Israel - Palestine discussion thread

[Scaff]

Good luck finding Jews who take the Talmud literally, let alone that line. You're also neglecting the fact that Muslims believe their book is the direct word of God, with no alteration. This is quite different from the other religions, including Judaism.

Orthodox Jews do believe the Torah is the direct word of God and that the Rabbinic interpretations within the Talmud should be followed.

http://www.jewishmuseummilwaukee.org/docs/educators/Judaism_FAQ.pdf

As such they are pretty much on the same level of rabid, dogmaic commitment as those who Muslims who believe that every word of the Koran should be followed literally (down to the inane dress code, limited rights for women, etc.).

 

[squadops]

I'm sure Netanyahu's reason for proposing The Gemara as a basis for the Israeli legal system, as well as making The Hebrew calendar the official calendar of Israel, has nothing to do with legalizing the rape of 3 year old girls. He is solidifying the road to a two state solution which you(F1jocker) conceed to be the best option for peace.

I find it astonishing that among those who call on Israel to make concessions in Judea and Samaria due to the self-evident desire to avoid a binational state, there are those who oppose defining the State of Israel as the national state of the Jewish People.

"One cannot favor the establishment of a Palestinian national state in order to maintain the Jewish character of the State of Israel and – at the same time – oppose recognizing that the State of Israel as the national state of the Jewish People. Supporting the establishment of a Palestinian national state and opposing the recognition of the Jewish national state undermines – over the long-term – the State of Israel's very right to exist.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/180147#.VSblENxM5Y4

Having the state recognized as Jewish is one less step discussed during peace talks, if The Palestinians are truly interested in a two state solution then the PA is going to have to accept it, why should it mater so much as long as they get there own state out of the deal?

 

[F1jocker12]

I'm sure Netanyahu's reason for proposing The Gemara as a basis for the Israeli legal system, as well as making The Hebrew calendar the official calendar of Israel, has nothing to do with legalizing the rape of 3 year old girls. He is solidifying the road to a two state solution which you(F1jocker) conceed to be the best option for peace.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/180147#.VSblENxM5Y4

Having the state recognized as Jewish is one less step discussed during peace talks, if The Palestinians are truly interested in a two state solution then the PA is going to have to accept it, why should it mater so much as long as they get there own state out of the deal?

Mentioning the Talmud in correlation with the state of Israel legal system is ..... well .... highly disturbing. The Talmud is the fuel for the most aggressive form of extremism and interfering religion with the national legal system will be a tragedy.

Two state solution in Bibi's mind is a no. If I want to defend his position I will give him this:

We are slicing the lox very thin here, but the distinction does have some meaning. There is a meaningful difference between circumstantial opposition to a Palestinian state and philosophical opposition. Netanyahu is not explicitly arguing, as many of his right-wing American supporters and Israeli coalition partners do, that Israel must maintain its occupation into perpetuity. Instead, he is making a version of the same objection he makes to an Iran nuclear deal — that his own negotiating strategy will somehow lead to a “better deal.” It is certainly true that the current Palestinian government does not present an ideal negotiating partner. But what evidence do we have that Netanyahu actually believes this, that he has some strategy to produce this better deal?

from
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2015/03/netanyahu-dont-listen-to-my-explicit-promise.html
but is obvious he is not interested.

If Netanyahu is waiting to negotiate peace with a Palestinian government that has run on a Zionist platform, then his “not now” position is not meaningfully different from “never.”

Regarding the peace negotiations, I've already commented as an answer to you specifically with my #1463 input. I think the illegal settlements issue will be a lot more difficult to resolve, because most of the settlements are built on land that is not inside the 1967 borders, especially in West Bank. Under the International law, if you aquire land after a military conflict you will need to give it back when the conflict ends, and equali important, you are not allowed to move civilians inside that territory as colonists.

Of course, Netanyahu’s supporters maintain that the 2013 negotiations failed on account of the Palestinians, who walked away from the table over such demands as Netanyahu refusing to stop building new settlements. Abrams objects to Obama’s complaint that Netanyahu is “expanding settlements” on the grounds that there’s been “a 52 percent drop inhousing starts in the West Bank in 2014 versus 2013.” I invite readers to have their dog poop on Abrams's lawn every day, and when he objects, reduce the frequency to every other day, and then await his gratitude.

Those are violations of international law, but israeli argue that is going to be impossible to remove half a million illegal settlers back to Israel and make them leave their illegal "homes". If you want to understand why Israel have chosen to move those settlers in the first place, you will need to look into the Zionistic legacy. I can help you with that.

Be patient, watch and listen to what Martyn Indyk had to say about the last missed opportunity. The problem was not with PA refusing to recognise Israel, because is common sense that, once two state solution will be adopted, they will accept the second state, other than Theirs, as Israel. Again is basic logic, and anybody that is insisting otherwise is wasting time. The discutions revolve around the refugees right to return (now we see how those camps are being attacked by ISIS), the access to water sources and the illegal settlements.

 

[squadops]

Mentioning the Talmud in correlation with the state of Israel legal system is ..... well .... highly disturbing. The Talmud is the fuel for the most aggressive form of extremism and interfering religion with the national legal system will be a tragedy.

I disagree, it's symbolic, I can't see the government's function changing at all tbh.

Two state solution in Bibi's mind is a no. If I want to defend his position I will give him this:

from
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2015/03/netanyahu-dont-listen-to-my-explicit-promise.html
but is obvious he is not interested.

I believe he was sincere in 2009 when he gave this speech, before 2009, and even now.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/full-text-of-netanyahu-s-foreign-policy-speech-at-bar-ilan-1.277922

I told President Obama in Washington, if we get a guarantee of demilitarization, and if the Palestinians recognize Israel as the Jewish state, we are ready to agree to a real peace agreement, a demilitarized Palestinian state side by side with the Jewish state.

The truth is that in the area of our homeland, in the heart of our Jewish Homeland, now lives a large population of Palestinians. We do not want to rule over them. We do not want to run their lives. We do not want to force our flag and our culture on them. In my vision of peace, there are two free peoples living side by side in this small land, with good neighborly relations and mutual respect, each with its flag, anthem and government, with neither one threatening its neighbor's security and existence.

How do you figure the opposite is obvious, are you basing that solely on what he said right before the last election? Politics that we've all already been through.

Regarding the peace negotiations, I've already commented as an answer to you specifically with my #1463 input. I think the illegal settlements issue will be a lot more difficult to resolve, because most of the settlements are built on land that is not inside the 1967 borders, especially in West Bank. Under the International law, if you aquire land after a military conflict you will need to give it back when the conflict ends, and equali important, you are not allowed to move civilians inside that territory as colonists.

I don't know why you hold so tight to this 1967 idea of yours but again, it is something we've all been around in this thread. You speak of the green line which was nothing more than a front line of a war.

Those are violations of international law, but israeli argue that is going to be impossible to remove half a million illegal settlers back to Israel and make them leave their illegal "homes". If you want to understand why Israel have chosen to move those settlers in the first place, you will need to look into the Zionistic legacy. I can help you with that.

They don't argue that, in fact...

A great many people are telling us that withdrawal is the key to peace with the Palestinians. But the fact is that all our withdrawals were met by huge waves of suicide bombers.

We tried withdrawal by agreement, withdrawal without an agreement, we tried partial withdrawal and full withdrawal. In 2000, and once again last year, the government of Israel, based on good will, tried a nearly complete withdrawal, in exchange for the end of the conflict, and were twice refused.

We withdrew from the Gaza Strip to the last centimeter, we uprooted dozens of settlements and turned thousands of Israelis out of their homes. In exchange, what we received were missiles raining down on our cities, our towns and our children. The argument that withdrawal would bring peace closer did not stand up to the test of reality.

They were and I believe still willing to...

The territorial issues will be discussed in a permanent agreement. Till then we have no intention to build new settlements or set aside land for new settlements. But there is a need to have people live normal lives and let mothers and fathers raise their children like everyone in the world. The settlers are not enemies of peace. They are our brothers and sisters.

Be patient, watch and listen to what Martyn Indyk had to say about the last missed opportunity. The problem was not with PA refusing to recognise Israel, because is common sense that, once two state solution will be adopted, they will accept the second state, other than Theirs, as Israel. Again is basic logic, and anybody that is insisting otherwise is wasting time. The discutions revolve around the refugees right to return (now we see how those camps are being attacked by ISIS), the access to water sources and the illegal settlements.

Be patient? ok, I like being treated like an eager pupil of a guru lol, I've learned how to walk on wax paper...
It is still very much a problem that PA refuses to recognize Israel, common sense dictates the Palestinians need to prove their sincere on that. Yes the refugee situation needs to be addressed, Israel is willing to work that out because they realize they had to go through the same thing, in the same place.

For this to have practical meaning, we need a clear agreement to solve the Palestinian refugee problem outside of the borders of the State of Israel. For it is clear to all that the demand to settle the Palestinian refugees inside of Israel, contradicts the continued existence of the State of Israel as the state of the Jewish People. We must solve the problem of the Arab refugees. And I believe that it is possible to solve it. Because we have proven that we ourselves solved a similar problem. Tiny Israel took in the hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees from Arab countries who were uprooted from their homes.

Therefore, justice and logic dictates that the problem of the Palestinian refugees must be solved outside the borders of the State of Israel. There is broad national agreement on this.

I'm surprised you have not mentioned the release of prisoners, other than that you sound almost exactly as Abbas. I found a good piece regarding peace talks between Kerry, Abbas, and Netanyahu. I'll just leave a few quotes of it and the source as the post is running long. I think it reads pretty accurate of what happened at the time(must have been 2013).

Like his presidency, Abbas’s negotiations with Kerry over the renewal of direct talks with Israel had been a series of letdowns. He demanded a total Israeli settlement freeze; Kerry said he could get him only a “major slowdown.” He asked that talks be based on the 1967 lines, the frontiers that existed before Israel gained control of the West Bank; Kerry offered merely a letter endorsing that position. He requested the release of 104 Palestinians imprisoned before the 1993 Oslo Accords; Kerry said he'd do his best. And yet, as Abbas began his statement to the leadership that night, he argued that the Palestinians should resume negotiations. “I know this deal isn’t perfect,” he said, “but I want to give it a chance. John Kerry is prepared to invest a serious effort.”

it was now nearly two o’clock in the morning—he came around. He reached into his suit pocket and took out one of the index cards that he often carried with him to take notes. He scribbled on it—“104 prisoners for no-UN”—and authorized Erekat to present the offer to Kerry the following morning in Amman. “And tell him to give me that letter,” Abbas added.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118751/how-israel-palestine-peace-deal-died

 

[F1jocker12]

I disagree, it's symbolic, I can't see the government's function changing at all tbh.



I believe he was sincere in 2009 when he gave this speech, before 2009, and even now.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/full-text-of-netanyahu-s-foreign-policy-speech-at-bar-ilan-1.277922


How do you figure the opposite is obvious, are you basing that solely on what he said right before the last election? Politics that we've all already been through.


I don't know why you hold so tight to this 1967 idea of yours but again, it is something we've all been around in this thread. You speak of the green line which was nothing more than a front line of a war.


They don't argue that, in fact...

They were and I believe still willing to...




Be patient? ok, I like being treated like an eager pupil of a guru lol, I've learned how to walk on wax paper...
It is still very much a problem that PA refuses to recognize Israel, common sense dictates the Palestinians need to prove their sincere on that. Yes the refugee situation needs to be addressed, Israel is willing to work that out because they realize they had to go through the same thing, in the same place.


I'm surprised you have not mentioned the release of prisoners, other than that you sound almost exactly as Abbas. I found a good piece regarding peace talks between Kerry, Abbas, and Netanyahu. I'll just leave a few quotes of it and the source as the post is running long. I think it reads pretty accurate of what happened at the time(must have been 2013).


http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118751/how-israel-palestine-peace-deal-died

I hope you are correct by saying that Bibi really wants the 2 states, because that is the only solution to the mess, but what I see is how he plays both sides. In his mind he thinks he can play the Jewish extremists into voting for him and keeping him as PM, and play the International Community, leaded by US, into thinking he wants Palestine to be a state. At this point in time he is not trusted by the International Community and that is really bad for the peace process, because the only way left is the UN Resolutions which, of course, will create friction inside Israel (against the idea of being forced to accept Palestinians right to their state), as a punishment, and between US and Israel.

I asked you to be patient, because the video I've posted is relatively long, and if you do not want to pay attention, is quite boring. Static image with an old guy not willing to entertain anybody in the audience. For more then 50 minutes. But what he says is gold information.

You are giving only the Jewish side of the story (little theatrical under that link), I offered you an American mediators point of view (the middle). He is an American Jew but, by representing US in the process, had a different perspective of the whole thing. Respectable diplomat, Mr.Indyk knows from inside out how everything was negotiated, and he tells how Israelis are at fault, by announcing more settlements during the negotiations. Essentially, Bibi tried to play "good cop, bad cop", instructing his party to push for more settlements, while he was pretending how he wants peace but Likuds political need (over his head) is to build more settlements.

For Bibi, the negotiation focus is how to annoy the Palestinian side into refusing discussions. After such a move happens, the well supported Jewish oriented media can start the tormenting type of manipulation and infinite speculations. In my opinion the mediators, the American ones in particular, are the ones to listen to if you want to stay away from speculations.

I remember at some point, in one of the video debates I've recommended here, one of the questions was - "why was there only one Israeli prisoner released for so many Palestinian prisoners?"... for which the answer was very simple - Because Palestinians had only one prisoner. That also shows you how disproportionate the conflict is.

 

[squadops]

Read over that second link I posted above, it's not one sided it's more of a narrative. I'm not one sided either, I think the whole mid east is a nightmare

 

[F1jocker12]

I am not saying you are one sided... I am saying the source you are using is one sided... Big difference...

Support for Israel has been another strong theme in The New Republic. According to Martin Peretz, owner of The New Republic, "Support for Israel is deep down an expression of America's best view of itself."[13] According to journalism professor Eric Alterman, “Nothing has been as consistent about the past 34 years of The New Republic as the magazine's devotion to Peretz's own understanding of what is good for Israel…It is really not too much to say that almost all of Peretz's political beliefs are subordinate to his commitment to Israel's best interests, and these interests as Peretz defines them almost always involve more war

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Republic

I agree... Middle East is an it will stay a nightmare... Israel has and wants lots of weapons, and the rest has lots of oil for sale....

 

[squadops]

The new republic article I got from your link What I showed was a speech transcript which cannot be biased.

From this

Netanyahu was recently presented with the chance to negotiate with the most moderate leadership in Palestinian history. If you read Ben Birnbaum and Amir Tibon’s thoroughly reported account of the 2013 negotiations,

New York Mag you posted.

 

[F1jocker12]

The new republic article I got from your link What I showed was a speech transcript which cannot be biased.

From this



New York Mag you posted.

I hoped you've noticed how, before I used those quotations, I mentioned

If I want to defend his position I will give him this:

because I moved myself from the middle (American perspective) towards Netanyahu's side.
For better understanding, most of the time I try to place myself on the other side and look at the elements from a different perspective. It is good to try to argue in other sides favor against yourself, to make sure your structure is not flooded.
With all that being said, the moment I tried to understand Israelis motives for aggression, stepping on the that side offered few new perspectives.
That's why, I say again, if I'll stay on Bibi's side, I'll try to make the argument of "circumstantial' vs. "philosophical" which the source I used tries to explain. The authors inspiration and argument comes from his analysis of the story under your link, which, from journalistic point of view, is fiction. Why? Because is no way any of those two authors (Ben Birnbaum and Amir Tibon) would have been able to witness and capture those private dialogues and events. It is an interesting narrative, but has no journalistic value.
Those are the kind of sources which (when used) will make Bibi look more moderate...
Does this make sense to you?

 

[squadops]

To me it just looked like they were trying to make Kerry look smart(which he is not) and grab the readers attention like a james bond flic.

 

[F1jocker12]

Right... James Bond inspired by real events... Do you know how many people fell for a well written screenplay like that? Psychologically is twisting your mind, and makes you think the reality was exactly like that... The reality, on the other hand, is boring, cold and frustrating.

 

[F1jocker12]

As I remember, we were accusing Iran of making fun of the Holocaust, right?

So, let's try to understand how the state of Israel is treating the Holocaust surviviors.... Just to have a clear image of the cruel reality...

A day before Holocaust Remembrance Day, Ynet took a closer look at the status of Holocaust survivors living in Israel and found that, despite government initiatives, Holocaust survivors are living in a state of poverty and neglect.

Many survivors still have appalling living conditions, face poverty, and have difficulty receiving government aid and financial help because of bureaucracy.A closer look at the cases of thousands of Holocaust survivors shows that the government plan has failed to save tens of thousands of survivors from a life of poverty.

This was exactly the case for Silvia Simonovich, who will celebrate her 100th birthday in September. During World War II, Simonovich lived in hiding while her husband was sent to forced labor. Social Security decreased her supplementary income after she received a one-time allowance from the Finance Ministry.
Silvia's daughter Leah says her mother suffers from Osteoporosis that began during World War II. "One arm gives and the other arm takes and in the end you're left empty handed," says Leah. "This results in less hours of care as that is how it's funded."

For example, if a survivor signifies that they survived by hiding or with a false identity which put their life at risk, they do not get a recommendation to claim article 2 of the Claims Conference (The Conference on Jewish Material Claims Against Germany) which enables them to receive a regular allowance which also include benefits from the Finance Ministry.

Thousands of survivors face poverty despite 'unprecedented' plan (jewish source)

I guess, this is the kind of the dark humor Israel is punishing the Holocaust survivors with today. So what is harsher, Irans caricatures or survivors life inside Israel?

 

[Johnnypenso]

I remember at some point, in one of the video debates I've recommended here, one of the questions was - "why was there only one Israeli prisoner released for so many Palestinian prisoners?"... for which the answer was very simple - Because Palestinians had only one prisoner. That also shows you how disproportionate the conflict is.

The more simple answer is that Israeli soldiers are many times better at what they

As I remember, we were accusing Iran of making fun of the Holocaust, right?

So, let's try to understand how the state of Israel is treating the Holocaust surviviors.... Just to have a clear image of the cruel reality...









Thousands of survivors face poverty despite 'unprecedented' plan

I guess, this the kind of the dark humor Israel is punishing the Holocaust survivors with today. So what is harsher, Irans caricatures or survivors life inside Israel?

I imagine if the opposite were true and Holocaust survivors were given extra special treatment and extra money and healthcare from the government, you'd have a "gotcha" post about how poorly Israel treats the poor Arabs and how they take money that should be used to support the poor Arabs and give it to the Holocaust survivors.

By the way, since you brought up the Holocaust, do you really believe 6 million Jews and 11 million people in total were killed in the Holocaust?

 

[F1jocker12]

The more simple answer is that Israeli soldiers are many times better at what they

I imagine if the opposite were true and Holocaust survivors were given extra special treatment and extra money and healthcare from the government, you'd have a "gotcha" post about how poorly Israel treats the poor Arabs and how they take money that should be used to support the poor Arabs and give it to the Holocaust survivors.

By the way, since you brought up the Holocaust, do you really believe 6 million Jews and 11 million people in total were killed in the Holocaust?

You should rest your case... It is a long time ago lost one... How do we expect Israel (as a government) to understand the Palestinians as long as they are neglecting their own people they should profoundly respect (if not for surviving the war, then for being their elders)?

 

[Johnnypenso]

You should rest your case... It is a long time ago lost one... How do we expect Israel (as a government) to understand the Palestinians as long as they are neglecting their own people they should profoundly respect (if not for surviving the war, then for being their elders)?

As I said, if the fact were reversed you would still condemn Israel no matter what. You are so blatantly anti-Israel that I can't take any of your points bashing Israel seriously, even if there is a grain of truth to many of them. About that holocaust then?

 

[squadops]

Sounds no different than any other large government stumbling over their own feet while trying to do good to me. My Country and our vets treatment comes to mind but, anyway...

Israel took on an unbelievable amount of these survivors as well as refugees from all over the globe, in an unprecedented short amount of time. Sure they could probably do better, so could all of us. I'm not seeing the comparison to understanding Palestinians however, is this not why Netanyahu asks how Palestinian's refugees will be handled in a two state solution?

 

[F1jocker12]

Sounds no different than any other large government stumbling over their own feet while trying to do good to me. My Country and our vets treatment comes to mind but, anyway...

Israel took on an unbelievable amount of these survivors as well as refugees from all over the globe, in an unprecedented short amount of time. Sure they could probably do better, so could all of us. I'm not seeing the comparison to understanding Palestinians however, is this not why Netanyahu asks how Palestinian's refugees will be handled in a two state solution?

You are totally correct regarding the vets... but do not forget how, the first moment you say something against Israels policies, you will vehemently be accused of being a Holocaust denier (no connection whatsoever anyway), by the same people that neglect the real WWII suvivors... Really pathetic...

Numbers of survivors? 1997 data indicated an initial estmate of

where FSU stands for Former Soviet Union - from http://globalfire.tv/nj/03en/history/holostats.htm

The two state solution is slowly dying...

Should the occupation continue, as seems inevitable, then the PA is doomed to collapse. Though the Palestinian Authority was initially created by the Oslo Accords in the 1990s as a step toward Palestinian independence, Israeli actions and policies since have distorted it into the opposite: a tool of perpetuating Israeli control. Palestinians are not blind to this.
"Among Palestinians, the legitimacy of the Palestinian Authority is at a real nadir," Thrall said. He warned that rapidly growing numbers of Palestinians are questioning the "entire Oslo structure" of partial Palestinian self-rule under the Israeli occupation. "More are arguing that it's not worth it," he said. "Their voices are getting louder."

The Palestinian Authority will either collapse under the political weight of enabling Israel's occupation — opening up a vacuum that would almost certainly be filled by violent extremist groups — or begin gradually withdrawing from its cooperation with Israel and its acknowledgment of the Oslo Accord rules governing the occupation.

When the inevitable collapse of the Palestinian Authority forces Israel to choose between withdrawing entirely and replacing the Palestinian Authority with more direct rule, it seems likely that Israel would not choose withdrawal.
Whether that means attempting to administer the West Bank as a 21st-century colonial power, or to simply annex it altogether, it would have dire implications for Israel's democracy and its place in the world — both of which are already at risk.

From
Israel's dark future
Democracy in the Jewish state is doomed

 

[squadops]

 

[F1jocker12]

As a result of the continuous Israeli settlements agression inside the Occupied Territories, European Community is intending to implement a "new" kind of economic sanction.

Sixteen EU states have said products made by Israeli settlers should be marked in shops so that European consumers can boycott them if they want to.

They noted that “expansion of Israeli illegal settlements … threatens the prospect of just and final peace agreement”.

They add that EU consumers have a right to “not being misled by false information” and “confidence in knowing the origin of goods they are purchasing”.

This is an extreme initiative to try to affect Israels economy, and it allignes to many other protesting forms adopted by concerned people around the world. One of the easiest ones is to recognise the barcode on the products sold everywhere.

He noted that the retail code, which is being put together by the European Commission on the basis of existing consumer and trade legislation, isn’t ready yet.

The EU foreign service also said, in a statement on Friday, that “the issue of labelling is not new” and stems from a 2012 EU decision to “fully and effectively implement EU legislation applicable to settlement products".

Ignoring the awarning

For its part, Israel claims the settlements are legal and that their expansion isn’t to blame for lack of peace.

from EU states renew call to label Israeli settler goods

I already know how many, many of Israels policies defenders, will shout out loud how this initiative is similar to putting the yellow star of David on the chest of jewish people during the WWII.

But very few of you know how, the Jews've done the same thing in 1933 to Germany, to protest german authorities abuses against jewish minority.

more info at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Nazi_boycott_of_1933

 

[Johnnypenso]

As a result of the continuous Israeli settlements agression inside the Occupied Territories, European Community is intending to implement a "new" kind of economic sanction.



This is an extreme initiative to try to affect Israels economy, and it allignes to many other protesting forms adopted by concerned people around the world. One of the easiest ones is to recognise the barcode on the products sold everywhere.

Ignoring the awarning


from EU states renew call to label Israeli settler goods

I already know how many, many of Israels policies defenders, will shout out loud how this initiative is similar to putting the yellow star of David on the chest of jewish people during the WWII.

But very few of you know how, the Jews did the same thing in 1933 to Germany, in protest to german authorities abuses against jewish minority.

more info at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Nazi_boycott_of_1933

Despicable.

 

[Dennisch]

Ah yes, another one of those half arsed attempts to actually do nothing. Could have been dreamed up by the UN.
Either take real action or do nothing. This is almost nothing.

I love politics.

 

[F1jocker12]

Young Israeli refusing to serve in IDF, jailed for 30 and 10 days. They expect to serve additional terms.



from
http://972mag.com/watch-two-conscientious-objectors-sent-to-military-prison/105690/

 

[Tornado]

It should be pretty easy to pick out Israeli products if all of their barcodes are covered in blood.

 

[F1jocker12]

It should be pretty easy to pick out Israeli products if all of their barcodes are covered in blood.

That will be a little too extreme...

 

[Dennisch]

Young Israeli refusing to serve in IDF, jailed for 30 and 10 days. They expect to serve additional terms.



from
http://972mag.com/watch-two-conscientious-objectors-sent-to-military-prison/105690/

So what?

When there still was a draft in the Netherlands, it was suspended in 1997, the refusal would net you a standard sentence of 19 months. Unless you were a hippie or Jehovah, then you could be relieved of the draft.

 

[Tornado]

So what?

When there still was a draft in the Netherlands, it was suspended in 1997, the refusal would net you a standard sentence of 19 months. Unless you were a hippie or Jehovah, then you could be relieved of the draft.

This just in: Compulsory military duty is mandatory. More on this news as it develops in every Vietnam movie ever made.

 

[Dennisch]

This just in: Compulsory military duty is mandatory. More on this news as it develops in every Vietnam movie ever made.

That's truly shocking news, Anderson! We now go to Wolf to hear more about this story!

 

[squadops]

The idea of braking the law landing you in jail is outrageous, ironically enough braking the law before coming of age will earn you a pass.

I'd be in favor of all product labeling to include origin, more so to identify quality rather than for political protesting. That article gave me a chuckle, doesn't the EU have more important issues to consider?

 

[Dennisch]

doesn't the EU have more important issues to consider?

I heard there was something going on in the Mediterranean, something with fugitives and sinking boats, but it's not that important for the EU.

 

[Tornado]

They already banned all the lightbulbs and gave Greece billions of dollars. What else is there?