- 1,637
- Melbourne
Quantity: Adding as many cars as possible by whatever means necessary.
Quality: Achieving a certain level of quality for all assets of the game.
Exactly!
I'm in agreeance with what you said near the top of your post PD basically tried to cram it all in instead of as I've said a billion times just break it down. I'll take the hit of only having 300 premium cars for GT5 if it means I get a complete game... Once you get into that loop it's hard to get out because at least speaking for myself my mind set becomes is this game ever complete?
I know I get the same feeling, you are just getting a large beta and you have to cross your fingers you'll get what they promised. And it just puts you off. Years ago games were much smaller but it felt like you got the whole deal.
Actually just play Dirt 3... Interior View in Dirt 3 is something I want GT7 if they ever do it to have. It didn't feel narrow, close, or feel like just barely fitting. Another thing is the game has the little things like windshield wipers being used.
Those little details like the windshield wiper that you mention are things that augment that sense of immersion. I had a similar thing with Forza 5 when I opened the boot of a car and was able to see the felt. You could nearly smell it. Plus the sounds... I think the next 10 years are going to be great, especially once VR headsets become mainstream.
No, time management is managing your time to meet goals... You don't like that, fine; it doesn't make them bad at time management
Not only you are thick but you are also a fanboy. What you are saying is true "...managing your time to meet your goals" the problem is that the first step is setting those goals and realistic/achievable ones for that matter. That is what will save you the most amount of time. Plus I didn't say "time management is..." I said "Is about" and "has to do with" because those are related. Planning and organizing onto themselves are strategies, methods or whatever you want to call them that will help you dramatically to save time. GT grew without a clear direction, wanted to be a mix of a driving sim with casual racing, later it tried to add rally, drag racing (got canned) now it turns out it wants to mimic Sega Rally. It tried to cram everything and achieved nothing. Take racing for instance, after 15 years there is no flag system only thing we have are penalties that will result in your car being "teleported" Star Trek style or "ghosted"... so much for realism (and yes Forza sucks in that aspect as well, PCars looks promising though).
PD are horrible at time management. Practically all of their games have been delayed or had to be released without being properly finished. They could have saved themselves a few headaches by promising less.
I meant in terms of development costs. PD don't outsource to developing nations (as prolifically, at least), so their development costs per man hour are inevitably higher. What happens when everyone tries to do the most work for as little cost as possible ("race to the bottom")? We'll be getting a lesson soon enough, I'm sure.
Well I come from a developing nation (only been in Australia for 4 years) and it makes me happy that Turn 10 are actually hiring people in Vietnam to do this sort of work. Sure, they might not get payed as much as people from the Western world but the cost of living is also lower over there, perhaps they are getting great wages in relation to their local economy. Would you prefer for them to have a cool office job modeling cars and tracks where they can grow professionally or would prefer for them to be stuck in a factory working 12 hour shifts? Those guys have proven their worth and now have a great portfolio so maybe they will be able to negotiate better wages or work for a different company, they are not tied to T10. Maybe they will get to start a whole studio of their own, create a game and make millions.
If the Standards are so bad as you say, then they aren't even acting as a selling point (except through the whole car-count thing, which is naughty), and so they are not technically generating any revenue (assuming you're right).
The car-count is naughty and stupid, that is I think the only reason why they are still in the game. What I meant is that they just grab the previous game add a few things and market it as a full new game. It is easy to say "whoa we have 30 tracks!" when you just throw in 10 year old assets and don't even bother changing a couple of textures (have a look at Laguna Seca and others). Yes I know they are functional...
You have no clue what you are talking about!
Out of everything you could have mentioned, you chose sound: big mistake. The sound is the epitome of PD's long term approach. They could have easily reused the recordings they had and made samples appropriate for PS3; it turns out they've been aiming for something different (there is evidence in the games, regardless of whether Kaz had announced it), and as someone who dabbles in this kind of thing, that makes me very happy indeed. But, it's taken them longer to achieve that, because it's harder to do.
Long term approach is just an excuse you made up. Recording sounds might be difficult but many companies have done a better job a long time ago. I think Forza has had a lot to do with forcing them to acknowledge that their sounds are sub-par, it made a lot of people realize what can be done and how important they are to the whole experience.
A "project", or game series can be long term (or not), but very few games are made with long term plans, because publishers focus on the next installment... Flagship titles like GT or FM are a little different, sure, but GT is so in the extreme.
It is great that they have long term plans but they also have to learn to prioritize their projects and set out a clear path that will take them there without dropping the quality of the game or losing fans in the process. What good is it to be envisioning how GT24 will be if that makes you lose focus on the game you are about to release now and you lose half of your fan base?
PD got the sounds right from the start, too. For their era. The sounds in GT6 are (mostly) older than those in the original Forza game.
If you compare GT sounds with the ones from Colin McRae or other games from that period you will see that they were not that good even back then, they were just OK. Plus it is a lie that PD's sounds are older than Forza's. If you read GT's Pitstop blog you will see that they have never stopped recording cars. Every new car that has been introduced has been recorded (unless they copy pasted a few) so a car created in 2010 would have new sound samples. The problem was how they recorded them. Since 2003 apparently they started using a Dynapac... well this is really boring you can read all their excuses here. ----> http://pitstop.gran-turismo.com/en/article/26
Again, PD aren't doing the same thing as everyone else (i.e. Forza is actually a very different game, and always has been, despite how it came to be), because they have their sights set on something bigger.
Yeah, right... that excuse never gets old.
That about resolution is nonsense... "future-proofing" to me implies not having to do work again in the future; "long term planning" does not imply the same.
I am aware PD can show standard cars in 4k or more and display their "jaggies" for all the fanboys if they want for that matter. Obviously I was referring to the fact that PCars assets are so beautifully modeled that for them to be fully appreciated you need a 4K display. They will not need to improve those cars in a long time.
I'm sure PD could have put tyre pressure adjustments in the game and come up with a fudge in the physics (you know, with Yokohama's "help") so that people who have no idea about anything will be impressed. But the game is full of such fudges already, much as any game is, so I think we can do better than that - that'll take time, though. Neither game's tyre model is exactly stellar.
Right, so PD throws in LSD customization and all of their fans know what they are doing, Turn 10 puts tyre pressure settings and Forza players have no clue...
I'd rather PD worked on getting the fundamentals right before adding extraneous features to a flawed system (but then, the physics are more important to me).
This is exactly why fans are quitting the game for good. They have not bothered fixing the core of the game (fundamentals: sounds, visual consistency, career mode, A.I., damage,etc) yet they waste time with things like knocking cones on them moon.
OK, so the body kits have a "quality", that's an obvious thing to say. But body kits themselves are content; they are quantity from a development standpoint... If what you mean is that you don't like the inconsistency between the quality of the Standards and the quality of the Premiums, then fine; but some people aren't bothered by that, and that's regardless of what they might prefer.
Inconsistency = poor overall quality. We've already covered this and yes I know fanboys do not have any problem with anything made by PD.
Following from GT4, PD chose to apply a certain number of people to the task of making new cars... They focused on quality rather than quantity; that's why they only managed 200 of them for GT5's launch, and why the quantity of visual mods was so low. If they had more people or more time (or both), they could have made a higher quantity of cars at that quality, and / or more (quantity of) modifications. They spent their time (which they will have managed in some way) making those few cars only. Compromise.
You are assuming all this. We don't know if they take so long to model a car because they are lazy or if because they are using archaic tools or if their methods are just inefficient. Other companies have shown that you can get similar or better result in a shorter amount of time. Please don't forget that PD models the cars in a very superficial way (not even the inside of the wheels are modeled). If you don't believe me just go and check PCars models, they model every major mechanical components.
Probably fearful of a backlash like that they received with GT3 not having enough cars...
@Luminis already answered that beautifully.
The other choice they had at this point was to drastically grow the team (logistical nightmare)
Logistical nightmare??? Boeing employs over 160,000 people all over the world and you think PD wouldn't be able to handle hiring 100 or 200 more 3d modelers?
or outsource (logistical and creative imprecision and general inefficiency)
Turn 10 has already shown you that you are full of crap. I didn't know until just recently that some of their models had been outsourced. There are no discernible differences from the ones made by T10 and the outsourced ones. In fact I do not know which have and which have not being outsourced. I can't understand how you can be fine looking at PS2 era cars on a 1080p display but have problems with outsourced cars that look awesome and are even more detailed than GT ones.
So, what you're effectively saying is that, when people say "quality not quantity", what they really mean is "I want both, reality be damned"...
Every one likes quantity provided it comes in an honest way. So far PD has managed to hit the +1000 mark by recycling ten year old rubbish and by using any means to create duplicate cars (that is a very lengthy topic on its own). If all the assests are of similar high quality yes I have no problem with having quantity (unless it all a copy paste scam).
I'm not going to buy a new console yet. I'm a PC gamer, first and foremost, anyway, and I have plenty to go at (which is why I think games should be allowed to be different).
Are you going to buy Assetto Corsa? I've read it has the best physics engine of all sims.