Israel - Palestine discussion thread

[Eunos_Cosmo]

It shouldn't stop everything, it counter only missiles that could hit something viable. So far, it working pretty well - there is only one report of one dead in Jericho, Palestine Autonomy. Few Israeli were injured while heading to vaults, more dead after shooting in Jaffa.

Iron Dome does that - does Arrow?

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Reports that some Israeli airbases were hit.

Yeah, Netanyahu is going to be seeing blood if legitimate targets were hit by Iran. It will also kind of break the spell of Israeli invincibility.

No idea the provenance of this, but if this is an Israeli airbase, it's getting hammered

 

[Joey D]

I really hope Americans don't have to go die for this.

 

[inCloud]

Iron Dome does that - does Arrow?

Whole Israeli AA system works like that - predicting tragetory of missiles and destroying dangerous targets.

 

[Danoff]

Whole Israeli AA system works like that - predicting tragetory of missiles and destroying dangerous targets.

My understanding is that a lot of this technology comes from the US.

 

[HenrySwanson]

UK forces ‘played their part’ in response to Iran missile attack

Sir Keir Starmer was speaking to Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu when Iran launched its missile attack on Tuesday night

www.independent.co.uk

Why are we in thrall to these religious idiots.

 

[Liquid]

UK forces ‘played their part’ in response to Iran missile attack

Sir Keir Starmer was speaking to Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu when Iran launched its missile attack on Tuesday night

www.independent.co.uk

Why are we in thrall to these religious idiots.

Because we don't like the other religious idiots.

 

[HenrySwanson]

Because we don't like the other religious idiots.

That's not a good enough reason to intervene. It's like the West is under some spell.

------------

Iran had a rich and ancient history long before the adoption of Islam after the Arabs defeated their Zoroastrian rulers 1,350 years ago. There were positive links between the ancient Hebrews and the first Persian emperor, Cyrus, who liberated them from their captivity in Babylon. Israel hopes to weaponise Iranians’ non-Arabic identity as a way of emphasising the Ayatollahs’ putting Arab issues like Palestine ahead of Iranians’ national interest since the fall of the Shah in 1979.
A potent mix of foreign setbacks and economic hardships could produce a variant of the Arab Spring popular uprisings in Iran – a Persian Autumn, if you will.
But we should remember the souring of the Arab Spring following the early optimism in 2011. Political infighting and sectarian splits emerged producing new authoritarian regimes in Tunisia and Egypt and civil war in Libya, Syria and Yemen. It would be naive to presume that regime change from below in Iran would necessarily produce harmony, democracy and prosperity there.
Understandably, people will hope anything must be better than the regime which produced such a dystopian mix of fundamentalism and cynicism.
Regime change would end sanctions and give a new government access to oil and gas revenues plus foreign investment which could revive the Iranian economy. But the Iranian state could face disintegration if its ethnic minorities – Kurds and Arabs in the west, and Baluchis in the southeast – see a collapse of the Ayatollahs’ regime as the moment to break away from the country. That could destabilise neighbouring states.
Iran’s biggest minority, Azeris, a third of the population, straddle the border with ex-Soviet Azerbaijan. They have so far aligned with Iran, and the Islamic Republic’s leaders, including Khamenei, have Azeri family links. But if Shiism ceases to be an integrating factor and family ties to a fallen regime no longer pull strings in Tehran, then Azeris might seek separation.
An independent, ex-Iranian Azerbaijan would be dangerous for Israel’s regional ally, ex-Soviet Azerbaijan, since its population would be five times greater and its capital, Tabriz, a more ancient centre of Azeri culture than Baku.
The danger that militant Iranian nationalism itself would rise out of the ruins of the Islamic Republic shouldn’t be ruled out.
What made the Ayatollahs’ regime formidable was its ability to synthesise Shiite fundamentalism with Iranian imperial patriotism. If the Islamic pillar collapses out of popular disillusion with the mullahs’ incompetence, corruption and external failure, Iranians might turn to nationalism, even if consecrated at the ballot box. They wouldn’t be the first nation to liberate themselves from one oppressive ideology only to fall for another.

But at least it is high time for Iranians to make their own mistakes freely. This autumn could be their chance.

Will the Iranian people finally rise up in a ‘Persian autumn’?

With Israel’s ground invasion of southern Lebanon, the Islamic regime’s invincibility has been shattered – but Benjamin Netanyahu’s video appeal encouraging ordinary Iranians to liberate themselves may fall on deaf ears, says Mark Almond

www.independent.co.uk

 

[Liquid]

That's not a good enough reason to intervene.

I didn't say that it was.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

That's not a good enough reason to intervene. It's like the West is under some spell.

------------

Will the Iranian people finally rise up in a ‘Persian autumn’?

With Israel’s ground invasion of southern Lebanon, the Islamic regime’s invincibility has been shattered – but Benjamin Netanyahu’s video appeal encouraging ordinary Iranians to liberate themselves may fall on deaf ears, says Mark Almond

www.independent.co.uk

Israel is one of Britain's longest running pet projects - they can't give it up.

 

[dylansan]

While Israel claims "this isn't normal" in reference to images of missiles falling on Tel Aviv, it's important to recognize that yesterday and today, Israel has conducted air strikes and artillery shelling on residential homes and tents in Khan Yunis, killing civilians including children, as well as air strikes on Beirut, forcing people to evacuate and set up encampments on the beach as temporary shelter.

I know many people here are generally aware of Israel's actions, but I think it's important to keep track of some of the things happening on a day to day basis, especially when world leaders and news media talk about Iran's attack as if it's unlike anything that's happened so far.

 

[Liquid]

There are also reports of an Israeli attack on Damascus with civilian casualties.

 

[HenrySwanson]

While Israel claims "this isn't normal" in reference to images of missiles falling on Tel Aviv, it's important to recognize that yesterday and today, Israel has conducted air strikes and artillery shelling on residential homes and tents in Khan Yunis, killing civilians including children, as well as air strikes on Beirut, forcing people to evacuate and set up encampments on the beach as temporary shelter.

I know many people here are generally aware of Israel's actions, but I think it's important to keep track of some of the things happening on a day to day basis, especially when world leaders and news media talk about Iran's attack as if it's unlike anything that's happened so far.

There was a segment on LBC radio where they had a very knowledgeable speaker on and the host's final point was sobering. They had spent all that time speaking and there was all this coverage about Iran launching rockets that had 1(?) fatality but overnight there had been over 20 (iirc) deaths in Gaza

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

There is something deeply troubling about how Iran can launch 180 ballistic missiles at Israel, kill one person (by accident) and get condemned by the entire west, while Israel is killing hundreds of people a week with just token calls for restraint. I suspect that those missiles were rather precisely aimed not to kill anyone (how else would they not with multiple striking all around Tel Aviv) as a show of force - yes, we really can hit you which Israel is yet again writing off as Iran's attack was ineffective! Whether or not the military / political leadership in Israel (and the US) holds the same position in private is another story.

Anyways, it seems that Iranian leadership is currently terrified of the current mole situation (Khamenei has been deep in some bunker for days now) and I think this is probably the most asymmetrical part of this whole conflict. Whatever you say about the leadership of Israel, the people of Israel are still firmly committed to that government, even if there are reservations or protest against Netanyahu's administration specifically. This is wholly not true in Iran - huge portions of Iranian society hate the form of their government and want it removed. What this means in practice is that Iran is far, far more vulnerable to leaks, infilitration and espionage across all aspects of Iranian society whether that's regular military, IRGC or civilian contractors in a way that Israel's just isn't. In this conflict, I think this is Israel's decisive advantage even if you ignore their superior technology. I'm fairly confident that Netanyahu could take out the Ayatollah if he wished, but that could deprive him of the ongoing conflict that he needs to remain in power - he needs a perpetual boogy man. This is also true of Khamenei and his antagonism of Israel and the West.

So at the end of the day, they're all assholes and I 100% promise you they would figure out reasons to kill each other even if you removed religion from the picture. You can't tell me that Netanyahu or Khamenei are acting on religious principals - they want power, full stop. The middle east right now is like 1910s Europe.

 

[inCloud]

There is something deeply troubling about how Iran can launch 180 ballistic missiles at Israel, kill one person (by accident) and get condemned by the entire west, while Israel is killing hundreds of people a week with just token calls for restraint

On global scale, no one cares about Israeli or Gazans or Lebanes. Everyone care about Israel nukes Iran or visa versa. Because refugees and economics.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

On global scale, no one cares about Israeli or Gazans or Lebanes. Everyone care about Israel nukes Iran or visa versa. Because refugees and economics.

No. The west cares about Israel because it has a vested interest in that project not failing, regardless of refugees and/or economics and so they will give a long, long leash to Israel but fail to see the perspective of anyone else.

edit: Man with the twin conflicts over there, I bet Egypt really really wishes it could charge a toll for civilian aircraft using their airspace.

 

[Joey D]

I bet Egypt really really wishes it could charge a toll for civilian aircraft using their airspace.

They do. It's called an overflight fee. It's some complicated formula that includes like a base rate, a navigation fee, distance travelled, and takeoff weight of the aircraft.

In the US, we charge $61.75 per 100nm over land or $26.51 per 100nm over the ocean.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

They do. It's called an overflight fee. It's some complicated formula that includes like a base rate, a navigation fee, distance travelled, and takeoff weight of the aircraft.

In the US, we charge $61.75 per 100nm over land or $26.51 per 100nm over the ocean.

Conspiracy confirmed. Both conflicts are now Egypt's fault.

 

[Famine]

$61.75 per 100nm over land

Holy monkeynipples, that's expensive. No wonder they try to land early and take off late: every nanometre counts.