Kaz interview on Eurogamer - Standards are here to stay! Poll added

[NixxxoN]

I also think many do not understand how it is not Polyphony's intention to "fight" with Forza, or whatever other series. They simply do not care what others do, they do what they think it is best. And they are letting fans decide which game they like better. They are 100% aware there is not perfect game nor they want to create perfect game. They want - and they've always wanted - to create their vision of the driving game, that is in the same time driving simulation, RPG and virtual car ownership life simulation. I think it is not fair to expect that GT becomes Forza in the same way it is not fair to expect Forza to become GT (or that Arma becomes Rainbow Six or that Metro becomes COD)

Hell yeah, finally someone here gets it.

But what if "Gentleman AI" is something that PD actually envisioned as their goal for the AI? And left that fearsome opponents live only as humans in the online?

Polyphony moves in mysterious ways.

From a programmer perspective, I think creating a good AI is complicated. And that AI has to work for every single car and track in the game. Not an easy task at all.

 

[jimipitbull]

You're right, society does have many differing views. But you're not going to tell me that the Code of Hammurabi should be reinstated just because a select few support this over modern laws. The fact of the matter is that standard cars in a prestigious title like Gran Turismo only drags down its quality. No other game of my knowledge has done anything similar, and only a small minority supports the notion. All game reviews of GT5 that I've watched or read had some sort of negative comment regarding the standards and how they're inconsistent with the quality of the premiums.

Last time i looked, GT6 scores higher than forza 5 on metacritic, by both critics and users. How does that explain this notion of small minority?

 

[Johnnypenso]

Thats what you think I suppose. In this topic's poll, the option "I will buy regardless" wins by far.

57% said they would buy it regardless. 43% won't or are on the fence. If you are in danger of losing 43% of your customers you're doing something wrong. A 57% retention rate is nothing to brag about, especially when you consider how many of us discovered GT early on and stuck with the franchise over the long haul.

 

[1241Penguin]

Last time i looked, GT6 scores higher than forza 5 on metacritic, by both critics and users. How does that explain this notion of small minority?

1. When did I ever mention Forza in my post?

2. What do scores have to do with anything?

 

[synon]

In the OP, this is what Simon wrote:
Samus said
The definition of a standard car is simple, any 3D model that started life on the Playstation 2 games and subsequently included in GT5 and GT6, either as-is or touched up. So yes, that includes the worst of them and the best touched up, but still standard models.

Yes, the poll is about possibly having the worst current standard cars unchanged in GT7, but I don't think having updated standards would be considered as bad.

 

[NixxxoN]

So what makes you think they'll start worrying about them for GT7?

It would be too much, wouldnt it

Updated standards where said to come to GT6, from what I gather, not much was updated in terms of the standards. Sure, you got a few polished turds here and there, but the vast majority remained unedited. What is the exact count of the standards that where improved?

They did come but very few. I still hope for a standard update in GT6.

57% said they would buy it regardless. 43% won't or are on the fence. If you are in danger of losing 43% of your customers you're doing something wrong. A 57% retention rate is nothing to brag about, especially when you consider how many of us discovered GT early on and stuck with the franchise over the long haul.

I know, 100% retention would be better, but you know, customers come and go. You are forgetting the future GT customers that never bought any previous one.

 

[jimipitbull]

1. When did I ever mention Forza in my post?

2. What do scores have to do with anything?

It's a comparison between game with mixed assets, and one with only premium assets. The scores are an average of many reviews, which reflect the opinion of society a lot better than the gtp poll you keep referring to.

 

[1241Penguin]

Yes, the poll is about possibly having the worst current standard cars unchanged in GT7, but I don't think having updated standards would be considered as bad.

So standard cars either way, touched-up or not. Even when touched-up, they are simply inferior in quality compared to the premiums.

It would be too much, wouldnt it

Clearly not since they left models in GT6 like the one I posted, with blatant jaggies and poor textures in full view.

It's a comparison between game with mixed assets, and one with only premium assets. The scores are an average of many reviews, which reflect the opinion of society a lot better than the gtp poll you keep referring to.

I'm sorry, I didn't know that scores are a reflection of what people think about the consistency of the quality of the models and nothing else. You say the GTP poll is unreliable and yet using the Metacritic isn't a good reflection of the matters at hand now is it.

 

[JDmsz]

Sony did say it should be easier for the developers to make a game for ps4. So PD may create premium cars significantly faster.

 

[trustjab]

Have we seen a "GT7 standard car"?

 

[PaMu1337]

Sony did say it should be easier for the developers to make a game for ps4. So PD may create premium cars significantly faster.

The easier part is on the programming side. Creating 3D models still involves the same amount of work.

 

[Fusion]

Sony did say it should be easier for the developers to make a game for ps4. So PD may create premium cars significantly faster.

Modelling is modelling. Getting the finish of the cars to look right might be quicker, but that's not where most of the time is spent. The same goes for tracks although they may benefit a little more due to environmental effects (lighting etc) being something that is coded rather than just designed.

The PS4 being easier to code for has more to do with development of the graphics engine, sound engine, AI, physics and gameplay elements rather than assets.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I think you are making assumptions based on wrong foundations - but really.

You know why? Because I think how majority of above decisions you are attributing to "Kaz" are - in fact - decisions made by players of the game - you can call them "fans" if you want.

Why I am saying that?

Because statistics. Which statistics? Well, you know that "annoying" habit of GT5, that was connecting to server all the time? That had "Trophies" severely linked to in-game accomplishments? That statistics. And they are not lying. "Fans" are taking major "blame" in my opinion.

Look at this sad statistics: http://psnprofiles.com/trophies/460-Gran-Turismo-5

39% of players finished Amateur events (of 400.000 players registered with GT5 at that site)
25% won an S license (with SRF being enabled by default in GT5)
22% won Expert races
only 18% finished Top Gear track
12% made it through Nurburguring challenges
6% Endurances
Less than 1% for Platinum (Vettel challenges didn't help)

And I am deeply amazed how more people finished Vettel Challenges than Endurances.

Those statistics are from players registered on site, but with 400.000 players I think it is a pretty good pool - simply because I find those types of players more motivated than regular players. I can't even fathom how low are actual statistics for all 10+M owners of GT5.

I still remember the reasoning that convinced PD to make GT5 career structured as they did (and GT PSP as well), because they found out - by gargantous testing made during 2005-2007 by local SCE offices around the world - that the majority of GT4 players were absolutely stunned by the scope of career and difficulty spikes in GT4. Only the hardest of hardcore finished the career, the same what ultimately happened with GT5.

Now pair it with the functionality that allowed PD to track all statistics for player habits in GT5 and I can completely see what has influenced their decision for GT6 AI and other carrer-related decisions - which we seen as "problematic". Even the borked statistics from that PSNprofiles site is the showcase of habits of the GT mainstream players.

And same can be said for GT6 on that very site:http://psnprofiles.com/trophies/2305-Gran-Turismo-6

But notice the worrisome trends:
- only 51,000 of registered owners actually registered GT6 - 80% decline compared to GT5 (!) - talk about casual trends
- only 28% actually finished IntA races (despite such problematic AI)
- and OK, there is strong rise of Platinum (1000%), but now there is no Vettel X obstacle

But, in the overall percentage, GT6 has almost the double THE COMPLETION RATE compared to GT5 (41% > 24%). And 10x (ten fold) rise of Platinum Achievers among registered users. Is that success or failure?

So, what can we observe from that data?

Simply put, mainstream and casual players are simply not interested in structured career and complicated structures as seen in GT5 (remember, I am talking about challenges such as Nurburgring school, Top Gear, Vettel, Endurances, Grand Tour.. those that were challenge to more serious players - just look at the corresponding trophies).

That is the problem.

We can be vocal as much as we like, but it is not us that are shaping the commercial success of the GT series. It is an millions army of casuals that bitten the GT5 and evidently broke their teeth on it. We can blame our usual suspects from the "hardcore" perspective: AI, visual tearing, unconsisted framerate, 2D trees, standard cars, GT4 upscaled tracks, whatever we love to argue around here - but those statistics above are painting s slightly different picture maybe.

Could it be that GT became too hard and too complicated for the casuals with the GT5? Are those trophy data useless or very usable in the analysis of the trends related to Gran Turismo series?

To come back to your points, I agree with some of them:

• Resolution should have stayed in 1280x1080@60fps solid - 1440 horizontal bump allowed for clearer IQ but the loss of the CPU overhead and corresponding load of the AA and tesellation killed the framerate (3D is almost unplayable to me because of that - resolution is almost unbearable)
• Quality of game content was upped compared to GT5, so I think GT6 was move forward in relative perspective
• Sound was properly acknowledged as problem very recently and they are working on it, so accusing them for GT6 sound is somewhat not fair - they simply couldn't understand what was the problem there for a long time
• Moon car is something he wanted to do personally and it is part of his "thank you" for the NASA people and his inner child - let the man be, he loves his dreams and it is great
• Hw wanted the moon, he made the moon - it is his game
• Look above for probable logic behind endurances
• same for AI
• I agree, they did not delivered everything we all seen and heard in May 2013
• I also think many do not understand how it is not Polyphony's intention to "fight" with Forza, or whatever other series. They simply do not care what others do, they do what they think it is best. And they are letting fans decide which game they like better. They are 100% aware there is not perfect game nor they want to create perfect game. They want - and they've always wanted - to create their vision of the driving game, that is in the same time driving simulation, RPG and virtual car ownership life simulation. I think it is not fair to expect that GT becomes Forza in the same way it is not fair to expect Forza to become GT (or that Arma becomes Rainbow Six or that Metro becomes COD)

All above is simply my own opinion and foundation to provide another perspective.

I simply think how majority of decisions regarding GT series are not simple and plain as many think, but are based on long-observed data of users, players and statistics and trends - fitted into a formula that is still successful, despite probable decline.

New elements in the series - GT Academy, FIA Online Championship, VGT project, GPS Course Maker - all of those are probably made in order to maintain the interest of the players to the franchise. Driving genre overall is in the great decline since mid-2000 and only GT5: Prologue and Gran Turismo 5 managed to sell in 5+ million copies out of all simulation and simcade games I know in the past decade. Forza 3 was around that number, but since 2009 the Forza numbers are in strong decline as well.

And those are the trends.

We are important. Hard-core community is important. We create the "white noise". We create the buzz. But it is casual players that are keeping every game alive. I am happy with every small detail that is created to satisfy what we want. But I understand majority of other decisions, many of which I would like to be different - but somewhere outthere there is army of people doing researches in trends, consumer behavior and collected data and they are making their long-term decision based on that conclusions. Their professional life, success of their companies and such depends of that decisions.

I am not "defending" PD or playing "apologist". I would also like to have 1000 Premium cars, 400 tracks (I care for tracks 10X more I care for cars), GPS Course Maker, all multiplayer options I can think of (please, go to Q&A forum and vote for my proposals to see what are fields of the game I find important), flags, racing rules, B-Spec, Event Creator and whatnot. Eventually, one day, it will come. But until that day, I decided to play GT because for what it is now and to enjoy it - and no to hate it because for what it is not.

It is simple, really.

PS Yeah, and I agree about the logical proposition of "adjustable level of difficulty". One day PD will eventually decide to make it. Until that day I will have to manually adjust my handicap and drive against gentleman AI. But what if "Gentleman AI" is something that PD actually envisioned as their goal for the AI? And left that fearsome opponents live only as humans in the online?

Polyphony moves in mysterious ways.

Great post...definitely a different perspective on things:tup:👍

If your speculation is right, PD has opted to go the "easier is better" route and the game itself certainly bears that out. They've tightened up some of the TT times but TT participation is very low, less than 2% of the user base so I'm assuming they see that as the "hardcore" players and make them more challenging as a result. The base, offline game, seems to be patterned around the statistics you cited and is the easiest ever by far.

On the other hand, no one would accuse GT1-4 of being easy and yet they sold 47 million units. Perhaps the gaming market and typical customer has changed since then, we are more of a now, now, now society than ever and instant gratification is now a "normal" thing. Is it really what the typical fan wants or are the statistics only telling you what you want to hear? Completion rates are much higher in GT6 so you might conclude you're headed in the right direction. On the other hand, sales are much lower and perhaps more concentrated in the hands of GT die hards and the many casual fans skipped it because it was the same old same old. You could well be sampling a user base that tends toward the more hardcore GT fan and this could produce different results.

 

[CBH]

Makes perfect sense why you're using all those smileys. The only people that want standards on a next-gen game are the totally intoxicated.

Ok what about this, STANDARDS ARE HERE TO STAY.
👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍.

 

[IneedSchool]

• Moon car is something he wanted to do personally and it is part of his "thank you" for the NASA people and his inner child - let the man be, he loves his dreams and it is great
• [He] wanted the moon, he made the moon - it is his game

Polyphony moves in mysterious ways.

I'm given the impression that Kaz wants to make the GT series "unique" in some way. Such as the large amount of cars, Benz Patent-Motorwagen, Nike ONE, The X1 Cars, Moon buggy etc; and I might sound ridiculous but I notice that no racing game series has influenced Gran Turismo, but that Gran Turismo influenced other racing game series. When the first Gran Turismo came out, even though there were racing simulators out back in the late 90's, Gran Turismo was extremely popular. So popular that even after 16 years whenver someone says "Realistic driving game" the first thing that popped into people's minds would be Gran Turismo, and PD seem to be proud of that. So proud that they probably feel like they shouldn't care about what other developers are doing because they're trying to be like Gran Turismo. That probably stayed with PD for a long time and that could explain why they're behind the times in terms of A.I., sound, and features.

 

[stash]

If you notice the bad graphics on standard models you must be driving reeeeally slow!

 

[jimipitbull]

I'm sorry, I didn't know that scores are a reflection of what people think about the consistency of the quality of the models and nothing else. You say the GTP poll is unreliable and yet using the Metacritic isn't a good reflection of the matters at hand now is it.

It actually relates to your quality vs quantity propaganda.

No, society as a whole generally has its own views on matters. It's the view of the majority over the minority. That is why I think I'm right in saying that most people will view quality as being more important than quantity.

Perhaps in another couple hundred of years inconsistency like with the premium and standard cars would be the norm, but today? No.

 

[IneedSchool]

It actually relates to your quality vs quantity propaganda.

You accidentally double posted dude.

 

[Zelalem]

Simply put, mainstream and casual players are simply not interested in structured career and complicated structures as seen in GT5 (remember, I am talking about challenges such as Nurburgring school, Top Gear, Vettel, Endurances, Grand Tour.. those that were challenge to more serious players - just look at the corresponding trophies).

That is the problem.

Thanks for duing the research.

Could it be that GT became too hard and too complicated for the casuals with the GT5? Are those trophy data useless or very usable in the analysis of the trends related to Gran Turismo series?

If i interpret his decision to include standard cars correctly, he did it because he wants even a small amount of fans to race with their car. The numbers could be higher than those who did the endurance races in GT5, but my point is that, he decided to satisfy even a small percentage of people and used developers for making the standard cars look better in GT6. I can see why he did make the decision to use those mini endurance races, but at the same time don't understand, why he did model the stars correctly - sorry my english isn't good enough, but i guess you know what i mean - and didn't include the full endurance races as well. By all means, exclude them from the trophy list and career to make them optional, but make an extra event for them, with the option to choose 2,4 up to 24h, which gives you different rewards. They've got night, weather, boxing crew and so on, it is just an simple option they have to create.

I have the same opinion about standard cars. He has the give us the option to exclude them from your game experience, in my opinion.

Quality of game content was upped compared to GT5, so I think GT6 was move forward in relative perspective

I agree.

Sound was properly acknowledged as problem very recently and they are working on it, so accusing them for GT6 sound is somewhat not fair - they simply couldn't understand what was the problem there for a long time

No disrespect to them, but they had years to get the sound right and didn't. I would understand it, if we talk about an unsuccessful franchise, but we are talking about the most succesful racing game franchise in the world.

I also think many do not understand how it is not Polyphony's intention to "fight" with Forza, or whatever other series. They simply do not care what others do, they do what they think it is best. And they are letting fans decide which game they like better. They are 100% aware there is not perfect game nor they want to create perfect game. They want - and they've always wanted - to create their vision of the driving game, that is in the same time driving simulation, RPG and virtual car ownership life simulation. I think it is not fair to expect that GT becomes Forza in the same way it is not fair to expect Forza to become GT (or that Arma becomes Rainbow Six or that Metro becomes COD)

I agree with what you said and i don't want them to change what GT means to us or them. But sounds, physics, AI and graphics are the basics of an racing game and in two areas PD are far behind the competition. Of course, nobody is perfect, but they have the money to change it or at least improve it.

All above is simply my own opinion and foundation to provide another perspective.

Thanks for your very long post. I appreciate it. I would've write more, but english isn't my first language and it took long enough to write this post, without making to many mistakes.

PS Yeah, and I agree about the logical proposition of "adjustable level of difficulty". One day PD will eventually decide to make it. Until that day I will have to manually adjust my handicap and drive against gentleman AI. But what if "Gentleman AI" is something that PD actually envisioned as their goal for the AI? And left that fearsome opponents live only as humans in the online?

Polyphony moves in mysterious ways.

Every developer does, if we talk about AI difficulty. Options aren't an option anymore, i suppose

 

[1241Penguin]

It actually relates to your quality vs quantity propaganda.

No it doesn't. Try again after you actually make an attempt at addressing my comment:

I'm sorry, I didn't know that scores are a reflection of what people think about the consistency of the quality of the models and nothing else. You say the GTP poll is unreliable and yet using the Metacritic isn't a good reflection of the matters at hand now is it.

In case that was your attempt at addressing my post, then my condolences you aren't able to respond using logical arguments and have to resort to calling my post "propaganda", which incidentally happens to be one of the best cases of irony that I've seen in quite some time.

 

[jimipitbull]

No it doesn't. Try again after you actually make an attempt at addressing my comment:

In case that was your attempt at addressing my post, then my condolences you aren't able to respond using logical arguments and have to resort to calling my post "propaganda", which incidentally happens to be one of the best cases of irony that I've seen in quite some time.

Sales figures and review scores suggest people prefer quantity over quality. Unless you can provide evidence that supports your 'quality' argument?

 

[1241Penguin]

Sales figures and review scores suggest people prefer quantity over quality. Unless you can provide evidence that supports your 'quality' argument?

Sales figures and review scores suggest nothing regarding quantity over quality. Sales figures are potentially a good indicator of who did better at marketing, though.

Try again.

 

[Zelalem]

Sales figures and review scores suggest people prefer quantity over quality. Unless you can provide evidence that supports your 'quality' argument?

No offense, but you are jumping to conclusion here. A few examples, what the scores or sales could mean. Please note that i have included every option i could think of and don't agree with every option.

• More Fanboys voted for the game
• More haters did vote for the game you are comparing GT to
• on metacritics more PS or GT fans vote then others.
• They like the overall game experience more, but it doesn't mean that they like standard cars or the quantity approach
• They've voted the other game down, because they didn't like the microtransaction approach it had at the beginning. After the patch nobody should have a problem.
• PS3 had better sales than Xbox One, because it is an old console. This could unsuprisingly lead to better sales for GT, because it has a bigger audience to target, since it is on PS3.
• Those games you are reffering to are exclusive and many people don't own both consoles. This means they don't have an option. Well, that isn't entirerly true, because they could decide to don't buy the game at all or a new console.
• and so on.

Besides, it seems that GT6 has very bad sales figures compared to GT games.

 

[jimipitbull]

Sales figures and review scores suggest nothing regarding quantity over quality. It is potentially a good indicator of who did better at marketing, though.

Try again.

Well you made the claim that society prefers quality over quantity. Are you able to provide evidence to support that notion?

 

[1241Penguin]

Well you made the claim that society prefers quality over quantity. Are you able to provide evidence to support that notion?

The poll Simon created. And the fact that all reviews of GT5 that I'm aware of berated the standard models.

 

[TokoTurismo]

I think you guys keep on confusing over and over again the concept... I'm pretty sure standard cars in GT7/PS4 WILL NOT be like the standard ones in PS3, but obviously improved. Just worse than premium ones, and maybe with no interior. Just two different classes of quality.

How do you know this? What, GT6's standards? Please... Either way, standard cars are still going to ruin the quality of GT7, so no need to keep on defending them AND PD's choice of keeping them.

 

[SimTourist]

I'm given the impression that Kaz wants to make the GT series "unique" in some way. Such as the large amount of cars, Benz Patent-Motorwagen, Nike ONE, The X1 Cars, Moon buggy etc; and I might sound ridiculous but I notice that no racing game series has influenced Gran Turismo, but that Gran Turismo influenced other racing game series. When the first Gran Turismo came out, even though there were racing simulators out back in the late 90's, Gran Turismo was extremely popular. So popular that even after 16 years whenver someone says "Realistic driving game" the first thing that popped into people's minds would be Gran Turismo, and PD seem to be proud of that. So proud that they probably feel like they shouldn't care about what other developers are doing because they're trying to be like Gran Turismo. That probably stayed with PD for a long time and that could explain why they're behind the times in terms of A.I., sound, and features.

The influence of GT on other devs may have been apparent in the past, but I think now it's not the case. FM1 and 2 looked a lot like GT to an average user, but that's in the past. FM5 and GT6 came out at roughly the same time and playing both right now, I'm not seeing any influences of one on another. The two teams behind the series have gone 2 completely separate ways in pretty much every single aspect of the games.

 

[CBH]

Either way, standard cars are still going to ruin the quality of GT7,

No they will not ruin GT7.

And you my friend TokoTurismo you just have live with standard cars in the game.

 

[Fat Tyre]

No they will not ruin GT7.

And you my friend TokoTurismo you just have live with standard cars in the game.

They will ruin GT7 just like they have ruined GT 5 and 6. Standard cars is just one of the major problems of the game, GT7 will still have the same dumb A.I. and PS2 quality tracks... It is going to be a complete mess. They just want car count and say "ooh we have over a thousand cars!" I just went through the car list and it is shocking to see the number of duplicate cars, not to mention the 40 odd miatas and the like.

This time though we won't have to live with it, to get GT7 we will need a PS4 (don't know why now) a lot of people that is pissed off about this and many other broken promises will either stay on PS3 and stick to GT5/6, go to XBOXone (I am considering it at the moment), go to PC or just get a PS4 and avoid GT and stick with Pcars.

GT6 sales were disappointing, GT7 sales will be embarrassing.

 

[Gerarghini]

No they will not ruin GT7.

And you my friend TokoTurismo you just have live with standard cars in the game.

It will ruin the experience like they did in GT5 and 6, so if they're going to go that route well tough luck, Not to mention all the other things they have problems with.

And @TokoTurismo are ya gonna change your username or no?