harper calls a spade a spade:

 

[Omnis]

Is it just me, or does the collection of Canadian and Israeli flags resemble a barber pole?

Now I want to see a yarmulke on hockey hair.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Baloney, let's not pretend this has anything to do with choice shall we. It's plain and simple, singling out Israel so that Jew haters, anti-semites, Palestinian sympathizers and the misguided and misinformed can more easily identify what comes from Israel, and hopefully impact Israeli imports in a negative fashion. It's economic persecution under the guise under some misguided notion of equality or fairplay or some other such nonsense.

And yes, it is a modern version of this, IMO of course:

Not that I'm defending @F1jocker12 ... but isn't this already normal practice for most foods? I don't see the problem in expanding the scheme to other goods providing that the same is done for all countries.

It rather reminds me of the time when South African goods were boycotted by customers. Ultimately consumers should have full disclosure about the nature/origin of any goods they buy and thereby be able to make informed choices according to their own views.

What you suggest with that picture is that another holocaust may be set in motion, personally I think that's a little strong.

I know exactly what is real,my father lost a father,I lost a Grandfather and millions and millions and millions suffered at the hands of some 🤬 idiot a horrible fate that no one could think as fathomable. So for you to sit here mashing away on your 🤬 keyboard like some child with an agenda in the sandbox, makes me think you don't remember history. I think the only boycott should be you,but then again,many people gave you this freedom. So continue on.

So, rather like my own grandfather, your grandfather died in a fight for freedom... yet you would refuse freedom of choice and prefer to silence a member who asks for it rather than just debate with them?

Again, the parallel to Nazi Germany is possibly over-strong, in my opinion. If freedom-of-choice is so heinous and if information is so poisonous... what did we gain in the fight?

While we might not all share @F1jocker12's views (I find them very odd at times) it seems sensible to allow consumers information about what they buy so that they can make their own free choices.

 

[squadops]

I don't think US will do something like that... I don't know... If they go that way in Europe, Like I said, wont have an economical impact, as much as the perception of those labled products will have... Imagine children asking their parents why those products are labeled, and embarassed parents explaining in very few words it is because that country's crimes...
If you want to buy products... http://walizahid.com/2014/07/gaza-boycott-israeli-products/. I recommend Toblerone chocolate.

I didn't mean to imply the U.S. government would boycott goods, if anything I'd worry more about local stores refusing to stock items making shopping inconvenient. I buy what I need/want and I don't need PC do gooders bringing their agenda to my attention while trying to provide for my family. Looking at what the U.S. spends the most money on I'm having a hard time thinking gem diamond, pharmaceutical preparations, or medicinal equipment buyers would be checking barcodes in their purchasing decisions.

Your scenario of the embarrassed parent is far fetched, do you have children or do you actually think they care about the label on their frosted flakes?

While we might not all share @F1jocker12's views (I find them very odd at times) it seems sensible to allow consumers information about what they buy so that they can make their own free choices.

Indeed. Something that bothers me here in the U.S. is lack of food labeling, I would like to know the origin, nationally as well as internationally, and I'd like to know if it's GMO, farmed, free ranged, wild caught etc. I'd like to see that instead of having to search around and ask. As I posted earlier in the thread...

I'd be in favor of all product labeling to include origin, more so to identify quality rather than for political protesting. That article gave me a chuckle, doesn't the EU have more important issues to consider?

 

[killerjimbag]

To Flocker et all, unfortunately he was shot down over Germany,no remains,but thankyou.There is not enough flowers in the world for all the people that needlessly die do to wars and shortsightedness.No matter what religion or ethnicity.
My home town is the home of Colonel John McCrae he wrote this poem in the trenches in WW1 read this and hopefully pass it on to the rest of the world.

In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie,
In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

John McCrae