Israel - Palestine discussion thread

[F1jocker12]

All you had to say was, "No Johnny, I don't want to discuss any specifics, I'd rather speak in generalities and flood this thread with links that no one will watch"

Yes Johnny, those were rethoricall questions... I didn't expect an imediate positive reaction from you... It is a hard choice to make, I understand and I respect that!

Johnny be aware... canadian citizens got killed too... by the IDF...

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a17086/death-of-paeta-hess-von-kruedener-010713/

http://www.cbc.ca/news2/interactives/letters/peacekeepers/

Here is another fresh piece of news..

IDF targeted UN peacekeepers in Lebanon – Spanish military report

The paper published the testimony of another Spanish soldier, Sergeant Julio Xavier Garcia, who said that shells initially fell about 500 meters north of the UN post and then they "corrected the trajectory towards the position." Garcia added that he took cover along the watchtower "to clearly see it was a fixed shot” and that “falling projectiles were getting closer."

"The first projectiles hit behind the mosque, near Majidiye, and were slowly falling further to the right, closer and closer,” another witness, soldier Christian Martinez said, adding that the last two explosions were very close: “one fell behind the concrete wall of the parking and the second directly hit the main tower."

The Spanish newspaper also quoted a UN report which said that Israeli forces had warned at 11:39am local time that UN peacekeepers should remain in their positions and avoid going outside, without providing any further details.

According to the report, the Israeli army fired on the area at least 118 artillery shells, 90 mortar grenades and five projectiles between 11:48am and 1:43pm local time.

 

[squadops]

Lets go directly to the U.N. to see what they have to say about this January incident.

Underlying tensions and unresolved issues continue to beleaguer the Blue Line area. A recent cross-border exchange of fire between Hizbollah and Israel Defense Forces (IDF) resulted in the deaths of two IDF soldiers and Israel’s immediate retaliation. A UN peacekeeper was also killed in the ensuing violence.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=50107#.VSRSCtxM5Y4

Further, the Council voiced its deep concern following the recent incidents which occurred across the Blue Line separating Lebanon and Israel, and in the area of operations of the UN Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL).

“The Security Council stresses that such violence and the presence of unauthorized weapons in the UNIFIL area of operations violates resolution 1701 and the cessation of hostilities,” the statement said, referring to the resolution that ended the month-long war between Israel and the Lebanese group Hizbollah in 2006.

“It underlines the risk that such events could lead to a new conflict that none of the parties or the region can afford.”

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=50374#.VSRRA9xM5Y4

You'll notice I didn't cherry pick these articles, The U.N.'s concern? "the presence of unauthorized weapons in the UNIFIL area of operations violates resolution 1701"

 

[F1jocker12]

Lets go directly to the U.N. to see what they have to say about this January incident.


http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=50107#.VSRSCtxM5Y4


http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=50374#.VSRRA9xM5Y4

You'll notice I didn't cherry pick these articles, The U.N.'s concern? "the presence of unauthorized weapons in the UNIFIL area of operations violates resolution 1701"

I totally agree with UN, but you know what the big problem is? Why is IDF on purposly targeting UN posts? Aren't Israelis supposed to fight their enemies, and if so, are the Israelis considering the UN peace corps the enemy?
I agree with the mistakes and the whole mess in the region, done by all the parts involved (thats why I consider disecting the conflict, at this point, is unproductive), but UN peace corps are not involved in any way. Those soldiers are there to maintain peace, and IDF on purposly targets them as they do with the enemy, which means, Israel is fighting against UN peace corps as well....

Question is, why is IDF repeatedly targeting United Nations Interim Force peace keepers?

 

[squadops]

The IDF is not killing U.N. Peace Keepers on purpose.

 

[Johnnypenso]

The IDF is not killing U.N. Peace Keepers on purpose.

I'm sure F1Joker has a video link produced in Iran that proves the Jews have 3 heads and slaughter UN Peacekeepers by the dozen but cover it up with a Zionist conspiracy and the help of the CIA and Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper.

 

[F1jocker12]

The IDF is not killing U.N. Peace Keepers on purpose.

Really? How do you explain this?

The paper published the testimony of another Spanish soldier, Sergeant Julio Xavier Garcia, who said that shells initially fell about 500 meters north of the UN post and then they "corrected the trajectory towards the position." Garcia added that he took cover along the watchtower "to clearly see it was a fixed shot” and that “falling projectiles were getting closer."

"The first projectiles hit behind the mosque, near Majidiye, and were slowly falling further to the right, closer and closer,” another witness, soldier Christian Martinez said, adding that the last two explosions were very close: “one fell behind the concrete wall of the parking and the second directly hit the main tower."

The Spanish newspaper also quoted a UN report which said that Israeli forces had warned at 11:39am local time that UN peacekeepers should remain in their positions and avoid going outside, without providing any further details.

According to the report, the Israeli army fired on the area at least 118 artillery shells, 90 mortar grenades and five projectiles between 11:48am and 1:43pm local time

 

[squadops]

Poor journalism presented by a State ran Russian propaganda organization with obvious hatred towards the west.

 

[F1jocker12]

Poor journalism presented by a State ran Russian propaganda organization with obvious hatred towards the west.

Ooops
Israeli Source Acknowledges IDF Fire Killed Spanish UN Soldier


Leaked Report: Spanish Peacekeepers Accuse IDF of Targeting Them

 

[squadops]

Oooops, where does anyone credible say it was an intentional act.

 

[F1jocker12]

Check the spanish soldiers statements.....

Another Spanish soldier, Sergeant Julio Xavier Garcia, echoed Sanchez, saying the shells initially fell about 500 metres (yards) north of the UN post and then they "corrected the trajectory towards the position."

A third soldier said fragmentation bombs were used in the attack and that the shelling finally appeared to target the main watch tower.

 

[squadops]

That does not convince me, nor most likely, the majority of GTP members active in this thread. Israel does attack terrorist groups in Yemen when provoked though.

 

[F1jocker12]

That does not convince me, nor most likely, the majority of GTP members active in this thread. Israel does attack terrorist groups in Yemen when provoked though.

I am not here to convince anybody, but now, at least, you know about "the other" reality.

Like I said, only peace will drastically (I am not crazy to say it will stop) decrese the unnecessary killing. Realistically, peace is the only solution, and all worlds effort should focus towards that.

I really appreciate your interest for the topic.

 

[Blitz24]

If Hamas and the PLO said they would demilitarize, control and actively eliminate terrorist groups in their territory and recognized the existence of Israel as a state I'm sure it would be a good way to start.

 

[F1jocker12]

If Hamas and the PLO said they would demilitarize, control and actively eliminate terrorist groups in their territory and recognized the existence of Israel as a state I'm sure it would be a good way to start.

I know how most of you believe the Middle East conflict is never gonna end unless Palestinian suporters wont stop fighting against Israel. After so much confusion, misleading and suffering, you will think that fight is absurd.


I also know how, after so many years of overwhelmingly biased one sided reporting on the conflict, just the thought of Israel doing the terror will shatter your hierarchy of values, comfort zones and minds.


But few of you know how

The Talmud is to this day the circulating heart’s blood of the Jewish religion. Whatever laws, customs or ceremonies we observe – whether we are Orthodox, Conservative, Reform or merely spasmodic sentimentalists – we follow the Talmud. It is our common law

and how

Benjamin Netanyahu publicly stated that he aims to make Israel’s legal system based on the Talmud, as it should be. In Netanyahu’s own words to the Likud party’s ultra-Orthodox member Yaakov Vider: “We will legally define the Talmud as the basis of the Israeli legal system.”

Regardless of one’s feelings about Netanyahu, his commitment to following Talmudic law and cementing Israel’s Jewish status is truly something to be admired.

I don't think any of you can deny the incredible danger of fundamentalism in any form, of religious extremism, not only in the Middle East, but all over the world and

The Talmud makes it very clear that the life of a non-Jew has no value, and that gentiles exist only to serve Jews. Sanhedrin 59a: “Murdering Goyim (a person who is not Jewish) is like killing a wild animal.” Abodah Zara 26b: “Even the best of the Gentiles should be killed.” Baba Necia 114, 6: “The Jews are human beings, but the nations of the world are not human beings but beasts.” Midrasch Talpioth, p. 225-L: “Jehovah created the non-Jew in human form so that the Jew would not have to be served by beasts. The non-Jew is consequently an animal in human form, and condemned to serve the Jew day and night.”

Also

If goyim cannot serve Jews, then they should be exterminated. We allow Americans, Australians, Canadians, and Europeans to exist because they serve Jews and they serve Israel – and, when they get out of line, we attack them, like we did to the Americans when we sunk theirUSS Liberty. In the words of former Israeli Knesset member Yossi Sarid, “We control US politicians like marionettes.” Countries like the US, Sweden, and Australia play valuable roles not only in protecting Israel, but also in serving as dumping grounds (or garbage cans) where Israel can send Sudanese, Syrians, and other subhuman waste who seek asylum in Israel.

How dangerous are these statements? Why are we concentrating only on Hezbollah, Hamas or Khomeini's aggressive language, and not looking a little closer to the insanity of Jewish fundamentalism that seems to be well implemented in the Israelis politicians minds and souls?

Israel is the Jewish state, and allowing ANY non-Jews into Israel would be unthinkable. This is precisely why, when African baboons come to Israel, they are sterilized, shoved into crude containment facilities, and eventually shipped off to gentile nations like Sweden, Canada, and Australia – as they should be. Their inferior monkey genes are not wanted anywhere in Israel, as they spread nothing but crime, destruction, ignorance, and misery.

We know how during the last decade, Israel isolated itself from the civilized world, only playing a game that is disturbingly close to what the Talmud prescribes.

If non-Jews are not able to serve Jews, then, under Talmudic law, they should be exterminated.

How can you try to implement a two state solution in the region if

The Talmud clearly states (Bammidber raba c 21 & Jalkut 772): “Every Jew, who spills the blood of the godless (non-Jews), is doing the same as making a sacrifice to God.” Isn’t it time for a mass sacrifice of ignoble “Palestinian” scum?

What we need to do is to round up all “Palestinian” cockroaches and slaughter them like cattle. We need to take immense pleasure in raping, torturing, and murdering “Palestinians.” We need to boil “Palestinians” alive in boiling human feces. We need to take “Palestinian” babies and stomp them to death in front of their parents.

We need to cut open pregnant “Palestinian” women, put their fetuses on pikes, and leave the fetus-pikes all over “Palestinian” neighbourhoods. We need to anally rape “Palestinian” women with butcher knives in broad daylight. We need to burst into “Palestinian” hospitals and butcher “Palestinian” newborns right in front of their helpless mothers.

We need to take Uzis, bust into “Palestinian” preschools, and slaughter every single “Palestinian” child and teacher inside. We need to mutilate, rape, beat, and torture “Palestinians” in public, while other “Palestinians” watch helplessly. We need to massacre “Palestinian” men, women, and children without any mercy or pity. The Talmud orders us to do so, and any Jew who disagrees has clearly never read and understood the Talmud.

I apologies if the text is disturbing enough to make you feel sick. My intention is not to make you dizzy and puke out your breakfast or lunch, but to understand how the only real democracy in the Middle East can try to implement its legislation based on this insanity.

The thing to be done about the “Palestinians” is to KILL them, exterminate them, get rid of them. How do we deal with cockroaches? We don’t argue or debate with them. We exterminate them. If we exterminate cockroaches because they destroy the foundations of our houses, why shouldn’t we also exterminte “Palestinians,” who destroy the foundations of the Jewish state of Israel? Shouldn’t “Palestinians” be treated even more harshly than cockroaches, termites, and other smaller parasites?

The only use that “Palestinians” could possibly serve would be as test material for medical experiments. Normally, we wouldn’t be able to conduct medical tests on humans if those tests cause significant pain. But, since “Palestinians” aren’t humans, we can cause as much pain as we want to them. We can inject “Palestinian” children with unstable chemicals, we can chop open pregnant “Palestinian” women, we can strip the flesh off of “Palestinian” babies – we can do whatever we want to these worthless subhuman vermin

Could there be anything more satisfying than the helpless screams of a “Palestinian” child as it’s torn apart by Jewish doctors? I certainly can’t imagine anything more enjoyable.

And a lot more disturbing element is that, the article where this quotes are coming from is written by an Australian jewish employment lawyer, writer and presenter, company director, entrepreneur, campaigner, who says

I myself will not hesitate to move to Israel, join the IDF, and take an AR-15 to the nearest mosque, especiallyif on a Muslim holiday like Ramadan. I would love nothing more than to savour the screams of “Palestinians” as I invade their “safe” places and mow them down with advanced Israeli weaponry.

Death to all “Palestinians” and death to anyone who stands in the way of the Jews.

Here is the article

Understanding the Idea of Israeli Land Under Talmudic Law

EDIT
Netanyahu: Basis for Israeli Law Should be Talmud

Talmudic quotes

 

[Johnnypenso]

I know how most of you believe the Middle East conflict is never gonna end unless Palestinian suporters wont stop fighting against Israel. After so much confusion, misleading and suffering, you will think that fight is absurd.


I also know how, after so many years of overwhelmingly biased one sided reporting on the conflict, just the thought of Israel doing the terror will shatter your hierarchy of values, comfort zones and minds.


But few of you know how




and how







I don't think any of you can deny the incredible danger of fundamentalism in any form, of religious extremism, not only in the Middle East, but all over the world and





Also




How dangerous are these statements? Why are we concentrating only on Hezbollah, Hamas or Khomeini's aggressive language, and not looking a little closer to the insanity of Jewish fundamentalism that seems to be well implemented in the Israelis politicians minds and souls?





We know how during the last decade, Israel isolated itself from the civilized world, only playing a game that is disturbingly close to what the Talmud prescribes.





How can you try to implement a two state solution in the region if











I apologies if the text is disturbing enough to make you feel sick. My intention is not to make you dizzy and puke out your breakfast or lunch, but to understand how the only real democracy in the Middle East can try to implement its legislation based on this insanity.









And a lot more disturbing element is that, the article where this quotes are coming from is written by an Australian jewish employment lawyer, writer and presenter, company director, entrepreneur, campaigner, who says




Here is the article

Understanding the Idea of Israeli Land Under Talmudic Law

EDIT
Netanyahu: Basis for Israeli Law Should be Talmud

Talmudic quotes

Substitute Islam or Quran for Judaism or Talmud and its the same post. Probably Christianity and the Bible too. What's your point exactly?

 

[F1jocker12]

Substitute Islam or Quran for Judaism or Talmud and its the same post.

I'll be very carefull with that statement!

Houston-area teacher faces punishment over anti-Islam handout

Aboard Flights, Conflicts Over Seat Assignments and Religion

 

[TenEightyOne]

I'll be very carefull with that statement!

Houston-area teacher faces punishment over anti-Islam handout

And your point is what?

 

[Blitz24]

How about you, @F1jocker12, give then YOUR opinion on the situation? Do you think Israel needs to be completely dismantled and replaced with a Palestinian state?

 

[squadops]

I think he confirmed that @Blitz24 when he pretended to be James Dobbins.

 

[Blitz24]

Oh well, I guess everyone is wrong in here save for one and we are being lied to!

 

[MC CAULEY]

https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/simon-schama/two-rothschilds-and-the-land-of-israel/

I read this book a few years back. Very interesting indeed.

 

[F1jocker12]

How about you, @F1jocker12, give then YOUR opinion on the situation? Do you think Israel needs to be completely dismantled and replaced with a Palestinian state?

I also know how, after so many years of overwhelmingly biased one sided reporting on the conflict, just the thought of Israel doing the terror will shatter your hierarchy of values, comfort zones and minds.

Like I previously mentioned, first is Peace.
Two state solution, UN Security Council Resolutions implemented as soon as possible. Israels June 4th 1967 borders (the green line).
One state is realistically impossible.

And your point is what?

Substitute Islam or Quran for Judaism or Talmud and its the same

The commentator needs to provide proof for that (Quran = Talmud). Why? Because statements like

“God has given the Jews power over the possessions and blood of all nations.” Seph. Jp. 92, 1

“Even the best of the Goyim must be killed.” Abodah Zara 26b, Tosefoth

“All non-Jewesses are whores” Eben Haezar

“A Gentile girl who is three years old can be violated.” Aboda Shara 37a

“It is always a good deed to burn and destroy the non-Jewish place of worship or whatever belongs to it or is done for it, and throw the ashes into the four winds.” Schulchan Aruch, Jore Deah 143

“A Jew is permitted to rape, cheat and perjure himself; but he must take care that he is not found out, so that Israel may not suffer.” Choshen Ha’mishpat 348

from the Talmud, can be abusively offensive to our fellow muslim GTP members, and AUP states how

You will not behave in an abusive and/or hateful manner, and will not harass, threaten, nor attack any individual or any group.

Once reported it will be difficult to explain how Quran (if not proven otherwise) says

“A Gentile girl who is three years old can be violated.”

Please understand how any comment over a religion or another, can automatically be considered offensive or/and abusive. The links provided show exactly that.

 

[Blitz24]

Peace, okay. 1967 borders, okay. Are the Palestinians going to push for the right to return for "refugees" (to Israel, not necessarily to their own land)? Are the Palestinians going to be peaceful?

Answer the question. If the answers are either "No" or You simply dodging answering the question and posting more sources, then there is almost no point of you continuing to post walls of texts of articles emphasizing the bad situation. Everyone understands both sides are at fault.

 

[TenEightyOne]

The commentator needs to provide proof for that (Quran = Talmud). Why? Because statements like [...]

from the Talmud, can be abusively offensive to our fellow muslim GTP members, and AUP states how "You will not behave in an abusive and/or hateful manner, and will not harass, threaten, nor attack any individual or any group."

You're being very silly, either deliberately or through ignorance.

The Testaments, The Talmud (and Torah) and the Qu'uran are considered by different religions to be holy books, sacred texts and rules by which to worship. To my mind each of them contains enough prescriptions of violence, hatred and bigotry to violate GTP's AUP many times over. That doesn't mean that discussion or comparison of them is not allowed.

Saying to another member that you wish to enact some of those holy texts on them would be completely different. I think it's safe to say that any worshipper who would be offended by the mere mention of their holy book (or of another's holy book) probably hasn't made it this far through the forum.

 

[Spurgy 777]

@F1jocker12 As far as I'm aware, no amount of criticism of Islam (or any religion, or even any idea/opinion) can be considered abusive and against the AUP, if you find it offensive for someone to compare Islam to Judaism, that is your problem, as it's not remotely abusive.

 

[F1jocker12]

Peace, okay. 1967 borders, okay. Are the Palestinians going to push for the right to return for "refugees" (to Israel, not necessarily to their own land)? Are the Palestinians going to be peaceful?

Answer the question. If the answers are either "No" or You simply dodging answering the question and posting more sources, then there is almost no point of you continuing to post walls of texts of articles emphasizing the bad situation. Everyone understands both sides are at fault.

I've already touched on this, explaining how peace will be a chance for those palestinians to turn their lives around. They can build instead of destroy, hope will replace desperation. Hope makes you get educated and/to build and value your life as a citizen, desperation pushes you into focus how to inflict damage to your enemy by valueing your life as a martyr.

In a way, by asking if Palestinians will be peacefull, you are asking me to speculate and, believe me, that will be counterproductive. With the international community involved into rebuilding Palestine, with some Israeli companies helping (of course there are Israelis that are willing to get involved and help their brothers, the Palestinians) we can see a peacefull Middle East. I also mentioned that nobody can be absurd to pretend the anymosities will automatically vanish, evaporate, but I know how the majority will move things the right direction.

Refugees was the subject of resolution 194, and I am very sure it will be a subject of peace negotiations. My fear is that the settlements issue will be far more difficult to resolve.

@F1jocker12 As far as I'm aware, no amount of criticism of Islam (or any religion, or even any idea/opinion) can be considered abusive and against the AUP, if you find it offensive for someone to compare Islam to Judaism, that is your problem, as it's not remotely abusive.

The commentator is not criticizing anything, He is comparing two concepts with the conclusion of them supporting the same values. I never heard about Qu'ran (thanks @TenEightyOne) supporting the idea of

“A Gentile girl who is three years old can be violated.” Aboda Shara 37a

like the Talmud does. And scary enough, on topic, the Talmud is the basis for all Jewish Law!!!!!

The Testaments, The Talmud (and Torah) and the Qu'uran are considered by different religions to be holy books, sacred texts and rules by which to worship. To my mind each of them contains enough prescriptions of violence, hatred and bigotry to violate GTP's AUP many times over. That doesn't mean that discussion or comparison of them is not allowed.

I am not saying they are not. What I am saying is that, any muslim can feel harshly offended by a person who says the Qu'ran, his or her values are encouraging Genocide

If non-Jews are not able to serve Jews, then, under Talmudic law, they should be exterminated.

like the Talmud does, unless the commentator can show evidence for that.
It's like accusing any single muslim how all of them want Genocide. Islam, as I know, is not about that.

 

[Carbonox]

The commentator is not criticizing anything, He is comparing two concepts with the conclusion of them supporting the same values. I never heard about Qu'ran (thanks @TenEightyOne) supporting the idea of like the Talmud does.

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...

but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"

 

[squadops]

Don't forget the tax or fight part.

It really doesn't mater much though, if you think the aup has been violated, there is a report button everyone is free to use.

 

[F1jocker12]

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...

but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"

You will need more of the context on that... Can you also find something that says is ok to rape a three years old girl if she is not of your religion? Thank you for your efforts!

I found the context and it's not even close to genocide

That is, "Fight with those people who hinder you from the way of Allah; who have become your enemies because you are trying to reform the way of life in accordance with the Guidance of Allah; who are preventing you from the work of reform by force and persecution." Before this, when the Muslims were yet weak and scattered, they were commanded to propagate Islam and bear all tyrannies with fortitude. But when they had established a tiny state at Madinah they were. far the tirst time, allowed to go to war against those who were opposing this reformative movement with force. The battle of Badr took place after this and a series of battles started with it.

The Muslims were warned that the aim of their war should not be self-interest nor material gain nor retaliation. They should not, therefore, go to war against those who were neither opposing them nor hindering them from their work. Besides this, the Holy Prophet gave detailed instructions for keeping the war humane. He asked the Muslims to refrain from barbaric methods in warfare and from doing any kind of harm or injury to children, women, old people and the wounded. He also prohibited the dishonouring of the dead bodies of the slain, the wanton destruction of harvests, trees, animals, etc., and all other forms of cruelty, barbarism and vandalism. The Muslims were allowed to use farce only where it was absolutely indispensable and to the extent it was absolutely necessary.

"Persecution and suppression of opinion by violence, force or threat," is the exact translation of the Arabic word "fitnah," as used in this verse. The verse implies that it is a heinous offence to persecute a person or party by Harassing and oppressive treatment for holding ideas and theories opposed to those in vogue at the time, and it is abominable to intlict on people injury and punishment for adhering to and propagating those ideas and theories with a view to reforming the ways of society. Though bloodshed is an evil thing, to oppress and harass others for adhering to their own faith and principles and to force them to give these up and adopt those of the oppressors is tar worse. Therefore it is lawful and justifiable to use force against such people as a resort to brute force instead of argument.

Source. I almost wonder if GTP's AUP got inspired by those underlined directions... hmmmm

@squadops

if you think the aup has been violated, there is a report button everyone is free to use.

I am not here to convince or to report anybody. Initial advice for the commentator was to be carefull with that. After that, other members requested further explanation. Like I said before, it is hard to offend me, but any comment on the threads can be seen by anybody browsing on GTP, and any member can report it.
Currently I am asking other members (see above) if they can find more info (because I see how they want to help).

 

[KSaiyu]

Good luck finding Jews who take the Talmud literally, let alone that line. You're also neglecting the fact that Muslims believe their book is the direct word of God, with no alteration. This is quite different from the other religions, including Judaism.