Just Raced Under The New Algorithms and Rules

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Yes, that's as I understand it so far as well. Apart from that it seems lower ranks don't get time penalties for minor collisions, so they might have hidden some other difference somewhere. I'm just being cautious in what I state as fact :)
Hence my use of "from what I have read" and "I believe" :)

I haven't had a penalty under 5s grow, but for DR S drivers it probably grows at any point from what I've been hearing.

No, I'm pretty confident that it only grows if it is originally greater than 5 seconds. I think the problem is that everyone thinks they are going to grow immediately because the thing flashes, which is why you end up with people suddenly braking after corners etc.
 
No, I'm pretty confident that it only grows if it is originally greater than 5 seconds. I think the problem is that everyone thinks they are going to grow immediately because the thing flashes, which is why you end up with people suddenly braking after corners etc.

I've seen so many people getting 2 second penalties passing guys with a slight tap and sacrificing at least 4-5 seconds removing it at the start of the next straight, then getting caught back up in the battle they got the penalty from in the first place. Penalties breeding penalties :lol:

Much better to just carry on in clean air and slow right on the finish line (making sure no one is right behind you of course) or keep it.
 
My wife then gives me a whopping great growing pen...

Didn't think you were going to write penalty again then!

I've seen so many people getting 2 second penalties passing guys with a slight tap and sacrificing at least 4-5 seconds removing it at the start of the next straight, then getting caught back up in the battle they got the penalty from in the first place. Penalties breeding penalties :lol:

Much better to just carry on in clean air and slow right on the finish line (making sure no one is right behind you of course) or keep it.

Yeah the problem was that some races ended up with rows of people sat on the finish line :lol:
 
Yes, the old system got gamed. Whatever new system will too. No, the SR drop for contact shouldn't be considerable, but it should be significant compared to how much you can gain from a race - which has been approx halved, don't forget. It clearly can't be as much as the +SR from a whole race which is the level that would satisfy your demand, since both players get the -SR.

How do time penalties help fight those last corner dirty moves? Last corner, you're in the lead, the dirty pushes past you, you both get 2 sec penalties and cross the line... with him ahead. All he has to worry about is the gap to third, not the penalty itself. And if he can slow you enough, maybe he slows third as well.

Sorry, there's nothing reasonable the system can do to prevent gaming the system, nothing that won't adversly affect everyone else too much. Most of the small taps that occur are not malevolent in any way.
The above in bold is Quoted from @Outspacer (I don't know how I've managed that with no quote lol...)



But I haven't had any of that behaviour happen to me since the penalties were introduced, and the racing has still been close but much cleaner and has all but abolished the love tap BS contact. This type of contact still should not be acceptable. I've raced people with zero contact for many laps and many races, yet some people seem to have contact in nearly every race that is "accidental". I don't buy that for the majority and I don't think PD do either which is why we have been hit with a sledge hammer.

The closer qually times get on the grid, the less overtaking will happen in a race. One of my races had first to 14th covered by about 7tenths. That kind of race will NOT be an overtaking fest, and may look processional to some, but that is close competitive racing.

I feel some people want to over take like others are AI, and I've been described as not pushing or being scared to overtake on the first 2laps of a 17lap race, in a close grid. I'm sorry, should I be divebombing 2 or 3 places right from the start? No. I will bide my time, conserve fuel and tyres and not blow my long race on lap 2.

Peoples mentality needs changing for what is expected in a race. Although not perfect, this system is teaching people the hard way.

I now know that matchmaking and very mixed DR grids can turn this into choas, and the serving of penalties needs addressing (as well as the contact threshold), but a time penalty on track is a better deterrent than a SR drop. Contact that results in no DR SR earning for that race is also a better deterrent.

The actual driving standards have improved imo.
 
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IMHO the previous and current implementations, taken together, are a good exemplar of how not to do a risk/reward system, and in terms of the SR point system, particularly good as an example of a lack of familiarity with some basic game theory fundamentals. God, that sounds unbearably pompous doesn't it, sorry. On the internet, woof woof and all that :(

No, it doesn't.

"Game theory" is an economic risk/reward thing that often doesn't always apply to game design. But, in this design, the risk is that you lose DR/Sr, which has some in game detriment (race quality and fewer FIA points) but that's offset with potentially easier races, which means potentially more success.

Anyway, on that note, MAINTENANCE NOTICE!!!

Who wants to wager the penalties will get changed again?

Yes, the old system got gamed. Whatever new system will too. No, the SR drop for contact shouldn't be considerable, but it should be significant compared to how much you can gain from a race - which has been approx halved, don't forget. It clearly can't be as much as the +SR from a whole race which is the level that would satisfy your demand, since both players get the -SR.

I have said from the beginning that your DR should not fluctuate with such frequency. There should be a probationary system. Realistically, a player isn't an S driver one minute, then a D driver the next. He is simply skilled to a given degree.

Also, we are seeing that the SR is actually the much bigger factor and that by maintaining an S rating, with low S points, you can game the system and be served easy races where A and S level drivers can compete against D level drivers. I can't believe that anyone thinks that's a good idea.
 
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No, it doesn't.

"Game theory" is an economic risk/reward thing that often doesn't always apply to game design. But, in this design, the risk is that you lose DR/Sr, which has some in game detriment (race quality and fewer FIA points) but that's offset with potentially easier races, which means potentially more success.

Anyway, on that note, MAINTENANCE NOTICE!!!

Who wants to wager the penalties will get changed again?

I hope they do change them. Although I'm in favour, They are overly harsh (but I think it's served it's purpose in terms of what is now expected on track) and the serving of penalties does need looking at.
 
It's also a problem that time penalty is not really even depending on what part of track you get it. 2sec penalty could take more time to burn than 5sec penalty depending on where you try to burn it. Sometimes it doesn't burn at all even if you hit the brakes. It's not even for everybody by any means here. Penalties are fine but so many different factors here.

Would it be nice if there was a memo from PD that says how all of this works? Just the changes mentioned, nothing about how to deal with them.

All I know is that this is a classical example of carrot or stick. Atm good old japanese spanking, yeehaaa. :lol: It always helps too when adding insult to an injury.
 
@Voodoovaj I made a complete pigsear of trying to quote @Outspacer in my "longwinded" post above. The section you quoted was outspacers bit. Sorry to cause confusion. I've bolded his post now to try and make it look clearer. My bad.

I do race better than I forum, honest lol.

*Edit: And I agree. Sub 90 SR grants you easier lobbies, but also a massive mix of DR. Staying SR:94 or above keeps the lobbies close and tight with minimal DR spread for me.
 
So far, I have found the penalty system fairer than before the latest update. I have also noticed a general improvement in race-craft from my competitors (mostly).
 
But I haven't had any of that behaviour happen to me since the penalties were introduced, and the racing has still been close but much cleaner and has all but abolished the love tap BS contact. This type of contact still should not be acceptable. I've raced people with zero contact for many laps and many races, yet some people seem to have contact in nearly every race that is "accidental". I don't buy that for the majority and I don't think PD do either which is why we have been hit with a sledge hammer.

Well voices like yours are loud, and tales of being a victim are clearly persuasive to PD :P Not that you don't have a valid point, just that it shouldn't outweigh other considerations, IMO. And one of those is that a good amount of the time, such contact IS accidental, which is certainly my experience in DR A.

Basically what you're saying is that higher DR should mean there is less contact, which we agree on. However, I say that means that the SR system needs tuning so that lower DR racers will tend to have lower SR rating, with higher SR rating being much harder to obtain, and that would improve races in a better way.

The closer qually times get on the grid, the less overtaking will happen in a race. One of my races had first to 14th covered by about 7tenths. That kind of race will NOT be an overtaking fest, and may look processional to some, but that is close competitive racing.

I feel some people want to over take like others are AI, and I've been described as not pushing or being scared to overtake on the first 2laps of a 17lap race, in a close grid. I'm sorry, should I be divebombing 2 or 3 places right from the start? No. I will bide my time, conserve fuel and tyres and not blow my long race on lap 2.

Peoples mentality needs changing for what is expected in a race. Although not perfect, this system is teaching people the hard way.

I'm sort of similar - at the start of a race all I want to do is build a gap to whoever is behind me. Obviously I'll take a place if it's handed me on a plate, but fighting for one is only likely to slow me down, and is only worth it if the any behind are likely to get a chance of passing me.

I now know that matchmaking and very mixed DR grids can turn this into choas, and the serving of penalties needs addressing (as well as the contact threshold), but a time penalty on track is a better deterrent than a SR drop. Contact that results in no DR SR earning for that race is also a better deterrent.

The actual driving standards have improved imo.

I think even very minor taps should still be an SR drop. But if you're allowing that the contact threshold needs adressing, what are you thinking of?


I have said from the beginning that your DR should not fluctuate with such frequency. There should be a probationary system. Realistically, a player isn't an S driver one minute, then a D driver the next. He is simply skilled to a given degree.

That was my text, and I was talking about SR not DR. But sure, it goes for DR points as well, which is why I'm opposed to artificial changes in DR, like when SR drops a lot. Without those, DR would be relatively stable for most people (or gradually rising 'til they find their level).

That isn't true for DR letter though, since that is more cosmetic and being used as a slightly different thing - so limiting DR letter to SR letter is fine and doesn't break anything.
 
*Edit: And I agree. Sub 90 SR grants you easier lobbies, but also a massive mix of DR. Staying SR:94 or above keeps the lobbies close and tight with minimal DR spread for me.
Are you in NA region? As a DR B and DR C (two accounts) with SR 99, I get thrown in with a bunch of DR D's, DR gain against those are awful. There's been a wave of smurfs lately. Even on my newly created account, at the time still E/B I got thrown in with a bunch of DR B's and even SR A's.
 
The only viable way of serving a penalty, that I can think of, is an immediate slow down and ghosting.

Nope. Someone did that on Bathurst yesterday, slow down, ghosted to serve penalty in the twisty section, then became solid again when getting up to speed while I and others came around the corners at high speed.

Ghosting is a problem as well. Many people still take advantage of it to drive through people while ghosted or get inside another ghost just before they go solid to create a very dangerous situation with 2 cars in the space of one. The ghosted car will become solid as soon as the 2 separate for a millisecond usually causing contact.

Penalties should count at the end, or serve in the pit if over 10 seconds or so. Slowing down in the race causes nothing but trouble. Actually taking the penalty to the end has served me better every time. For example, one race I was in second, first pushed too hard while I was behind him, hit the wall and while I was keeping a margin he bounced off while over correcting. I brake yet he lost too much speed too quickly and is in the middle of the road, I hit, which only helps him and increases the gap between us from 0.2 to 1.0 sec. He got 3sec penalty, I got 4sec penalty for that.
I close the gap again then he decides the serve the penalty on the final straight, I avoid him when he brakes in front of me and race on. He lost 7 seconds on me by serving his 3 second penalty, I won with 4 sec added to my time. I guess I taught another soul just to sort it out at the finish, he would have won.
 
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I do race better than I forum, honest lol.

*Edit: And I agree. Sub 90 SR grants you easier lobbies, but also a massive mix of DR. Staying SR:94 or above keeps the lobbies close and tight with minimal DR spread for me.

We can't all be awesome at everything :D

Hopefully the update changes the matchmaking based on SR. IMHO SR should not be a matchmaking element, it should simply be a limiting factor on your DR. In other words, If you Drop SR from S to A, your DR drops from S to A along with it, and so on. Matchmaking should only be limited by DR. That would eliminate the wide spread of DR ranks in one race.

(disclaimer, I am assuming an update with the maintenance notice)

As for the penalties, if they are indeed changed in this update, it means something was released that was not as intended. If this penalty update were as intended, the community uproar would be allowed to persist much longer than one week. IMHO, the penalties are indeed backwards. Hopefully, the run off has also been dealt with.
 
I think even very minor taps should still be an SR drop. But if you're allowing that the contact threshold needs adressing, what are you thinking of?

I don't exactly know. SR drop for any contact I agree, but for penalties I suppose something that would allow a genuine "tap" provided the tap/contact didn't impact the other cars speed or line. It would have to detect what effect it had on the other driver. Maybe something that could detect a lift from the tapper (as in an admission of fault to a degree) and thus not take any action. If it detects a tap and no lift, or multiple contact within so many meters of track that results in a gained position, a penalty is then applied. Would that maybe "teach" better racing etiquette, or would it get just as abused as the previous system. Is that solution even plausible for PD to implement.

I'm only thinking aloud, and I can see the headache PD have with this. Maybe they thought we could police it ourselves with this current iteration and show some self restraint in the higher ranks? It looks like that is not the case, and throwing the SR/matchmaking into the mix and it's one big headache the more we analyse it.

@BSDShoes I'm in UK and normally hold an SR of 94 or above. My lobbies are pretty solid with mostly DR:A with some DR:S and a few DR:B. I only really run race B and C and race between 7pm and 2am.
 
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Just raced daily C , I'm B/S rated , got rear ended pretty hard, don't think it was deliberate they just got it wrong, I went off , came back on , no penalty, the guy who hit me got a penalty as he slowed on the straight , I even got a clean race , has something changed ?
 
You won't win any DR beating a D rated driver if you are A or S

Maybe you don't win much, but your chances of winning the race are much greater, and since you will be matched against a handful of A's and B's, you still win DR.

My DR was 40369 (A) SR 99 (S)

Had the big altercation mentioned earlier in this thread and finished that day with DR 42481(A) and SR 74 (A)

I entered races with the easier field (matchmaking, not my choice). Got three wins in four races. My Dr is currently 43434 (A) and SR 90 (S)

This is what I am trying to point out and I am SURE many racers already know. Despite this penalty change, if you are careful enough, you can still keep raising your DR and you can get wins.

I don't exactly know. SR drop for any contact I agree, but for penalties I suppose something that would allow a genuine "tap" provided the tap/contact didn't impact the other cars speed or line.

Exactly! As it stands, if you make a pass and "tap" the other car on the way by, they get a race destroying penalty instead of just losing a place. When I pass someone, I want to be ahead of them, I don't want to ruin their race.
 
I don't exactly know. SR drop for any contact I agree, but for penalties I suppose something that would allow a genuine "tap" provided the tap/contact didn't impact the other cars speed or line. It would have to detect what effect it had on the other driver. Maybe something that could detect a lift from the tapper (as in an admission of fault to a degree) and thus not take any action. If it detects a tap and no lift, or multiple contact within so many meters of track that results in a gained position, a penalty is then applied. Would that maybe "teach" better racing etiquette, or would it get just as abused as the previous system. Is that solution even plausible for PD to implement.

I'm only thinking aloud, and I can see the headache PD have with this. Maybe they thought we could police it ourselves with this current iteration and show some self restraint in the higher ranks? It looks like that is not the case, and throwing the SR/matchmaking into the mix and it's one big headache the more we analyse it.

The big issue is who is the 'other' driver... lighter contact might be the most difficult to determine fault on, in a way that isn't easy to game. Certainly needs far more sophisticated coding than we've seen so far.

The simplistic idea of the person behind, or the person inside on a corner, being at fault doesn't work for many cases, being too easy to game. Some time ago, maybe a few updates, I got given a penalty after the player in front went too deep into a corner, I kept to the racing line on entry, and left room on the outside for him on exit. I was almost completely past him when he turned back in and hit my rear quarter hard. I got spun and 5 secs penalty while he got nothing and carried on.

I'd still hate to see it ever give both players time penalties for an incident, so when it can't decide with confidence it has to fall back to just giving -SR. Deciding when it can't decide is probably pretty difficult to code as well though!

While I kind of like the idea of doing 'something' w.r.t. multiple contacts in a short time, I struggle to think what. I don't think it makes it any easier to determine which person is at fault, probably harder if anything. However, if it's that two are literally fighting and trading blows, then maybe that's a case where both getting time penalties would be appropriate.
 
The only viable way of serving a penalty, that I can think of, is an immediate slow down and ghosting.


Or instead., as in another racing simulation I´ve played (I think it's Pcars1)... you´ve got to enter pit in that same lap, or else you are disclassified (entering next lap without entering pit)... even if it is the last lap for you... in this situation final time will correspond to the full extent of the remaining penalization time added to the time you have when you enter pit with an added fixed time penalization...
 
The big issue is who is the 'other' driver... lighter contact might be the most difficult to determine fault on, in a way that isn't easy to game. Certainly needs far more sophisticated coding than we've seen so far.

The simplistic idea of the person behind, or the person inside on a corner, being at fault doesn't work for many cases, being too easy to game. Some time ago, maybe a few updates, I got given a penalty after the player in front went too deep into a corner, I kept to the racing line on entry, and left room on the outside for him on exit. I was almost completely past him when he turned back in and hit my rear quarter hard. I got spun and 5 secs penalty while he got nothing and carried on.

I'd still hate to see it ever give both players time penalties for an incident, so when it can't decide with confidence it has to fall back to just giving -SR. Deciding when it can't decide is probably pretty difficult to code as well though!

While I kind of like the idea of doing 'something' w.r.t. multiple contacts in a short time, I struggle to think what. I don't think it makes it any easier to determine which person is at fault, probably harder if anything. However, if it's that two are literally fighting and trading blows, then maybe that's a case where both getting time penalties would be appropriate.

And I think with such a grey area on blame is why we have both drivers incurring penalties. I can see why they have done this because 1) blame will be hard to apportion, I mean we can't all agree here on blame sometimes, and 2) without blame being factored in, it then encourages both the overtaker and the overtaken to avoid contact at all costs.
 
Or instead., as in another racing simulation I´ve played (I think it's Pcars1)... you´ve got to enter pit in that same lap, or else you are disclassified (entering next lap without entering pit)... even if it is the last lap for you... in this situation final time will correspond to the full extent of the remaining penalization time added to the time you have when you enter pit with an added fixed time penalization...

A drive through would likely be a lot more than the penalty. As someone said earlier, adding penalties at the end is more viable but I'd love to be a fly on the wall for 1st place with a minute's worth of penalties...:lol:

Anyhoo. I give up. Whatever they decide on, I'll deal with it.

(Maintenance tomorrow so keep your fingers crossed but don't hold your breath for a change. I think they'll want to see how this new harsher system plays out with more data.)
 
I stuck up for the SR rating/penalty system from the beginning of the game and always thought it wasn't perfect but pretty good job as a whole.

Well I can't say the same after the latest update, the amount of times people spin out in front of me or slow down on the exit of a corner (a lot after the new update) and i graze their car or smash into them where I had literally no chance to react and move out fop the way and i get 5 seconds penalties :/

My DR rating has already dropped to B from A and I can see my SR dropping from S pretty soon too.

Shame as it's really making me not enjoy Sport mode anymore, tried to do some lobby racing to get away from penalties but it's a crash fest.
 
And I think with such a grey area on blame is why we have both drivers incurring penalties. I can see why they have done this because 1) blame will be hard to apportion, I mean we can't all agree here on blame sometimes, and 2) without blame being factored in, it then encourages both the overtaker and the overtaken to avoid contact at all costs.

Well it is back to our disagreement :) My thinking runs that in reverse: "at all costs" is too high a price and blame cannot be determined, so they shouldn't have both drivers taking a time penalty.

My thoughts are still that SR should do the work. SR 99 should only be able to be kept by being perfectly clean. That's impossible for mortals, but that's fine. At that point it would only ever dish out -ve SR, with no +SR bonuses for clean sectors. Then it's a sliding scale from there on down. Obviously an SR 98 has to be able to gain 1 point to become SR 99. At the bottom end, it might be about as generous as it was before the update. SR level needn't affect how much -SR someone got from an incident, I think, but it could.

Let's say we had that, and you and I were somewhere in the low 90s, because we're not perfect. Anyone with bad habits should be lower, since there would be no way anyone at our level could come out of a race with +SR after anything more than a single light tap. In fact, for it to work, it has to be so harsh at that level that you and I would see red SR at the end relatively often... otherwise we'd just sail back up towards 99. (While they have made it slower to gain SR, it doesn't get even slower as you approach SR 99).

I don't think massive -SR drops are necessary either. jasguer said he saw one about -180, I think... which must have been an exceptional race! Whatever else they've changed, I mean, I think the change to having -SR for every contact is sufficient change to score it more accurately.
 
After a great day of racing in B my DR has gone from 20000 to 33000 and the first race as a A driver.
We are having a great race we are on lap 8 there is a three way dice for the lead, I'm in second when I get the slightest of taps in the rear... 2 second penalty and the driver in 3rd get 3 seconds. I continue he immediately slows now it's just the two of us I keep with him to put the pressure on but he makes no mistakes. At the last turn I slow and serve my penalty. :banghead::banghead:
 
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