Kaz interview on Eurogamer - Standards are here to stay! Poll added

[Greycap]

PD keeps standards - people whine because they look ugly.
PD drops standards - people whine because there's too few cars. Still more than in most other games, though. But this is GTPlanet.
PD updates every standard to premium - people whine because it takes time and they can't get the game right now, or preferably last week and for free.

I don't think PD can win this game. Not with the mindset people are having, everything PD does has to be better than what everyone else does or toys are flying out of the pram with a frightening rate. The current fashionable thing seems to compare it to Project CARS - how many cars does that one have? A thousand? No. Five hundred... three hundred... one hundred...? Well no. Less than one hundred from what I can gather from the web. It's completely OK but imagine the amount of bickering if GT7 was released with a hundred cars. The so called GT fans have some of the most ridiculous double standards I've ever seen and I'm certainly not buying the concept that "it's for the better for all of us to demand more" - yeah right, only that the demands for PD are on a very different level from those for everyone else.

The professional GT haters around here will not like this post. But at least after getting a couple of very angry quotes I know that I got it exactly right because otherwise they wouldn't be hellbent defending their own opinion, the one that is always correct and everyone disagreeing is wrong.

 

[Gerarghini]

Outsourcing isn't a magic bullet with no issues. Anyone who has painted a car in Forza will know what I mean. For those that don't, decals that morf or have weird quirks for seemingly no reason - just painted a car with this issue, vinyls inverting or displaying backwards, surfaces that won't work at all, you name it. Then again, T10 may have done the same thing themselves...

But at the very least, you need tight quality control, or things may not be right. In house always works best.

Which is why PD needs to hire more peeps. 150 ain't gonna cut it.

 

[Raitziger]

Same thing over and over again. t10 can do it but PD can't.

 

[lancia delta hf]

As some people think standards on the PS4 is a good idea and will in no way make PD and Kaz more of a laughing stock then what PD should do is scrap modeling any more premium cars and create 10.000 standard models, After all it doesnt matter if they look they belong on a ps2 right?

Hard core fans may be ok with it but fans like myself who have lost patience with this series will not be enticed to another GT with standards (even if i dont haveto drive them), The decision to add standards again is a bad one because it is very telling where PD is still at (not in a good place like the last 8 years) and that an absolute quality product is not their priority.

Anyway hardcore fans this decision to add standards is a bad one for you because non hardcore fans will not finance this franchise forever and you will no have new GT to play because it is dieing a slow death.

 

[vasiliflame]

No one who wants standards will get it but well done on the analogy.👍

I think a lot of this debate over standards has to do with screen size. I don't remember where I saw it, but there was a thread where people were talking about their home set up and I was very surprised at how few people play the game on a large screen. There were a great many people playing on 32" or less and rarely anyone above 42". Standards look a lot different on a 55" compared to a 32". I also suspect a large portion of fans are playing on 720p screens which makes everything look a little worse than optimum.

So if James Bond's face was crystal clear and you could see the pores in his skin, but Javier Bardem's face was all washed out and hard to distinguish, would that would be ok with you?.

FYI, driving in a race on a standard track with a standard car in front of you, 100% of the screen is filled with standard images.

I want standards and I understand analogy , its just I play bumper cam anyway , well its not that I want standards I just don't want to lose cars , its a compromise something I am personally willing to suck up and get over it

 

[-Cheezman-]

I see Polyphony Digital couldn't escape the latest game industry trend of lazy product development.

Atleast they can still put "over 1000 cars!" on the back of the box....

 

[Johnnypenso]

Don't worry guys, Kaz is just pulling out an MGS5 on us:

I know you posted this as a joke, but it's actually a good idea. Create a completely separate mode for standard cars and tracks, call it GTClassic

PD keeps standards - people whine because they look ugly.
PD drops standards - people whine because there's too few cars. Still more than in most other games, though. But this is GTPlanet.
PD updates every standard to premium - people whine because it takes time and they can't get the game right now, or preferably last week and for free.

I don't think PD can win this game. Not with the mindset people are having, everything PD does has to be better than what everyone else does or toys are flying out of the pram with a frightening rate. The current fashionable thing seems to compare it to Project CARS - how many cars does that one have? A thousand? No. Five hundred... three hundred... one hundred...? Well no. Less than one hundred from what I can gather from the web. It's completely OK but imagine the amount of bickering if GT7 was released with a hundred cars. The so called GT fans have some of the most ridiculous double standards I've ever seen and I'm certainly not buying the concept that "it's for the better for all of us to demand more" - yeah right, only that the demands for PD are on a very different level from those for everyone else.

The professional GT haters around here will not like this post. But at least after getting a couple of very angry quotes I know that I got it exactly right because otherwise they wouldn't be hellbent defending their own opinion, the one that is always correct and everyone disagreeing is wrong.

People disagreeing with the decision to keep standards isn't whining, it's disagreeing with the decision to keep standards. You've already lost the argument when you have to stick labels on people and separate them into neat, tiny, easily defined, one dimensional categories.

And yes, PD can win this game. Winning = sales. Choose one path you get one sales figure, choose the other path you get a different one. One path will likely lead to more sales overall than the other. We'll see in a year or two.

I want standards and I understand analogy , its just I play bumper cam anyway , well its not that I want standards I just don't want to lose cars , its a compromise something I am personally willing to suck up and get over it

Touche' Sir, touche'. This type of response I can understand!!

 

[Akira AC]

Same thing over and over again. t10 can do it but PD can't.

PD has already done it (mid you, around 400 Premium cars which is the same amount of content that of FM5, plus more tracks than FM5).

PD can't do 1000 premiums, and TBH I hardly see any company with any sense of budget spending doing it either.

 

[N24_VANTAGE]

PD has already done it (mid you, around 400 Premium cars which is the same amount of content that of FM5, plus more tracks than FM5).

PD can't do 1000 premiums, and TBH I hardly see any company with any sense of budget spending doing it either.

It's not just that, most of the standards are duplicates anyway. I think there's something like 20 different MX5's or something. I don't mind losing those, we only need one for gods sake.

 

[Johnnypenso]

PD has already done it (mid you, around 400 Premium cars which is the same amount of content that of FM5, plus more tracks than FM5).

PD can't do 1000 premiums, and TBH I hardly see any company with any sense of budget spending doing it either.

PD has been modeling GT5/6/7 premiums going on 7 or 8 years now. T10 has been modeling their XBone quality cars for only a couple of years at best and they are pumping them out at a furious rate.

 

[Akira AC]

PD has been modeling GT5/6/7 premiums going on 7 or 8 years now. T10 has been modeling their XBone quality cars for only a couple of years at best and they are pumping them out at a furious rate.

The cars on Forza have been reused many models for the last few years (see NSX as an example). FM4 models were build for autovista models and port overs from previous iterations a couple of years back, much like GT5 premiums, and many DLC cars they are pumping in are DLC cars that were feature in previous iterations of the game.

So, it's not "pumping them out at a furious rate", is more like "reusing half of them at a furious rate for a profit".

 

[SimTourist]

PD has been modeling GT5/6/7 premiums going on 7 or 8 years now. T10 has been modeling their XBone quality cars for only a couple of years at best and they are pumping them out at a furious rate.

Well, they have a very strong base with Forza 4 models, those might not have looked as good as GT's premiums, but they were still competent for the generation, for Forza 5 and next forzas they are basically taking those models and adding polygons and overall detail as well as completely new textures and materials. Forza 4 had something like a 600+ cars, Forza 5's car count obviously took a hit as T10 had to figure out new rendering techniques and be able to transition to a completely new architecture while still maintaining the high quality of the game and rock solid 60 fps. For Forza 6 in 2015 I honestly expect them to launch with at least 400 cars or maybe even all the cars from FM4. Updating models shouldn't take as long as making them from scratch.

 

[SimTourist]

The cars on Forza have been reused many models for the last few years (see NSX as an example). FM4 models were build for autovista models and port overs from previous iterations a couple of years back, much like GT5 premiums, and many DLC cars they are pumping in are DLC cars that were feature in previous iterations of the game.

So, it's not "pumping them out at a furious rate", is more like "reusing half of them at a furious rate for a profit".

Considering that Forza 5's models look much much better than Forza 4's with a lot of added detail I think you're wrong. They aren't simply porting Forza 4's content without any alteration, but have it significantly upgraded.

 

[Akira AC]

Considering that Forza 5's models look much much better than Forza 4's with a lot of added detail I think you're wrong. They aren't simply porting Forza 4's content without any alteration, but have it significantly upgraded.

At no moment I mentioned FM5 cars were FM4 ports, that said, implying that they don't use those models for FM5 is also incorrect, even if they were upgraded from an existing mesh.

 

[Lawndart]

I think its premature to take Kaz comments literally without context.

Game modeling is more about lighting and smoke an mirrors than polygons. Though they are important. Look up normal mapping for example.

Once PD start running models in GT 7 with all the new Lighting, increased contrast ratios, more AA and filtering, along with other post effects I think things won't look quite like you think it might today.

Once the final environmental effects are set, PD will identify further contrasts in the less detailed models and address them enough to look good "enough". (That's what any other developer does when recycling assets)

From a technical pov it's not at all likely they will port directly over.

What isn't likely to ever change is cockpits, that's a lot of work with a limited return.

Let's also not forget that PD will continue to up-res some standards as there are several that deserve it like the Supra, Gulf GT 40, and other cars that are iconic and proven to have automotive relevance.

But the most simple and less likely interpretation of Kaz words could be that he see's "standard cars" as a group of cars, not specifically identified as low res but as car models that should stay in the series... And just skipped over any mention of enhancements.

 

[Johnnypenso]

The cars on Forza have been reused many models for the last few years (see NSX as an example). FM4 models were build for autovista models and port overs from previous iterations a couple of years back, much like GT5 premiums, and many DLC cars they are pumping in are DLC cars that were feature in previous iterations of the game.

So, it's not "pumping them out at a furious rate", is more like "reusing half of them at a furious rate for a profit".

The difference is, they aren't putting them into F5 at F2 quality, everything is fully upgraded.

I think its premature to take Kaz comments literally without context.

Game modeling is more about lighting and smoke an mirrors than polygons. Though they are important. Look up normal mapping for example.

Once PD start running models in GT 7 with all the new Lighting, increased contrast ratios, more AA and filtering, along with other post effects I think things won't look quite like you think it might today.

Once the final environmental effects are set, PD will identify further contrasts in the less detailed models and address them enough to look good "enough". (That's what any other developer does when recycling assets)

From a technical pov it's not at all likely they will port directly over.

What isn't likely to ever change is cockpits, that's a lot of work with a limited return.

Let's also not forget that PD will continue to up-res some standards as there are several that deserve it like the Supra, Gulf GT 40, and other cars that are iconic and proven to have automotive relevance.

But the most simple and less likely interpretation of Kaz words could be that he see's "standard cars" as a group of cars, not specifically identified as low res but as car models that should stay in the series... And just skipped over any mention of enhancements.

As always, you are a voice of reason:tup:

 

[gtracedriver1]

Forza can't even get head light, dynamic lights to works on new hardware. Polyphony will make them look amateurs with GT7. It won't be even close. It is GT7 vs Pcars and I think Pcars will be bad, may be on gaming rig with mods it will be good

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Outsourcing isn't a magic bullet with no issues. Anyone who has painted a car in Forza will know what I mean. For those that don't, decals that morf or have weird quirks for seemingly no reason - just painted a car with this issue, vinyls inverting or displaying backwards, surfaces that won't work at all, you name it. Then again, T10 may have done the same thing themselves...

But at the very least, you need tight quality control, or things may not be right. In house always works best.

You make it sounds as if outsourcing is bad due to one group sending it out to one other group...that doesn't tell the whole story. Also in house isn't always best if it was then Standards wouldn't look bad in GT5 and GT6 with continuous touch ups to alleviate the problem. Once again it's this idea that PD are infallible in their approach.

Also Konami/Kojima outsourced the Metal Gear: Rising (since people want to keep using MGS comparison)

Forza can't even get head light, dynamic lights to works on new hardware. Polyphony will make them look amateurs with GT7. It won't be even close. It is GT7 vs Pcars and I think Pcars will be bad, may be on gaming rig with mods it will be good

What about the console images we've been shown that show it as good if not better than FM on XBONE?

 

[SSQES]

Forza can't even get head light, dynamic lights to works on new hardware. Polyphony will make them look amateurs with GT7. It won't be even close. It is GT7 vs Pcars and I think Pcars will be bad, may be on gaming rig with mods it will be good

We should wait the first gameplay videos before saying this.

 

[unit-one]

A deal breaker? Of course not! GT7 will be beautiful! Looking at what developers of the Drive Club has made, I'm pretty sure GT7 will bring something epic. I mean, Drive Club has cars that reflect themselves! You can see the mirrors and wings reflect on the car's body, this is something even Forza doesn't have.

 

[Akira AC]

Forza can't even get head light, dynamic lights to works on new hardware. Polyphony will make them look amateurs with GT7. It won't be even close. It is GT7 vs Pcars and I think Pcars will be bad, may be on gaming rig with mods it will be good

That's just pulling stuff out of ... aup doesn't allow me to go further.

Vanilla P-cars look better than anything else in the market, even with an average rig, GT7 would probably never get close to that, let alone FM5 look bad in comparison to any GT game to date.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

That's just pulling stuff out of ... aup doesn't allow me to go further.

Vanilla P-cars look better than anything else in the market, even with an average rig, GT7 would probably never get close to that, let alone FM5 look bad in comparison to any GT game to date.

Have you even bothered to look at FM5 images posted on here compared to the "dazzling" photo mode of GT6. I wouldn't make the comparison but you decided to say that it looks bad in comparison to any GT game to date so...

 

[glassjaw]

Same thing over and over again. t10 can do it but PD can't.

Not just T10, but every other developer in this genre. Don't understand why an exception should be made for PD.

 

[SimTourist]

At no moment I mentioned FM5 cars were FM4 ports, that said, implying that they don't use those models for FM5 is also incorrect, even if they were upgraded from an existing mesh.

Well if the model has accurate proportions and overall detail then there's really no point in doing the work from scratch. They've remodelled most of the worst offenders like F40, but even back then it wasn't anywhere near as bad as GT's standards.

 

[Akira AC]

Have you even bothered to look at FM5 images posted on here compared to the "dazzling" photo mode of GT6. I wouldn't make the comparison but you decided to say that it looks bad in comparison to any GT game to date so...

I didn't say that, read that again.

 

[SimTourist]

Forza can't even get head light, dynamic lights to works on new hardware. Polyphony will make them look amateurs with GT7. It won't be even close. It is GT7 vs Pcars and I think Pcars will be bad, may be on gaming rig with mods it will be good

And yet they have those things in Forza Horizon 2, funny huh? Obviously it wasn't ready for FM5, but there's a good chance that either weather or time change will be featured in FM6. And honestly its PD that are looking amateurish here with car models going as far back as 1999 in a PS4 game, and if they don't update Laguna Seca, Trial Mountain and Deep Forest to look at least above ps2 level...

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I didn't say that, read that again.

I did read it more than once, your post is broken English (not to be mean)

GT7 would probably never get close to that, let alone FM5 look bad in comparison to any GT game to date.

At first it seems to imply GT7 wont get close to it and will have trouble doing so with FM5, but then the second part says something different at least when you read it. It can be construed as FM will inferior by comparison.

Also the smart ass eye roll wasn't needed, rather clearing up what you truly are trying to say rather than taking issue to being called on it.

 

[Akira AC]

At first it seems to imply GT7 wont get close to it and will have trouble doing so with FM5, but then the second part says something different at least when you read it. It can be construed as FM will inferior by comparison.

Also the smart ass eye roll wasn't needed, rather clearing up what you truly are trying to say rather than taking issue to being called on it.

First up, those are called comas for a reason.

Secondly, no one seemed to read that they way you did.

And third, be mad for including rolleyes on reply to a sarcastic post, then be mad about it being called on the sarcasm?

 

[gtracedriver1]

That's just pulling stuff out of ... aup doesn't allow me to go further.

Vanilla P-cars look better than anything else in the market, even with an average rig, GT7 would probably never get close to that, let alone FM5 look bad in comparison to any GT game to date.

This is 7yrs ago and they were ahead of the competition what makes you think on PS4 they can't do the same again



Let us wait for next year E3. The car models are already very good. But they can improve it and more detailed cockpits for sure. HQ shadows grand stand full of crowd. They can put so much detail in GT7. GT6 they already achieved so much with a gimped gpu, a powerful cpu and split ram. PS4 is balanced console so it should be rather easy for them.

 

[SimTourist]

This is 7yrs ago and they were ahead of the competition what makes you think on PS4 they can't do the same again



Let us wait for next year E3. The car models are already very good. But they can improve it and more detailed cockpits for sure. HQ shadows grand stand full of crowd. They can put so much detail in GT7. GT6 they already achieved so much with a gimped gpu with a powerful cpu and split ram. PS4 is balanced console so it should be rather easy for them.

Ahead in graphics but way behind in sounds, ai, online features, etc. It's always tradeoffs in one or another area. And with Prologue PD have pretty much maxed out the PS3, so instead of making improvements further down the line like T10, they had to downgrade stuff from GT5: Prologue to implement new features in GT5/6. There is a reason why Prologue has the best image quality and framerate of all GTs on the PS3. Also has the best sounds in the series as well.