Kaz interview on Eurogamer - Standards are here to stay! Poll added

[vasiliflame]

I'm gonna have to say at this point, everyone against this should petition pd hard on introducing this standard car filter. It'd unacceptable to you for them to be included it's unacceptable to me for them to all be removed.

Its a catch 22 in the long run no one wins , I hate to lose cars but I would also love for them all to be premium like yourself,

It's a situation that PD created themselves and for a lot of people it may be the straw that broke the camels back. After reading the news on the front page and coming back from Goodwood Thursday and seeing how The GT Academy pods and the staff operate I have come to the opinion not to expect anything from granturismo as you will be disappointed.

 

[H3avyM3tal]

None. Which would be a great point, if most content = best.

How ironic then that you made the previous statement.

PD have decided to pursue one avenue, quantity of content, more or less at the expense of all others. That some people would consider that the perfect game I don't dispute.

But even then, with a small staff, are they really making the best game that they could for you? Let's take this design goal to the extreme, and say that they're just trying to get the most content in the game possible. How does having 150 staff allow them to fulfill this goal better than if they had 300?

Are we still talking about standard cars, because it seems to me that that fact alone somehow overshadows the rest of the content the game has - in your eyes.

No, we are not and yes, I did.
No offence, but... It's just that I know what I'm talking about.. and it looks like you don't

Please explain, here or over pm. I will gladly apologize.

 

[dixonbaps]

I wonder what Sony have to say about having PS2 assets on a PS4?

It's Sony's baby (the PS4) and I think they want the best looking and best playing games for it with PS4 graphics and assets, not rehashed PS2 assets.

 

[sems4arsenal]

For all I care, Kaz can pur all standards in GT7, as long as I don't have to see AI using them...
Detailed cockpits: great ! But I hardly use this view while racing.
Blacked out interior: I would not mind for the same reason, but PD forces me to look at this crap, when entering the pits.

​

So why don't they do just that, upgrade the standards to premium. That way they upgrade the archive, standards are gone and we have more premiums. Afterwards they will have time enough to built more premiums if they feel like it...
Everybody happy ! No ?

They can't model most of them in time, the problem is by introducing standard cars in GT5, the priority of remodeling them is clearly very low, it's been 4 years since GT5 released and so few of standards have been converted, so they just keep them there.

If they model the most popular ones, even fewer people would complain about no more standard cars.

Also I am surprised their is no prolouge, also it seems that GT7 isn't that far which unless they will be sure that they have a better AI,damage and physics models ready alongside a Livery Editor, I worry for it to be honest.

 

[Zelalem]

I wonder what Sony have to say about having PS2 assets on a PS4?

It's Sony's baby (the PS4) and I think they want the best looking and best playing games for it with PS4 graphics and assets, not rehashed PS2 assets.

I don't believe they have a problem with it, because they can claim that their first simulation racing game on a console has over 1,000 cars! Good for Marketing, bad for - some - customers. What bothers me more than standard cars in GT is the fact that PD and Evolution doesn't work together. Which means only 50 cars in Driveclub. But this isn't the topic

 

[dixonbaps]

I don't believe they have a problem with it, because they can claim that their first simulation racing game on a console has over 1,000 cars! Good for Marketing, bad for - some - customers. What bothers me more than standard cars in GT is the fact that PD and Evolution doesn't work together. Which means only 50 cars in Driveclub. But this isn't the topic

Bad for Sony and PD as a whole I think. I can just imagine over at Turn10 and Microsoft when they realise what is released in GT7.

Microsoft will milk the fact that the XBone has Next Gen Graphics which is far superior to the PS4. Which I think will hurt the PS4 in the long run.

 

[SimTourist]

They should just make two separate modes: actual GT7 and GT Museum/Archive/Whateveryouwannacallitkaz

 

[Imari]

Are we still talking about standard cars, because it seems to me that that fact alone somehow overshadows the rest of the content the game has - in your eyes.

Content = cars and tracks. There are "standard" tracks as well.

And yes, I find that the standard cars and tracks do tend to overshadow the magnificence of their more recent premium cars and tracks. I find the disparity between the two jarring, and if there were a switch to push that only let me see premium content, I would have pushed it a long time ago.

So answer the question: How does having less staff allow a company to make a game with more content?

 

[Johnnypenso]

So why don't they do just that, upgrade the standards to premium. That way they upgrade the archive, standards are gone and we have more premiums. Afterwards they will have time enough to built more premiums if they feel like it...
Everybody happy ! No ?

Technically you can't just upgrade a standard to premium. A true premium has to be modeled from the ground up as a premium. That they did with the Ruf's for example was to touch up the standard car model and make it look better, "super-standard" if you will. A new premium is 6 months work according to PD, we don't know how long the super-standard took to remodel.

 

[sosa]

I wonder what Sony have to say about having PS2 assets on a PS4?

It's Sony's baby (the PS4) and I think they want the best looking and best playing games for it with PS4 graphics and assets, not rehashed PS2 assets.

Hmmm..... Minecraft...

 

[SimTourist]

Hmmm..... Minecraft...

Minecraft is using voxels which mean it is literally more advanced than any other game out there from technical perspective, sorta

 

[Chrix12]

So again the same blablabla with every new upcomming release of Gran Turismo. Fancy graphics more cars and probably still the same old 17 year old gameplay and same old boring SP. All those exclusive licenses with nothing special to add as just a name. How boring has this franchise become....

Every sequel of every game ever.

 

[sosa]

Minecraft is using voxels which mean it is literally more advanced than any other game out there from technical perspective, sorta

Minecraft is a supreme game no doubt about that, but claiming Sony put only nex-gen graphics games on PS4 is not true. As long as GT makes proffits things are not going to change in Sonys eyes. And don't forget Japanese love GT, Karaoke and Pachinko.... How can we understand them?

 

[Fanapryde]

Technically you can't just upgrade a standard to premium. A true premium has to be modeled from the ground up as a premium. That they did with the Ruf's for example was to touch up the standard car model and make it look better, "super-standard" if you will. A new premium is 6 months work according to PD, we don't know how long the super-standard took to remodel.

Ah, OK.
My knowledge in this does not go that far.

 

[SimTourist]

Minecraft is a supreme game no doubt about that, but claiming Sony put only nex-gen graphics games on PS4 is not true. As long as GT makes proffits things are not going to change in Sonys eyes. And don't forget Japanese love GT, Karaoke and Pachinko.... How can we understand them?

Well, nobody expects nextgen graphical quality from an indy studio such as Mojang with only a dozen people working there.

 

[H3avyM3tal]

So answer the question: How does having less staff allow a company to make a game with more content?

Standard cars and tracks is how.

 

[Imari]

Standard cars and tracks is how.

You're going to have to spell that one out for me.

How do standard cars and tracks make it so that more staff would end up with less content? Is there some restriction that only companies with 150 employees or less can use last gen content? As far as I can tell, a company with 300 employees can make a game with exactly the same amount of content as one with 150 employees, and then they have the option of making the other 150 people make content too.

 

[amar212]

If you took a poll of GTP members, arguably the most fanatic GTP fanbase around, how many do you think would be "happy" with standards in GT7? In your opinion, how what % of GTP'ers would have to be happy with standards in order for Kaz to include them, assuming it was our decision to make? Try to put your personal feelings aside and think like a developer. I'd like to get a handle on "lots of people"..

Well, there is a poll in this very thread and currently we have more than a half members having no problem with Standards and another 25% not being rudimentary against. Only 1/4 of voters were strictly against.

I don't know... If those results were presidential elections, Standards would win the presidency immediately, outclassing the major opponent with 2:1 ratio - and with added half of remaing 25% of the sway votes, the actual win would be even greater.

I see that many die-hard fans actually prefer to have Standards.

BTW I didn't vote myself simply because I want to see how the voting develops, but percentages are the same since yesterday.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Well, there is a poll in this very thread and currently we have more than a half members having no problem with Standards and another 25% not being rudimentary against. Only 1/4 of voters were strictly against.

I don't know... If those results were presidential elections, Standards would win the presidency immediately, outclassing the major opponent with 2:1 ratio - and with added half of remaing 25% of the sway votes, the actual win would be even greater.

I see that many die-hard fans actually prefer to have Standards.

BTW I didn't vote myself simply because I want to see how the voting develops, but percentages are the same since yesterday.

Then there's this poll with a different, simpler question and a yes/no answer and the split was 80/20 against standards.

The poll in this thread indicates nearly 50% of hardcore GT fans indicate either they won't buy GT7 with standards or they are waiting for reviews. If I told you in 2010 before GT5 was released that those would be the number for a next gen GT7 game no one would have believed it. The next GT game, new console or not, used to be an automatic purchase for every GT fan. The fact that it isn't anymore, should be worrying.

 

[amar212]

I agree.

 

[Samus]

By the way for those who struggle to understand the problem some of us have with the quality difference, here is an analogy.

I can quite easily watch a film in Blu-Ray HD quality -

It obviously looks stunning. However I could also quite easily watch it on DVD -

It doesn't look as good, but it looks the same throughout. What I wouldn't find appealing though is a version where 60% of the screen is HD quality and the other 40% is DVD quality -

Hard to illustrate with still images but yes, imagine that in motion. Part of the screen has HD detail, part doesn't. All the time. That is what we don't like the idea of. Not the quality of the standards themselves, we enjoyed them in GT3/4 and could still easily do now if we played the game. The issue is when they're put directly alongside better quality stuff at the same time, that is where the jarring issue appears.

Also someone mentioned Minecraft earlier. That is the same deal, because the graphics are consistently poor then it doesn't matter. If however they released an update where 60% of the world became photorealistic but the rest was still as is, people wouldn't be happy. Same idea.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

By the way for those who struggle to understand the problem some of us have with the quality difference, here is an analogy.

I can quite easily watch a film in Blu-Ray HD quality -
View attachment 177570

It obviously looks stunning. However I could also quite easily watch it on DVD -

View attachment 177569

It doesn't look as good, but it looks the same throughout. What I wouldn't find appealing though is a version where 60% of the screen is HD quality and the other 40% is DVD quality -

View attachment 177568

Hard to illustrate with still images but yes, imagine that in motion. Part of the screen has HD detail, part doesn't. All the time. That is what we don't like the idea of. Not the quality of the standards themselves, we enjoyed them in GT3/4 and could still easily do now if we played the game. The issue is when they're put directly alongside better quality stuff at the same time, that is where the jarring issue appears.

Which is why @Tornado said if they're going to do this it better damn well be a consistent/constant 1080p. I'd agree and I also agree that the frames rate should be as close to constant as possible, without the large drop of that happens.

 

[SCER]

By the way for those who struggle to understand the problem some of us have with the quality difference, here is an analogy.

I can quite easily watch a film in Blu-Ray HD quality -
View attachment 177570

It obviously looks stunning. However I could also quite easily watch it on DVD -

View attachment 177569

It doesn't look as good, but it looks the same throughout. What I wouldn't find appealing though is a version where 60% of the screen is HD quality and the other 40% is DVD quality -

View attachment 177568

Hard to illustrate with still images but yes, imagine that in motion. Part of the screen has HD detail, part doesn't. All the time. That is what we don't like the idea of. Not the quality of the standards themselves, we enjoyed them in GT3/4 and could still easily do now if we played the game. The issue is when they're put directly alongside better quality stuff at the same time, that is where the jarring issue appears.

Except that even during a race with standard cars, they probably take up about 10% of your screen, at most, at any given time.

 

[Samus]

Except that even during a race with standard cars, they probably take up about 3% of your screen, at most, at any given time.

Way to miss the bigger picture and instead focus on an exact comparison of the analogy.

 

[SCER]

Way to miss the bigger picture and instead focus on the exact comparison in the analogy.

But surely how much of the screen is taken up by these unsightly standard cars is relevant?
You even used percentages.

 

[Johnnypenso]

By the way for those who struggle to understand the problem some of us have with the quality difference, here is an analogy.

I can quite easily watch a film in Blu-Ray HD quality -
View attachment 177570

It obviously looks stunning. However I could also quite easily watch it on DVD -

View attachment 177569

It doesn't look as good, but it looks the same throughout. What I wouldn't find appealing though is a version where 60% of the screen is HD quality and the other 40% is DVD quality -

View attachment 177568

Hard to illustrate with still images but yes, imagine that in motion. Part of the screen has HD detail, part doesn't. All the time. That is what we don't like the idea of. Not the quality of the standards themselves, we enjoyed them in GT3/4 and could still easily do now if we played the game. The issue is when they're put directly alongside better quality stuff at the same time, that is where the jarring issue appears.

Also someone mentioned Minecraft earlier. That is the same deal, because the graphics are consistently poor then it doesn't matter. If however they released an update where 60% of the world became photorealistic but the rest was still as is, people wouldn't be happy. Same idea.

No one who wants standards will get it but well done on the analogy.👍

I think a lot of this debate over standards has to do with screen size. I don't remember where I saw it, but there was a thread where people were talking about their home set up and I was very surprised at how few people play the game on a large screen. There were a great many people playing on 32" or less and rarely anyone above 42". Standards look a lot different on a 55" compared to a 32". I also suspect a large portion of fans are playing on 720p screens which makes everything look a little worse than optimum.

But surely how much of the screen is taken up by these unsightly standard cars is relevant?
You even used percentages.

So if James Bond's face was crystal clear and you could see the pores in his skin, but Javier Bardem's face was all washed out and hard to distinguish, would that would be ok with you?.

FYI, driving in a race on a standard track with a standard car in front of you, 100% of the screen is filled with standard images.

 

[Samus]

But surely how much of the screen is taken up by these unsightly standard cars is relevant?

But that isn't a fixed amount, is it? If you race in bumper view and come up right behind one it could fill 90% of your screen. If none are in sight, it'll be none. That's why a direct comparison to that analogy was missing the overall point.

The point of that analogy was that the disparity and jarring mixture is the issue, not the singular quality of the standards. It was a direct response to those saying that we were spoiled today, they used to play on a Commodore 64 and loved it, PS1 games still look good etc. We know that, it's not the issue.

 

[SCER]

But that isn't a fixed amount, is it? If you race in bumper view and come up right behind one it could fill 90% of your screen. If none are in sight, it'll be none. That's why a direct comparison to that analogy was missing the overall point.

The point of that analogy was that the disparity and jarring mixture is the issue, not the singular quality of the standards.

Fair point.

I for one cycle between the use of 37", 39" and 46" screens and don't often use standard cars, and I never find them all that jarring to look at during races, but that's a matter of opinion.

 

[Zer0]

Then there's this poll with a different, simpler question and a yes/no answer and the split was 80/20 against standards.

The poll in this thread indicates nearly 50% of hardcore GT fans indicate either they won't buy GT7 with standards or they are waiting for reviews. If I told you in 2010 before GT5 was released that those would be the number for a next gen GT7 game no one would have believed it. The next GT game, new console or not, used to be an automatic purchase for every GT fan. The fact that it isn't anymore, should be worrying.

If one thing it can be extract from this, is that polls in GTP are not a reliable source, not even in the little ecosistem of GTP citizens. Probably the lack of PD news and general negativism a few months back influenced the results. And probably the last general flow of good news, game updates and the close approach of Kaz to its fanbase influenced also this thread poll.

Conclusion. If GT7 at the release have more good than bads, only a minority will make a big deal about the standards except if they look specially bad and can be used as an amunition throw to express a general disappointment (in the case that GT7 would had more bad points than goods, or in the case of the official "always negative no matter what" individuals living in GTP).

Anyway, looking at how good some standarts looks in GT6, I'm sure that the possible worst looking cars would not be as noticeable in GT7 as they were in GT5-6 in contrast with the premiums.

 

[Samus]

Fair point.

I for one cycle between the use of 37", 39" and 46" screens and don't often use standard cars, and I never find them all that jarring to look at during races, but that's a matter of opinion.

Also a fair point, but we're talking about PS4 here, where we can assume the quality of the rest of the image on screen will be significantly improved. I can appreciate some found the PS2/PS3 difference ok but I do wonder if they'll find the PS2/PS4 difference less distracting. MGSGZ perhaps can be used as a test. This was of course intentional, not through necessity of not having a better model and it's a mixture of PS1/PS2 quality but:

It looks pretty weird. Let's see how PS4 Gran Turismo + PS2 touched up assets look, personally I'm not thinking it's going to be good.