Kaz interview on Eurogamer - Standards are here to stay! Poll added

[TokoTurismo]

Now back on topic before I have to shoot myself!

O_O'

 

[Tornado]

1. Thats one of the problems with GT series, Forza never had premium and standard differences in their cars and tracks, pick any car and track and they're gonna look consistent with the rest of the game.

Less inconsistent than GT5 is a more accurate way to put it.

 

[Spagetti69]

Old cars are cool aswell (lots of standards are old cars). Yourself have an old Jag as avatar.

Totally missed the point I think.

I'm not concerned about the age of the car. I just felt time allocated to touching up old assets is a waste.

Having thought about it though.
If PD are keeping them forever they may as well. They will never have consistency in this series anyway.

 

[SimTourist]

Less inconsistent than GT5 is a more accurate way to put it.

Certainly doesn't have generational differences

 

[Tenacious D]

You make it sounds as if outsourcing is bad due to one group sending it out to one other group...that doesn't tell the whole story. Also in house isn't always best if it was then Standards wouldn't look bad in GT5 and GT6 with continuous touch ups to alleviate the problem. Once again it's this idea that PD are infallible in their approach.

No, I said what I meant. Outsourcing isn't a magic wand without its own issues. And yes, doing everything you can in house is the best way to go. If a car model needs more work or has some unforseen flaw, you find that out immediately in house.

As for Kojima outsourcing MSG work, I suppose you have posts of people lauding the authenticity of grenade modeling and the accuracy of front doors.

 

[ShiftingGears]

GT is getting better with each title. Each title is improved over the previous one.

You can say that, but games are judged by the capabilities of the hardware they run on and the merits of other contemporary games.

If I were a car manufacturer and I released a car in the 1970's with 1970's technology, it would seem good or at least competent for its time. If I were a car manufacturer in 2014 and released a car with 1980's era technology, it would get laughed out of the market. Even though it is technically superior to my 1970's car.


I would say the reason why sales and critical scores have been dropping for the last ten years is because several aspects of GT really haven't progressed as fast as the competition. To be technically better than a predecessor released six years ago on generation-old hardware isn't setting the bar high.

 

[SimTourist]

No, I said what I meant. Outsourcing isn't a magic wand without its own issues. And yes, doing everything you can in house is the best way to go. If a car model needs more work or has some unforseen flaw, you find that out immediately in house.

As for Kojima outsourcing MSG work, I suppose you have posts of people lauding the authenticity of grenade modeling and the accuracy of front doors.

Outsourcing becomes better over time as well as they get better at modelling to a particular standard. For example these guys do modelling for pretty much all main western racing devs - Codemasters, Criterion, Ghost, T10, Reflections. But you only hear complaints about outsourcing when forza is brought into conversation.
http://www.glassegg.com/portfolio.php

 

[Johnnypenso]

No, I said what I meant. Outsourcing isn't a magic wand without its own issues. And yes, doing everything you can in house is the best way to go. If a car model needs more work or has some unforseen flaw, you find that out immediately in house.

As for Kojima outsourcing MSG work, I suppose you have posts of people lauding the authenticity of grenade modeling and the accuracy of front doors.

I think you're raising a bunch of red herrings when it comes to outsourcing. Car modeling isn't rocket science and it's not hard to check using photos and/or real cars to see if the model is accurate and run it around a track and take a few photos with placeholder physics to make sure everything works as it's supposed to. Even if small flaws were found later on after release, it's nothing that can't be fixed with an update, if they have a system in place to gather feedback. PD would do the physics part in house.

You're not hiring some kid off the street or some random dude that walks into the office. It's a little more professional than that and I'm sure anyone that is contracted to do the work can be trained and monitored by PD staff. Millions of other businesses do the same including some you may have heard of like Toyota, Walmart, Apple...little businesses like that.

 

[OriginalCheezIt]

The way I see it, PD is really the Pagani of game developers. They try to do absolutely everything in-house, because they can assure that the finished product is up to their standards. Hopefully PD can find someone as tedious as they are, like how Pagani found AMG.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

No, I said what I meant. Outsourcing isn't a magic wand without its own issues. And yes, doing everything you can in house is the best way to go. If a car model needs more work or has some unforseen flaw, you find that out immediately in house.

As for Kojima outsourcing MSG work, I suppose you have posts of people lauding the authenticity of grenade modeling and the accuracy of front doors.

Sure

 

[Imari]

The way I see it, PD is really the Pagani of game developers. They try to do absolutely everything in-house, because they can assure that the finished product is up to their standards. Hopefully PD can find someone as tedious as they are, like how Pagani found AMG.

Ha!

Pagani makes sure every bolt on his cars is a work of art. The man is the true definition of a perfectionist. If it's not right, he goes back and does it again. And again. And again, until it is right.



PD has standard cars. Sure, they have quality standards for what can be a part of their final product, and they're laughably low.

Polyphony Digital doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as a craftsman like Horacio Pagani.

 

[Fat Tyre]

The way I see it, PD is really the Pagani of game developers. They try to do absolutely everything in-house, because they can assure that the finished product is up to their standards.

Well PD's standards are very low.

 

[OriginalCheezIt]

Ha!

Pagani makes sure every bolt on his cars is a work of art. The man is the true definition of a perfectionist. If it's not right, he goes back and does it again. And again. And again, until it is right.



PD has standard cars. Sure, they have quality standards for what can be a part of their final product, and they're laughably low.

Polyphony Digital doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as a craftsman like Horacio Pagani.

The work they have been doing recently? I would say that their standards are pretty damn high. And also, I do agree that they should outsource. Pagani would be absolutely nowhere right now if he didn't outsource some of his work. That was kinda the point I was trying to get across; Kaz needs to find someone WORTH outsourcing to before he hands over his baby.

And I have seen that before. Several times. Horacio Pagani is my role model for car design, and I hope that one day my name can be spoken in the same breath as his.

 

[Imari]

The work they have been doing recently? I would say that their standards are pretty damn high.

The assets or the finished product?

Their cars are of an extremely high quality. Their tracks are of a high quality.

However, taking GT6 (or GT5) as a whole product, it's pretty tough to say that the quality comes anywhere close to that shown by Horacio Pagani.

Is the AI of the same outstanding quality? The online services? The single player career modes? The sounds? The shadows and alpha effects?

Are ALL assets of the same outstanding quality, or just the ones PD puts front and centre?

That was my point. Horacio Pagani makes sure that every single component in his car is the best it can be. In this example, Polyphony Digital makes games instead of cars.

I don't think anyone can say with a straight face that Polyphony Digital has made every single component of their game the best it can be. Standard cars aside, there are a number of components where Kaz has admitted that they're not as good as they want. There are a number of components that we're still waiting to be completed, notably online services.

Polyphony talks the talk, but they do not walk the walk. They do not produce at the same level as Pagani, they simply make noises like they do.

 

[sparkytooth]

If that's case, the Pagani Huayra in GT6 makes the game perfect.

 

[OriginalCheezIt]

The assets or the finished product?

Their cars are of an extremely high quality. Their tracks are of a high quality.

However, taking GT6 (or GT5) as a whole product, it's pretty tough to say that the quality comes anywhere close to that shown by Horacio Pagani.

Is the AI of the same outstanding quality? The online services? The single player career modes? The sounds? The shadows and alpha effects?

Are ALL assets of the same outstanding quality, or just the ones PD puts front and centre?

That was my point. Horacio Pagani makes sure that every single component in his car is the best it can be. In this example, Polyphony Digital makes games instead of cars.

I don't think anyone can say with a straight face that Polyphony Digital has made every single component of their game the best it can be. Standard cars aside, there are a number of components where Kaz has admitted that they're not as good as they want. There are a number of components that we're still waiting to be completed, notably online services.

Polyphony talks the talk, but they do not walk the walk. They do not produce at the same level as Pagani, they simply make noises like they do.

I agree with you. PD does some things extremely well, like modelling cars and tracks. I see these as the sheet metal; the part you see and find beautiful. Other things, like coding, they need work in. The nuts and bolts. What I was trying to say is that PD needs to find someone with the ability to treat these nuts and bolts with the same scrutiny as PD does with their models. Just like how Pagani outsources production of their carbon fiber, engines, etc. Pagani don't know how to build engines to the same level as their designs, so they hand the job over to someone who does. PD needs to do the same.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I agree with you. PD does some things extremely well, like modelling cars and tracks. I see these as the sheet metal; the part you see and find beautiful. Other things, like coding, they need work in. The nuts and bolts. What I was trying to say is that PD needs to find someone with the ability to treat these nuts and bolts with the same scrutiny as PD does with their models. Just like how Pagani outsources production of their carbon fiber, engines, etc. Pagani don't know how to build engines to the same level as their designs, so they hand the job over to someone who does. PD needs to do the same.

Here, I found someone, forward this to Kaz:
http://www.glassegg.com/portfolio.php

 

[OriginalCheezIt]

I agree with you. PD does some things extremely well, like modelling cars and tracks. I see these as the sheet metal; the part you see and find beautiful. Other things, like coding, they need work in. The nuts and bolts. What I was trying to say is that PD needs to find someone with the ability to treat these nuts and bolts with the same scrutiny as PD does with their models. Just like how Pagani outsources production of their carbon fiber, engines, etc. Pagani don't know how to build engines to the same level as their designs, so they hand the job over to someone who does. PD needs to do the same.

Mentioning glassegg is almost as annoying and irrelevant as quoting VGChartz stats.

And besides that, I already said this: the modelling doesn't need outsourcing. Coding and sounds do, but PD does a good job of modelling.

 

[sparkytooth]

Here, I found someone, forward this to Kaz:
http://www.glassegg.com/portfolio.php

So those are the guys that build the cars for Forza and NFS.

 

[velly]

i am out, but it has nothing to do with standard cars...it's all the other BS we have had to put up with on GT6.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Mentioning glassegg is almost as annoying and irrelevant as quoting VGChartz stats.

And besides that, I already said this: the modelling doesn't need outsourcing. Coding and sounds do, but PD does a good job of modelling.

Did you ever go to the Suggestions Forum and see the lists of cars that GTP most wants? Farm them out to someone else and up the car count significantly. Want monthly car packs? Farm it out. The car DLC just doesn't cut it IMO. Outside of fantasy and 2 Senna cars we have next to nothing for 7 months. Outsourcing could easily fix that.

 

[Imari]

And besides that, I already said this: the modelling doesn't need outsourcing. Coding and sounds do, but PD does a good job of modelling.

Well, there's two parts to that. Quality and speed.

PD manage to produce some high quality models, for sure. They're not quick about it.

I wouldn't take them off the job completely, but they could sure use some assistance. You know they're struggling when they make a Huayra '11 and a Huayra '13.

 

[SimTourist]

Well, there's two parts to that. Quality and speed.

PD manage to produce some high quality models, for sure. They're not quick about it.

I wouldn't take them off the job completely, but they could sure use some assistance. You know they're struggling when they make a Huayra '11 and a Huayra '13.

In reality it takes everyone 6 months to model a car these days, PD, T10, outsourcers. Artists are artists, the location doesn't matter, they all use the same tools like 3DSMax, Maya and Zbrush, the process is roughly the same for everyone. Outsourcing companies just really got the knack for modelling cars, they do it for a living, they do it everyday without ever stopping it seems.

 

[RandomCarGuy17]

Did you ever go to the Suggestions Forum and see the lists of cars that GTP most wants? Farm them out to someone else and up the car count significantly. Want monthly car packs? Farm it out. The car DLC just doesn't cut it IMO. Outside of fantasy and 2 Senna cars we have next to nothing for 7 months. Outsourcing could easily fix that.

I agree here, I really wish that PD would stop there desire to keep things in-house and start outsourcing for content. If they done this long ago, maybe we would actually have 1200 cars in GT6 now instead of a bunch of crummy duplicates mixed into the list.

 

[LightningLord]

I agree here, I really wish that PD would stop there desire to keep things in-house and start outsourcing for content. If they done this long ago, maybe we would actually have 1200 cars in GT6 now instead of a bunch of crummy duplicates mixed into the list.

We need an option to just add them in a different menu. Like you know how when you buy a car you can change color, view gallery, and view info? Why not add a "year" function? You can select a specific year model of certain cars. That'd be nice.

 

[Zelalem]

PD needs to do this:

1. Game starts after the ps4 installed a small part of it.
2. cool sound effect.
3. Do you want to use standard cars? yes/no
4. yes: game starts with an amazing video as always after installing everything
5. no: new question. Do you want to install every standard car now or when someone in multiplayer uses it? yes/no

 

[Welsh-Fury]

For the record, when I voted I was still going to buy GT7 regardless of the standard models, it wasn't specifically for the standard model's appearance.

Losing, say, 600 standard cars means we'll also be losing 600 different physics models to drive with. Since this is a DRIVING SIMULATOR (or at least as close as we can get on a home counsel), I figure losing the versatility would do more harm then good.

 

[Imari]

In reality it takes everyone 6 months to model a car these days, PD, T10, outsourcers. Artists are artists, the location doesn't matter, they all use the same tools like 3DSMax, Maya and Zbrush, the process is roughly the same for everyone. Outsourcing companies just really got the knack for modelling cars, they do it for a living, they do it everyday without ever stopping it seems.

Oh, certainly. When I say that they're not quick I don't mean that any of the individual artists are slow, just that the rate that the company Polyphony Digital accumulates them is slow. Due to not having enough artists, presumably.

If they've only got 40 people working art, there's only so much that those 40 people can do in a year, even if they're sleeping under their desks, eating ramen and sobbing quietly.

Solution: Hire more people or outsource.

Losing, say, 600 standard cars means we'll also be losing 600 different physics models to drive with. Since this is a DRIVING SIMULATOR (or at least as close as we can get on a home counsel), I figure losing the versatility would do more harm then good.

GT has the most cars of any driving simulator on the market that I'm aware of, with the possible (and dubious) exception of rFactor.

It doesn't seem to do the other simulators any harm to have less than 1000 cars. In fact, iRacing, one of the most highly regarded consumer grade simulators makes a big deal out of NOT having very many cars. They don't have many, but each one is meticulously crafted and tested and refined to be as close to reality as possible, and then they keep refining it with every update.

While I can appreciate that some people enjoy a wide variety of cars with fair physical modelling, others prefer a small range with exceptional physical modelling. And neither choice particularly affects how good a driving simulator the games are.

Unless you want to get super anal, then the best driving simulator is the one with the best physical simulation.

 

[Samus]

Regarding outsourcing surely the simple point is anything done by someone else to PS4 detail will be better than the standards?

 

[SimTourist]

Actually when you think about it deeply, everything about games and things in the world is amazing. Especially manmade things. In relation to GT/FM/Anyotherracer it is pretty amazing how hundreds of people work on these games, each with their own life story and unique experiences that shaped them as people and is supposedly reflected in their work, but you can think about even deeper - each car in the games was originally designed and created by other groups of people, the tracks were designed and built by other groups of people, the systems these games run on were designed and built by another group of people, and so on and so on, you can go on about for eternity. There's just so much stuff that surrounds us that was created by humans it's overwhelming if you think about it too much. It's kind of amazing and depressing at the same time that humans are the only creatures that are capable of shaping the world and produce and invent things that weren't designed by nature. Sure, all the materials that we use come from earth, but they would remain buried for billions of years without any use. And to think that all of this including humans themselves literally evolved from stardust. It's amazing.