Israel - Palestine discussion thread

[Scaff]

But the country also elected down the line:

And then he was assassinated, by an Israeli; and progressive by Israeli standards doesn't mean equity for Palestinians.

So doesn't that prove that Israel isn't stuck in 1948 in perpetuity?

Walk like a duck, quacks like a duck. Israel has never been serious about a two-state solution, Rabin was the closest and that was still a long way from it.

Was Israel's response to that inadequate?

Failure to do anything about settler incursions and violence in Hebron
A commission to investigate it was pretty much a white-wash and ignored much of the evidence Palestinians presented
Banning Palestinians from numerous streets in Hebron (including areas where they lived and operated business' in, and then turning them over to Jewish businesses
Did nothing for near a decade to stop the attackers grave being used as a shrine and rallying point for fundeamentalists

Just about the only positive action, that benefited the Israeli government more than it did Palestinians, which was outlawing the Kach movement. That, in reality, did little actual damage to them, as the leadership simply set-up new groups with the same aims.

 

[Imari]

I'd take living under a Jewish state over an Islamic one 7 days out of 7, no guessing needed.

In which country would I be more at risk when displaying this:

View attachment 1393350

Are you aware that Judaism is not Christianity? The correct comparison would be Muhammad and Abraham. Jews pretty famously don't believe Jesus was the Messiah or divine at all. He was just a dude.

That you're so broadly conflating Judaism with Christianity speaks to your lack of understanding of either.

 

[HenrySwanson]

And then he was assassinated, by an Israeli; and progressive by Israeli standards doesn't mean equity for Palestinians.

Yes. By an Israeli. But he was voted in by hundreds of thousands more.

What would equity for Palestinians look like?

Walk like a duck, quacks like a duck. Israel has never been serious about a two-state solution, Rabin was the closest and that was still a long way from it.

It seems it was the Arabs who rejected the Peel Commission and the 1947 Partition Plan. Israel then comes into being and they've never been serious since??

Failure to do anything about settler incursions and violence in Hebron
A commission to investigate it was pretty much a white-wash and ignored much of the evidence Palestinians presented
Banning Palestinians from numerous streets in Hebron (including areas where they lived and operated business' in, and then turning them over to Jewish businesses
Did nothing for near a decade to stop the attackers grave being used as a shrine and rallying point for fundeamentalists

Just about the only positive action, that benefited the Israeli government more than it did Palestinians, which was outlawing the Kach movement. That, in reality, did little actual damage to them, as the leadership simply set-up new groups with the same aims.

How do you stop retaliatory violence? This has been a thing since Muhammad, and before that Jews vs other tribal groups.

Are you aware that Judaism is not Christianity? The correct comparison would be Muhammad and Abraham. Jews pretty famously don't believe Jesus was the Messiah or divine at all. He was just a dude.

That you're so broadly conflating Judaism with Christianity speaks to your lack of understanding of either.

The picture is critical of Islam and shows a depiction Muhammad. That, as well as the follow-up post, shows where the threat of violence originates. And since it is a danger even in West London (not in an Islamic country) it's more than likely the religion. I'm not sure of the threat I would face displaying a similarly blasphemous picture of Abraham in Israel, but doing it here would likely result in the same level of danger as the blasphemous Christian picture I also posted.

EDIT: Speaking of....what about the non-Muslim Palestinians? Palestinians can't be one homogenous group.

 

[Scaff]

Yes. By an Israeli. But he was voted in by hundreds of thousands more.

And? You seem to be trying to infer something here, what exactly is it.

What would equity for Palestinians look like?

A two-state solution as a start.

It seems it was the Arabs who rejected the Peel Commission and the 1947 Partition Plan. Israel then comes into being and they've never been serious since??

Once again a simplistic view, Israel accepted both under the understanding that they would then expand the borders further (in other words they fully intended to break any agreement over land distribution), Palestinians and Arabs rejected it because it was massively favorable to the new Israeli state (and that is still a very abridged summary) giving it the majority of the land, much of which was already in use, despite the lower population.

If today the UN and outside countries partitioned the UK into two, giving the majority of the land to those of Celtic ancestry (so a percentage of those in Scotland, Wales and Cornwall) and forcing those outside that group into a small area of land what do you think would happen? would the non-Celts accept it? would they leave their homes and businesses without question?

 

[Danoff]

Ben Gurion also warned in 1948: Assuring his fellow Zionists that Palestinians will never come back to their homes: “The old will die and the young will forget.”

“We should prepare to go over to the offensive. Our aim is to smash Lebanon, Trans-Jordan, and Syria. The weak point is Lebanon, for the Moslem regime is artificial and easy for us to undermine. We shall establish a Christian state there, and then we will smash the Arab Legion, eliminate Trans-Jordan; Syria will fall to us. We then bomb and move on and take Port Said, Alexandria and Sinai.”
David Ben-Gurion May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, a Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978."
Source: https://www.progressiveisrael.org/ben-gurions-notorious-quotes-their-polemical-uses-abuses/

Something about these two quotes back-to-back made me realize that someone might perpetuate a holy war just for the purpose of making sure that their kids are saddled with it. If the concern is that the young might forget the axe that the old people are grinding, then what better way to make sure they too have an axe to grind than to start up trouble and let them see the horror that results?

I'm not sure it would have ever occurred to me that people would care more about their religious grievance than about the lives of their children, or think that their children's lives would be enriched by having such a grievance themselves, but I'm starting to realize that something like that must indeed be happening.

 

[Liquid]

I'm not sure it would have ever occurred to me that people would care more about their religious grievance than about the lives of their children, or think that their children's lives would be enriched by having such a grievance themselves

A society grows great when old men plant trees under whose shade they shall never sit.

A Greek proverb. Wonder if there is a Hebrew translation.

Edit: And an Arabic translation. And a Farsi translation.

 

[Touring Mars]

Iran are expected to launch 'a ballistic missile attack' into Israel imminently.

 

[HenrySwanson]

And? You seem to be trying to infer something here, what exactly is it.

That we judge a nation by many factors. A single person killed him, but so many more bought into the alternate vision that was being offered.

A two-state solution as a start.

And you think the violence would end??

Once again a simplistic view, Israel accepted both under the understanding that they would then expand the borders further (in other words they fully intended to break any agreement over land distribution),

Was that a concrete strategy by Israel or the wishes of certain Zionists?

Palestinians and Arabs rejected it because it was massively favorable to the new Israeli state (and that is still a very abridged summary) giving it the majority of the land, much of which was already in use, despite the lower population.

What was wrong with the Peel Commission exactly?

If today the UN and outside countries partitioned the UK into two, giving the majority of the land to those of Celtic ancestry (so a percentage of those in Scotland, Wales and Cornwall) and forcing those outside that group into a small area of land what do you think would happen? would the non-Celts accept it? would they leave their homes and businesses without question?

Are Celts needing a safe haven? What would you have proposed happen to the Jews in the 1930s/1940s?

EDIT: I'm afraid you will never get these groups to be happy in the presence of each other:

Israeli press review: 'We don't want Arabs in school'

Meanwhile, Israeli commanders say they have an opportunity to shape history in southern Lebanon

www.middleeasteye.net

Does anyone know of any Jewish-Muslim marriages??