ITCC Season II-New Name, New Ideas, post here!
- Thread starter ITCC_Andrew
- 266 comments
- 9,656 views
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
Out of date how? Every major series on GTP uses them. Elaborate please.
Having Team Managers is fine, but it won't solve the problem of specs not being equal, nor guys quitting over them. Having different rules or format in place will not change the fact that if someone ends up in an uncompetitive car, they are more likely to quit. Having people complain to Team Managers if they feel they were "wronged" will only download the volume of BS emails to someone else. The system that works best, and forces drivers to get along with each other and be reasonable, is to have them deal with on track issues among themselves first, and only if it can't be resolved, then it goes to stewards. When it goes to the stewards it's fully documented as in,
"Driver A, Race 1, Lap 4, Turn 5, did not have enough overlap to complete a legal pass, but got inside of me anyway and forced me into the guardrail. Did not make a contact concession later in the race."
Emails that say, "Driver A was dirty in that race you should watch the replay" get ignored. You elminate 90% of issues going to the stewards that way. It's much too easy to complain to a third party and results in many more complaints.
And whether drivers complain or not, as in last season, will come from strong leadership, not from making up a rule about Team Managers. You got way too many useless PM's because you didn't nip the problems in the bud early on and didn't clearly explain or enforce the GTP rules. Everyone gets along now because you only have 5 guys showing up to a race.
- 8,168
- Hindmarsh Island
- TDZ-4-12-14-88
- XBOX_is_GAY!!!!
^^ we resolved our issue at round 1 in a matter of minutes, all happened behind the scenes, we got over it and moved on, this should be step 1 in all issues, step 2 if it causes more problems then ask a 3rd party about the driving standards witnessed, then if it continues give them a warning then give them the boot, but like jp said, it shouldn't need to get that far if you clean out the trash lol, this is a racing simulator not 8 mile trailer park,
I don't think out dated was really what mel was looking for, I have read them multiple times and there is a lot of loop holes, I know this is GTP not the FIA but if you read between the lines this can cause as many issues as dirty driving, and believe me the whining one particular did and arguing with others over pointless scraps was really getting my goat, we don't need the negativity, its the best way to turn people away,
I will also back jp on the punctuality part, your in charge, sure most of us are not worried about waiting an extra 10 minutes or so if we know prior or someone is having connection issues, but the line needs to be drawn and your responsible for it, my suggestion is once 80% of the people are in the room, give a 5 minute warning via psn and on the tread, also an hour warning on the thread wouldn't hurt either, then once the 5 minute warning comes if someone pm's you about having connection issues, then give them the standard advice, make qually last for 30 minutes so if someone has connection issues then they still get 10 minutes to qualify, this also allows for cache clearing and router reset, (which should be done prior anyway) then give a 2 minute warning, this should be for to complete laps and change to their desired tires,
Jonny, a tight setup for a corvette RM would be cool, I got a good one for the wheel but I also find it easy to drive with the DS3, so I would be interested to see what people are describing as "tight" lol
Also mel, I'd like to see racing soft tires used less, like just in a trial race have them used once, say you can use them for qualifying, or once in race 1 or once in race 2, not for qualifying and both races,
I'd also like to see the use of madrid and DF and other tight or harder to tune tracks later in the series,
Start the series with a wide open tracks like nurburgring gpf, fuji and motegi, then throw in a tight track like DF or madrid, that way people will be a bit more delicate when it comes to the tighter tracks, remember round one season 1 madrid wasn't a mistake, it was misplaced lol, I enjoyed racing there with cnd and jp, until my unfortunate power shortage, lol
I don't think out dated was really what mel was looking for, I have read them multiple times and there is a lot of loop holes, I know this is GTP not the FIA but if you read between the lines this can cause as many issues as dirty driving, and believe me the whining one particular did and arguing with others over pointless scraps was really getting my goat, we don't need the negativity, its the best way to turn people away,
I will also back jp on the punctuality part, your in charge, sure most of us are not worried about waiting an extra 10 minutes or so if we know prior or someone is having connection issues, but the line needs to be drawn and your responsible for it, my suggestion is once 80% of the people are in the room, give a 5 minute warning via psn and on the tread, also an hour warning on the thread wouldn't hurt either, then once the 5 minute warning comes if someone pm's you about having connection issues, then give them the standard advice, make qually last for 30 minutes so if someone has connection issues then they still get 10 minutes to qualify, this also allows for cache clearing and router reset, (which should be done prior anyway) then give a 2 minute warning, this should be for to complete laps and change to their desired tires,
Jonny, a tight setup for a corvette RM would be cool, I got a good one for the wheel but I also find it easy to drive with the DS3, so I would be interested to see what people are describing as "tight" lol
Also mel, I'd like to see racing soft tires used less, like just in a trial race have them used once, say you can use them for qualifying, or once in race 1 or once in race 2, not for qualifying and both races,
I'd also like to see the use of madrid and DF and other tight or harder to tune tracks later in the series,
Start the series with a wide open tracks like nurburgring gpf, fuji and motegi, then throw in a tight track like DF or madrid, that way people will be a bit more delicate when it comes to the tighter tracks, remember round one season 1 madrid wasn't a mistake, it was misplaced lol, I enjoyed racing there with cnd and jp, until my unfortunate power shortage, lol
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
Maybe I'm missing something but I'm not aware of any "loopholes". Do you have an example to illustrate? I know the rules can't cover all specific instances or they'd be 100 pages long but what isn't covered specifically should be covered by general guidelines concerning sportsmanship and the like.
By tight do you mean tending towards understeery as the term is generally used in racing? I've never tuned that particular car but if you send me the full specs, the track/tire combination, length of race etc. I can give it a run. I don't get on much these days but I'll get to it eventually.
- 10,276
- Sacramento CA
- cnd01
We had 6
at the last race. When certain people challenge leadership, that makes it very hard to accomplish anything.I would stick to the schedule as much as possible. There is nothing more annoying than having to back out and restart races because someone showed up late or something else trivial. If someone misses qualy then tough luck. I ran the ITCC on schedule the very first time I was host. We even had some connection problems between the races. It can be done, but you have to be unforgiving on the schedule. If people don't like it then either they show up on time next round or leave the series.
Mel just wants to add more specifics in the OLR's to try to fix some of the specific instances. 1 question: Why are you so against taking away the specifics? You drive clean enough already not to ever have to worry about it
ITCC_Andrew
(Banned)
- 18,532
- Kitchener
Well, I much preferred the iRacing videos about passing etc. It tells you more than how to apologize for a crash; it tells you how not to get into one.
I like the "draw a line in the middle of the track." line, in the iRacing "driver videos." If someone's on your inside, and you know that they are there, you REALLY can't use that inside line. If you're on someone's inside, you can't use your outside line.
That's the sorta stuff that the GTPlanet OLRs don't cover (running in a large group, WITHOUT causing a crash.)
I want to add rules like the "+25 feet when following" rule. Back in my karting days, the guy in last had to brake before the guy in first, because the guy in last would carry much more speed into turns, because of the draft. Otherwise, you would cause a MASSIVE crash. Believe me, I know about bad race starts. Someone tried to spin me, and I was able to save it, but I was out of the "freight train." No one wanted to let me back in. Then, someone decided to turn in, on me, without even looking, and I was disqualified.
Yeah, there are some pretty obvious rules that can be established, that aren't in the "GTPlanet Online hotLapping Rules." We all know, that the OLRs are from GT5
, and don't actually go into enough detail to explain how not to cause a crash. 💡
💡 Because, no matter how awesome the contact concession is, not being in a crash is better. 💡
I like the "draw a line in the middle of the track." line, in the iRacing "driver videos." If someone's on your inside, and you know that they are there, you REALLY can't use that inside line. If you're on someone's inside, you can't use your outside line.
That's the sorta stuff that the GTPlanet OLRs don't cover (running in a large group, WITHOUT causing a crash.)
I want to add rules like the "+25 feet when following" rule. Back in my karting days, the guy in last had to brake before the guy in first, because the guy in last would carry much more speed into turns, because of the draft. Otherwise, you would cause a MASSIVE crash. Believe me, I know about bad race starts. Someone tried to spin me, and I was able to save it, but I was out of the "freight train." No one wanted to let me back in. Then, someone decided to turn in, on me, without even looking, and I was disqualified.
Yeah, there are some pretty obvious rules that can be established, that aren't in the "GTPlanet Online hotLapping Rules." We all know, that the OLRs are from GT5
, and don't actually go into enough detail to explain how not to cause a crash. 💡💡 Because, no matter how awesome the contact concession is, not being in a crash is better. 💡
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
Mel just wants to add more specifics in the OLR's to try to fix some of the specific instances. 1 question: Why are you so against taking away the specifics? You drive clean enough already not to ever have to worry about it
What specifics? All I see are generalities. I'm not against any rules that make for better racing. I'm against rules that are reduntant, duplicative, unecessary, poorly written and unenforcable. I'll give you an example.
Just off the top of my head, maybe 75% of series I've seen use the GTPlanet Rule Time Trial Rule that (paraphrasing), "two wheels on the track at all times and the curbs are track", and sometimes special rules are made for concrete runoff areas and sometimes they are not. The majority of the rest of the series use the "two wheels on the tarmac at all times, the curb is NOT track" version of the rule.
Either rule is easy to understand, easy to follow and easy to enforce. You're either on the track or not. What's the ITCC version of the rule? Half the car has to be on the track. Silly rule, open to interpretation, and in the races I ran, no one followed it and no one was penalized for not doing so. In the Tsukuba pre-season event, everyone that ran up front that I saw in the replay took the Moto Chicane as tight as possible on the exit, usually with two wheels well up into the grass and two wheels either on the curb or on the track. Perfectly legal in 99% of series, but all illegal in ITCC.
That's they type of rule I don't like. Unnecessary, not enforced etc.
ITCC_Andrew
(Banned)
- 18,532
- Kitchener
My idea of an interpretation of those rules is "I can cut every corner, so long as no one sees all four wheels off of the track." Well, that's not exactly F.I.A. like, at all, is it? Most times, there are big bumps, or other things, which could damage the car, when you go off-track.
The thing is, though, with ITCC at Tsukuba, the track was quite tricky there. People make slight mistakes. Running out of room, unintentionally, can't really be penalized, because it's already a penalty (you lose time.)
What I'm talking about, though, is the "I'll put two wheels over the inside of the curb, and as long as two wheels are touching the track, I'm fine" aspect of those "time-trials." Watch any time-trial replay at the Nordschleife. The guys put their inside wheels off-track in EVERY single corner until Flugplatz. That's ridiculous!
Next season, I might just say "all of your wheels must be touching a solid object, unless you're airborne."
I don't put my wheels off-track, over the sides of curbs, why does anyone else?
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
Well, I much preferred the iRacing videos about passing etc. It tells you more than how to apologize for a crash; it tells you how not to get into one.
I like the "draw a line in the middle of the track." line, in the iRacing "driver videos." If someone's on your inside, and you know that they are there, you REALLY can't use that inside line. If you're on someone's inside, you can't use your outside line.
That's the sorta stuff that the GTPlanet OLRs don't cover (running in a large group, WITHOUT causing a crash.)
I want to add rules like the "+25 feet when following" rule. Back in my karting days, the guy in last had to brake before the guy in first, because the guy in last would carry much more speed into turns, because of the draft. Otherwise, you would cause a MASSIVE crash. Believe me, I know about bad race starts. Someone tried to spin me, and I was able to save it, but I was out of the "freight train." No one wanted to let me back in. Then, someone decided to turn in, on me, without even looking, and I was disqualified.
Yeah, there are some pretty obvious rules that can be established, that aren't in the "GTPlanet Online hotLapping Rules." We all know, that the OLRs are from GT5
💡 Because, no matter how awesome the contact concession is, not being in a crash is better. 💡
Thanks for another perfect example Mel of a rule that is unenforcable, unnecessary and redundant. How do you measure 25 feet in GT5? How is it that no other series I know of has a rule like that and yet most are full of clean racing? What you are trying to prevent is, following too closely and causing an incident, is covered by the GTPlanet Rules. Their rules clearly indicate that it is the following car's responsibility to avoid contact. Series that follow and enforce GTP Rules don't have these problems because someone who is constantly running into people is penalized and then punted if it continues. Problem solved.
The iRacing stuff you are referring to isn't their "rules". It's training video's and GTPlanet Rules don't cover driver training. If you want to do some separate training videos go ahead, but it doesn't affect the GTP Rules nor make them outdated.
ITCC_Andrew
(Banned)
- 18,532
- Kitchener
No, but, beginner drivers won't know that they need to brake early. No one knew that on Forza... Everyone always knew their own braking points. Once they were in draft, behind another car, they'd end up off-track, because their braking point changed. Well, if I need to cover that, so be it! Beginners are welcome in the W.M.A., and will only be penalized if they knowingly/intentionally broke a rule. Mistakes happen! And I'm not about to kick someone out of the series, because they don't know that their braking point changes when following behind someone.
If you want to follow the GTP OLRs, that's fine. You can go back to O.R.C.A., or go race with any of the moderators themselves, but, I'm not going to throw beginners into the deep end without any help.
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
All it takes is for you to go into a corner one time, behind someone else on a long straight, to realize the braking point is different and you need to adjust. Anyone who continues to do it repeatedly is either dumb as a box of rocks or just doesn't care what kind of carnage he causes and no amount of rules is going to change that. That's what pre-season races are for, to sort those things out. You had several preseason races and the same people continued to make the same mistakes over and over because they didn't care and didn't respect the rest of the field, they only cared about their own race and tried to justify their actions.
Making a rule of 25 feet which is completely unenforcable doesn't resolve the problem that those drivers were dumb as a box of rocks or just didn't care. It just adds another unnecessary rule to ignore. What are you going to do if someone continuously follows someone into corners 10 feet away from their bumper but causes no incidents? Technically they are breaking the rules. Are the rules only enforced when there is an incident? How do you know in that instance the contact isn't caused by someone braking 15 feet earlier than usual? Where do you measure the 25 feet? Corner entry? Corner exit? Halfway? How do you measure 25 feet? What if the guy in front gets a little squirrely, just enough to slow him a few kms/h? Do I as the following driver have to brake and slow down to retain the gap? If I'm 25 feet back when is it ok to attack your position in a corner if you make an error I think warrants doing so?
You see my point?
- 9,387
- Pittsburgh
- polarbear345
Johnnypenso
Do you plan on racing this season?
- 10,276
- Sacramento CA
- cnd01
I got punted a few times going into hairpins at Motegi in ORCA on Tuesday
. It really isn't a big deal unless the person who hits you passes you and doesn't give the spot back. I know I have punted someone in both the ITCC as well as ORCA. We had a few drivers who thought that kind of behavior was acceptable.
ITCC_Andrew
(Banned)
- 18,532
- Kitchener
I got punted a few times going into hairpins at Motegi in ORCA on Tuesday
It's all part of a learning process. I haven't bumped many people hard in this season. I mean, the thing with damu at Madrid, I'll admit to, but, otherwise... Simply understanding how cars get around corners will help you avoid contact.
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
Why do you ask?
If you truly want to make this series friendy for new drivers then you have to ditch both tuning and the RS tires. RS tires allow for the highest possible entry, exit, corner and straighaway speeds meaning they require the quickest possible reaction times because everything happens in the shortest distance at the highest speeds. Harder tires provide slower corner speeds, slower exit speeds, slower straightaway speed and longer braking distances making it much easier for newer drivers to stay out of trouble because everything is happening at a much slower pace. RS tires also have the highest wear, providing the greatest grip differential from start to finish of a race, therefore requiring the greatest adjustment to braking distances, cornering speeds etc. during a race, not the easiest thing for beginners.
If you took a poll I think you'd find that tuning is by far the hardest part of the game to master. Tuning series are not for beginners. And posting tunes won't necessarily make it any better as no tune is universal. I've tuned cars for guys who said they hated it and someone else in the same tune in the same race, says it's the greatest thing since sliced bread and he's shaved seconds off his lap times. Even when I tune on DS3 for a DS3 user it still isn't universal for DS3 users and the same goes for the wheel. Taking tuning out of the equation altogether is by far the easiest thing for new drivers.
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
I got punted a few times going into hairpins at Motegi in ORCA on Tuesday
People make mistakes, it happens. Rules don't prevent mistakes and no driver or series is perfect, me included. It's whether it's continuous and repeated and whether contact concessions are made if some type of major incident occurs that matters.
ITCC_Andrew
(Banned)
- 18,532
- Kitchener
Thanks for summarizing racing.
Now, let me give tips and set up "rules" to ensure that the drivers know what's going to happen, from the start, 'til the finish of a race.
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
I guess you missed this part even though you quoted it:
[I]" Rules don't prevent mistakes"[/I]
Racing isn't learned in a book, it's learned on a track through practice and trial and error.
ITCC_Andrew
(Banned)
- 18,532
- Kitchener
I guess you missed this part even though you quoted it:
[I]" Rules don't prevent mistakes"[/I]
Racing isn't learned in a book, it's learned on a track through practice and trial and error.
I can provide a nice starting point. But, indeed, that goes for your GTP OLRs, too.
- 10,276
- Sacramento CA
- cnd01
Out of curiosity, when was the last time anyone of us arguing about GTP OLR's actually read the OLR's? I know it has been probably 2 months since I read the OLR's.
- 9,387
- Pittsburgh
- polarbear345
cnd01
Let the lies begin!
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
- 10,276
- Sacramento CA
- cnd01
Hey I believe you. We have some of the closest and cleanest racing battles week in and week out. It doesn't matter what cars we are in.
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
My first rule of thumb is avoid contact at all costs. I don't care where I finish as long as I race hard and don't hit anyone. You notice there were several times Oo Tuesday I tried to draft and pull alongside but backed off at the last minute? That's because I either didn't have enough overlap (thanks GTP) in my opinion or it was too risky for both of us. A lot of guys would have hung in there regardless.
I enjoyed our Tuesday battle for 6th as much as any battle for 1st I've ever had. I think most guys have it in their mind, first and foremost, "I have to win, I have to win", and that's what causes a great number of incidents. No amount of rules is going to make that any different it's human nature, that's why I believe in a small and simple set of rules, positive feedback/training for errors and escalating consequences for violations. More and more rules, just like more and more government, doesn't fix anything.
- 10,276
- Sacramento CA
- cnd01
That's my feelings too. If I know that I don't have the driving ability or the tune to win, I don't drive my car like I do. I am perfectly happy fighting tooth and nail CLEANLY for 6th place. I just want to be allowed space to run my own race. I do my best to give people the same space.
- 8,168
- Hindmarsh Island
- TDZ-4-12-14-88
- XBOX_is_GAY!!!!
Jp, its not so much a loophole as oppose to how you "understand" the rule, the more clear the rule is the similar the understanding is between everyone, like the dive bomb rule, I know I'm the last of the "late brakers" so why should I be penalized for braking at the same point I always do, overtaking someone by catching them by surprise and not actually causing any contact, but the replay would show I dive bombed the other person therefore by ruling I should be penalized, ( hence why I always go for the outside line when performing this procedure, I did it multiple times at DF and pulled it off around the outside,)
Cnd, yes you need the "sucks to be you" attitude to get things done on time, I agree,
Cnd, yes you need the "sucks to be you" attitude to get things done on time, I agree,
ITCC_Andrew
(Banned)
- 18,532
- Kitchener
The divebombing rule was strictly enforced; If "dive bombing" caused a crash, the divebomber always got the penalty.
