Just Raced Under The New Algorithms and Rules

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This had not occurred to me with sportmode matchmaking - the binning of DR in addition to SR to ensure tiered grids. I had been thinking it was simply the result of trying to optimize the mix on the basis of the number of live participants. On the basis of the daily numbers of qualifying times posted in the Asia Pacific region, I'm not sure I agree with you on the numbers. They are pretty low after all. How many DR S, or for that matter DR A, for a given Daily race do you think are concurrently available for entry?

(Enjoyed the post btw)

Even if there aren’t enough S/S or A/S drivers to fill a grid in daily races, would a grid of 8-12 be so bad? Do we really need a full grid every race? Most of the dailies that are mixed from S/S - D/S half of the grid doesn’t even get to cross the finish line.

Yes, as @TenderLoins points out, it's doesn't need to be so strict that only A's are together and only S's are together. Mixing S and A isn't so bad, but it's the span of classes where 1 room has S, A, B, C, in one room (D was an exaggeration on my part). I've seen this during low volume times and that seems really strange to me. S& A together, fine. A & B is fine. etc. At least make it attainable to get to the front.

Currently nominating @Voodoovaj for manager level employment with PD.

Thanks for the nomination, but I would rather eat my own eyeballs than go back into the game industry :crazy:.

EU region might have ~10,000 setting quali times for each race. But that doesn't say much, since I don't think we know how many of them actually enter a race (I've often used it just to get my daily marathon, when I don't have time or inclination for racing). Even if half of them do, they are spread across multiple time zones / different preferred playing times etc, so you could be down to a lot less than 1,000 at times. Then only a small percent are DR A or S... it's not great for them.

My number is a rounded off amount, but you can fire up GT6 and see the current active race number for each daily event for comparison.

Sure they could get more money from the franchise and more active players online, but in my mind, it would be to the detriment of the spirit of what PD are aiming to achieve

If they're aiming to achieve fewer and fewer people participating in the core feature of the game, then they are succeeding. That seems counter to what I would try to achieve with my core feature.
 
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I want your opinion on this guys
Now before anyone say it , yes i admit i was more dearing than i usually am but i recognized my mistake & gave the position back.


Not sure what you want an opinion on?
Was his re-entry dangerous? Yes. Could you easily have avoided it? Yes. Were you at fault for pushing him off track coming down the hill? Yes. Not sure what that has to do with lap 3 though.
 
Not sure what you want an opinion on?
Was his re-entry dangerous? Yes. Could you easily have avoided it? Yes. Were you at fault for pushing him off track coming down the hill? Yes. Not sure what that has to do with lap 3 though.
First of all i didn't push him of track Second off all i use Hood/roof cam when im driving , & my point is he rejoined the track this way in order to get revenge with one big difference what i did didn't make him lose 3 positions.
 
If they want to promote cleaner racing, why not... I don't know, maybe add a rear view mirror for chase and hood cameras?!

Supposedly Kaz said they chose to not include it in the game because then the view is too easy? That's an opinion.

Obviously it's his game so he is allowed to have what ever opinion he wants, but it's a silly reason to not include it in the game.

What if Kaz thinks the Gr1 Porsche is too easy to drive? Does that justify its exclusion from the next GT or perhaps a removal from GTS?
 
So you are about labeling people into one camp or another. I see what you are doing, good luck with that. 👍

Paint it like that if you like, I was just using that to summarise how the most divisive part of this thread has gone. Your replies say to me that you don't have as much interest in impartiality as you claim.
 
First of all i didn't push him of track Second off all i use Hood/roof cam when im driving , & my point is he rejoined the track this way in order to get revenge with one big difference what i did didn't make him lose 3 positions.

That is a hard section of track to take 2 wide, but it's doable - and you did it all wrong. Not sure what camera mode has to do with.
He moved over onto the curbing, and went from outside to middle to outside, you hugged the inside, which is impossible to do at that speed and you inevitably drifted past the middle of the track and bumped him off.

You needed to start from the middle of the track and cut into the corner.

So yes, you were responsible for bumping him off, but seeing as he didn't go off track it hardly really mattered.

As for the last point - yes it was a dangerous re-entry, but you saw him coming from a mile away, just slow down and go around him after he comes back. I expect you are around DR. C or B so this type of track re-entry is common.

Also I highly doubt he was rejoining track purposely to hit you, he was just trying to rejoin as quickly as possible on the last lap.
 
This is a long one, sorry, but I had to get it out. Sometimes, the old game designer in me has to have his say (it actually the only reason I come to the forum :D)



I'd like to address your points, if I may.

1 - Early on, almost any rear end collision resulted in the culprit getting 10 second penalty. One of the first updates reduced that tendency, presumably because it was being abused by people brake checking others. As I've said, and we all know to be true, the game knows when you are slowing down in a location where you should not be. It is, in fact, how penalties are scrubbed. I recommend returning to the old method and penalizing rear end collisions, maybe not 10 seconds, but at least with the sensitivity of old. If a player has a rear end collision while braking in a non-braking zone, the penalty should be shared.

2 & 3 - The penalty severity should be inverted and consistent across a broader range. This forces lower ranks to learn that contact is not acceptable, where as now, contact is the way to achieve a higher rank where you THEN learn that it's not acceptable at the cost of others.



I address this below.



This idea of "scrubbing off penalties" was misguided from the beginning. You should carry your penalties until the end just like real racing. In real racing, the marshals assess penalties after the fact. It's great to know what penalty you have, but scrubbing off is bad.

That said, the system created to allow scrubbing off penalties should be employed to determine blame. The system knows where drivers should be braking, and when they should be accelerating, and by how much. That can be used to put a player in a game state of "fault" and if a collision occurs while a player is in a fault state, give them a penalty. It won't be perfect, but it should be better.



This ship has sailed. They could put this system in place in GT League, but with little to play for in GT League, it will just reduce participation in that feature (if there is any to speak of). I feel strongly that an inverse ramp of penalty severity will be the only way to help this.



There needs to be a four pronged attack here. If I were hired to fix this problem, this is exactly what I would suggest. (full disclosure, I actually used to do this for a living. I would review pre-release games and give recommendations. I was also the lead designer on several versions of Battlefield..you might have heard of it ;)..there, now y'all know the truth..you can actually google my GTPlanet name and find old interviews if you think I'm making this up)

1 - Better game design - The emotional reward is not enough. There needs to be an increased tangible reward. In the FIA races, there's a top 24 where you get 3X points, etc. In GT6, there is a reward multiplier for daily login. Add a multiplier for race participation (max 3X or 5X per day) and point out to the player the extra bonus they are getting for improving their position. Players need to have a play space where there isn't only 1 winner. If a player can use Sport Mode in the same way they currently use GT League (to gain XP and credits) then, there will be more desire to participate. I would even go so far as tying the bonus to clean racing, but the clean race bonus needs to be less stringent. I have had clean races, no contact, no off tracks, etc, and still not received a bonus. It should be a simple check of penalty or no penalty.

2 - Tuning - For 20 years, GT has been about tuning. Tuning, from a game design perspective, creates a sense of ownership to a car. You could say that tuning makes the play field uneven, but it also makes the play field more realistic and equally uneven. It creates a sense of community and it connects the lobbies to sport mode even more.

3 - Better matchmaking. In the GT6 dailies, it states that there are often nearly 10,000 races in any one race at any one time. I find it EXTREMELY difficult to believe that there isn't enough players of one class to allow them to all be in the same room. Also, you can see a distinct attempt to create a replica of single player with hot-shoes up front, mid-pack drivers, and back markers. That may be fine when trying to create the illusion of participation, but in the real world, there needs to be an even skill base in each race. I believe the matchmaking is intentionally mismatched, and that needs to stop.

4 - More sport mode for the masses - In GT6, there are several races for road cars. The GTS approach is just too limiting. Sport Mode should be more like GT League with daily events that are more inclusive of the N class cars. Race A, Race B, Race C should really be Daily beginner, Daily intermediate, and Daily Advanced with three races per tier. Beginner is N100-N300. Intermediate is N400-N700 and Gr4. Advance is N700+, GR 3, and GR1. Race length increases with 3-4 laps on beginner, tire wear and fuel use at 1X. Intermediate has laps of 5-8 with tire wear and fuel use at 4X, basically not enough to require stops. Advanced has 10-15 lap races with tire wear and fuel use requiring pit strategy, including tire choice at race start. As a side note, BoP should restore a car to it's natural N level to maintain diversity (or we'll get everyone in a Porsche, all the time).

Then again, what do I know :dunce::dunce::dunce:

btw, my afternoon appointment was cancelled so I had some time to kill...sorry for the novella.
Regarding points 3 and 4, I presume you're referring to Quick Match when you mention GT6 (please correct me if I'm wrong in this assumption:)).

Point 3: In GT6 the races is not how many are on at any one time, it's the total amount of races that have been held in that track/car combination. The amount of people racing is signified by the amount of highlighted bust silhouettes. With that in mind, you may need to adjust your thinking of how large the player base is at any one given time.

Point 4: There is normally only two of the four events in road cars and although the races are all short, it's very similar to the GTS approach. Below is an example of what is currently available (none are Garage cars and none can be tuned). I also think your over assumption of player base in point 3 could greatly affect the amount of races that can be held at any one time.
20180306_055858.jpg


Just to add, I totally agree with you about point 2. I have done many, many QM's over the years and in my experience, the tuned garage cars have been by far the most popular, both for road and race cars.
 
Regarding points 3 and 4, I presume you're referring to Quick Match when you mention GT6 (please correct me if I'm wrong in this assumption:)).

Point 3: In GT6 the races is not how many are on at any one time, it's the total amount of races that have been held in that track/car combination. The amount of people racing is signified by the amount of highlighted bust silhouettes. With that in mind, you may need to adjust your thinking of how large the player base is at any one given time.

Fair point, my mistake, but it takes a lot of people to pile up 20,000 races in a day in only one event. According to Kudosprime, there's between 30,000 and 60,000 daily sport mode players, depending on the day.

Worst case scenario, 3 possible races and 30,000 players is an average of about 10,000 per event per day. I'm sure than in 10,000 people, you don't need to mix Dr A and Dr D drivers.
 
Fair point, my mistake, but it takes a lot of people to pile up 20,000 races in a day in only one event. According to Kudosprime, there's between 30,000 and 60,000 daily sport mode players, depending on the day.

Worst case scenario, 3 possible races and 30,000 is an average of about 10,000 per event per day. I'm sure than in 10,000 people, you don't need to mix Dr A and Dr D drivers.

It's not just DR though, it's DR and SR.
Just an example, a couple months ago I raced the last FIA race of the night, a manufacturer race (this was before the time changes to be earlier in the day) so I'm pretty sure it was the 11pm EST (maybe 10pm), and 20 racers, I was the only DR. A - then there were like 2-3 DR.B and the rest were ALL DR. D.

Literally 3 people finished the race (this was before pitting and tire wear), the rest didn't cross the line before the timer ended.
 
Fair point, my mistake, but it takes a lot of people to pile up 20,000 races in a day in only one event. According to Kudosprime, there's between 30,000 and 60,000 daily sport mode players, depending on the day.

Worst case scenario, 3 possible races and 30,000 is an average of about 10,000 per event per day. I'm sure than in 10,000 people, you don't need to mix Dr A and Dr D drivers.
In my region (Oceania) there's quite often only about 3,000 people qualifying for an event over a 24 hour period. I'm not sure how many are racing at any one given time, but I tend to see the same people over and over again.
 
It's not just DR though, it's DR and SR.
Just an example, a couple months ago I raced the last FIA race of the night, a manufacturer race (this was before the time changes to be earlier in the day) so I'm pretty sure it was the 11pm EST (maybe 10pm), and 20 racers, I was the only DR. A - then there were like 2-3 DR.B and the rest were ALL DR. D.

Literally 3 people finished the race (this was before pitting and tire wear), the rest didn't cross the line before the timer ended.


Well, as I put in the long post, I think there should be more bonus for clean races, which would definitely get more people into a better SR position. That said, I think a Dr-C/Sr-C player is a better matched for a Dr-C/Sr-S, rather than throwing that C/S guy into a room with DR-A's

In my region (Oceania) there's quite often only about 3,000 people qualifying for an event over a 24 hour period. I'm not sure how many are racing at any one given time, but I tend to see the same people over and over again.

Then open up the regions for regular sport mode races. I can race folks from all over the world without issue in the lobbies, and there are already people making second accounts to allow them to race in other regions. Just open it up.
 
That is a hard section of track to take 2 wide, but it's doable - and you did it all wrong. Not sure what camera mode has to do with.
He moved over onto the curbing, and went from outside to middle to outside, you hugged the inside, which is impossible to do at that speed and you inevitably drifted past the middle of the track and bumped him off.

You needed to start from the middle of the track and cut into the corner.

So yes, you were responsible for bumping him off, but seeing as he didn't go off track it hardly really mattered.

As for the last point - yes it was a dangerous re-entry, but you saw him coming from a mile away, just slow down and go around him after he comes back. I expect you are around DR. C or B so this type of track re-entry is common.

Also I highly doubt he was rejoining track purposely to hit you, he was just trying to rejoin as quickly as possible on the last lap.
The camera matters because if i used 3rd person i could have avoid him but i coulden't with hood cam
 
Worst case scenario, 3 possible races and 30,000 players is an average of about 10,000 per event per day. I'm sure than in 10,000 people, you don't need to mix Dr A and Dr D drivers.

you're forgetting the facts that the races are split into 3 server regions and over a 24 hr period and on average about 3 races per hour. So at any given time:

10,000 players / race/day => 3400/region => 150players/ hour=> 50 players/race slot

Now obviously im not considering the fact that there are times where the traffic picks up and slows down, nor am i considdering the fact that many people play more than 1 race/ day. However, you can see though how drastically that 10,000 is reduced when we talk about how many are actually on at any given moment.

The camera matters because if i used 3rd person i could have avoid him but i coulden't with hood cam

Well, you already know that you could have tried to avoid him, but i would argue that he should have gone wider through that corner to avoid you. you were side by side through the corner and he tried to take the apex like you weren't there. That guy caused his own misery there imo
 
Then open up the regions for regular sport mode races. I can race folks from all over the world without issue in the lobbies, and there are already people making second accounts to allow them to race in other regions. Just open it up.
While I tend to agree with this it also opens up a can of worms with lag which was a big issue in GT6 QMs. You might not have an issue but many do. I'll use AC as an example for me: Lobby created in Japan/USA = ping around 100. For one in UK it's more like 200, but for one in Greece or some Sth. American countries it's appalling (400-500 plus) and totally unpredictable. I'm in Australia by the way and have reasonable connection speed.

The only way I could see this working is if they also had set limits for ping in the matching process. I have no idea if it's possible but it could be a solution (???).
 
I know this has probably been discussed in the ~1000 posts on this thread, but in ONE RACE around suzuka east, my SR went from 76 down to 35!

I got 2 penalties in the race, but for lag taps where the person in front of my paused briefly because of their internet connections...

I then raced a CLEAN RACE on Mount Panorama(!!!) In gr.4 to get 1(!!!!!!) SR point?!? What the heck?
 
you're forgetting the facts that the races are split into 3 server regions and over a 24 hr period and on average about 3 races per hour. So at any given time:

10,000 players / race/day => 3400/region => 150players/ hour=> 50 players/race slot

Now obviously im not considering the fact that there are times where the traffic picks up and slows down, nor am i considering the fact that many people play more than 1 race/ day. However, you can see though how drastically that 10,000 is reduced when we talk about how many are actually on at any given moment.

Fair enough, but I still think opening up the regions would be one step that would help falling player counts and bolster matchmaking issue. I've also said before, that fewer people in a race is better than more disparity.

If I were DR D, I would rather be in a room with 10 other DR D's than in a room of 15-20 where I'm vastly outmatched.

While I tend to agree with this it also opens up a can of worms with lag which was a big issue in GT6 QMs. You might not have an issue but many do. I'll use AC as an example for me: Lobby created in Japan/USA = ping around 100. For one in UK it's more like 200, but for one in Greece or some Sth. American countries it's appalling (400-500 plus) and totally unpredictable. I'm in Australia by the way and have reasonable connection speed.

The only way I could see this working is if they also had set limits for ping in the matching process. I have no idea if it's possible but it could be a solution (???).

That happens within a region now. There's plenty of players with bad connections. You could still prioritize by region, but having more regions to pick from would help alleviate the matchmaking problems.

But I've pointed out that I am closer to Western Europe than South America (Chile and Argentina). Maybe Asia can draw from the West coast of North America.
 
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Fair enough, but I still think opening up the regions would be one step that would help falling player counts and bolster matchmaking issue. I've also said before, that fewer people in a race is better than more disparity.

If I were DR D, I would rather be in a room with 10 other DR D's than in a room of 15-20 where I'm vastly outmatched.

I agree, there is no reason for DR D to be with DR S, and I always wondered if the matching system takes your previous results into account.

If I have one or two races that i place high in then I can promise you my next race i will be grid filler for A and S racers. then after a race or two here i finish nearer the back then I get placed in a much slower grid. (this happens regardless of whether i gain or lose DR points)

This happens so frequently that it definitely is not just random matching. I think this is just PDs way of making sure everyone gets their chances to win or place high. But this may be the reason we see DR D and DR S in the same races
 
Fair enough, but I still think opening up the regions would be one step that would help falling player counts and bolster matchmaking issue. I've also said before, that fewer people in a race is better than more disparity.

If I were DR D, I would rather be in a room with 10 other DR D's than in a room of 15-20 where I'm vastly outmatched.

Is this looking like it's localised, or more of an issue for US and Canadian players? There seems to be more of you guys posting the same experiences and not as many Euro players?

I only say that because I'm in the UK, race between 7pm and 2am and rarely see more than 3 or 4 DR:Bs in my lobbies (usually). Mine are nearly always predominately DR:A with 2-4 DR:S. There's the odd exception but this is the norm for me.

Edit: I play mostly race B or C
 
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That happens within a region now. There's plenty of players with bad connections. You could still prioritize by region, but having more regions to pick from would help alleviate the matchmaking problems.

But I've pointed out that I am closer to Western Europe than South America (Chile and Argentina). Maybe Asia can draw from the West coast of North America.
I really have no idea how the server system works but wouldn't that defeat the purpose of having the servers as they are? We'd have to go back to peer to peer :(.

As @Mr616 mentions, I think this is more of an issue for the Americas and Oceania districts.
 
did some mt panorama races this weekend.

At first i thought penalty system wasnt that bad, but that went all wrong this weekend. i went from B/A down to to B/C, even from just 1 small tap. and the rest of the run was clean.
 
I agree, there is no reason for DR D to be with DR S, and I always wondered if the matching system takes your previous results into account.

If I have one or two races that i place high in then I can promise you my next race i will be grid filler for A and S racers. then after a race or two here i finish nearer the back then I get placed in a much slower grid. (this happens regardless of whether i gain or lose DR points)

This happens so frequently that it definitely is not just random matching. I think this is just PDs way of making sure everyone gets their chances to win or place high. But this may be the reason we see DR D and DR S in the same races

I've noticed that behaviour in matchmaking to. Although even with an "easier" grid, I can't remember the last DR:C I've seen. It's usually just how many DR:A to B ratio there is.
 
Say what you will about the new penalty system, sure hasn't stopped people from driving like they're playing GTA.

Watch my yellow porsche go from 4th to 15th in one turn :). Man, I sure do love playing this game.


Edit: this is a lobby of all Dr B/Dr A and Sr S.
 
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Say what you will about the new penalty system, sure hasn't stopped people from driving like they're playing GTA.

Watch my yellow porsche go from 4th to 15th in one turn :). Man, I sure do love playing this game.


You didn't get a penalty though! This is encouraging. (well, not for you back in 15th place, but...)

What rank are these players?
 
Is this looking like it's localised, or more of an issue for US and Canadian players? There seems to be more of you guys posting the same experiences and not as many Euro players?

I only say that because I'm in the UK, race between 7pm and 2am and rarely see more than 3 or 4 DR:Bs in my lobbies (usually). Mine are nearly always predominately DR:A with 2-4 DR:S. There's the odd exception but this is the norm for me.

Edit: I play mostly race B or C

I am going to go out on a limb and say there is likely more players online in the Euro region than in the Americas.

Keep in mind , we've all seen the hero one minute, cannon fodder the next phenomenon. You know the one, where you are DR-C or something, doing great, setting poles and getting wins with DR D guys, then all of a sudden you are in a room with SR-S and SR-A guys at the back of the pack. Then you race a little more, and you are in a room with B's and C's again. It's either an uncanny quirk in the system, or the system intentionally populates the back of the pack with MUCH lower ranked players.

As you move up to being a mid level DR-A, you do end up being in the room with folks more or less the same as you. I think this phenomenon tends to happen when you are at the polar ends of a DR level.

In any event, if the matchmaking is bad, it is often worst at low volume times. That means fewer sport mode players is a big issue. It needs to be addressed.
 
I think this might be why you've been a bit skeptical towards some posts :)

Asia Pacific A, B or C I have never been in a lobby (that I remember) that did not have at least a 3 tier spread in DR, and not unusual to have 3 tier spread in SR (usually 1-2 for me). The worst ones I ever had were over new years day or xmas (can't quite remember) and it was every DR and every SR in the one lobby for 1-2 days. You can imagine how fun that was as A/S.

I am not saying it does not happen for other players, but for me - well I've done maybe 800 races in that region and that is my experience.

Having said that, I have had similar experiences to you in Euro region with much better matchmaking. Only problem I suspect for me is the times I play it can be more imbalanced. So I might get a full A/S lobby one race, then get some more mixed ones immediately after. That is when I really noticed the issues with the new penalty system.

So, you've probably had a much better experience with everyone in the races on the same page, so to speak.
I'm in the same region as you and while I've not done anywhere near as many races, I've had a similar experience. I posted this picture in another thread as an example.
Gran Turismo™SPORT_20180205101203.jpg


@Voodoovaj Your correct about the Euro region, in fact it's 63% of the total number according to one stats site.:eek:
 
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I think this might be why you've been a bit skeptical towards some posts :)

Asia Pacific A, B or C I have never been in a lobby (that I remember) that did not have at least a 3 tier spread in DR, and not unusual to have 3 tier spread in SR (usually 1-2 for me). The worst ones I ever had were over new years day or xmas (can't quite remember) and it was every DR and every SR in the one lobby for 1-2 days. You can imagine how fun that was as A/S.

I am not saying it does not happen for other players, but for me - well I've done maybe 800 races in that region and that is my experience.

Having said that, I have had similar experiences to you in Euro region with much better matchmaking. Only problem I suspect for me is the times I play it can be more imbalanced. So I might get a full A/S lobby one race, then get some more mixed ones immediately after. That is when I really noticed the issues with the new penalty system.

So, you've probably had a much better experience with everyone in the races on the same page, so to speak.

You're right, my opinion had been slighted by what is looking like good matchmaking for me, and awful for others. I just wanted to put some input in, as reading the last few pages, this thread has become really constructive and there is obviously issues which I've not been subjected to (yet lol).
 
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