Just Raced Under The New Algorithms and Rules

[JulesDennis]

You seem to be forgetting that a lot of higher ranked guys used those same dirty moves on lower ranked guys. As clean as possible just doesn't cut it in my book. You're either clean or you're not. There's no middle ground.

No mate.I dont forget that.In fact,I was pointing out for a long time that because the rating-penalty system is not working as it should,there are many that have much better ratings compered to what they should have.
That is a problem that the rating/penalty system created.BTW you seem to forget that mistakes do happen.Thats why I said " as clean as possible".
Can you say that you,yourself have never done a mistake in all the races you been into?

Speaking from experience, I've seen way too many supposedly super clean high DR drivers using super aggressive moves on lower rank drivers as they've got more to lose by finishing behind them. Justify that high ranking with slightly harsher penalties. You've earned both. Prove you can stay there.

Like I said earlier though. I've no idea where PD can find a middle ground to keep everyone happy. To be honest, I don't think there is a middle ground.

Aggressive move does not equal "dirty" move.Any time you try to pass someone you are actually being "aggressive".
BTW the penalty system should work the same way,no matter your "level" or "ranking".If not,some people will always have an advantage against others.

 

[JacksHerer]

I hate seeing ghosting in racing games, also, slowing down to serve a penalty can remove you from the battle with the guy that you gave or gave you the penalty.

 

[kjeldsen]

I hate seeing ghosting in racing games, also, slowing down to serve a penalty can remove you from the battle with the guy that you gave or gave you the penalty.

So a drive through penalty next lap or if needed a stop and go. I would love that, the game could easily reduce the speed as needed to fit the punishment. Of course it would make a small punishment impossible as every drive through would be way more than 2 seconds.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

In terms of *gameplay* it would be annoying to be taking maybe an SR risk trying to overtake a slower driver in front of you *without* knowing he was going to server a 20sec penalty post race if you see what I mean. Also you're denied the enjoyment of crossing the line first, for example. I think you HAVE to serve it in the pits after every lap you incur one would be a good deterrent. If you miss pit entry you're DQ.

Rammers would soon get bored of going into the pits EVERY single lap and they would be off our racing line

You need to try and remember the big picture.
Not everyone who plays GT is a GTPlanet member and takes their racing seriously.

Poor little Timmy next door doesn't deserve to be pitting every lap just because he makes an error on a corner or two.

Catering a system that works for complete novice children and also some of the fastest console sim racers isn't an easy task.

 

[JacksHerer]

So a drive through penalty next lap or if needed a stop and go. I would love that, the game could easily reduce the speed as needed to fit the punishment. Of course it would make a small punishment impossible as every drive through would be way more than 2 seconds.

A drive through would take 20+ seconds on most circuits, I would hate for that to be introduced, without a much cleverer penalty distribution system.

 

[Outspacer]

I have read every post in this 34 (!) pages topic and I still havent read any argument why there would be something wrong with the new penalty system. There are just some things that are still not perfect.

But most complaints seem to come from people coming from SB S and lowering their SB level. Sure in some/many cases it was not fair. But most cases it could well be from people who drove agressively to reach that SB S level thus not belonging there in the first place. They are hit hard, but this surely was PD’s intention.

SB S should be a top level for drivers who dont use any kind of contact or agression. Zero. If that means a lot of aliens are no alien anymore, so be it.

They can restart at the bottom and work themselves up again. Simple as that.

I've complained about the new system AND posted some reasonable logic for why there shouldn't be time penalties for little taps while PD cannot determine fault accurately. I'm DR A SR S, and still am after trying a few races with the new system. My SR would've gone up from 99 if it could, all races were blue. It's main effect on me is that I will unfairly lose a place occasionally, due to a 2 sec penalty even when the tap isn't my fault.

That's frustrating and pointless enough in itself, but made even worse if the other driver is lower ranked and doesn't get a penalty.

The changes to SR haven't troubled me personally (yet), but I doubt they are any more accurate than before. If they have made it so SR changes depend on DR then that is also a mistake from a technical standpoint, however much it sounds like common sense.

Trying to summarise it as "most complaints ... drove agressively ... not belonging there in the first place" is utterly false.

 

[manion]

Just did an fia race with 8 S/S and 12 A/S and what a load of crap this system is 1st place was the only one without the red dot and I went from 10th to 20th because of bs penalties that started when someone outbraked themselves and used me to stop was given 2 sec and then another 5 for a 'shortcut' which cost me time anyway.

Was cruising behind the mid pacl staying out of trouble saving a bit of fuel figured I could get a chunk back in the pits when a guy in front spins comes back on the track and slams front on into the side of my car giving me a 10 second penalty and then another 5 for hitting the barrier on the outside of the track.

This crap has got to change im ready to stop playing the way it is atm.

 

[bad_brain_1]

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[kilesa4568]

BTW you seem to forget that mistakes do happen.Thats why I said " as clean as possible".
Can you say that you,yourself have never done a mistake in all the races you been into?

So a risky move made by an "as clean as possible" driver gets justified if contact is caused? A clean driver wouldn't risk contact.

I'm as clean as clean gets but yes, I've made mistakes that have resulted in contact. Never capitalised on them so I don't think I fall into the "as clean as possible" category. We are out there but we're rare.

Aggressive move does not equal "dirty" move.Any time you try to pass someone you are actually being "aggressive".

I'm sorry, but that's rubbish. I'll put pressure on the person in front to try and create an opening, ie make them defend but that isn't aggressive. That's racing. I'll only go for a pass if the pass is viable. If it isn't, well played to the person in front for defending well. Speaking of which, I've never aggressively defended either. Get a run on me, the place is yours and good luck to you.

I hate seeing ghosting in racing games, also, slowing down to serve a penalty can remove you from the battle with the guy that you gave or gave you the penalty.

Slightly relaxed penalties wouldn't make ghosting that bad. I don't like it either but what alternative is there if it's a short no pit stop race?

 

[Outspacer]

You need to try and remember the big picture.
Not everyone who plays GT is a GTPlanet member and takes their racing seriously.

Poor little Timmy next door doesn't deserve to be pitting every lap just because he makes an error on a corner or two.

Catering a system that works for complete novice children and also some of the fastest console sim racers isn't an easy task.

This is very true, and many who focus on how well SR S players should behave are missing that point. Before the update SR seemed to be working reasonably well overall, with many people at each level, except for the bunching up at SR 99.

So in one sense harsher -SR for the higher SR players is logical. But not based on DR, if anything it should be based on SR and as a sliding scale so there is no point where two players with close SR points have wildly different scoring rules. That means there can't be a point where those above some threshold get -SR for a little tap and those below don't.

 

[JulesDennis]

So a risky move made by an "as clean as possible" driver gets justified if contact is caused? A clean driver wouldn't risk contact.

I'm as clean as clean gets but yes, I've made mistakes that have resulted in contact. Never capitalised on them so I don't think I fall into the "as clean as possible" category. We are out there but we're rare.

Every passing move has a risk because you never actually know,how the other is going to react.
With that said,since you had made mistakes,you also race "as clean as possible".A clean driver does not make contacts that are avoidable or dirty moves in order to gain a position.

I'm sorry, but that's rubbish. I'll put pressure on the person in front to try and create an opening, ie make them defend but that isn't aggressive. That's racing. I'll only go for a pass if the pass is viable. If it isn't, well played to the person in front for defending well. Speaking of which, I've never aggressively defended either. Get a run on me, the place is yours and good luck to you.

When you pass someone you are actually aggressive.There is a difference between aggresive and overaggressive.One driver can be aggresive and clean at the same time.
Like I said dont confuse aggresive with "dirty" driving.Its not the same thing.

Slightly relaxed penalties wouldn't make ghosting that bad. I don't like it either but what alternative is there if it's a short no pit stop race?

Put full damage on in all the races.Then we'll see who has the skills to actually be on top of the rankings.If we are going to have "ghosts" and no damage,then make it a "hotlap" competition.It will work better (especially for "alieans" and those that dont know how to race with others around them).

 

[Outspacer]

Edit - if people could see how many seconds penalty someone is carrying then it could encourage them to stop racing, if they haven't got their eyes on the next guy and the next guy.

I've been wanting to see the penalty times ever since they first introduced time penalties. It would only stop me bothering to race someone in a few cases, and certainly if attacking the next guy is viable then I'd try for it. The one with the penalty may well not bother defending as strongly as otherwise, so that's also a reason to try passing.

I'm trying to think how the racing could remain core, but still have contact penalised.

Why not just -SR? It used to ignore little taps, now they get a -SR. Without time penalties for it the incident would still be punished, but racing continues smoothly.

 

[JacksHerer]

Yep, I'm all for racing contact not receiving a time penalty, I would like only corner cutting to receive time penalties - and penalties carried to the finish line/pitstop. SR drops not to be regained in the current race.

I would like the game to remove people that cause deliberate contact, or that are too distracted to brake for a corner, or at least recognise them and give them penalties.

However, I know there will be GTA V gamers out there with GTS who will be very adept at knocking someone into a corner cut penalty. I think someone said the current system recognises this currently and doesn't penalise the corner cut?

Slightly relaxed penalties wouldn't make ghosting that bad. I don't like it either but what alternative is there if it's a short no pit stop race?

^ If there is no pitstop, the time penalty is added on the finish line.

I've been wanting to see the penalty times ever since they first introduced time penalties. It would only stop me bothering to race someone in a few cases, and certainly if attacking the next guy is viable then I'd try for it. The one with the penalty may well not bother defending as strongly as otherwise, so that's also a reason to try passing.

^ Yeh, I guess that would be no different from your engineer telling you what the cars in front and behind are up to.

 

[kevlar_hybrid]

You need to try and remember the big picture.
Not everyone who plays GT is a GTPlanet member and takes their racing seriously.

Poor little Timmy next door doesn't deserve to be pitting every lap just because he makes an error on a corner or two.

Catering a system that works for complete novice children and also some of the fastest console sim racers isn't an easy task.

Yeah, good point well made. Bit of a blinkered view I presented.

 

[Beevster]

Problem is if you put damage on, you won't see the best racers come top, you will see the best demolition derby racers finish top!

 

[Mr616]

I've been wanting to see the penalty times ever since they first introduced time penalties. It would only stop me bothering to race someone in a few cases, and certainly if attacking the next guy is viable then I'd try for it. The one with the penalty may well not bother defending as strongly as otherwise, so that's also a reason to try passing.



Why not just -SR? It used to ignore little taps, now they get a -SR. Without time penalties for it the incident would still be punished, but racing continues smoothly.

The problem with the old system for me was people would "save up" SR during a race then strategically pit/nudge/bump or outright ram you while maintaining blue SR by the end of the race.

If it was to remain just SR and no time penalty, the SR drop for contact should be considerable, and the loss of SR in that instance not being able to be recouped in that race (like stopping you earning SR & maybe even DR because of the contact).

This was the same for "minimal" "clean" contact which in reality was a nudge that was enough to disrupt your line and be overtaken. I felt like that was abused time and time again.

My sport mode experiences have been hugely positive since launch, but the last few weeks of the old system felt like people understood it very well, and manipulated it massively.

*Editied after the likes: This has had me thinking. How about a DR multiplier for clean driving. x1 Contact stops the multiplier and x2 contacts in a race stops you earning DR & SR?

 

[Sean Renon]

I had a wonderful race on Suzuka last night in the FIA races. I can load the replay later tonight if anyone is interested.
It was a lobby of 5-6 DR. S, 2 DR. B and everyone else was DR. A

I qualified 6th, ended up finishing in 5th.
4th place overshot spoon on the first lap and had trouble getting back on quickly, so I was tucked behind P4 pressuring him for a few laps, eventually I made a mistake coming into turn 1 and ended up about 2 seconds back.

After my pit I was running comfortably in 5th, but 2 laps in a row I made mistakes on the double right after the S bends and ended up losing a position to the guy who originally qualified right behind me.

For the last 4 laps I was on his bumper hard, seriously driving within 2 tenths of him sometimes, but never any contact. I went for an overtake on the back stretch after spoon before the left hander, but he successfully completed the over/under and I ran off track a little.
Then on the last lap, I got another good run out of spoon, took the inside, he tried the over/under but this time I stayed on track and we were side by side heading into the chicane.
My tires were 1 lap fresher, and I braked a little later so I could take the chicane on the inside, he slotted in behind and didn't manage to get past me before the finish.
I got P5, and he finished P6 - both of us climbing 1 spot from our qualifying positions.

All in all, we both ended with no penalties, no red dot - and we spent the last 4 laps within half a second of each other.

Just wanted to share some good feedback.

 

[bad_brain_1]

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[Mr616]

I had a rude reminder of this the other day, when I got a stream of incoherent abuse via PSN. I'm an old guy, so I suspect my default reading of texts/messages might be that the other party is like me, in terms of being an older adult. Attribution error.

So, I was thinking - wow, some person having a psychotic break has lost it, and I happen to be the idiot on the receiving end. What should I do? How do I respond to this?

Then I realized, it is more likely some kid in Sweden playing in his bedroom with mates.

Then I realized, hang on, who is playing this game. People like me are likely the weird outliers.

No you're not

 

[bad_brain_1]

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[Robben]

I had a wonderful race on Suzuka last night in the FIA races. I can load the replay later tonight if anyone is interested.
It was a lobby of 5-6 DR. S, 2 DR. B and everyone else was DR. A

I qualified 6th, ended up finishing in 5th.
4th place overshot spoon on the first lap and had trouble getting back on quickly, so I was tucked behind P4 pressuring him for a few laps, eventually I made a mistake coming into turn 1 and ended up about 2 seconds back.

After my pit I was running comfortably in 5th, but 2 laps in a row I made mistakes on the double right after the S bends and ended up losing a position to the guy who originally qualified right behind me.

For the last 4 laps I was on his bumper hard, seriously driving within 2 tenths of him sometimes, but never any contact. I went for an overtake on the back stretch after spoon before the left hander, but he successfully completed the over/under and I ran off track a little.
Then on the last lap, I got another good run out of spoon, took the inside, he tried the over/under but this time I stayed on track and we were side by side heading into the chicane.
My tires were 1 lap fresher, and I braked a little later so I could take the chicane on the inside, he slotted in behind and didn't manage to get past me before the finish.
I got P5, and he finished P6 - both of us climbing 1 spot from our qualifying positions.

All in all, we both ended with no penalties, no red dot - and we spent the last 4 laps within half a second of each other.

Just wanted to share some good feedback.

I'm on my longest consecutive clean race run (now at 4) since the game came out. Prior to the update the most I managed was 2. Since I have had 3 runs of 3 and now this one of 4. Personally, I am finding much cleaner driving.

 

[cleanLX]

time penalties, and, their growth when not served...
I understand why folks don't like it... I'm not big on it myself, but, lets look at this... devils advocate if you will.
If I'm running P3, P1 is driving off, and, I just cannot find a "clean" way past P2, but am much faster... hmm... maybe it's worth a nudge to push him off line, or a side to side "tap"... I can easily make up those 2seconds and more, and try and reel in P1.
The way it stands now, it's not worth the nudge, as, I'll have to serve the penalty, or watch it grow, thus giving the spot back...
If the penalty does not grow, well... 2 seconds might just be worth it... so, what happened to P2 in his "trust the system is working" to create clean racing?
That kind of puts us back to where we were prior P1.13...

serving time penalties...
what if there was a button assigned to activate "time being served"?
in activating the button the hazards come on and the car is slowed by the game, once you place the car off the preferred line... you stay full throttle...
Hazzards give others the warning, car must move off line to activate, the game then activates the slow down... kind like a pit lane speed control button...
Dunno?
But, folks slamming on the brakes, on the racing line or in corner is not working well from the videos I've seen.

 

[Outspacer]

Yep, I'm all for racing contact not receiving a time penalty, I would like only corner cutting to receive time penalties - and penalties carried to the finish line/pitstop. SR drops not to be regained in the current race.

I would like the game to remove people that cause deliberate contact, or that are too distracted to brake for a corner, or at least recognise them and give them penalties.

However, I know there will be GTA V gamers out there with GTS who will be very adept at knocking someone into a corner cut penalty. I think someone said the current system recognises this currently and doesn't penalise the corner cut?

There are only a very few cases where I think it could identify fault, but those are the most serious ones - when flying toward a corner at some point the overspeed is so great, that it should ghost them (and penalise).

Time penalties for off-track really need some work as well though. Going off through a mistake shouldn't also get a time penalty when time is lost - I'm talking about cases where it should be clear that at least some tenths have been lost.

SR drops have to be balanced in some way with SR gain, so that a neutral change is the most expected outcome for most people, on average, once they've found their level. The current fast dropping SR may not help that, at least it makes it hard for us to see yet how it will be, maybe it will settle down.

Maybe players that rack up a certain amount of -SR should be disqualified. It might take one big hit or a dozen small taps. But to be clear, for one big hit to cause DQ the sytem has to be 100% sure of fault, so it wouldn't apply to many cases.

The problem with the old system for me was people would "save up" SR during a race then strategically pit/nudge/bump or outright ram you while maintaining blue SR by the end of the race.

If it was to remain just SR and no time penalty, the SR drop for contact should be considerable, and the loss of SR in that instance not being able to be recouped in that race (like stopping you earning SR & maybe even DR because of the contact).

This was the same for "minimal" "clean" contact which in reality was a nudge that was enough to disrupt your line and be overtaken. I felt like that was abused time and time again.

My sport mode experiences have been hugely positive since launch, but the last few weeks of the old system felt like people understood it very well, and manipulated it massively.

Yes, the old system got gamed. Whatever new system will too. No, the SR drop for contact shouldn't be considerable, but it should be significant compared to how much you can gain from a race - which has been approx halved, don't forget. It clearly can't be as much as the +SR from a whole race which is the level that would satisfy your demand, since both players get the -SR.

How do time penalties help fight those last corner dirty moves? Last corner, you're in the lead, the dirty pushes past you, you both get 2 sec penalties and cross the line... with him ahead. All he has to worry about is the gap to third, not the penalty itself. And if he can slow you enough, maybe he slows third as well.

Sorry, there's nothing reasonable the system can do to prevent gaming the system, nothing that won't adversly affect everyone else too much. Most of the small taps that occur are not malevolent in any way.

time penalties, and, their growth when not served...
I understand why folks don't like it... I'm not big on it myself, but, lets look at this... devils advocate if you will.
If I'm running P3, P1 is driving off, and, I just cannot find a "clean" way past P2, but am much faster... hmm... maybe it's worth a nudge to push him off line, or a sided to side "tap"... I can easily make up those 2seconds and more, and try and reel in P1.
The way it stands now, it's not worth the nudge, as, I'll have to serve the penalty, or watch it grow, thus giving the spot back...
If the penalty does not grow, well... 2 seconds might just be worth it... so, what happened to P2 in his trust the system is working to create clean racing?
That kind of puts us back to where we were prior P1.13...

Hah, tree'd me

A 2 sec penalty didn't grow for me, at high DR A and SR S. I just carried it to the end. It didn't shrink hardly at all either, all the way round the ring including the karussel. Even if it did grow, if it was the last corner it wouldn't hinder someone.

 

[Voodoovaj]

I have read every post in this 34 (!) pages topic and I still havent read any argument why there would be something wrong with the new penalty system. There are just some things that are still not perfect.

Except all the repeated posts of how the innocent get more penalty than the aggressor and that people serving penalties slow to a crawl on the racing line, causing more penalties to innocent people. Oh, and that this change is not consistent across DR levels, allowing B drivers to still hit you. Maybe you think those are not big issues. I do. Maybe they can't fix who gets blamed, but they can fix the other two issues.

What did they think was going to happen when people got a penalty? Never mind what they thought, did they not test this before releasing it to the public?

The only viable way of serving a penalty, that I can think of, is an immediate slow down and ghosting.

Or you simply do not serve the penalty. If you incur a penalty, you are penalized until the end.

Ghosting is an easy decision in my opinion because, as I stated, what else did they think would happen with cars coming to a crawl on the racing line? They SHOULD have forced you to press the options button to go into auto-drive, instead, they prevent you from running off a penalty in auto-drive.

This is what happens when stuff isn't properly vetted before release. Someone made a short sighted call and jammed this change in without finding solutions to the problems.

 

[Robben]

A 2 sec penalty didn't grow for me, at high DR A and SR S. I just carried it to the end. It didn't shrink hardly at all either, all the way round the ring including the karussel. Even if it did grow, if it was the last corner it wouldn't hinder someone.

I'm sure I have read it only grows if it is over 5 seconds?

 

[Outspacer]

I'm sure I have read it only grows if it is over 5 seconds?

I've heard that too... just happily haven't suffered it myself yet. It's still a little unclear what differences there are at different ranks as well.

 

[bad_brain_1]

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[Robben]

I've heard that too... just happily haven't suffered it myself yet. It's still a little unclear what differences there are at different ranks as well.

From what I have read, I believe that it is only a) time penalties over 5 seconds that increase if not served immediately. And b) the additional penalties for not promptly serving a penalty greater than 5 seconds are dependant on DR (higher DR, faster accumulating penalties). The original penalties are not dependant on DR.

Edit: I also don't see why this is an issue as some people are making out.

 

[Outspacer]

From what I have read, I believe that it is only a) time penalties over 5 seconds that increase if not served immediately. And b) the additional penalties for not promptly serving a penalty greater than 5 seconds are dependant on DR (higher DR, faster accumulating penalties). The original penalties are not dependant on DR.

Yes, that's as I understand it so far as well. Apart from that it seems lower ranks don't get time penalties for minor collisions, so they might have hidden some other difference somewhere. I'm just being cautious in what I state as fact

 

[BSDShoes]

I'm sure I have read it only grows if it is over 5 seconds?

I haven't had a penalty under 5s grow, but for DR S drivers it probably grows at any point from what I've been hearing.