Just Raced Under The New Algorithms and Rules

[kilesa4568]

What makes you believe that there won't be S racers because of this? The current S racers will either race with the new implementation (which we ALL now will be dialed down.. and adjusted) or be replaced with new ones.

The quality will drop with new ones as there'll be less stiff competition to oppose them.

 

[dabz343]

First, I appreciate everyone's input here on 1.13 Penalty System. It reminds me of the constructive discussion that occurred when the Grip Bug was discovered resulting in a swift action by PD. I'm hopeful that as the inaugural FIA season approaches, sound improvements are on the horizon.

To assist the ongoing discussion, I've made an attempt to capture the leading themes emerging from this community. The below list is not organized in any particular manner, but I suspect your ongoing engagement will naturally prioritize some more than others.

Emerging Themes/Opportunities

1. Contact initiation/fault is inconsistent at best - only drivers at fault need to be penalized. We understand there may not be a perfect scenario, but currently it lacks finesse and plagued with inconsistencies.
2. Contact at upper levels is too strict (S/S and A/S) - harsh penalties will reduce incidents, but may severely undercut the enjoyment of competitive racing.
3. Tiered penalty system (if indeed there is one between A/S and above vs B/S and below) - may introduce an unnecessary variable that could result in gaming the system especially within mixed level races by lower ranks. Is it more sensible to have one consistent system for penalty detection, but lessen the impact for lower ranks?
4. Matchmaking needs attention - this may be a highly underestimated opportunity to improve the quality of races within any penalty system.
5. Bad behavior like weaving, blocking, brake checking, etc - reporting players is a great feature, but this needs immediate attention as dirty drivers should receive their karma during the race.
6. Good behavior is underappreciated - rewarding good racecraft may be another effective form of encouraging desired behaviors, especially during a race.
7. Serving penalties is causing havoc - lack of protocol on how to serve penalties is causing drivers to take evasive maneuvers, triggering more incidents/penalties.
8. HUD improvements - elevating the visibility around the driver will certainly improve awareness and decision-making during close racing regardless of which game view is used.
9. Driver aggression and racecraft - perhaps the most important aspect for me personally. How do we get to a level where the majority of drivers comprehend what is expected on the limit? We have the Driving School, Circuit Experience, do we need Sportsmanship Training?
10. Increasing participation in Sport Mode - actions to elevate the enjoyment of drivers with varying degrees of skill/equipment/time/etc. is not working, resulting in 90+% opting to stay away from Sport Mode. How does PD overcome this hurdle?

I'm sure I left out some important thoughts, please feel free to build and elaborate.

Lastly, I'd like to share a notion that was sparked through a conversation I had last night with a behavioral scientist working on AI in autonomous vehicles. What if the new penalty algorithm is a convolutional neural network following a reinforced learning protocol? Meaning it is learning as we race, leveraging our races and analyzing the incidents through a series of curated test sets. Over many iterations (millions), the reinforced learning AI would be as good or perhaps even better than any professional race steward mainly due to the sheer volume of races examined. IF this is what PD has just unveiled, then we may be on our way to a beautifully sophisticated system. This seems to be the future that developers need to acknowledge.

 

[Outspacer]

Please show me where in my post I single out any one specific player including you or assume anything where you are concerned?

I didn't say singled out, I said lumped together

The only people I can see having concerns are those that have gamed the system using overly aggressive racing tactics to advance positions while ...

That literally says you think everyone with concerns has gamed with aggressive tactics... how the hell else am I supposed to read it?

edit: OK, maybe I should read as "if you're clean, don't worry"... then I'd simply disagree.

I have responded in earlier post that as gamers we are subject to whatever PD decides to implement in rules for the game they designed and control. I have plainly stated that if we choose to play the game we choose to play by the rules they institute.

How is that not responding?

WE have a choice accept the current rules and play the game, do not accept the rules and play something different. Pretty simple actually.

I may not like all the rules or how the game handles different things but I decide whether to still play or not to play. I actually quit playing for almost two weeks because post holidays the racing was nothing but ramming and crashfest and I did not find that enjoyable.

I find the changes to the penalties to be better than previous to the changes but each person has their own priorities.

It's not furthering the discussion here, simply trying to shut it down... "play or quit" is pretty much what you said. Even now I still have no idea what you think about 2 sec time penalties for trivial contact. edit2: and no idea what DR you have, so which rules you're playing by.

I know you watched the '14 superstars' race at DT - some of the fastest and fairest racers out there. Great races, that would've been ruined if this 2 sec time penalty for a nudge was in effect. 10 laps in, Snow is following about 1/10 sec behind Snake, makes a move round the outside of the last turn taking the lead back off him, but Snake nudges him slightly on the exit, both pull over to serve a penalty............................................ now in 7th and 8th, ............ So how can you say this penalty nonsense will only affect dirty or aggressive drivers?

 

[djidane57]

After this race I'd, have to say that although the new system maybe an improvement in some department's in needs improvement in others.

An example of it working is the first corner (rarely do you see an incident free start on the 24H circuit)

After that I get a 4sec penalty for an overtake that seemed as legit as you can get round the nordschleife.

Then I seemed to get another 4+sec pen for getting hit whilst slowing down for my pen.

Later in the lap I come across a car stopping on the racing line, i slam my breaks on as I realise he's not moving only to be ghosted through. I think it need to be clearer as to when cars are going to be solid again cos with the was people are breaking g to scrub off penalties is getting crazy.

See what you think

this is outright outrageous , that is a crazy good overtake around the outside but the game doesnt like sniffing around other cars

 

[AshenGraey]

Reading though this, I thought, well maybe the direction they decided to go will probably make people race cleaner. I'm currently A/S and after doing 2 races at nurb today. I'm like, I'll hold off from the sport more for a bit or maybe when a better track/car combo comes around because those penalties were just brutal. They just piled up whether it was your fault or not.

 

[kimkafwan]

There is a lot wrong with this post. It's a bad attitude to have and is the reason why avoidable accidents happen. Plain and simple don't overtake if it is high risk. If you are taking that much of a risk then you are not fast enough in the first place. Even against good defensive driving you can use intelligence, just drop back a tenth or so and get the faster line through the corner to take them on the way to the next. I'm DR S and I didn't get there through barging past people, I got there through being consistent and picking my opportunities to overtake with the lowest risk, respecting everybody else on the track.

I know you're not only fast but also a "good" player, we don't play in the same league. I'm not denying i can be aggressive, i know (almost) my limits/what i can do or not, i didn't brag about being an elite player because i am S/S and have no shame to admit i'm a "low" drS http://www.kudosprime.com/gts/stats.php?profile=2586691 but i honestly don't think that i'm a brainless player.
I can be "clean" when other are


There is a misunderstanding between people talking about players which don't deserve to be srS and why the new system is a good thing (and i think it is) and people who dislike the way penalties are distributed.
The "hey look how clean/fair/good i am because i only tried to stay on track" attitude is meh imho because can they pretend to be perfect in every occasion? to have the good reaction in every scenario? the good time reaction? always the other guy fault? personnaly i'm far from perfect and i don't want to "look" good, i want to "be" good like the majority. But i know mistakes can happened against our will, a third party can be involved etc. so yes i don't always mind if i being bumped/hit/whatever.

Being penalised for my mistake/behaviour/etc. ? fair enough. Being afraid to ruin an other player race because he would receive the same penalty? nope.
I don't want the previous system back, i want "fair" penalties. It's easy for players like you who will always be in front. It's easy for players who never will take risk staying in their confort zone.
What's the point to "race" if we can't be mano a mano? without feeling guilty to make a mistake?

Then again it's only my point of view.

An e-sports game needs its top players.

No, the third choice is to criticise what they do. I can't imagine you would deny people who paid for the game the opportunity to provide rational and constructive criticism, right?

The 2 sec time penalties do NOTHING to help the categorisation of players by SR. Indirectly, I think they make it worse (much much worse, if it's true that lower ranked players don't get them, or not as many of them).

As i mentioned before it's easier for beginners. I played with a new account.


Penalty for being off track? yes.
Penalty for short cuting? yes.
Penalty for being hit? no.
Penalty for bumping into someone? no.
Slowing down to rub off penalty? no need.
Ghost cars? everywhere.
Did the german player learn anything about fair play? ...

 

[UnkaD]

Alright, after more races I am beyond frustrated. I have to drive like my car is made of nitro, but any DR.B driver can push me out of the way as they please without penalty. Screw this mess.

Edit: And it's happened. I'm back in DR.B.

I can confirm. Penalties between DR. A and B are night and day. Got bumped on from behind on a straight. Nothing. Made a mistake and slid into someone passing on my inside. Nothing.

At the end only the A/S drivers at the front had a red dot. The back was probably just a crashfest.

 

[Voodoovaj]

What you describe is a player that didn't get proper penalized for the risks he took and put on the rest of the racers under the old system. So you naturally had more room for driving like that before the punishment was real. I would imagine that you might have gotten the odd penalty but unlike now they did not matter that much, they were more like a annoyance that you had to know how to get rid off without consequence.

We had several months to learn the old system, and within the next months we will know by heart how this works and race accordingly. Maybe a few current S drivers will have to live without that rank, but i am certain that others will take their place and be the new fastest guys and girls on the block.

I am more than happy that EVERYONE has to race with much more care than before, some of the racing i have seen and that has been considered "racing" could have fatal consequences in real races, FIA would not want the official races to be examples of that.

Again with the assumption that I am at fault and that I am the one initiating contact. I know there are a lot of posts in this thread, but I clearly spelled out that I have yet to be the aggressor in any case where I have been penalized.

Last night, I was lucky to not receive a penalty for being hit from behind and from the side. A player, several cars ahead, decided to serve his penalty right after turn 1 at Bathurst just after the start of the race. I assume he incurred the penalty at turn one. With half a pack of cars closing down on him, chaos ensued. Cars where spinning and crashing everywhere and, as I did my best to avoid the carnage, I was hit from behind by another driver not paying attention and hit from the side by a driver spinning in the grass. I immediately thought "race is over". How I didn't get penalized is beyond me given what I had seen to this point.

As I have stated, I am now racing scared. I'm terrified of contact from others. I don't even attempt to fight off passes and I don't dare make any. If can manage to draft pass someone, I pray that they have the brains to stay in their lanes, and so far they haven't. That is not racing.

During the Salem witch trials, if you were suspected of witchcraft, you must have been a witch. That' what it seems is happening here. If we complain about contact, we MUST be bad drivers initiating contact.

And "EVERYONE" does not have to race more carefully. That's the point. Only higher ranking drivers do. The higher ranked driver is assumed at fault, so now lower ranked drivers can make bone head moves with less to lose.

I haven't been penalized since the new rules went into play, but I stopped playing sport mode and I only play the FIA races. So far, I have been the highest finishing A driver, but racing like I'm the boy in the bubble isn't fun and it isn't realistic. As I've stated in the past, if this system were implemented in the FIA for real, our driver heroes would never have won a championship.

 

[tofuhero]

First, I appreciate everyone's input here on 1.13 Penalty System. It reminds me of the constructive discussion that occurred when the Grip Bug was discovered resulting in a swift action by PD. I'm hopeful that as the inaugural FIA season approaches, sound improvements are on the horizon.

To assist the ongoing discussion, I've made an attempt to capture the leading themes emerging from this community. The below list is not organized in any particular manner, but I suspect your ongoing engagement will naturally prioritize some more than others.

Emerging Themes/Opportunities

1. Contact initiation/fault is inconsistent at best - only drivers at fault need to be penalized. We understand there may not be a perfect scenario, but currently it lacks finesse and plagued with inconsistencies.
2. Contact at upper levels is too strict (S/S and A/S) - harsh penalties will reduce incidents, but may severely undercut the enjoyment of competitive racing.
3. Tiered penalty system (if indeed there is one between A/S and above vs B/S and below) - may introduce an unnecessary variable that could result in gaming the system especially within mixed level races by lower ranks. Is it more sensible to have one consistent system for penalty detection, but lessen the impact for lower ranks?
4. Matchmaking needs attention - this may be a highly underestimated opportunity to improve the quality of races within any penalty system.
5. Bad behavior like weaving, blocking, brake checking, etc - reporting players is a great feature, but this needs immediate attention as dirty drivers should receive their karma during the race.
6. Good behavior is underappreciated - rewarding good racecraft may be another effective form of encouraging desired behaviors, especially during a race.
7. Serving penalties is causing havoc - lack of protocol on how to serve penalties is causing drivers to take evasive maneuvers, triggering more incidents/penalties.
8. HUD improvements - elevating the visibility around the driver will certainly improve awareness and decision-making during close racing regardless of which game view is used.
9. Driver aggression and racecraft - perhaps the most important aspect for me personally. How do we get to a level where the majority of drivers comprehend what is expected on the limit? We have the Driving School, Circuit Experience, do we need Sportsmanship Training?
10. Increasing participation in Sport Mode - actions to elevate the enjoyment of drivers with varying degrees of skill/equipment/time/etc. is not working, resulting in 90+% opting to stay away from Sport Mode. How does PD overcome this hurdle?

I'm sure I left out some important thoughts, please feel free to build and elaborate.

Lastly, I'd like to share a notion that was sparked through a conversation I had last night with a behavioral scientist working on AI in autonomous vehicles. What if the new penalty algorithm is a convolutional neural network following a reinforced learning protocol? Meaning it is learning as we race, leveraging our races and analyzing the incidents through a series of curated test sets. Over many iterations (millions), the reinforced learning AI would be as good or perhaps even better than any professional race steward mainly due to the sheer volume of races examined. IF this is what PD has just unveiled, then we may be on our way to a beautifully sophisticated system. This seems to be the future that developers need to acknowledge.

My only thought re: #2 is that PD might want to make sure the streamed FIA races are contact-free. I'm not convinced so far though that upper rank drivers are in fact penalized differently. The whole system has always had some amount of inconsistency, so I think it's a bit premature to conclude behavior based on a few videos people have posted.

As for the machine learning, I'd considered that, but I'm not sure PD has too many AI experts on staff? It's definitely possible, though they would need to have a huge training set of "good" races for the AI to apply that learning meaningfully to ours.

 

[UnkaD]

I'm not convinced so far though that upper rank drivers are in fact penalized differently.

I just fell from DR. A to B. It IS different. In A you get penalized for sneezing. As a B driver all sorts of contact is allowed.

I noticed it before when B drivers would hit me and nothing happened. Now that I'm stuck among them again it's a completely different game.

 

[Mr616]

Right here's the first 2 laps of my first daily gr4 tonight. No divebombs at first corner and most people reacting to a yellow flag. This is what I want to see on track and replay. Not ghosted cars but players reacting like they would if they were on track for real.

I have some more footage from the same race of zero penalty contact that in my view was accidental by all 3 cars involved which I'll put up either later tonight or tomorrow.



Sorry the quality is bit crap.

 

[Voodoovaj]

My only thought re: #2 is that PD might want to make sure the streamed FIA races are contact-free. I'm not convinced so far though that upper rank drivers are in fact penalized differently. The whole system has always had some amount of inconsistency, so I think it's a bit premature to conclude behavior based on a few videos people have posted.

As for the machine learning, I'd considered that, but I'm not sure PD has too many AI experts on staff? It's definitely possible, though they would need to have a huge training set of "good" races for the AI to apply that learning meaningfully to ours.

If they had someone who could do, even rudimentary, machine learning, the BoP system would be using it. Instead, it's a manually adjusted system. I strongly doubt the penalty system is using it.

I'm doing pretty good in the FIA series this week and I had hoped to race the top 24 races. I'm usually in the rooms with Snow and Hellzfire anyway, but with the system as it is. I will take a "hard no" on any FIA races either until this plays out for a few weeks. I have yet to see people behaving differently. Who know, maybe with less players overall, I can get my S rating back.

Right here's the first 2 laps of my first daily gr4 tonight. No divebombs at first corner and most people reacting to a yellow flag. This is what I want to see on track and replay. Not ghosted cars but players reacting like they would if they were on track for real.

I have some more footage from the same race of zero penalty contact that in my view was accidental by all 3 cars involved which I'll put up either later tonight or tomorrow.



Sorry the quality is bit crap.

Well, perspectives are different I suppose.

I see a bunch of people in a parade, scared to touch any one around them, and the only person I see you pass is some poor soul who looks like he was penalized for avoiding an accident.

This is what you want? It sure isn't what I want.

Sure, I want people to pay attention (which most don't) and I want them to be more aware when a pass happens (which they aren't). No one likes the dive bomb, but rather than fix that one problem, they've gone and made this mess.

I made up 5 place last night through other people's misfortune. I didn't have to race anyone. The S drivers in front of me were too fast to catch and penalties to others gave me a 15 second gap. I feel like I could have put the car in auto drive, grabbed a beer, and watched netflix for the amount of involvement I put into the race.

Ha, I wonder how this board will feel if this implementation is a BUG and the reverse was actually intended!! Harsher penalties to everyone BELOW A rather than above. Won't that be interesting if it plays out?

 

[Sven Jurgens]

Penalties should not depend on DR level. They should be tied to SR level only and be the same for the whole room. Getting punted by a DR.B driver on Nurb 24h and not getting the penalty message for the player that crashed into you is not right.

I've been hit from behind 3 times in one race, twice by the same player. I have to slow down for penalties and end with a red S. The other 2 drivers blue S. That just doesn't sit right.

It is better than before though, no more annoying draft tapping in every corner on the Nurb. Most sections simply aren't suited for overtaking.

 

[kjeldsen]

Again with the assumption that I am at fault and that I am the one initiating contact. I know there are a lot of posts in this thread, but I clearly spelled out that I have yet to be the aggressor in any case where I have been penalized.

Last night, I was lucky to not receive a penalty for being hit from behind and from the side. A player, several cars ahead, decided to serve his penalty right after turn 1 at Bathurst just after the start of the race. I assume he incurred the penalty at turn one. With half a pack of cars closing down on him, chaos ensued. Cars where spinning and crashing everywhere and, as I did my best to avoid the carnage, I was hit from behind by another driver not paying attention and hit from the side by a driver spinning in the grass. I immediately thought "race is over". How I didn't get penalized is beyond me given what I had seen to this point.

As I have stated, I am now racing scared. I'm terrified of contact from others. I don't even attempt to fight off passes and I don't dare make any. If can manage to draft pass someone, I pray that they have the brains to stay in their lanes, and so far they haven't. That is not racing.

During the Salem witch trials, if you were suspected of witchcraft, you must have been a witch. That' what it seems is happening here. If we complain about contact, we MUST be bad drivers initiating contact.

And "EVERYONE" does not have to race more carefully. That's the point. Only higher ranking drivers do. The higher ranked driver is assumed at fault, so now lower ranked drivers can make bone head moves with less to lose.

I haven't been penalized since the new rules went into play, but I stopped playing sport mode and I only play the FIA races. So far, I have been the highest finishing A driver, but racing like I'm the boy in the bubble isn't fun and it isn't realistic. As I've stated in the past, if this system were implemented in the FIA for real, our driver heroes would never have won a championship.

I think you are correct that the penalties are to harsh on the higher rank drivers, and i am certain they will be dialed down, but i really hope they will be very very careful on how they do it, because the penalties should be felt by everyone (yes also the low ranks).

In principle i prefer these rules over the old ones, even with the harsh penalties for high ranks, the races are so much better here in slow end, it is absurd we hard to wait so long. 3 races on N24 with clean race bonus and 2 victories and one 2nd place.. before this patch it would have been a fantasy.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

I just experienced it myself now. DR.B driver draft bumping me at every corner, upsetting my line then pushing himself through on the inside using me as a guard rail and sending me into the grass at corner exit. Zero response from the penalty system. 2 corners later a DR.A driver slightly taps me SR Down, 2 sec penalty.

B/S getting mixed with A/S and not having to drive to the same rules is messed up. He did exit with a red rating though, probably from doing worse to other drivers. It worked for him as he gained more places while I saw the remains of the yellow flags left behind.

Penalty rules should depend on SR, not DR, stupid.

Edit: come on, next race 4 A/S in front, 12 immune B/S lined up behind. Time to switch to C...

And again, maybe S/S and A/S players have given up on Nurb. I'm 40K DR 99 SR and no one to play with in the weekend... Well 5 A/S players in an otherwise B/S room.

 

[Seb Weasel]

I agree with you, I don't see what you did wrong and mentally archive this in the unfair penalty folder . Especially since you both got 5s penalty...

Ok, so here's a good documented example of there being no defender/attacker or as I like to call it, the socialist shared result algorithm of GTS SR.

First I want to say RaceFace is a phenomenal driver. Fair, fast, top 10 lap time boards etc. I have NO qualms with him at all. I'm a 08:20 around the ring here and he's 10 secs quicker. However, he made a mistake somewhere along the line and has ended up behind me. I'm sure he's not happy with that and wants to move forward. But this is a good result for me, so he's going to need to pass me properly. This would be good DR for me. From my view, driving hard (for me) and get tapped into the right hander unsettling the rear and meaning I have to counter steer a bit. No problem I suppose, bit pushy. (contact at 0:03s)



Now this is the same incident from the replay looking backwards at RaceFace (contact at 0:25s)



So there ya go. I lost SR, DR, and a good finish all because a good racer accidentally tapped me in the rear.
THIS is why I personally think the system is rubbish.

Lemme know.

(PS - the onboard where I don't take the penalty in time is because I've not had that +5 sec escalation before - man does it go up quickly! LOL! I accept every on top of the 5 sec I got from the tap is my fault, no doubt)

PPS A-S

 

[Mr616]

If they had someone who could do, even rudimentary, machine learning, the BoP system would be using it. Instead, it's a manually adjusted system. I strongly doubt the penalty system is using it.

I'm doing pretty good in the FIA series this week and I had hoped to race the top 24 races. I'm usually in the rooms with Snow and Hellzfire anyway, but with the system as it is. I will take a "hard no" on any FIA races either until this plays out for a few weeks. I have yet to see people behaving differently. Who know, maybe with less players overall, I can get my S rating back.



Well, perspectives are different I suppose.

I see a bunch of people in a parade, scared to touch any one around them, and the only person I see you pass is some poor soul who looks like he was penalized for avoiding an accident.

This is what you want? It sure isn't what I want.

Sure, I want people to pay attention (which most don't) and I want them to be more aware when a pass happens (which they aren't). No one likes the dive bomb, but rather than fix that one problem, they've gone and made this mess.

I made up 5 place last night through other people's misfortune. I didn't have to race anyone. The S drivers in front of me were too fast to catch and penalties to others gave me a 15 second gap. I feel like I could have put the car in auto drive, grabbed a beer, and watched netflix for the amount of involvement I put into the race.

Ha, I wonder how this board will feel if this implementation is a BUG and the reverse was actually intended!! Harsher penalties to everyone BELOW A rather than above. Won't that be interesting if it plays out?

It was 2 laps out of 17. I was already short shifting and saving tyres. It was my first race and didn't have a strat sorted. I'm not one for bulldozing through and exploring limits so early in a long race. As the night wears on I'll push a little harder.

When qually times can cover a grid of 12 or more by under a second, do you really think you'll be overtaking people for fun on every lap? And at the start of a 17 lap race?

 

[Outspacer]

As i mentioned before it's easier for beginners. I played with a new account.


Penalty for being off track? yes.
Penalty for short cuting? yes.
Penalty for being hit? no.
Penalty for bumping into someone? no.
Slowing down to rub off penalty? no need.
Ghost cars? everywhere.
Did the german player learn anything about fair play? ...

I can confirm. Penalties between DR. A and B are night and day. Got bumped on from behind on a straight. Nothing. Made a mistake and slid into someone passing on my inside. Nothing.

Penalties should not depend on DR level. They should be tied to SR level only and be the same for the whole room. Getting punted by a DR.B driver on Nurb 24h and not getting the penalty message for the player that crashed into you is not right.

DR should measure pace, and SR should measure safety. If they both do their job properly, sure, you might notice that higher DR tends to mean higher SR, but linking one to the other in any of their calculations is a mistake.

Having time penalties for collisions without being able to (mostly) correctly determine fault is wrong by itself, but making it different at different DR levels is really wrong. And making it a hard cut at a certain level just compounds the error, because people who are just a few points away from each other are playing by totally different rules. That applies just as much if it was based on SR level.

The rules we play by should definitely be the same for everyone at every level. The only case I can think of where that wouldn't apply is for the SR calc to be slightly different based on SR points - for example, a lower SR player might get more +SR for a clean lap than a high SR player. But really that's just an internal detail of the algorithm, that nobody would notice.

I'm afraid I really can't entertain thinking about how to make the time penalties right, because they're just so fundamentally the wrong way to address something that wasn't a huge problem to begin with. Improved SR calcs should've been enough.

 

[Voodoovaj]

It was 2 laps out of 17. I was already short shifting and saving tyres. It was my first race and didn't have a strat sorted. I'm not one for bulldozing through and exploring limits so early in a long race. As the night wears on I'll push a little harder.

When qually times can cover a grid of 12 or more by under a second, do you really think you'll be overtaking people for fun on every lap? And at the start of a 17 lap race?

Well I just did the GR3 race at the Nurburgring with @Sven Jurgens .

I started from the back to keep all the trouble in front of me. I got 1.2 seconds of penalty for running off track to avoid some turn one chaos. Then, I got another minor penalty for being hit from behind by a B player in the last hard braking zone.

2 seconds penalty at the end of the race that dropped me from 6th to 7th (after starting 13th) AND I got a clean race bonus.

So which is it? Am I a super dirty driver for "cutting the track" and driving dirty, ergo deserving of the penalties, or am I a clean driver deserving of the clean race bonus? It can't be both, unless we're talking about the flawed logic of the current penalty system.

I think you are correct that the penalties are to harsh on the higher rank drivers, and i am certain they will be dialed down, but i really hope they will be very very careful on how they do it, because the penalties should be felt by everyone (yes also the low ranks).

In principle i prefer these rules over the old ones, even with the harsh penalties for high ranks, the races are so much better here in slow end, it is absurd we hard to wait so long. 3 races on N24 with clean race bonus and 2 victories and one 2nd place.. before this patch it would have been a fantasy.

Then inverting this system should make it better. The higher ranks will be penalized for questionable moves and the lower ranks will learn that contact is frowned upon.

That's the way it should have been from the start!

I am going to sacrifice a chicken and pray to the gods of speed that PD inverts the system.

 

[SHGTP]

Right here's the first 2 laps of my first daily gr4 tonight. No divebombs at first corner and most people reacting to a yellow flag. This is what I want to see on track and replay. Not ghosted cars but players reacting like they would if they were on track for real.

I have some more footage from the same race of zero penalty contact that in my view was accidental by all 3 cars involved which I'll put up either later tonight or tomorrow.



Sorry the quality is bit crap.

After more than a dozen races the racing is unquestionably much cleaner and realistic. It was really becoming a pain seeing people divebomb and think contact is acceptable. Contact should be avoided at all times. Evening in series known for such things, ie the BTCC, drivers are looked down upon for nudges to get a competitive advantage.

 

[tofuhero]

Most of the penalties I see come from contact in turns, but as someone earlier said, the SR system has no concept of attackers and defenders. The penalty system will always fail without having this knowledge. There are many difficult situations for the SR system to parse, but it should be easy to know if a trailing car has a right to go side-to-side with the leading car going into a turn, because this is merely a question of positioning. So if it detects the trailing car does not have a right to stick their nose in and should be backing off, any contact in that turn should automatically result in a penalty for the attacker only. This seems like low-hanging fruit to me and would solve many penalty situations.

 

[dabz343]

My only thought re: #2 is that PD might want to make sure the streamed FIA races are contact-free. I'm not convinced so far though that upper rank drivers are in fact penalized differently. The whole system has always had some amount of inconsistency, so I think it's a bit premature to conclude behavior based on a few videos people have posted.

Yes, point #2 and all other points on the list are mere observations coming in from drivers and are not meant to provide definitive conclusions. It's a work in progress organized in a way to help those experiencing the new penalty system to keep an eye on important themes others have already expressed. We need more data to be sure, hopefully this list helps to compare and contrast topics in an orderly fashion.

As for the machine learning, I'd considered that, but I'm not sure PD has too many AI experts on staff? It's definitely possible, though they would need to have a huge training set of "good" races for the AI to apply that learning meaningfully to ours.

I believe training sets can be gathered from numerous contexts to include real life motorsports, not just game footage. I'm not an expert here, but integrating GTS' current telemetry which allows features like ghosting, PD may not be too far off.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

That literally says you think everyone with concerns has gamed with aggressive tactics... how the hell else am I supposed to read it?

If a racer has obtained their ranking whether DR or SR racing at their realistic skill level and has not gained their ranking level through gaming the penalty system using bulldozer driving tactics there is no doubt in my mind that such racer has the skillset to repeat the needed performance to maintain or if needed regain their correct ranking.

The only racers that I can see not being able to maintain their current ranking are drivers who on a regular basis are making moves that result in penalties whether it be contacting other cars or cutting corners and in the past negated such acts by scrubbing off penalties with little to no reduction in pace and gaining positions due to their breaking the rules.

In the past the penalties had no teeth and rarely cost an offender anything over a race distance and yes some players knew exactly how to manipulate and game the system to their maximum advantage.

How many times in the past I would have a racer dive bomb the inside of a corner, hit me the driver on the outside and gain the position and receive no penalty while I being the "innocent" driver would get a 4 or 5 second penalty in addition to being rammed and the guilty party gained a position in the race to boot!

You are damned right I am glad they changed the penalty system to quit rewarding such behavior.

Even now I still have no idea what you think about 2 sec time penalties for trivial contact. edit2: and no idea what DR you have, so which rules you're playing by.

I think currently the penalties are a little stiff for incidental contact BUT the game has allowed manipulation of the penalty system for so long it in my opinion takes this sort of strictness to begin changing the way people approach what is acceptable and what is not as far as contact on an overtake.

I have found that the races I have done since the change have for the first time since the holidays been where the dive bombing and ramming with bulldozer overtaking tactics have been reduced back to a level that makes the races more enjoyable than anytime in the last 6 or so weeks.

So I am fine with the penalties compared to what the racing had become without them. Does that clearly spell out my thoughts on the new 2 second penalty?

Not saying this is the case as I know nothing about you but even in my lowly level DR B

I had posted much earlier in the thread what my DR level was. I am DR B and SR S.

I am not at DR S or A so I do not know what the difference in the penalty may be. I can say that the higher a racers ranking the better that racer should be in all facets of car control and race craft over a lower ranked player.

If the standards are not higher why have different rankings? A racer in a pro class of IMSA is going to be expected to be at a higher skill level and make better racing decisions over a club racer racing in local club level events. Should be no difference in the game.

I would have no problem if PD were to separate the higher class of racers where the penalties were stiffer from the lower class of racers which the penalties were more lax.

I have stated I feel the current difference in the penalties for the upper classes is to actually separate out the true "S" rated racers who have the skillset to race in close proximity with virtually no contact at best to absolute minimum contact at worst.

I do not think PD wants to risk a driver slipping into the finals in the official FIA season and causing havoc in the first official FIA final races.

This is just my personal speculation but with so much being put into this e-sport, FIA affiliation they want to assure themselves only the actual best of the best will be involved in these races.

What better way than to make staying within the top classes harder than the lower classes. I still say those that skills are deserving of being in the upper classes have the race craft to remain there.

I know at my lowly DR B, SR S level I race everyone the same and exploiting a penalty system or even track limits has not in the past ever influenced how I race and will not start now.

I try to race everyone the same from the top ranks to low ranks. I am also very comfortable with where the game has me ranked and have no false aspirations of being a SS racer.

 

[J91patriz]

Thanks, good summary.

In the main themes I would add Track limits.

You can’t get penalised for making an error and putting the wheels off track or hitting a wall, as someone reported.

At the moment you lose time for your mistake and also get a penalty.

 

[dabz343]

During the Salem witch trials, if you were suspected of witchcraft, you must have been a witch. That' what it seems is happening here. If we complain about contact, we MUST be bad drivers initiating contact.

I've read every post you wrote, so let me state clearly that I value and agree with you in many ways. But on certain occasions, the method you choose to express your observations sometimes reads as emotional rants. We are all trying to improve an evolving system that is inclusive and at this juncture, feedback that is constructive will make the most impact.

I've said this before in another thread, sportsmanship governing how to behave in a forum is not as straightforward as track limitations, but perhaps there is an opportunity for you to take a better line.

 

[Voodoovaj]

I've read every post you wrote, so let me state clearly that I value and agree with you in many ways. But on certain occasions, the method you choose to express your observations sometimes reads as emotional rants. We are all trying to improve an evolving system that is inclusive and at this juncture, feedback that is constructive will make the most impact.

I've said this before in another thread, sportsmanship governing how to behave in a forum is not as straightforward as track limitations, and perhaps there is an opportunity for you to take a better line.

I'm Italian and prone to emotional rants

I just did Race B. I started 13th, again, and finished 5th in a pretty deep room of A and S drivers. Clean race bonus and all.

Now, some would be jumping for joy, but I see a hollow victory because I didn't race anyone (ok, 2 passes on the final straight) to earn my achievement. It was handed to me just because I was a good little boy.

 

[kilesa4568]

Most of the penalties I see come from contact in turns, but as someone earlier said, the SR system has no concept of attackers and defenders. The penalty system will always fail without having this knowledge. There are many difficult situations for the SR system to parse, but it should be easy to know if a trailing car has a right to go side-to-side with the leading car going into a turn, because this is merely a question of positioning. So if it detects the trailing car does not have a right to stick their nose in and should be backing off, any contact in that turn should automatically result in a penalty for the attacker only. This seems like low-hanging fruit to me and would solve many penalty situations.

It's too difficult to discern as slightly missing an apex, people making contact with each other or even some numpty serving a penalty in a daft place will vary the corner's line for others. Too many other variables to look for to work out what's happening.

The only sane answer is getting rid of the penalty for the person in front and self policing what you try to attempt. We're talking top ranks who usually behave themselves against each other and with their group being so small, they've probably built up a lot of trust with the regulars now.

 

[dabz343]

I'm Italian and prone to emotional rants

I just did Race B. I started 13th, again, and finished 5th in a pretty deep room of A and S drivers. Clean race bonus and all.

Now, some would be jumping for joy, but I see a hollow victory because I didn't race anyone (ok, 2 passes on the final straight) to earn my achievement. It was handed to me just because I was a good little boy.

Funny, my Italian mechanic is the most humble and introspective genius 👍

Sounds like you could raise your pace and experiment with those gaps that you used to exploit? Go racing and if things turn sour, as many have mentioned prior, your natural skills will certainly bring your status back over time. IMO, ratings are not to be hoarded, especially during a transitional phase. Play the game, experiment with it, enjoy it...you just may find that elusive 0.3-0.5 seconds that you've been struggling to gain.

 

[rex1825]

I just wonder why did I get like every 20-25 seconds 2sec penalty while under SR-S? I did drive normally as I always drive, and when I dropped to A, with same drive stile nothing? WTF?

 

[Krypton78]

As I wrote before, yesterday I made 5 or 6 races and today in the new Blue Moon track I made 4 Races (3+1 on my sub-account).

Everybody tries to be more carefull.

There is still many Overtaking.

Yes, its really bad that some try to lose time penaltys middle in the track. In this I fully agree, this is the major bad point

The racing works, if you know when to back off. You must not close in the apex, just leave room for the other

Touching the walls in Blue Moon is no penalty.

I rammed the guy in front because the guy behind ramed me, I did not get penalty

5 sek penaltys don't grow

After all I gained 2000 DR I think. You have just to be careful and have to back off when you know it does make no sense. when you lose some spots, then you lose some spots.

No, I'm not payed by PD