ITCC Season II-New Name, New Ideas, post here!

[Johnnypenso]

The divebombing rule was strictly enforced; If "dive bombing" caused a crash, the divebomber always got the penalty.

The purpose of divebombing rules is not to just prevent crashes, it's to prevent people from passing that way too, crash or no crash. This again is another example of a silly rule because in reality the rule in ITCC is, "Divebombing is fine, so long as there is no contact, but if there's contact you get a penalty" From that must follow that as the lead driver into a corner and with no overlap with the car behind me, I don't have the right to choose my line because I have to give some room to the guy behind me just in case he divebombs me, which is legal if he doesn't hit me.

Divebombing rules, properly enforced, make for clean racing. Divebombing rules when enforced like this, if they cause an incident only, make for bad racing. As the lead driver, you should be 100% certain that if you check your mini-map at the turn in point and there is no overlap, you don't have to check it again before you exit the corner. No one will divebomb you and so you can take whatever line you wish in the corner. Your way, if I see someone divebombing me on the inside of a corner and I swerve to avoid them, taking me off the racing line and onto the marbles, the divebomber gets rewarded with better track position and a pass, and I'm penalized by running wide on slippery track and losing a spot. That's a wonderful rule for beginners and every racer for that matter. That exact thing happened to me at Madrid three times if memory serves, I reported it, and nothing was done about it.

If you want to run your series that way, with different divebomb enforcement rules than every other series on GTP that's fine you have that option. But it certainly is no help to beginners, who can never be sure what the driver behind is going to do and have to keep a constant eye on their mirrors, even after the turn in point of a corner. In fact beginners would be much better served with a stricter than usual divebomb rule, perhaps that one has to be nose to nose as opposed to nose to drivers door before the turn in point, in order to execute a pass, which would leave no room for doubt whatsoever.

 

[TDZdave]

^^ our incident at madrid was half caused by me being half asleep at 5.30am on a sunday morning thus not really being aware of my exact point on track plus the limited knowledge of the vehicle, we sorted it through pm's , if my memory serves right, as a result, you requested that myself and 1 or 2 others not serve penalties because the issues were already resolved, once I had learned my race craft by DF I was comfortable throwing it anywhere, I still watch the replay of race 1 at DF where I must have been starting to annoy cnd01 after wearing out his soft tires by driving like a boss lol, I thought I would have got a penalty for my fancy driving standards with those 5 laps, well we weren't crashing but some of the defensive moves may have been marginal, but we had a blast racing for 5th,

As I have stressed before too, madrid and some of the other courses we had in the first few rounds really aren't the best for beginners to a series they might be using cars they haven't used before and also might be inexperienced in close racing,

This is going to sound strange but.... I think we need an oval to race on lol, dirty nascar rooms is where I learned close racing, once I did that a few times I went into a clean room, but I think 40 laps of daytona in these cars might get a bit boring after a while, but would be fun for a short while,

The hardest part is going to monitoring incidents, we know you can't watch every replay and see every incident from every angle, I know that's to hard, plus you don't want 100 whining pm's, so basically we need racing respect rules, like sort it out in pm's, if you can't then take it to the steward, if you can't sort it out or see where to lay blame, reprimand both drivers and if more incidents occur between them then penalize both of them if you can't lay blame,

 

[Johnnypenso]

For our first season, everything went really well. - Mel on ITCC Race Thread

We must have extremely different versions of "really well"...lol. You started out trying to run two divisions there were so may entries. By the second race of the season, more than half the field had dropped out in frustration at the disorganization, the whining, the dirty driving, the lack of enforcement, the 3 hours it took to get in 45 minutes of racing etc...

 

[polarbear345]

For our first season, everything went really well. - Mel on ITCC Race Thread

We must have extremely different versions of "really well"...lol. You started out trying to run two divisions there were so may entries. By the second race of the season, more than half the field had dropped out in frustration at the disorganization, the whining, the dirty driving, the lack of enforcement, the 3 hours it took to get in 45 minutes of racing etc...

I must say, after you all left, the races were quite enjoyable...

 

[Johnnypenso]

I must say, after you all left, the races were quite enjoyable...

If one wants to race in really small fields they do tend to be cleaner races...and drivers who may otherwise not have a chance to win against a strong field can get a taste of victory...

 

[polarbear345]

If one wants to race in really small fields they do tend to be cleaner races...and drivers who may otherwise not have a chance to win against a strong field can get a taste of victory...

We've had 8 driver fields, in a single class event, I think that's adequate.

But I must say... Well played, well played...

I just find it kinda stupid that you've just been ripping into this for the past page or two, which you already did on the season 1 thread when the blow up happened. Also, the whole thing could've/ should've been in pm's.

But I do think the majority of the problem was Mel being too nice. Whether it was waiting or backing out for someone. Then when people would complain, he'd adjust for them. Same thing happened when they would give ideas, he would try to use them. Some of which really should've waited.

 

[Johnnypenso]

We've had 8 driver fields, in a single class event, I think that's adequate.

But I must say... Well played, well played...

I just find it kinda stupid that you've just been ripping into this for the past page or two, which you already did on the season 1 thread when the blow up happened. Also, the whole thing could've/ should've been in pm's.

But I do think the majority of the problem was Mel being too nice. Whether it was waiting or backing out for someone. Then when people would complain, he'd adjust for them. Same thing happened when they would give ideas, he would try to use them. Some of which really should've waited.

Define "ripping into this". I don't see anything above I've posted in this thread that doesn't relate to some kind of constructive criticism. I'm not running around saying, "you suck and your series sucks", I'm saying, "Here's what I thought was wrong with the first season and here's how I'd fix it". Big difference. If you open up a thread for comment that's what your supposed to get isn't it?

Rather than make it personal and about me, and be defensive, why don't you comment on the points I've made directly and keep the discussion on track? If you disagree with anything I've said, feel free to point it out.

There is nothing I ever posted in ITCC that wasn't first raised in a PM to numerous people, numerous times. And I don't believe I ever posted anything negative either. When I left, I posted a list of things that made me leave. If you find anything untruthful or dishonest about the list, feel free to bring it up. If you think I'm the only one that felt that way, you're blind. It was obviously a widespread feeling because there was an exodus around that time for all the reasons I pointed out. If you want it to be different next time around with new drivers, you need to make some changes.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Johnny, I respect you for your help, but, I ask again, are you in or not?



If you're not, save your breath. I was easy on people in the first season. I wanted to run a first season with a decent track record, rather than 18,000,000 penalties, like PURE would've given out. Nothing against PURE, but, everyone thinks that it's too professional for beginners, unless they're not beginners, and know better.



So, while I didn't give out penalties, often, I gave out warnings, gave out penalties, and did what most series should: reminded people about conduct, in a forceful, but polite manner. You weren't there, at Nürburgring, when I spent like four hours reviewing all of the incidents. You still come around here, saying that I didn't know what I was doing, but, yet, you didn't spend four hours deciding on what to do, did you?

 

[TDZdave]

Jp isn't asking for more penalties, just more you taking charge and having control over all aspects of what needs to be done,

I dare say jp would return as I can't see someone being so passionate about what they are saying if they didn't want to be involved in something nor judging by what he has wrote want to see it fall either,

I would hope jp returns to the series, he really was the benchmark,

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Jp isn't asking for more penalties, just more you taking charge and having control,

Oh, I have control. If need be, anyone and everyone can get penalties. I almost penalized myself, after one round, but, after talking with someone else, they actually told me not to penalize myself. Clearly, then, I'm willing to penalize, if need be.


Joe and FH were penalized for their mistakes with tire choices, etc. Certain people, whom I don't mention much anymore, were penalized for swearing... Yeah, I have control, Johnny.

 

[polarbear345]

Define "ripping into this". I don't see anything above I've posted in this thread that doesn't relate to some kind of constructive criticism. I'm not running around saying, "you suck and your series sucks", I'm saying, "Here's what I thought was wrong with the first season and here's how I'd fix it". Big difference. If you open up a thread for comment that's what your supposed to get isn't it?

Rather than make it personal and about me, and be defensive, why don't you comment on the points I've made directly and keep the discussion on track? If you disagree with anything I've said, feel free to point it out.

There is nothing I ever posted in ITCC that wasn't first raised in a PM to numerous people, numerous times. And I don't believe I ever posted anything negative either. When I left, I posted a list of things that made me leave. If you find anything untruthful or dishonest about the list, feel free to bring it up. If you think I'm the only one that felt that way, you're blind. It was obviously a widespread feeling because there was an exodus around that time for all the reasons I pointed out. If you want it to be different next time around with new drivers, you need to make some changes.

You've been over all your points before, you're just bringing them over here. Maybe some people forgot them the first time, but I haven't.

Personally, I hate people that repeat themselves, I generally hate teachers (they do that) and I hate people that nag. So maybe just the fact that you just said that what your saying has been said numerous times, just makes no sense. If you've said them once before, and don't plan on racing in the second season, why care?

Everything you've said has been mostly right, the 50% of the car is stupid, the dive bombing rules in general I think are dumb. Everyone dive bombs... As long as you don't make contact, you should be fine. There's nothing wrong with a aggressive overtake. Having all these rules about "your car must be past 'this' point on the other driver's car blah blah" makes no sense to me. If you think you can pass cleanly: go for it. If it doesn't work, you get a warning, and you should be more careful. If it happens again, penalty. If it happens 3 times; bye.

I don't understand why all these rules are needed. If you want it to be beginner friendly, make it simple;

The passing driver must make sure there is no contact between drivers. If the driver being passed makes a move that causes contact, it is not the passing drivers fault.

BAM. Problem solved.

 

[Johnnypenso]

The passing driver must make sure there is no contact between drivers. If the driver being passed makes a move that causes contact, it is not the passing drivers fault.
BAM. Problem solved.

LOL..brilliant. If that's the passing rule that it's the lead drivers fault if he moves onto the racing line while someone is divebombing him then no, I won't be racing here next season....lol.

 

[cnd01]

The passing driver must make sure there is no contact between drivers. If the driver being passed makes a move that causes contact, it is not the passing drivers fault.

BAM. Problem solved.

Then I probably would have been kicked by now I tend to block the apex of a corner

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Then I probably would have been kicked by now I tend to block the apex of a corner

Polar's talking about how he runs this series... Oh, wait, he doesn't.



Guys, I know who's at fault in crashes. I'm not arguing about it. The investigations will still be there for Season II. Good night.

 

[polarbear345]

LOL..brilliant. If that's the passing rule that it's the lead drivers fault if he moves onto the racing line while someone is divebombing him then no, I won't be racing here next season....lol.

Perfect example of how to dodge a dive bomb- watch my video from deep forest. Cnd goes on and "dive bombs" me. I just adjust my line, and "Do a NICE over under on Cnd"

Thing is, people are going to "dive bomb" no matter if it's a rule or not, being honest with you, most people don't bother reading the OLR's or the rule book Mel wrote. Heck, most people don't even make it past the car list in OP's.

The problems aren't because of the rules, they're because people just simply can't control their car.

And what I did make sense in American English... It's just...well... Written by a American...

Breaking it down; it's the passing drivers responsibility to make sure his/her pass is a clean one. Only exception would be if the driver in front pulls a **** move and comes down on the passer mid corner. (this has happened to me on iracing... It doesn't end pretty)

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

It's not just a rule book! It's a Driver's Handbook! It's like, the Stig's Bible, damnit!

 

[Johnnypenso]

Perfect example of how to dodge a dive bomb- watch my video from deep forest. Cnd goes on and "dive bombs" me. I just adjust my line, and "Do a NICE over under on Cnd"

Thing is, people are going to "dive bomb" no matter if it's a rule or not, being honest with you, most people don't bother reading the OLR's or the rule book Mel wrote. Heck, most people don't even make it past the car list in OP's.

The problems aren't because of the rules, they're because people just simply can't control their car.

And what I did make sense in American English... It's just...well... Written by a American...

Breaking it down; it's the passing drivers responsibility to make sure his/her pass is a clean one. Only exception would be if the driver in front pulls a **** move and comes down on the passer mid corner. (this has happened to me on iracing... It doesn't end pretty)

In your experience in the series you raced in that may be how it was done. It's not my experience. I've raced many, many series were there were few or no divebombs and few if any incidents of questionable conduct. I can't speak for how far people read into the rule, I don't monitor their reading habits, all I know is, on track where it counts, most of the series I've raced in were squeaky, squeaky, clean. Any troubles I've run into usually centered around 1 or 2 competitors, efforts were made to teach and train, and to my best recollection, I've only seen one person removed from a series outside of ITCC.

It's all about attitude and respect for other drivers. If your main goal is to win and it's all you have on your mind, you will always push the limit and make mistakes. If your main goal is to race hard, but be clean and fair and respect the rules and other drivers right to enjoy the race as much as you, and if you can advance and make clean passes and do well under those conditions, you'll have clean racing.

I didn't see the video, but the "over/under" is not something most beginners can do. Most beginners in the lead car, aren't paying attention to where you are behind them, and so when you get "divebombed" they are turning into the apex and can't see you and that's where the problems occur. You're talking about very experienced driving maneuvres on one hand and a beginner series on the other. You can't have it both ways.

 

[TDZdave]

My point is jp that if anyone has heard of GTP they are usually a bit more advanced in driving skill, I wasn't aware of GTP until I reached level 36 and started looking for F1 rooms, then I was told by my second ever online F1 race that I should sign up for the F10 championship, I was too late for sign ups, but I was continually invvited by some of the front runners of the F10 series to mix it up with them during their practice races, after working out how to navigate the GTP website correctly I stumbled across nizmo's advert for a team mate then through him I was introduced to itcc, the only rime we really should be worried about someones skill level is that if we find out they are a level 8 or something, even still if they are level 8 and can set up their car to run top 5 then you really should be worried, lol, but most beginners couldn't set up the car to do that so they would be running down the back or in division 2 which was the intention of div 2,

But this is also why the series needs to start on wide tracks that are almost favorites with everyone, like grand valley, that way the track is wide enough for side by side racing and well known enough for new people to be comfortable with the standard racing line, I have always been a big believer in holding your line and forcing the guy behind you to get creative on their manouver, I get more of a thrill passing around the outside for 5th then I do a dive bomb or a slide job for 1st, but that's just me,

Like golf, cnd01 would be happy with 82 off the stick on a par 72 course, where I would be with 114 off the stick as long as my driving distance average was over 300 yards on the fly, like you said jp everyone has their reason to be victorious, which is why I developed the handicap system, it gives someone a result to aim for as oppose for outright victory, thus hopefully minimizing silly mistakes or incidents,

 

[Johnnypenso]

Jp isn't asking for more penalties, just more you taking charge and having control over all aspects of what needs to be done,

I dare say jp would return as I can't see someone being so passionate about what they are saying if they didn't want to be involved in something nor judging by what he has wrote want to see it fall either,

I would hope jp returns to the series, he really was the benchmark,

Thanks Dave, I appreciate that, although I'm certain there were other drivers who were just as competitive as me, they just got saddled with the wrong car. I had many great, squeaky clean battles with Cnd where we'd race side by side through corners, passing and re-passing without contact, but they only lasted until his tires went off in the Focus.

I would return if all the conditions fell into place around scheduling and of course, better organization, rules that make sense, stronger leadership etc. My passion comes from seeing the huge potential this kind of series has for the future. It was extremely disheartening last season to see the huge amount of enthusiasm from the entire field, be quickly ground down to dust by the mass confusion that went on in pre-season and the first round or two. The potential is there for this to be a great series with big fields and very close racing, which is what I enjoy most in GT5.

But if it's just the same old thing with a couple of tweaks, then no I won't be back. Hopefully you don't need more penalties but sometimes you have to put your foot down. Several of the drivers in the series in preseason, left a lot to be desired in the maturity department and you can't reason with people like that, the only solution is to get rid of them, which was done, to Mel's credit.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Just a shout-out to whisky. He's a beginner to GTP, but he was okay in the ITCC. I mean, he came a bit late to the party, but outqualified me. Beginners with clean intentions are always welcome here. However, that doesn't mean that everyone has to pass based purely on drafting... We welcome creative passes. I've made several passes at turn 4/5 at Suzuka, without contact. Beginners might not know how to hold the outside line like that, but, if they learn, they won't be penalized, unless contact is made.

 

[TDZdave]

^^ like I said before too mel, I'm happy to provide training and set up info to any person new or old to any series I'm in, once my internet is sorted I'd be happy to return in the same capacity, which just gave me an idea,

Seeing as there is already 5-7 seasoned drivers returning to the series, why don't we make the teams championship include new drivers, say me and niz had jormo subaru, and joe truck ran the older subaru, if we made joetruck our "jr partner" in the team running the older subaru, then we could help him with set ups and stuff, but they don't need to be in the same brand car, it could be like an "adopt a team mate" sorta thing,

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Not a bad idea.



I'll consider it. Along with the WMA Driver's Handbook, though, there will, hopefully, be plenty of tips etc. to draw from. Speaking of which, I've got plenty of time to kill... Time to upload like 90 photos to the WMA Driver's Handbook, explaining advanced driving lines...

 

[Johnnypenso]

^^ like I said before too mel, I'm happy to provide training and set up info to any person new or old to any series I'm in, once my internet is sorted I'd be happy to return in the same capacity, which just gave me an idea,

Seeing as there is already 5-7 seasoned drivers returning to the series, why don't we make the teams championship include new drivers, say me and niz had jormo subaru, and joe truck ran the older subaru, if we made joetruck our "jr partner" in the team running the older subaru, then we could help him with set ups and stuff, but they don't need to be in the same brand car, it could be like an "adopt a team mate" sorta thing,

The team concept is a good way to help the newer guys along if the team sticks together. I'm not sure I'd make it a rule though, more of something to be encouraged. I've done that sort of thing many times, taken someone under my wing to show them the ropes and it's been quite successful at times but my tunes don't always work for others.

What might also be helpful are on track training sessions for newer guys or anyone just looking to learn. Following someone around a track to see where they are weak and what elements of a fast lap they are missing, can be quite beneficial. A sort of training school or training sessions held on a regular basis or upon request. I've done that also with some success. You can't learn much from a book about racing, you have to do it on the track, and constant feedback helps a lot.

 

[polarbear345]

The team concept is a good way to help the newer guys along if the team sticks together. I'm not sure I'd make it a rule though, more of something to be encouraged. I've done that sort of thing many times, taken someone under my wing to show them the ropes and it's been quite successful at times but my tunes don't always work for others.

What might also be helpful are on track training sessions for newer guys or anyone just looking to learn. Following someone around a track to see where they are weak and what elements of a fast lap they are missing, can be quite beneficial. A sort of training school or training sessions held on a regular basis or upon request. I've done that also with some success. You can't learn much from a book about racing, you have to do it on the track, and constant feedback helps a lot.

I think that idea would be better if it was not for this series, but for the WMA in general.

Link: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=263037

 

[cnd01]

I like the idea of a training program. I am more interested in what the car selection for next year is. The wide variety of cars we see this year is a double edged sword IMO. While it looks great to see everyone running a different car, it makes speccing a nightmare. I am also against running more than 1 powertrain in this series. Either make it all FF's or all FR's

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

I like the idea of a training program. I am more interested in what the car selection for next year is. The wide variety of cars we see this year is a double edged sword IMO. While it looks great to see everyone running a different car, it makes speccing a nightmare. I am also against running more than 1 powertrain in this series. Either make it all FF's or all FR's

Well, FF makes it more PaulMac like. We all know why the BTCC and MINI Cup races are so aggressive. FF cars love smashing. 👍 👍



I mean, it makes it a LOT easier to recover, if someone bumps someone else, and balances the field.

 

[NizmoDr3]

I've just read through all the posts in this thread ... I agree with both sides ... We need more discipline in the series ... I mean it's easier to control 5/6 guys than 16, but all that needs to be done is stricter enforcement of regulations and BIGGER brass balls ...

Luckily, some of S1's problem children have left, but it shouldn't mean that we should sit back and think that all will be merry ... it doesn't work that way ...

I believe that there were too many fingers in the pot with the Leadership/Stewarding ... it tended to aggravate and complicate certain decisions ... have 1 or 2 guys running the show with the final say and that's it ...

I do want to rejoin in S2 and I think that FR's should be the drivetrain of choice ... the amount of FR's available are endless and the racing should be tight ...

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

I was thinking of FFs. I've got ten of them, that I had previously spec'd. I'm also thinking of racing hards instead. Anyways, we'll see.

 

[NizmoDr3]

If it's gonna be FF's, then count me out ... can't drive them to save my life

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

If it's gonna be FF's, then count me out ... can't drive them to save my life

Season II's still a long ways away. We're running Spec Miatas in the ITCC off-season.