Kaz interview on Eurogamer - Standards are here to stay! Poll added

[H3avyM3tal]

It is not a correct answer.

Having less staff does not allow a team to reuse old content. Having old content allows a team to reuse old content.

There is no connection between team size and the ability to reuse old content. Any team can do it. It would be more correct to say that breathing in and out allows a team to reuse old content, because at least that is a requirement to do so.

So would you like to try again?

This educational attitude need to stop.

We are talking about PD here, not some random team. PD has old content to work with. Hence why my answer is correct, since we are in a GT forum.

I don't need to try again, because all you do is try to make this into something its not. There is no place for your smugness in this debate. Pay attention to the topic at hand and it's distinction from the whole industry. Regardless, this is something everyone in this topic should do.

 

[MXH]

PD has old content to work with.

That's a choice they've made. They don't have to though.

 

[TokoTurismo]

*Chuckles* @Imari is just too smart for him. *Chuckles*

 

[H3avyM3tal]

That's a choice they've made. They don't have to though.

True.

 

[alonsof1fan91]

Also Forza always had much higher amount of detail in the tracks, more geometry and better textures. So if they downgraded all that to GT level, completely chucked out their sound engine, allowed their engine to drop frames as low as 20 fps in worst condition, they could've easily made night and weather on 360. But the questions is would you really want them to make the compromises mentioned above in order to achieve the questionable experience that GT5/6 offered. Complete with jaggied shadows that draw 1 meter away from you and low rest alpha effects like smoke and dust?

1. Nordschleife/Spa/Suzuka/Brands Hatch/Red Bull Ring disagree with you about Forza tracks being more detailed
2. Just because Forza uses nice sound samples, its sound engine isn't more complex then GT5/6s. GT6 Replays disagree with you
3. GT6s drops to 20FPS? Yes, when you have 16 premiums (hint: 360 forzas used different car models for race and everything else), rain and day night cycle, but only 256/256 mb of ram and a weak ass gpu, this can happen.
4. Questionable experience? Ever heard of immersion?

Considering that GT6 on 720P (360 Forza resolution) runs close to 60fps locked and still offers all the advantage GT has (Day/night, Rain, higher level of detail car models), I cant see what makes T10 so superior to PD.

 

[UnkaD]

I would like to vote for "I will buy GT7 ONLY if all cars are present." It'd probably be the only vote.

Seriously, though, I would be sad if they removed all of my favorites.

 

[SimTourist]

1. Nordschleife/Spa/Suzuka/Brands Hatch/Red Bull Ring disagree with you about Forza tracks being more detailed
2. Just because Forza uses nice sound samples, its sound engine isn't more complex then GT5/6s. GT6 Replays disagree with you
3. GT6s drops to 20FPS? Yes, when you have 16 premiums (hint: 360 forzas used different car models for race and everything else), rain and day night cycle, but only 256/256 mb of ram and a weak ass gpu, this can happen.
4. Questionable experience? Ever heard of immersion?

Considering that GT6 on 720P (360 Forza resolution) runs close to 60fps locked and still offers all the advantage GT has (Day/night, Rain, higher level of detail car models), I cant see what makes T10 so superior to PD.

1. Nope, especially tracks made for Forza 5, but that's a given. Just a quick example:

The difference is massive. You can't possibly deny that. Brands Hatch and RBR were never featured in forza son can't compare.
2. Umm, no, not only forza uses much higher quality sound samples and a lot more of them, there are also special effects like distortion and reverb when going in a tunnel for example, in GT the sound doesn't change at all. In Forza 5 they took if further by having sound realistically bounce off the environment as well as even higher quality of samples and their range. In forza even tires make different sounds when on different surface. There are reasons why Forza is regarded as having some of the best sound quality and design not only in racing, but in gaming in general.
3. It's not my problem, if a developer can't achieve their target framerate. And 20 is a long way off the 60 fps target. You have to keep in touch with the platform limitations and work within those limits, not push the engine to the point where it becomes unplayable.
4. My immersion in GT5/6 is constantly broken by framerate drops, screen tearing, low res shadows, etc. No even gonna mention horrendous sounds and non-existent damage.

 

[MXH]

3. GT6s drops to 20FPS? Yes, when you have 16 premiums (hint: 360 forzas used different car models for race and everything else), rain and day night cycle, but only 256/256 mb of ram and a weak ass gpu, this can happen.

Bathurst (for instance) is a slideshow, regardless the amount of cars on track. It's awful.

 

[Imari]

We are talking about PD here, not some random team. PD has old content to work with.

Which is why they can reuse old content. Not anything to do with the size of their team.

There is no place for your smugness in this debate.

I think you're reading things that aren't there. I'm trying to be clear and concise. You're trying to prove a causal link that simply doesn't exist, and you're attempting to do with without any evidence at all, just by repeating "It is too! It is too!"

I'm sorry, but it doesn't work like that. You want debate? Provide some reasoning to back up your statements.

 

[Samus]

1. Nordschleife/Spa/Suzuka/Brands Hatch/Red Bull Ring disagree with you about Forza tracks being more detailed

Texture quality on those tracks is still poor for the most part. Just look at the photo on the latest news article, with the poop texture at the bottom of Eau Rouge.

 

[H3avyM3tal]

Which is why they can reuse old content. Not anything to do with the size of their team.

Because they have a small team, they would rather reuse assets instead of not. If that is not reason enough for you, then you are just thick headed.

Try to explain your question again in relation to PD and not just a random game developer. And yes, you are smug. Asking me for evidence when you present nothing but your own opinion?

I'm sorry, but it doesn't work like that. You want debate? Provide some reasoning to back up your statements. Just do it with PD in there.

 

[finnracer]

My view on this is mixed, I'm not pleased that such old assets are likely to be re-used on the PS4, 2 generations ahead of them. We will probably have 500-600 premium cars ready by the time GT7 is released so as long as some of the most popular standards are upgraded for the release I see no reason why they would be needed.

If pd were to bring all of the standards up to the standard (pardon the pun!) of the RUF's and other improved models I don't think they would bother people too much, as aside from the darker glass you would have to look very closely before you start to notice the differences. Also, if pd insist on bringing them back I beg them to get rid of all of the silly regional duplicates and basically identical versions of the same car (i.e. the 4 or so early 90's Civic SiR's, 1 or even the earliest and latest version would be plenty).

Having said that the re-inclusion of standard cars would not be enough sway my decision to buy GT7, I'd see it as an annoyance rather than something to go mad about, and this would be lessened if they were all upgraded to 'RUF standards' visually.

 

[Griffith500]

Texture quality on those tracks is still poor for the most part. Just look at the photo on the latest news article, with the poop texture at the bottom of Eau Rouge.

What would you say is the cause of that?

 

[Samus]

What would you say is the cause of that?

I know the reason textures are generally poor on GT6, doesn't change the fact they're generally worse than Forza though which what the point being made.

 

[Fat Tyre]

Because they have a small team, they would rather reuse assets instead of not. If that is not reason enough for you, then you are just thick headed.

Having a small team is not an excuse. Gt was one of the best selling games for Playstation. PD has had enormous success, they could have easily hired a lot more people years ago.

 

[H3avyM3tal]

Having a small team is not an excuse. Gt was one of the best selling games for Playstation. PD has had enormous success, they could have easily hired a lot more people years ago.

I agree, it's not an excuse. But it is a reason.

 

[Samus]

How are people doing with those 'must have' standard lists?

 

[RacerPaul]

Porting over assets from 2 generations ago to a PS4 game that's supposed to have the latest up to date graphics is the worst move any developer could make. PD must think we're stupid that they're carrying on with standard cars in a next-gen system.

I'd rather lose 800+ cars if it meant getting consistent graphical quality Nostalgia can only take a series so far before it ends up getting dragged through the dirt

I agree completely 👍 Ideally the PS2 quality cars could be in a dlc package so that those that wanted them could have them, and those of us that don't want old tat spoiling spoiling our next gen gaming could leave well alone

 

[Imari]

Because they have a small team, they would rather reuse assets instead of not. If that is not reason enough for you, then you are just thick headed.

And rightly so. But that wasn't the point under discussion. You stated that having a small team allowed them to reuse assets.

Please think about what "allow" means.

I agree that because they have a small team, it is beneficial for them to reuse assets. It is efficient. It is an intelligent use of resources.

Nothing about allowing reuse of assets though.

I'm sorry, but it doesn't work like that. You want debate? Provide some reasoning to back up your statements. Just do it with PD in there.

You still misunderstand the causality of the situation. Let's provide some examples of what a small team does allow Polyphony.

It likely allows more efficient communication. Less people means less information to keep on top of and distribute, and social groups will cover a larger proportion of the company.
It allows for the employees to be better equipped for the same budget, because there's less employees to equip with that money.
It allows more money to be spent on non-salary items for the same total budget, such as travel, equipment, external consulting, and so on.

All of these things are only possible with a small company. That is why we say that keeping the company small allows them. The implication is that they are not allowed in larger companies, otherwise there would be no point making the distinction.


You can knock off the abuse any time you like as well. Calling me thick headed and smug is unnecessary.

 

[SimTourist]

I'm actually quite unsure now in regards to what they're gonna do with the tracks, updating the surroundings with new geometry and textures is still not an easy task, and seeing how they're going with standard cars there is a possibility that they won't update the tracks currently present in GT6 in any meaningful way. Those modelled from the ground up for GT7 and PS4 will surely look amazing with high-poly surroundings and high res textures, but what of those modelled for PS2 and PS3 that we have know. Will they be kept as is? Quite possibly so. And I hate to bring up Forza again, but T10 has completely overhauled even old tracks, they're not just upressed FM4 tracks. And even during the same gen they have always updated and changed up old tracks, while GT5 > GT6 tracks in most cases have the exact same look complete with same lighting and eve skybox. The only case of PD updating a returning track is Autumn Ring.

 

[Fat Tyre]

Well if they have a small team then they should make a small game. 200 to 400 full next-gen premium cars and 12 tracks/45 diff layouts should be more than sufficient. Quality should never be compromised, just one ugly jagged car on track and immersion is broken.

 

[NixxxoN]

How are people doing with those 'must have' standard lists?

Im about to finish it.

 

[H3avyM3tal]

And rightly so. But that wasn't the point under discussion. You stated that having a small team allowed them to reuse assets.

Please think about what "allow" means.

I agree that because they have a small team, it is beneficial for them to reuse assets. It is efficient. It is an intelligent use of resources.

Nothing about allowing reuse of assets though.

You still misunderstand the causality of the situation. Let's provide some examples of what a small team does allow Polyphony.

It likely allows more efficient communication. Less people means less information to keep on top of and distribute, and social groups will cover a larger proportion of the company.
It allows for the employees to be better equipped for the same budget, because there's less employees to equip with that money.
It allows more money to be spent on non-salary items for the same total budget, such as travel, equipment, external consulting, and so on.

All of these things are only possible with a small company. That is why we say that keeping the company small allows them. The implication is that they are not allowed in larger companies, otherwise there would be no point making the distinction.

I don't think you can answer your own question. All these examples you give (and yet not one relating to the issue which is content) just showed me that.

How does having less staff allow a company to make a game with more content?. There is no right or wrong answer here. You are asking in a broad sense. I'm answering with this tpoic in mind. Again. PD can always make more content. It doesn't mean they need to throw away perfectly good assets instead of reusing them. Small teams make use of existing content (which PD has), which leads to more content overall. Having less employees allows them alot. In relation to content it allows them not alot. Hence reusing of old materials to generate more content.

Also, PD is not like most small companies.

 

[ShiftingGears]

Gran Turismo didn't become the household name it is by so noticably compromising in graphics quality during the first few releases. I severely doubt that Gran Turismo 3 would be the best selling GT game to date if the gameplay was interspersed with tracks and cars lifted straight out of the PS1 era games.

 

[alonsof1fan91]

1. Nope, especially tracks made for Forza 5, but that's a given. Just a quick example:

The difference is massive. You can't possibly deny that. Brands Hatch and RBR were never featured in forza son can't compare.
2. Umm, no, not only forza uses much higher quality sound samples and a lot more of them, there are also special effects like distortion and reverb when going in a tunnel for example, in GT the sound doesn't change at all. In Forza 5 they took if further by having sound realistically bounce off the environment as well as even higher quality of samples and their range. In forza even tires make different sounds when on different surface. There are reasons why Forza is regarded as having some of the best sound quality and design not only in racing, but in gaming in general.
3. It's not my problem, if a developer can't achieve their target framerate. And 20 is a long way off the 60 fps target. You have to keep in touch with the platform limitations and work within those limits, not push the engine to the point where it becomes unplayable.
4. My immersion in GT5/6 is constantly broken by framerate drops, screen tearing, low res shadows, etc. No even gonna mention horrendous sounds and non-existent damage.

Why are you turning this thread into FM-GT6 fan war? Criticizing PD for all their mistakes is fine, but all you seem to do is to tell everyone how much better FM is?

1. Now you are using a "standard" track (imo worsen than standard cars) for comparision? You could compare Spa,
Nordschleife (don't know whether FM4 had a accurate layout), Monza or Suzuka.
2. No body denies that Forza uses much better sound samples, but if you compare replays of Forza 4 (Why are you always using FM5, a One game?) and GT6 both sound very good and have nice effects. Drive the new Red Bull or a 97T, PD has still to make many strides but they are slowly getting the job done.
3. PD is hitting the framerate target if you play the game at the same resolultion as 360 forzas while offering all the other advantages GT has. I can understand if people have problems with juddering while using the higher resolution output (1440x1080), I notice it too but i am using cockpit cam for most of the time. But no one can tell me that GT6 runs at 20FPS, it may hit those number occacionally, but not the majority of the time. Even then I prefer 40-50FPS average at higher resolution to locked 60 FPS at 720p because I sit very far away from the TV and if you use cockpit view, it sometime gets really hard to notice cars in the mirrors. Yes, I prefer a ~40% higher rez output. If it bothers you too, turn down resolution.
4. And my immersions brakes by driving for 3 hours at a evening track day on the nordschleife with friends while the sky staying blue? This bothers me more than visible damage and low rez shadows.


GT6 has many faults, no one can deny this. I hate the fact that PD still tries to recycle content from 2001. I also dislike PDs japanese bias (or Nissans influence...) regarding the car list. And nothing bothers me more than seeing **** boxes as the Deltawing being faster than both the R18/TS030. Yet I can't understand it when people slash PD for giving us day/night cycles and dynamic weather... If framerate is so important to you play it on 720P or play FM/pc sims, but don't dare to put your fingers on those two features!

 

[vasiliflame]

1. Nope, especially tracks made for Forza 5, but that's a given. Just a quick example:

The difference is massive. You can't possibly deny that. Brands Hatch and RBR were never featured in forza son can't compare.
2. Umm, no, not only forza uses much higher quality sound samples and a lot more of them, there are also special effects like distortion and reverb when going in a tunnel for example, in GT the sound doesn't change at all. In Forza 5 they took if further by having sound realistically bounce off the environment as well as even higher quality of samples and their range. In forza even tires make different sounds when on different surface. There are reasons why Forza is regarded as having some of the best sound quality and design not only in racing, but in gaming in general.
3. It's not my problem, if a developer can't achieve their target framerate. And 20 is a long way off the 60 fps target. You have to keep in touch with the platform limitations and work within those limits, not push the engine to the point where it becomes unplayable.
4. My immersion in GT5/6 is constantly broken by framerate drops, screen tearing, low res shadows, etc. No even gonna mention horrendous sounds and non-existent damage.

I must admit xbox 360 looks much better texture wise , but the scale of objects are far from correct as in fences and the green floodlights and other things but that's just knit picking really

 

[LightningLord]

If standard cars are going to be in GT7, can PD at least give them a better exterior look? Some standard cars are hideous.

 

[Spagetti69]

If standard cars are going to be in GT7, can PD at least give them a better exterior look? Some standard cars are hideous.

Wouldn't the effort needed be better focused on new cars?

 

[LightningLord]

Wouldn't the effort needed be better focused on new cars?

True.

 

[Jimmy_DA]

..and to think some people were talking about GT on PS4 running at 4k resolution and being the graphical pinnacle of the console.

Well we know how that turned out, ps4's can't run nor will games in 4k (nor the xb1 also).

Yeah standard cars don't really bother me it'll be nice to still have them rather than scraped altogether. But really the phylosophy of this? Hey I thought the idea of franchising games was to keep a good idea going - THAT IS NOT A GOOD IDEA.

Seriously thinking of going Xbox more so now, with gt turning into utter 🤬
and ps4's lack of media capabilities (what's the USB3 ports for? ). Also heard the ps3 play blu rays better the only saving grace for Sony at this stage is Ratchet & Clank to me. Everything else I'll stick to PC for.