Israel - Palestine discussion thread

[Scaff]

But the country also elected down the line:

And then he was assassinated, by an Israeli; and progressive by Israeli standards doesn't mean equity for Palestinians.

So doesn't that prove that Israel isn't stuck in 1948 in perpetuity?

Walk like a duck, quacks like a duck. Israel has never been serious about a two-state solution, Rabin was the closest and that was still a long way from it.

Was Israel's response to that inadequate?

Failure to do anything about settler incursions and violence in Hebron
A commission to investigate it was pretty much a white-wash and ignored much of the evidence Palestinians presented
Banning Palestinians from numerous streets in Hebron (including areas where they lived and operated business' in, and then turning them over to Jewish businesses
Did nothing for near a decade to stop the attackers grave being used as a shrine and rallying point for fundeamentalists

Just about the only positive action, that benefited the Israeli government more than it did Palestinians, which was outlawing the Kach movement. That, in reality, did little actual damage to them, as the leadership simply set-up new groups with the same aims.

 

[Imari]

I'd take living under a Jewish state over an Islamic one 7 days out of 7, no guessing needed.

In which country would I be more at risk when displaying this:

View attachment 1393350

Are you aware that Judaism is not Christianity? The correct comparison would be Muhammad and Abraham. Jews pretty famously don't believe Jesus was the Messiah or divine at all. He was just a dude.

That you're so broadly conflating Judaism with Christianity speaks to your lack of understanding of either.

 

[HenrySwanson]

And then he was assassinated, by an Israeli; and progressive by Israeli standards doesn't mean equity for Palestinians.

Yes. By an Israeli. But he was voted in by hundreds of thousands more.

What would equity for Palestinians look like?

Walk like a duck, quacks like a duck. Israel has never been serious about a two-state solution, Rabin was the closest and that was still a long way from it.

It seems it was the Arabs who rejected the Peel Commission and the 1947 Partition Plan. Israel then comes into being and they've never been serious since??

Failure to do anything about settler incursions and violence in Hebron
A commission to investigate it was pretty much a white-wash and ignored much of the evidence Palestinians presented
Banning Palestinians from numerous streets in Hebron (including areas where they lived and operated business' in, and then turning them over to Jewish businesses
Did nothing for near a decade to stop the attackers grave being used as a shrine and rallying point for fundeamentalists

Just about the only positive action, that benefited the Israeli government more than it did Palestinians, which was outlawing the Kach movement. That, in reality, did little actual damage to them, as the leadership simply set-up new groups with the same aims.

How do you stop retaliatory violence? This has been a thing since Muhammad, and before that Jews vs other tribal groups.

Are you aware that Judaism is not Christianity? The correct comparison would be Muhammad and Abraham. Jews pretty famously don't believe Jesus was the Messiah or divine at all. He was just a dude.

That you're so broadly conflating Judaism with Christianity speaks to your lack of understanding of either.

The picture is critical of Islam and shows a depiction Muhammad. That, as well as the follow-up post, shows where the threat of violence originates. And since it is a danger even in West London (not in an Islamic country) it's more than likely the religion. I'm not sure of the threat I would face displaying a similarly blasphemous picture of Abraham in Israel, but doing it here would likely result in the same level of danger as the blasphemous Christian picture I also posted.

EDIT: Speaking of....what about the non-Muslim Palestinians? Palestinians can't be one homogenous group.

 

[Scaff]

Yes. By an Israeli. But he was voted in by hundreds of thousands more.

And? You seem to be trying to infer something here, what exactly is it.

What would equity for Palestinians look like?

A two-state solution as a start.

It seems it was the Arabs who rejected the Peel Commission and the 1947 Partition Plan. Israel then comes into being and they've never been serious since??

Once again a simplistic view, Israel accepted both under the understanding that they would then expand the borders further (in other words they fully intended to break any agreement over land distribution), Palestinians and Arabs rejected it because it was massively favorable to the new Israeli state (and that is still a very abridged summary) giving it the majority of the land, much of which was already in use, despite the lower population.

If today the UN and outside countries partitioned the UK into two, giving the majority of the land to those of Celtic ancestry (so a percentage of those in Scotland, Wales and Cornwall) and forcing those outside that group into a small area of land what do you think would happen? would the non-Celts accept it? would they leave their homes and businesses without question?

 

[Danoff]

Ben Gurion also warned in 1948: Assuring his fellow Zionists that Palestinians will never come back to their homes: “The old will die and the young will forget.”

“We should prepare to go over to the offensive. Our aim is to smash Lebanon, Trans-Jordan, and Syria. The weak point is Lebanon, for the Moslem regime is artificial and easy for us to undermine. We shall establish a Christian state there, and then we will smash the Arab Legion, eliminate Trans-Jordan; Syria will fall to us. We then bomb and move on and take Port Said, Alexandria and Sinai.”
David Ben-Gurion May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, a Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978."
Source: https://www.progressiveisrael.org/ben-gurions-notorious-quotes-their-polemical-uses-abuses/

Something about these two quotes back-to-back made me realize that someone might perpetuate a holy war just for the purpose of making sure that their kids are saddled with it. If the concern is that the young might forget the axe that the old people are grinding, then what better way to make sure they too have an axe to grind than to start up trouble and let them see the horror that results?

I'm not sure it would have ever occurred to me that people would care more about their religious grievance than about the lives of their children, or think that their children's lives would be enriched by having such a grievance themselves, but I'm starting to realize that something like that must indeed be happening.

 

[Liquid]

I'm not sure it would have ever occurred to me that people would care more about their religious grievance than about the lives of their children, or think that their children's lives would be enriched by having such a grievance themselves

A society grows great when old men plant trees under whose shade they shall never sit.

A Greek proverb. Wonder if there is a Hebrew translation.

Edit: And an Arabic translation. And a Farsi translation.

 

[Touring Mars]

Iran are expected to launch 'a ballistic missile attack' into Israel imminently.

 

[HenrySwanson]

And? You seem to be trying to infer something here, what exactly is it.

That we judge a nation by many factors. A single person killed him, but so many more bought into the alternate vision that was being offered.

A two-state solution as a start.

And you think the violence would end??

Once again a simplistic view, Israel accepted both under the understanding that they would then expand the borders further (in other words they fully intended to break any agreement over land distribution),

Was that a concrete strategy by Israel or the wishes of certain Zionists?

Palestinians and Arabs rejected it because it was massively favorable to the new Israeli state (and that is still a very abridged summary) giving it the majority of the land, much of which was already in use, despite the lower population.

What was wrong with the Peel Commission exactly?

If today the UN and outside countries partitioned the UK into two, giving the majority of the land to those of Celtic ancestry (so a percentage of those in Scotland, Wales and Cornwall) and forcing those outside that group into a small area of land what do you think would happen? would the non-Celts accept it? would they leave their homes and businesses without question?

Are Celts needing a safe haven? What would you have proposed happen to the Jews in the 1930s/1940s?

EDIT: I'm afraid you will never get these groups to be happy in the presence of each other:

Israeli press review: 'We don't want Arabs in school'

Meanwhile, Israeli commanders say they have an opportunity to shape history in southern Lebanon

www.middleeasteye.net

Does anyone know of any Jewish-Muslim marriages??

 

[ImmalovemaGTR]

Does anyone know of any Jewish-Muslim marriages??

Yes, a 2nd grade uncle of mine is married to a jew. They live in Iraq.

 

[Scaff]

That we judge a nation by many factors. A single person killed him, but so many more bought into the alternate vision that was being offered.

A vision that still was massively biased towards the Israeli state, and if you think it was a single person without any outside influence, then you know bugger all about the events.

Oh and I am basing my view on the totality of events since the foundation of the state, it's you that is attempting to link it to one person and a policy that wasn't wholly accepted within Israel.

And you think the violence would end??

Based on a single event, no, but I didn't make that claim did I.

Was that a concrete strategy by Israel or the wishes of certain Zionists?

A concrete strategy, it was how it was sold to the Jewish delegation internally (as they didn't think the Peel commision or the Partition plan went far enough).

What was wrong with the Peel Commission exactly?

Was the bit you just quoted from me not an indication?

Are Celts needing a safe haven? What would you have proposed happen to the Jews in the 1930s/1940s?

It's an analogy

EDIT: I'm afraid you will never get these groups to be happy in the presence of each other:

I'm old enough to remember the same thing being said about Ireland and the Troubles.

Does anyone know of any Jewish-Muslim marriages??

You seem to be conflating Arab and Muslim, but yes they do occur, however, they have to be secular as it's not permitted in Israel for a Jew to marry a non-Jew religiously.

Here's one example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucy_Aharish

 

[HenrySwanson]

A vision that still was massively biased towards the Israeli state, and if you think it was a single person without any outside influence, then you know bugger all about the events.

Oh and I am basing my view on the totality of events since the foundation of the state, it's you that is attempting to link it to one person and a policy that wasn't wholly accepted within Israel.

Link what to one person? Sorry, I got lost following this.

Based on a single event, no, but I didn't make that claim did I.

So a two-state solution where both sides agree to the terms? What will that look like?

A concrete strategy, it was how it was sold to the Jewish delegation internally (as they didn't think the Peel commision or the Partition plan went far enough).

Is there proof that it was the official position of the state?

Was the bit you just quoted from me not an indication?

I'm confused. You said majority of land but Peel Commission was giving 20%

It's an analogy

That needs better context. A big part of Jews having a homeland is because of the persecution they've faced.

You seem to be conflating Arab and Muslim, but yes they do occur, however, they have to be secular as it would be illegal in Israel for a Jew to marry a non-Jew.

Here's one example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucy_Aharish

Not conflating. I'd imagine there's less of an obstacle with non-Muslim Arabs marrying Jews. I wonder what the reactions of the respective communities are like.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Muslims and Jews can and do get along fine pretty much everywhere except Israel...and it's because Israel is occupying land that used to belong to Palestinians. It's convenient to conflate geopolitics with religion, but I don't think it's correct.

 

[Danoff]

Muslims and Jews can and do get along fine pretty much everywhere except Israel...and it's because Israel is occupying land that used to belong to Palestinians. It's convenient to conflate geopolitics with religion, but I don't think it's correct.

But it's not just ANY land. It's special land.

 

[Scaff]

Link what to one person? Sorry, I got lost following this.

Rabin.

So a two-state solution where both sides agree to the terms? What will that look like?

Ideally, but Israel as a state has never accepted it in any form.

Is there proof that it was the official position of the state?

Yes, plenty of research shows exactly that, and it's no coincidence that the Zionist side had initially rejected the Peel commission.

I'm confused. You said majority of land but Peel Commission was giving 20%

Apologies, that was the later Partition plan, the Peel plan gave 20% to the Jewish state, the issue being it was the most fertile and developed areas of the area.

That needs better context. A big part of Jews having a homeland is because of the persecution they've faced.

So forcibly removing a population that has been in a country for thousands of years is the best solution?

The analogy is fine, but if you want a persecuted minority to be included swap it to any country in the Americas and the indigenous population.

Not conflating. I'd imagine there's less of an obstacle with non-Muslim Arabs marrying Jews. I wonder what the reactions of the respective communities are like.

To the religious and/or right in Israel? Nope, no difference at all, the Talmud is quite clear on that (as most Abrahamic texts are).

 

[HenrySwanson]

Missiles fired into Israel.

 

[Danoff]

Anyone thinking that it's pure coincidence Israel and Iran are choosing to misbehave right during an election when US politicians don't feel free to call out bad behavior because of concerns about alienating voters?

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Missiles fired into Israel.

This looks to more of an effort to actually strike Israel this time...not slow moving drones with advance notice.

Anyone thinking that it's pure coincidence Israel and Iran are choosing to misbehave right during an election when US politicians don't feel free to call out bad behavior because of concerns about alienating voters?

It's a bizarre situation. Iran definitely wants Harris to win and Israel definitely wants Trump to win. Russia is on Iran's side, mostly, but they want the candidate that Israel wants to win to win.

 

[HenrySwanson]

Rabin.

I was linking it to how Israel voted.

Ideally, but Israel as a state has never accepted it in any form.

Yes, plenty of research shows exactly that, and it's no coincidence that the Zionist side had initially rejected the Peel commission.

Apologies, that was the later Partition plan, the Peel plan gave 20% to the Jewish state, the issue being it was the most fertile and developed areas of the area.

Will there ever be a deal where both sides are happy?

So forcibly removing a population that has been in a country for thousands of years is the best solution?

The analogy is fine, but if you want a persecuted minority to be included swap it to any country in the Americas and the indigenous population.

Were they persecuted in the same way as Jews in the 1930s/40s?

To the religious and/or right in Israel? Nope, no difference at all, the Talmud is quite clear on that (as most Abrahamic texts are).

I meant culturally. I know of Jews marrying non-Jews, Muslims marrying non-Muslims but the frequency of Jews marrying Muslims seems pretty rare.

It could be due to the raising of children and which religion "claims" them, or perhaps it's still that never-ending grudge.

Muslims and Jews can and do get along fine pretty much everywhere except Israel...and it's because Israel is occupying land that used to belong to Palestinians. It's convenient to conflate geopolitics with religion, but I don't think it's correct.

I see it as people getting along and tolerating each other, but I remember growing up post-9/11 and seeing everything devolve into a pack mentality. Same as it ever was.

==========

Some injuries it sounds like. They're not expecting further missiles. Israel likely to respond.

 

[Scaff]

I was linking it to how Israel voted.

Twice and by a narrow margin resulting in coalition governments on both occasions. They were the outliers, not the norm.

Will there ever be a deal where both sides are happy?

See my comment earlier regarding Ireland and the troubles.

Were they persecuted in the same way as Jews in the 1930s/40s?

Are you serious with that question?

I meant culturally. I know of Jews marrying non-Jews, Muslims marrying non-Muslims but the frequency of Jews marrying Muslims seems pretty rare.

It could be due to the raising of children and which religion "claims" them, or perhaps it's still that never-ending grudge.

I've no idea of the actual numbers, nor the rational, and without actual research, it's baseless speculation.

 

[HenrySwanson]

Twice and by a narrow margin resulting in coalition governments on both occasions. They were the outliers, not the norm.

This Labor party seems to have been more influential earlier on in Israel's history?

Are you serious with that question?

Yeah. I'm aware of terrible injustices in the past but were these communities under a similar threat specifically when the world became more....enlightened?....as in, the 20th Century? Did they have somewhere to go that was "theirs"?

I've no idea of the actual numbers, nor the rational, and without actual research, it's baseless speculation.

It's worth investigating.

We can pat ourselves on the back and say, sure we get along, but how deep is the connection? Is it just simply living alongside each other and nothing more meaningful than that....

 

[Scaff]

This Labor party seems to have been more influential earlier on in Israel's history?

They were still Zionist, no party in power in the countries history has been anything else.

Yeah. I'm aware of terrible injustices in the past but were these communities under a similar threat specifically when the world became more....enlightened?....as in, the 20th Century? Did they have somewhere to go that was "theirs"?

Injustices? Didn't continue into the 20th century? Don't still happen today? I'm going to excuse the utter tone-deaf nature of your comment on ignorance.

It's worth investigating.

We can pat ourselves on the back and say, sure we get along, but how deep is the connection? Is it just simply living alongside each other and nothing more meaningful than that....

Once again I refer you to Ireland and the Troubles, however nice way to crap all over communities around the globe that do connect in a meaningful way. I've come across plenty of examples that demonstrate this, the book Jerusalem by Sami Tamimi and Yotam Ottolenghi is one I would recommend in that regard (as well as illustrating the point it's also a fantastic cookbook - one I've had and used for many years).

 

[HenrySwanson]

They were still Zionist, no party in power in the countries history has been anything else.

Is Zionism always bad?

Injustices? Didn't continue into the 20th century? Don't still happen today? I'm going to excuse the utter tone-deaf nature of your comment on ignorance.

Because of colonialism, which they resisted in their homelands.

Were Jews meant to resist and not have a homeland?

Once again I refer you to Ireland and the Troubles, however nice way to crap all over communities around the globe that do connect in a meaningful way. I've come across plenty of examples that demonstrate this, the book Jerusalem by Sami Tamimi and Yotam Ottolenghi is one I would recommend in that regard (as well as illustrating the point it's also a fantastic cookbook - one I've had and used for many years).

OK.

I would have thought the riots and what's happening with Trump/white nationalism would have woken people up to the perilous state we are currently in but....

This is from Reddit:

What do people here think of a muslim woman marrying a jewish man?​

It's not allowed, this is not just what people here think, it's the law of Islam. A Muslim woman cannot marry a Non-Muslim at any circumstance, let him be a Jew or Christian. It would be a major sin. The punishment is the punishment of adultery. If she was ignorant of the ruling, she is excused but must be separated immediately, (divorce Islamically isn't needed, because the marriage is null.)
Read:

• https://islamqa.info/en/8396

https://islamqa.info/en/21380/
https://islamqa.info/en/21380/
And:

Jews, how would you feel about dating or marrying a Muslim?​

This is if there was no conversion.

Plus:
In Jewish law the mother determines religion of a child while in Islamic law the father determines the religion. This causes large issues for couples that want to have children.

Historically there has been a lot of marriage between Jewish women and Muslim men but that was due to forced marriage, and because most Jews don’t live as Dhimmi anymore this is becoming less and less common.

All I see with religion is control. Depressing.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

This is getting far too in the weeds of religion for what is a geopolitical discussion.

 

[Touring Mars]

This is getting far too in the weeds of religion for what is a geopolitical discussion.

This is indeed a dangerous moment involving two implacably opposed foes - and the Israel v Iran situation is pretty bad too.

 

[HenrySwanson]

This is getting far too in the weeds of religion for what is a geopolitical discussion.

More often than not, it's good to explore the aetiology of the ailment.

We can't pretend that the geopolitics started in 1948. To do so risks going round, and around, and around....

The US shouldn't have shot down any missiles. It's enabling terrorism.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Seeing clips of missiles hitting Tel-Aviv pretty hard. Iron Dome is definitely not going to stop a full on ballistic missile attack, especially if there is as little warning as there was today. This one looks faster than a conventional missile:

US defence secretary tells Israeli counterpart Iran attack an ‘outrageous act of aggression’ – as it happened

Israeli prime minister says Iran ‘will pay’ for strikes; Israeli military issues new warning to residents in the southern suburbs of Beirut

www.theguardian.com

I'm curious if Iran was aiming at....anything....in particular or just letting them fly. A number of missiles seem to hit just off the coast of Tel-Aviv which makes me wonder if Iran is trying to make a show of nearly hitting the city but not doing any damage.

 

[Liquid]

Iron Dome is definitely not going to stop a full on ballistic missile attack

I, like many others in the past few hours, have recently learnt that the Iron Dome isn't Israel's anti-ballistic missile system - it has a different system of SAMs called Arrow to combat ballistic missiles.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I, like many others in the past few hours, have recently learnt that the Iron Dome isn't Israel's anti-ballistic missile system - it has a different system of SAMs called Arrow to combat ballistic missiles.

Yeah, I was more using Iron Dome as a catch-all...but to be clear, Arrow did not succeed in taking them all down either.

 

[HenrySwanson]

Saw this picture a while ago, not sure of the provenance:

I'm curious if Iran was aiming at....anything....in particular or just letting them fly. A number of missiles seem to hit just off the coast of Tel-Aviv which makes me wonder if Iran is trying to make a show of nearly hitting the city but not doing any damage.

It's the next one (if it comes) that will reveal more of the intent.

 

[inCloud]

Seeing clips of missiles hitting Tel-Aviv pretty hard. Iron Dome is definitely not going to stop a full on ballistic missile attack, especially if there is as little warning as there was today.

It shouldn't stop everything, it counter only missiles that could hit something viable. So far, it working pretty well - there is only one report of one dead in Jericho, Palestine Autonomy. Few Israeli were injured while heading to vaults, more dead after shooting in Jaffa.