Just Raced Under The New Algorithms and Rules

[kilesa4568]

I'd hate to be PD right now as for the life of me, I can't see a way they can fix this without there being some way of gaming the system (again) for one rank or another. They either need quadruple the DRS and A's (at least) to fill their grids for mutually exclusive races or every rank of driver to have a crisis of conscience and start driving like angels overnight. I think they've got more chance of a lottery win.

I'm kinda glad I'm going to spend the next few weeks (or months...) offline to practice with the wheel I'm getting tomorrow. Fingers are crossed that it's better (for everyone) when I'm ready to compete again.

 

[Seb Weasel]

I hope you appreciate the fact that I left the footage of everybody zooming by . I was gutted man...

Haha! Sorry. Yes that perfectly sums it up

Thing is though, even if they increase DR, SR is only 99 points! An EVIL (hehe) dirty driver could easily get that from a few Daily Cs if that's his goal... I'm worried about yoyo SR, much faster than going from D to S DR.

PS: enjoy the new wheel! What did you get?

I'd hate to be PD right now as for the life of me, I can't see a way they can fix this without there being some way of gaming the system (again) for one rank or another. They either need quadruple the DRS and A's (at least) to fill their grids for mutually exclusive races or every rank of driver to have a crisis of conscience and start driving like angels overnight. I think they've got more chance of a lottery win.

I'm kinda glad I'm going to spend the next few weeks (or months...) offline to practice with the wheel I'm getting tomorrow. Fingers are crossed that it's better (for everyone) when I'm ready to compete again.

 

[JacksHerer]

If I could bring myself to watch it again without needing to spend an hour on BF4 afterwards, I would upload my replay from nurb24hr.

 

[Seb Weasel]

Haha. I think that's why Sony is giving us Bloodborne this week. So we can blow off steam and don't SNAP completely.

If I could bring myself to watch it again without needing to spend an hour on BF4 afterwards, I would upload my replay from nurb24hr.

 

[kilesa4568]

Thing is though, even if they increase DR, SR is only 99 points! An EVIL (hehe) dirty driver could easily get that from a few Daily Cs if that's his goal... I'm worried about yoyo SR, much faster than going from D to S DR.

The suggestions were tongue in cheek as they both seem unattainable.

I could reel off dozens of reasons why something wouldn't work and no suggestions for what would. Making a racing game that caters to everyone is hard!

At least there's the sanity saving lobby races with friends to fall back on... Sod the rankings.

@Seb Weasel A G29. I'll be sat outside PCWorld tomorrow morning waiting for the manager to turn up and open it.

 

[bad_brain_1]

.

 

[Seb Weasel]

Haha, sorry, I get it now.
You're right, we can wait with lobby races. Let's give it time I guess, but man it's a tough world out there right now.

Probably another topic but I've heard many good things about the G29, let us know what you think!

The suggestions were tongue in cheek as they both seem unattainable.

I could reel off dozens of reasons why something wouldn't work and no suggestions for what would. Making a racing game that caters to everyone is hard!

At least there's the sanity saving lobby races with friends to fall back on... Sod the rankings.

@Seb Weasel A G29. I'll be sat outside PCWorld tomorrow morning waiting for the manager to turn up and open it.

Dude, how many accounts do you have? Haha. Didn't know you were there!
Yeah I should have stopped, I don't know why I didn't. I think I did 5 or 6 races, I just couldn't believe it and figured "ok next one will be clean", but nope... Maybe it's the track too, hard to get right and super narrow.

Heh, I lasted 1 race there - that was my final big moaning I quit post. So I applaud your perseverance!

@kilesa4568 You know, thanks for the idea! I've been slumming with DS4 lately, and I bet my G29/playseat are feeling abandoned. Might be a good chance to practice with those again, even if it is just doing quals. That's the thing this game has (like Bloodborne!) - you are still able to work on improving skills regardless of the mode you engage.

 

[kilesa4568]

Probably another topic but I've heard many good things about the G29, let us know what you think!

I will but don't expect much as I'm a complete novice with one. The only thing I'd get right is saying it's got 3 floppy rests for my feet and an almost round wheel. Oh, and a 6 speed shifter the LM55 moans about.

I did see a review done by Z28 (I think he's in the top 24 driver races?) on youtube and he was impressed with it for the money. (£200)

 

[bad_brain_1]

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[kevlar_hybrid]

And sometimes I make it all the way to T1 Lap 1 before I get, oh, no never mind. I'm the green/silver M6 ahead of this blue pos.



2 second penalty to me and -SR. I lose track position, no penalty for the blue car.
Starting to see a trend anyone?

I think you got the youtube links wrong

@Seb Weasel you linked to your edit

@Seb Weasel Oh I feel you man, number 3 is just the perfect summing up. Stupid penalty system causing stupid stopping on track which penalises the cleanest driver out there trying his best to avoid all the coded in stupidity. ARE WE HAVING FUN YET!?

 

[mikeonthebike]

Im curious to know what assists the S/S and A/S drivers getting penalties from rear hits are running.

The reason I'm curious is I'm running no assists with abs off sometimes and a rear hit has me doing a perfectly timed wheel and pedal dance to save control IF I can save it.

Im wondering if the game is taking assist level as a factor of whether you saved your car or the assist helped you save it. Should be in A/S soon, so I guess I will know soon enough.

 

[ShiftingGears]

They have two tiers of penalties because the FIA spotlight will only be on the S:S races in April, and PD don't want them seeing people crash others out of races without penalty. But to stop this they can't think of anything better to stop dirty driving than to punish all contact indiscriminately.

 

[TenderLoins]

Im curious to know what assists the S/S and A/S drivers getting penalties from rear hits are running.

The reason I'm curious is I'm running no assists with abs off sometimes and a rear hit has me doing a perfectly timed wheel and pedal dance to save control IF I can save it.

Im wondering if the game is taking assist level as a factor of whether you saved your car or the assist helped you save it. Should be in A/S soon, so I guess I will know soon enough.

ABS off in this game is broken. That might be your only problem.

As far as other assists go, I’m A/S and vary what assists I use all the time depending on track and car. GR4 usually just ABS on default but if I’m tired or not having a good day I’ll put on easy mode (CSA).

GR3 is always ABS default. TCS 0-2 car/track dependent.

In my favorite car (Ferrari 458 GR3) I use ABS default and CSA usually without TCS. On a DS4 I can put down almost exactly the same times with only ABS but in a race with tire wear, CSA keeps me from facing the wrong way too much.

ASM never gets used.

 

[kevlar_hybrid]

Assists are broken like crazy.

 

[TenderLoins]

Assists are broken like crazy.

No, ABS off is broken. The others work fine but TCS in combination with some of the horrible stock LSD settings are a real problem.

 

[kevlar_hybrid]

No, ABS is broken. The others work fine but TCS in combination with some of the horrible stock LSD settings are the problem.

Disagree. I think TC is broken or at least makes no sense as I see it. The risk reward ramp is non existent.
I think good driving without TC should be the quickest, then ramp off speed ability and into safety the further up the TC rank you go. Not the case at present. You can do just a quick lap with TC 2 and good throttle modulation as you can with it off. So you have OFF with the back up of no spin.
Anything above 3 is a joke / waste of time.

Everyone runs ABS weak, off is impossible (should be quicker for good drivers maybe? Strong is a joke)

The other aids, CSA and the four wheel thing are abused to high hell by control pad drivers to create a unique weird twitch physics engine that is unaccessible to wheel owners (not quick enough lock to lock) and can sometimes be quicker whilst being unbelievably unrealistic and disgusting to witness at the same time.

 

[Greycap]

It makes no difference if the driver you are trying to overtake is a DR D and you are a DR S and you may be capable of lapping on a clean track 7 seconds a lap quicker as long as he is not illegally blocking it is your responsibility to cleanly pass him.

That does not mean that the slower driver cannot legally use defensive driving lines forcing the overtaking driver to pass on a less than optimum line and no it is not the responsibility for the slower driver to move off of the racing line to let such driver go pass, this is a race not a track day.

The problem isn't having to take a less than optimum line, it's having to deal with the entire imaginable selection of ways to prevent passing. Swerving like crazy? Check. Simply turning into my front fender when I'm passing on a straight? Check. Brake checking me out of a corner when getting a poor exit? Well check. Pushing me out of the road into a spin during corner exit when I'm already slightly ahead? Check. I've seen all those this week, DR A and B. And none of them would be tolerated in real racing.

There's very little to do against all that other than waiting for the other driver to make a mistake and if they don't, the pass is nearly impossible to pull off because dirty tricks can and will be used because the one behind is the one to get the penalties in case of a contact. It only gets more frustrating when the situation is preceded by a dive bomb pass that can't be properly defended because it would mean being stuck in the sandbox while the offender remains on the track with a penalty that takes far less time to brush away than getting up to speed again.

 

[TenderLoins]

Disagree. I think TC is broken or at least makes no sense as I see it. The risk reward ramp is non existent.
I think good driving without TC should be the quickest, then ramp off speed ability and into safety the further up the TC rank you go. Not the case at present. You can do just a quick lap with TC 2 and good throttle modulation as you can with it off. So you have OFF with the back up of no spin.
Anything above 3 is a joke / waste of time.

You’re probably right as I’m pretty new to racing games. The last one I owned was GT on PS2.

Everyone runs ABS weak, off is impossible (should be quicker for good drivers maybe? Strong is a joke.

From what I’ve heard and read most use ABS default.

The other aids, CSA and the four wheel thing are abused to high hell by control pad drivers to create a unique weird twitch physics engine that is unaccessible to wheel owners (not quick enough lock to lock) and can sometimes be quicker whilst being unbelievably unrealistic and disgusting to witness at the same time.

CSA discussion has been beat to death so I’ll just leave it alone.

 

[gorlt]

I've dropped from SR S to D in a single race, no spinouts, no bashing, but just from tapping the driver in front or the driver behind tapping me. Unreal.

 

[cleanLX]

Again, still... at this point, refusing to partake in the circus.
I've read all the current posts on a couple different threads, and watched all the current videos on same threads.
Some of the videos are encouraging... some... errr a few...
Most are purely enraging.
Having watched videos from the guys in Dr.S... and the guys on their sub accounts at much lower Dr. ... it's plain inexcusable.

I was one of the first to hold the DR.S/A guys to a higher standard... but having watched all the videos, it's a farce.
The penalties a the low end of Dr. are virtually non-existent...
The penalties at Dr.S... viewing from a pass attempt... that I have seen... well, to be honest, a great deal are correct in being a penalty...

Having said all that... the majority of the time it is still the innocent player that is penalized.
And, that is the shame of it all.

I've got a bunch more to say about the programming an logic of the penalty system... and knowing how the AI drive/react, and how the penalties are currently being distributed... I have a really difficult time believing that PD cannot program a more knowledgeable/aware/accurate system.

 

[_ApexPredator]

You can do just a quick lap with TC 2 and good throttle modulation as you can with it off

Isn't that because with good throttle modulation you haven't caused the TC to kick in, so of course it would be the same as it would be with it off

 

[Macboyilija]

Having said all that... the majority of the time it is still the innocent player that is penalized. And, that is the shame of it all.

You mostly read it here when people complain. When somebody is happy you will not see him posting here as much as someone that is not happy. It just always works like that, like bad reviews on the internet. You are likely to react way sooner when you complain and look for mental compensation. So I can assure you, majority of the time it is not the innocent player that is penalized.

After all they were faster, they were higher ranked and they as a result felt entitled to not need to wait for a proper passing opportunity as it was no actual penalty in the race results for not waiting.

This is sooo annoying indeed.

After many races today, I confirm that sportsmanship was some of the worst I've seen. Ever. Each time, I could see the "murderers" starting from SR S and get demoted, sometimes straight to C!!

And thats exactly how it should have always been. But PD was clearly experimenting. Which is a good thing.
Just mixing things up, which can make it work in the end.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

The problem isn't having to take a less than optimum line, it's having to deal with the entire imaginable selection of ways to prevent passing. Swerving like crazy? Check. Simply turning into my front fender when I'm passing on a straight? Check. Brake checking me out of a corner when getting a poor exit? Well check. Pushing me out of the road into a spin during corner exit when I'm already slightly ahead? Check. I've seen all those this week, DR A and B. And none of them would be tolerated in real racing.

as long as he is not illegally blocking

I think I adequately covered that in the original post you were quoting with the statement above.

Lessening penalties and going back to allowing racers to game the system by using bulldozer style tactics to advance position without harsh enough penalties to remove that behavior to be a tactic to gain an advantage surely is not the answer.

Illegal blocking is another wrong used by racers across all rankings and yes those tactics should be addressed as well.

I am hoping that the intent of PD is to purge the upper rankings both SR and DR of dirty overly aggressive drivers and make adjustments in the higher rankings as to make those rankings be harder to obtain and remain within. Then if you want to pass with contact there will be a place for you, if you understand it may take multiple laps to possibly overtake and gain 1 position without contacting the other car then there will be a place for you to race as well.

First you have to purge the ranks that you want to be non contact ranks of those that the game has allowed to race in those ranks since game launch.

This is what I am hoping that PD has the intent of accomplishing anyway.

 

[Krypton78]

Guys, just keep bashing.

Yes, its not perfect of course. And PD fails by detecting the one whos fault an accident is, so they penalty both. But in long term it will make more respectfull driving, because there is no other way around anymore. Was it really so much better before?

I dont know which game you play, but I gained some thousend DR since patch, made about 10 races I think. If someone is interested, here in Kudos

http://www.kudosprime.com/gts/stats.php?profile=2406831

Even today on Mount Panorama, I had main account and second account at least 5 Races. Only few times I got 2-sec penaltys, and it was no problem to get rid of them. My second account was high B, and I played with it after a long time today and made it DR A, without problems having Chaos races or something like that.

You just have to keep yourself away from agressors and keep enough distance to the car in front of you, until you get a real opportunity to overtake

 

[cleanLX]

You mostly read it here when people complain. When somebody is happy you will not see him posting here as much as someone that is not happy. It just always works like that, like bad reviews on the internet. You are likely to react way sooner when you complain and look for mental compensation.

Fair enough.

So I can assure you, majority of the time it is not the innocent player that is penalized.

k... well, too many adult beverages watching NASCAR this afternoon (incidentally, no bump drafting today, and no contact except for wrecking cars, so, no "rubbing is racing") so maybe tomorrow after work...
Really appreciate your reassurances.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

I survived the ring yesterday, yet Monza proves to be too much again for the system, especially with the Vulcan. I'm currently down to 56 SR, started at 99. Spread over many races and it always comes down to T1.

As DR.A when I get hit in T1 it's an automatic red rating, -7 at least, sometimes upto a 9 sec penalty as well for getting punted into a short cut. While a fully clean race is only worth 5 points at most. Add another punt in the second chicane and the SR loss is in the double digits.

 

[Outspacer]

Sorry, bad phrase (bug/side effect). What I mean is that in ELO type systems, one of the unintended effects can be that higher ranked players can become protective of the rank/points they have been allocated, and may be adverse to entering contests in which there is a likelihood of having lower ranked competitors. Because of how points are pooled and allocated based on final rank/position. One way around this is to award points for participation, to entice the higher ranked players to play/not drop out/etc.

Unfortunately, GTS does not have AFAIK a system for rewarding participation in the form of points/ranks - you do a qualifying time, enter a race, and the matchmaking does its thing based primarily on SR. Any number of posts here complaining about that, as what you don't want is to be the only S/S or A/S in a lobby, even moreso if most of the other players are D. It is boring as hell, and the risks for something going wrong higher than the rewards.

Same if you find yourself in a lobby with higher ranked players, with what happens with D/S ranks. Can be boring as hell, however, the potential rewards far outweigh the risks!

See, what gets my goat is when we focus on the gameplay aspects, and try to pretend that the rankings/points don't matter. They do, because that is how each racing interaction is set up. I don't mean we should focus on the ranks/points as if they tell us much about the individual players, but rather when there appears to be a problem with how the ranks/points are setting up unsatisfying contests.

Er, not sure if that is expressing what I want sorry, need more coffee. I'm trying to make a subtle distinction between a focus on ranks/points for their own sake, and a focus on ranks/points when they seem to constrain the kinds of contests most players would like to have. How does that sound?

EDIT Just a thought that might be relevant. You know when you enter a lobby, and then when you get to the pre-race practice, and you see so-and-so has left the race? It probably is not a lag-quit. It may well be a player seeing the grid order in the first part of the matchmaking, then quitting then. No penalty will accrue. I am not sure if the game includes their DR points in the pool however. If it does, great! If it does not, means less DR points in the kitty for those actually competing.

Bug / side-effect... maybe drawback is a better term? I knew what you meant anyway

My point was that assuming the rating system is working reasonably well, someone with 40000 points more than another will 99.99% of the time beat them, easily. For a low S vs a high B, the difference in DR could be not much more than 20000, so maybe only 120 points would be lost to the B (vs 40 gained if winning). Even 160 is really small beans to a player with >50000 points, far to small to be worth being dirty over. (The S would probably still be gaining points from other As and Bs in a typical race).

Anyway, one idea... the DR difference used for scoring is capped at 40000 points, meaning no driver ever loses points for winning, and also caps how much someone can lose to another player to 160 points. Technically, there's no reason that limit couldn't be lower, so a winner always comes out with some points from each player.

The matchmaking is poor for an S, but rarely so bad they can never gain any points from the race as a whole. I think the worst I've seen was an S winning and taking just 1 point each from about half the field, but still a few more points off the rest. I'm honestly not sure that giving them more points (which is the by-product of limiting their losses) is a good idea. For an S to beat a C is the expected outcome 99.99% of the time, so why should it score them points? Seems like a bad idea to let the elite farm points off the masses like that.

If the numbers playing are too low for decent matchmaking, I don't think changing the scoring is going to help... that probably isn't the reason they aren't playing. Besides, if they are at the max of 75000, there is only downside regardless.

Rank certainly matters for the racing, not as a badge, just as a way of knowing at a glance how you sit in a starting grid. I tend to quali amongst the other As, but if I'm lower I know I haven't done well enough in quali - I also know that good consistency in the race might gain me a place or two. Or if there's a B in amongst the As that could be someone who just happened to do a blinding quali lap without knowing how, or it could be someone who will end being rated as an A - if the former, might be quite likely to push too hard or crack under pressure. Being able to look at people's DR like that and know those things is why I say the DR system is working pretty well

 

[Outspacer]

I can understand where a racer whom the rankings are more important may be concerned over losing points, but regardless once on the track how many points you may gain or lose does not lessen the responsibility that everyone on that track is entitled to the space they occupy period.

Points or no points, DR or SR ranking of no importance it is still up to the overtaking driver to cleanly pass the driver in front of them.

It makes no difference if the driver you are trying to overtake is a DR D and you are a DR S and you may be capable of lapping on a clean track 7 seconds a lap quicker as long as he is not illegally blocking it is your responsibility to cleanly pass him.

That does not mean that the slower driver cannot legally use defensive driving lines forcing the overtaking driver to pass on a less than optimum line and no it is not the responsibility for the slower driver to move off of the racing line to let such driver go pass, this is a race not a track day.

He is still entitled to his racing line on the track.

Agreed.

Before this latest penalty update it was not uncommon for a faster driver to spin, fall to the rear and bulldoze their way back towards the front scrubbing penalties with no loss along the way.

After all they were faster, they were higher ranked and they as a result felt entitled to not need to wait for a proper passing opportunity as it was no actual penalty in the race results for not waiting.

Now it is a penalty, now the bulldozing cost lost time and positions and yes all passes or moves now could come at a greater cost if not well set up.

And you wonder why those that drive a more passive style of race like the new system? Finally clean and consistent driving across a race distance may be rewarded where in the past the only style of racing that was rewarded was hot lapping basically.

Now if the would turn on crash damage and have bouncing over curbings damaging suspensions and tires, off track damaging bodies and splitters and over revving engines causing blown power plants then we are racing with more real world consequences.

Think you have to watch how you drive now, that brings the racing to an actual "sim" level experience. What we have had up until now is a game where only hot lapping was rewarded. That is not real world racing.

Perhaps PD should institute the stiffer penalties across the board and actually reward clean contact free racing across the board from top to bottom. I would be okay with that but I like the new system that makes bulldozer through style of racing to be a position loser rather than a position gainer proposition.

Now, if this has changed racing how you describe it, in the same situation that faster driver doesn't even need to bulldoze to get back into position because everyone in his way is so worried about getting a 2 sec penalty that they just get out of his way.

I drive a more passive style of race. I've been quite well rewarded for it up 'til now. Still am, apart from the downside of being hit now being daft 2 sec penalties. I'm clean enough to well withstand some more -SR, and know that a bulldozer would get more -SR than me, and then I wouldn't see them in races 'til they cleaned their act up.

Overall, this current system of 'everybody gets a penalty!' just has way to much impact on the innocent for it to be worth it.

 

[BSDShoes]

2 second penalty to me and -SR. I lose track position, no penalty for the blue car.
Starting to see a trend anyone?

I just wrote a post about the exact same thing happening to me.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Overall, this current system of 'everybody gets a penalty!' just has way to much impact on the innocent for it to be worth it.

As I have said my experience is at the level of DR B so I cannot comment on the penalty difference for A and S rankings.

In the races I have run since the update I have not changed my racing style at all and for me it has been positive as fewer dive bombs or being punted and I have always tried to set up my passes to be non contact to the best of my ability.

Hopefully the stiffer penalties are currently being used to purge the upper SR rankings of driving styles that have gamed the system and created the excessive contact racing that had become the norm across the board.

After the purge if they change the criteria to what constitutes admittance and retaining membership in the higher SR ranks then the current inconvenience caused by these changes will be a worthwhile investment for all.

Once the ranks are secured then the penalties can be eased to an extent but the criteria still tightened up enough that only very occasional contact would result in not losing the higher SR ranking and regaining SR points would be much harder than losing them to prevent gaming for position of the new system by being choosy in when to initiate contact which was easily accomplished under the old system.

Actually that could be one way to help regulate contact for gain as any gain of position being a result of contact as part of the overtake would automatically result in a penalty.

I do not care what classes I race with as long as the racing is not of a nascar rubbing is racing mentality.

Incidental contact happens at times in motorsports but the Sport races had become ridiculous with the bulldozing, punting and ramming to gain position and with no actual penalty in the standings to those causing the havoc.

Just hoping for good racing, we had pretty decent racing around game launch but it was steady turning into GTA rather than competitive motorsport road racing over the last month and a half.