Just Raced Under The New Algorithms and Rules

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A drive through would likely be a lot more than the penalty. As someone said earlier, adding penalties at the end is more viable but I'd love to be a fly on the wall for 1st place with a minute's worth of penalties...:lol:

Anyhoo. I give up. Whatever they decide on, I'll deal with it.

(Maintenance tomorrow so keep your fingers crossed but don't hold your breath for a change. I think they'll want to see how this new harsher system plays out with more data.)


Of course, Mate! :)

Any way.. very honestly this and other´s harsh ways of penalization should only be implemented after a more correct and fair penalization system being implemented...and that can only be possible if the software routines with the aid of improved AI (also software) would become much more fair and correct on the determination of the % of blame to be attributed in any contact/shock between players and all the events that may come out of it... (such as ramming against a wall or other racers... mainly)...

Will it ever happen??

I ´m not sure but one thing is certain...

The game knows every input used by every racer in every condition and in any moment from the game, knows every thing that is happening on the game while playing it. except,, what goes through each players mind (and heart..) ... knows the speed, acceleration, weight, physical condition of the car and track in every moment... and it has his own AI... so...

Even if the AI ain´t perfect.. it has for every moment the what should be the most correct behavior (with some limitations of course) to be taken... and so it has enough data to compare between the most correct options and those taken by the players... for any situation...

It´s only data. I know... but it´s more or less based on data that "truth machines" are used... and this can always be quantified and deviations calculated...

It will not be an human like decision surely.. but I´m sure it may get someway close to fair.. and equal to everyone... as long as they try to do it... that kinda work & software... (if they ever di it... it would rule.. surely... above all racing simulations... :)
 
Well it is back to our disagreement :) My thinking runs that in reverse: "at all costs" is too high a price and blame cannot be determined, so they shouldn't have both drivers taking a time penalty.

My thoughts are still that SR should do the work. SR 99 should only be able to be kept by being perfectly clean. That's impossible for mortals, but that's fine. At that point it would only ever dish out -ve SR, with no +SR bonuses for clean sectors. Then it's a sliding scale from there on down. Obviously an SR 98 has to be able to gain 1 point to become SR 99. At the bottom end, it might be about as generous as it was before the update. SR level needn't affect how much -SR someone got from an incident, I think, but it could.

Let's say we had that, and you and I were somewhere in the low 90s, because we're not perfect. Anyone with bad habits should be lower, since there would be no way anyone at our level could come out of a race with +SR after anything more than a single light tap. In fact, for it to work, it has to be so harsh at that level that you and I would see red SR at the end relatively often... otherwise we'd just sail back up towards 99.

I don't think the massive -SR drops are necessary either. jasguer said he saw one about -180, I think... which must have been an exceptional race! Whatever else they've changed, I mean, I think the change to having -SR for every contact is sufficient change to score it more accurately.

My head is scrambled with all the variables involved, and people drawing from big differences in experiences with matchmaking, the new penalty system and expectation of racing standards. It certainly isn't straight forward, and as @kilesa4568 said, whatever they decide, I will adapt to.

I just hope they can make a decision that hits a compromise across all skill levels and keep the majority happy. Right now I can't make any other suggestions without tying my head in a knot (which could be why PD just plumped for the solution they did).

I'm wondering if they are doing this for data collection with a more refined system to follow in future. They've gone heavy handed now, with a view to finding a happy medium between the two?
 
I am now utterly confused. 2 races tonight. Didn qualify in the first one(too late) stared last. Finished 12th. Second race qualified 5th. Finished 2nd. My sr doubled despite 2 penalties in first race(clean second but no clean bonus, def didnt hit anything or anyone) but my dr plummeted by over a thousand points???
 
My head is scrambled with all the variables involved, and people drawing from big differences in experiences with matchmaking, the new penalty system and expectation of racing standards. It certainly isn't straight forward, and as @kilesa4568 said, whatever they decide, I will adapt to.

I just hope they can make a decision that hits a compromise across all skill levels and keep the majority happy. Right now I can't make any other suggestions without tying my head in a knot (which could be why PD just plumped for the solution they did).

I'm wondering if they are doing this for data collection with a more refined system to follow in future. They've gone heavy handed now, with a view to finding a happy medium between the two?

That's partly why I favour keeping DR and SR completely sparate - it's easier to think about!

I could make graphs and try and explain my ideas more, but yeah, it wouldn't help visualise how it would play out. But if essentially the number of tolerated incidents per race dropped off sharply for higher SR, it should be able to rate players better. Which would mean far better matchmaking at the higher levels. (I think they've got it right that SR is the primary factor for matchmaking).

As for PD's thinking, well, I've said it before but... the incoherence of some of it smells of pressure from management and deadlines. There is probably a coder there who's thinking a bit like me on this - trying to keep it mathematically fairly pure. Against that there's a manager or team lead who is full of "why don't we just ...." suggestions, underestimating the work. Of course the manager gets their way, and the coder spends a lot of time coding fault determination, rather than refining the SR. Then neither gets properly finished, and the manager has another bright idea.............. point is that managers can come up with ideas much faster than they can be implemented properly!
 
That's partly why I favour keeping DR and SR completely sparate - it's easier to think about!

I could make graphs and try and explain my ideas more, but yeah, it wouldn't help visualise how it would play out. But if essentially the number of tolerated incidents per race dropped off sharply for higher SR, it should be able to rate players better. Which would mean far better matchmaking at the higher levels. (I think they've got it right that SR is the primary factor for matchmaking).

As for PD's thinking, well, I've said it before but... the incoherence of some of it smells of pressure from management and deadlines. There is probably a coder there who's thinking a bit like me on this - trying to keep it mathematically fairly pure. Against that there's a manager or team lead who is full of "why don't we just ...." suggestions, underestimating the work. Of course the manager gets their way, and the coder spends a lot of time coding fault determination, rather than refining the SR. Then neither gets properly finished, and the manager has another bright idea.............. point is that managers can come up with ideas much faster than they can be implemented properly!
That's the way the real world works. Paycheck grows bottom to top, workload quite the opposite.
 
That's the way the real world works. Paycheck grows bottom to top, workload quite the opposite.

Of course, but my point wasn't simply about workload. More about design by committee really, with a bit of bike-shedding thrown in.
 
The one thing I dig about the changes, the only thing, has been the ghosting for lapped racers. It has been great. What has been even more amazinglicious about it, is when a DGAF backmarker tries to take you out! The downside is when you are hoping the person you are chasing is going to have problems navigating traffic, then you realize hang on, not anymore :( And also, but depends on your level of sociopathy, you can't be taken out by a stalker. Or be one.

Can you still draft behind cars you're about to lap? I've only lapped one car so far and he drove himself off the road to get out of the way before I could draft behind him. Without draft bumping and using back markers for a well timed break away attempt, Bluemoon is completely useless.
 
Wow, it was brutal tonight. I qualified 4th with the M4 with a time close to 2nd and 3rd. But got Wiped out in the first turn of a 10 lap race, the driver was bouncing off walls and in the grass until about 4 turns later and wiped me out again as I passed, or attempted to. Not sure if it was intentional, or just a driver in over their head, but man it was the sloppiest race yet. This driver qualified 5th?

I exited and got a warning about my ratings dropping. The last attempt at a race dropped me from A/S to B/S. Didn’t even look tonight.

I really couldn’t care less at this point. If my seemingly random “ratings” are D/D and i’m having fun, it’s better than S/S and being frustrated.


Hope the “maintenance” thats coming helps.
 
Despite finishing in top 5 in every race today, my SR has been going up and down, DR has been steadily going up though. Every single race I got at least one penalty even from a slight corner cut (accidental), didn't touch any other cars nor walls though, and almost every race every single driver on the grid had a red dot or pending penalty across the finish line, this is going to take some getting used to.
 
I'm on my longest consecutive clean race run (now at 4) since the game came out. Prior to the update the most I managed was 2. Since I have had 3 runs of 3 and now this one of 4. Personally, I am finding much cleaner driving.
Up to 5 after a nice race at Yamagiwa last night :)
 
Aggressive move does not equal "dirty" move.Any time you try to pass someone you are actually being "aggressive".
Yes but there is more than just dirty and not dirty. Agression can also be devided. With 6 SB levels there is absolutely no logic in not using agressive driving as a matchmaker. I will repeat what I posted earlier and what I think PD needs to apply:

1. Driving good and fair and clean with no agression (needs to remain SB S).
2. Driving good and fair but a little agression (needs to be SB A).
3. Driving good and fair but a lot more agression (needs to be SB B).
4. Driving not so fair (SB E-C).

Trying to summarise it as "most complaints ... drove agressively ... not belonging there in the first place" is utterly false.
See my above suggestions. Furthermore I clearly said most complaints. Which does not mean all complaints. Furthermore do not forget people who complain tend to react more than people who like it. Even if you look at this thread some people even just react because they want to give a different sound. Which means they would never react if this thread did not exist. To prove my point a little: check the daily discussion thread were most people who post seem to be happy with the new system.

I also see a lot of posts and clips of people complaining while hitting someone at the same time and saying it was unintentionally. Thats just proving my point. So please do not feel attacked yourself if you dont fall under my category but most complaints seem to come solely from agressive drivers which according to my suggestions should never belong in SB S (although they all clearly think they do).

Except all the repeated posts of how the innocent get more penalty than the aggressor and that people serving penalties slow to a crawl on the racing line, causing more penalties to innocent people. Oh, and that this change is not consistent across DR levels, allowing B drivers to still hit you. :rolleyes: Maybe you think those are not big issues.
Yes but I blame this on the matchmaking not the penalty system itself. In theory no DR S SB S driver should be confronted with eg a DR A SB A driver. Furthermore the ghosting is a problem, but it also was before the penalty change. The penalty system itself and how to serve the penalty are two different things.
 
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I've got some 20 second examples from today's daily C of the broken penalties

First a classic dive bomb

+2 sec for each. Why am I punished the same for being the recipient of a dive bomb manoever?

This next one really irked me

I have complete overlap at turn in point. The defender turns into me, yet he's a DR.B driver. Result I get SR Down and 2 sec penalty. He gets nothing for that, no red dot at the finish, all clear. If you're DR Bump, this is the way to stop DR.A and DR.S players.

In the same place

My wheels skid, I lose some speed, car behind doesn't pay attention and bumps me. No harm yet another 2 sec for me and 3 sec for the car behind.

Again that chicane

I overtake, miss my braking point and have to slow down extra. I stay on the side yet the car I overtook brushes mine. +2 sec each.

This one I don't even know

I guess he was following too close? The SR Down flashing up distracted me enough to go wide lol. +2 sec for me, +3 sec for the car behind.
 
Last one in the last turn

Clearly the fault of the car behind. I couldn't see him at first with the sun blotting out the mirror, still managed to correct enough to let his missile through. Contact happened +3 sec for me, +4 sec for the other car.

The penalties have reduced the number of problems a lot, but it could use some heavy fine tuning.
 
The examples you are giving are only proving my point tbh. Remember its a computer that needs to see what is happening.

Not attacking you as a fair driver Sven ! Just wanted to give some remarks from a different perspective as maybe seen from the games view.

Clearly the fault of the car behind.
You are driving pretty agressive there. The take-over of the car on the left could well be the reason for the penalty as well. Did that cross your mind ? You are in a place where you should maybe not be. Not saying you drive unfair, but see it what I meant about no agression vs a little agression.

My wheels skid, I lose some speed,
You say it yourself, you lose speed on a strange place which for the computer could seem you are intentionally blocking. Also I notice that some punishment are given while you already need to slow down. So could be that penalty’s are a bit harder then ?

Why am I punished the same for being the recipient of a dive bomb manoever?
Because you also seem to lose grip before impact (video needs different view) so the computer maybe blamed you for the incident. You are driving way to slow there which is logical for us since you brake for the drivers before you, but the computer may not see that part. Mostly because you seem unstable in the corner and it could just blame you for it. No big deal just bad luck. Its just a computer and definitely not just as clear as you say. (Of course the guy is dive bombing you that is not the issue here, just to be clear.)

I overtake, miss my braking point
You miss your brake point.

I guess he was following too close?
You were driving/braking on a strange place on the track, maybe the computer misunderstood that ?

PS I could have mixed up 2 remarks with the wrong video
 
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I’m done lol. Start B/B end at D/E. I give up lol. Not the game but trying to keep “clean” when I get side pressed or rear ended with growing penalties and sr down
 
muz
I am now utterly confused. 2 races tonight. Didn qualify in the first one(too late) stared last. Finished 12th. Second race qualified 5th. Finished 2nd. My sr doubled despite 2 penalties in first race(clean second but no clean bonus, def didnt hit anything or anyone) but my dr plummeted by over a thousand points???

You must have been beaten by a load of lower DR ranked players inrace 1 and only finished ahead of mostly lower ranked drivers in race 2
 
I’m done lol. Start B/B end at D/E. I give up lol. Not the game but trying to keep “clean” when I get side pressed or rear ended with growing penalties and sr down

Avoid contact. It's not hard. I have had more clean races since the update than the previous 4 months combined

Wish I had not watched that, I almost threw my laptop .

Across your heated table?
 
@Macboyilija

You still talk about "aggressive" style as it is equal to "dirty".That simly is wrong.
You also think that "non aggressive" drivers are supirior or more clean which again is not true.A more "passive" player can also be dirty and cause problems.
@Sven jeuken posted a series of videos that imo prove how bad the penalty system is.Yet you try to find ways to justify all these wrong penalties.And the penalty system is actually connected to both DR and SR.
So blaming the "matchmaking" and not the penalty system is like pointing to a tree and not seeing the forest.(since the matchmaking depends on DR/SR and those connect heavily with the "penalty" system).
The SR system you propose make zero sense.SR S should be clean drivers that can keep the car on track.Nothing more,nothing less.
The lower levels should be not so clean or not so capable drivers.Remember that "cutting track" or "hitting wall" or "abusing track limits" are also part of a not "clean driver",something that many "miss" to mention when they talk about SR.
In any case,time penalties should never be served into the track during the race.
The penalty system should be the same,no matter DR/SR level people are.And finally,full damage on in every single race that must be fixed into the pits.
Even if PD does not chance the "timed" penalty system,full damage and serving the penalties in the pits and not on track will make the racing better for everyone.As it is now,people can hit walls and get away with that,thinking that they are "clean" drivers.I am not a "clean" driver if I cannot do one lap without getting off track,one way or another.
PD you are trying to copy the best "matchmaking system" there is in the market.At least do it as best as possible.

@Robben
You cannot avoid contact every single time,especially if that contact is not your fault.You cannot simply "ghost" your car so another driver would not hit you.
 
See my above suggestions. Furthermore I clearly said most complaints. Which does not mean all complaints. Furthermore do not forget people who complain tend to react more than people who like it. Even if you look at this thread some people even just react because they want to give a different sound. Which means they would never react if this thread did not exist. To prove my point a little: check the daily discussion thread were most people who post seem to be happy with the new system.

I also see a lot of posts and clips of people complaining while hitting someone at the same time and saying it was unintentionally. Thats just proving my point. So please do not feel attacked yourself if you dont fall under my category but most complaints seem to come solely from agressive drivers which according to my suggestions should never belong in SB S (although they all clearly think they do).

No, sorry, it isn't 'most', nowhere near. Just think about it. Now that it's dishing out 2 sec penalties where it can't determine blame, it stands to reason that about half of the time the people getting them do not deserve them at all. It's also more than reasonable to think that those who might deserve them are getting more than those who don't, which skews it towards more innocent people suffering than others.

And that's before even thinking about other cases that we might debate, like when someone makes a mistake and the person behind can't avoid them, even though they had what would normally be a reasonable gap.

The story may well be completely different when it comes to SR. Those seeing large falls race after race are either doing something different, or getting matched into different situations, than those who don't. However, I think SR goes down - and up - too quickly at the moment, failing to rank people accurately.
 
in front of a 70 OLED HDR playing.
OFF
Don't you notice any image retention on the OLED screen? Playing GTS for hours definitely means displaying the same image for long time.
I was shopping for a new TV recently and chose hi grade Sony LED instead, though OLEDs look really amazing
ON
 
This is what happens when stuff isn't properly vetted before release. Someone made a short sighted call and jammed this change in without finding solutions to the problems.

I'm sorry to say it: but welcome to the AAA gaming industry.
Some producer makes a half-baked suggestion because he has a vague "cool" idea months (often years) too late in the development cycle, and a team of weary devs pull 12+ hour shifts for 3 months trying to shoe-horn it in even though they all know it's a disaster in waiting - but they have families to feed.

And don't think every conceivable problem doesn't get raised at every level, because it does, daily, but unless you're a producer you can sit & swivel.
 
Maybe it would make sense to display on HUD not only how many sec of penalty you get, but also the reason? OK, noone would read it in the heat of the race, but later in replay we could understand the case better and maybe also learn from it?
Hm?
 
Maybe it would make sense to display on HUD not only how many sec of penalty you get, but also the reason? OK, noone would read it in the heat of the race, but later in replay we could understand the case better and maybe also learn from it?
Hm?
It doesn't show penalties in replay...
 
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