Kaz interview on Eurogamer - Standards are here to stay! Poll added
- Thread starter Johnnypenso
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- 28,470
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- Johnnypenso
Which is the entire point if you read the post in context.
- 374
- Germany
They can't improve those standard cars forever in my opinion.
Talking about decisions. A few examples:
- Kaz did go for graphics and a higher resolution. He sacrificed a rock solid frame rate for it and with that the gameplay in my opinion.
- He did go for quantity and sacrificed the quality of the game for it.
- Instead of improving sounds, he focused on graphics.
- He made odd car decisions like the moon car.
- He let developers create the moon in an racing game. This happens, when a studio doesn't know what the fans want.
- He cut the endurance race events from GT5 and made endurance races for small kids out of it. Nobody asked for this, but that happens, when a studio doesn't listen to their fans
- rubber banding AI
- He promised stuff, we have yet to see.
- As an head of a studio, he should know by now that their team is to small and needs a lot of new staff to be up for the task. He doesn't react and includes standard cars again on PS4. He could've hired new staff to create a lot more premium cars and hire more talented people for the sound team, because it seems that this team responsable for the sounds is just a bunch of untalented developers.
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VolkswagenX
(Banned)
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I really don't understand how standards are somehow acceptable? But standards won't be the reason I wont buy GT7. I won't buy it for the same reason I did not buy 6. The bad gameplay! I heard some of the pro standard people say that they accept standards because something convinced them the gameplay is good. I don't see it, and the sales numbers show that a lot of people agree.
The poll doesn't show a thing compared to the rest of the potential game sales. Less sales means no more Gran Turismo in the future. Some may like the extra cars but in the end It's bad for the franchise. Why is this so hard to understand.
And the excuses for pd only haven 150 people working on it need to stop to! It's not like they need to double the workforce to increase premium count at a quicker rate. Maybe just double the team that works on cars? Increasing that by 50% would even help pd a lot.
80% of standard cars can go and that includes cars I really like, but I've played with these cars in gt4 and 5 ( don't own 6) so had enough time with them. The other 20% should only be included if they are full next gen premiums. Why even buy a ps4 if you think ps2 assets are acceptable...
The poll doesn't show a thing compared to the rest of the potential game sales. Less sales means no more Gran Turismo in the future. Some may like the extra cars but in the end It's bad for the franchise. Why is this so hard to understand.
And the excuses for pd only haven 150 people working on it need to stop to! It's not like they need to double the workforce to increase premium count at a quicker rate. Maybe just double the team that works on cars? Increasing that by 50% would even help pd a lot.
80% of standard cars can go and that includes cars I really like, but I've played with these cars in gt4 and 5 ( don't own 6) so had enough time with them. The other 20% should only be included if they are full next gen premiums. Why even buy a ps4 if you think ps2 assets are acceptable...
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- Johnnypenso
There's also outsourcing of car modeling, which for some reason is a dirty word around here. Part of the reason the Standards are so attractive, is because the premiums are not and aren't coming fast enough. If they were capable of churning out 200 cars a year instead of 40, they'd be able to churn out 50-75 standards>>premiums every year and after 2 or 3 years they'd have all the iconic cars covered and no one would care about the rest. But at 40 per year you can't afford to do that, which is the cost of stubbornly sticking to their small team, in the face of growing demand and changing market conditions.
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No, society as a whole generally has its own views on matters. It's the view of the majority over the minority. That is why I think I'm right in saying that most people will view quality as being more important than quantity.
Perhaps in another couple hundred of years inconsistency like with the premium and standard cars would be the norm, but today? No.
NixxxoN
(Banned)
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Thats what you think I suppose. In this topic's poll, the option "I will buy regardless" wins by far.
- 374
- Germany
He did hurt the overall quality of the game. Since i love math. Lets do this.
Premium cars on PS3: 10 points
a few good standard cars on PS3: 5 points
standard cars: 3
GT: 10+5+3=18 18/3=6
A game with only premium cars: 10/1=10
You don't understand the poll then. They will buy the game regardless, but they've never said they like or want standard cars.
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Tell me again how it's a reflection of whether people are actually happy with standard cars.
"Will you be happy with standard cars in a Playstation 4 Gran Turismo?"
77.8% voted "No."
- 10,956
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Ugh seeing those who will defend everything PD does, even standard cars, is really starting hurting my head thinking if this is reality...
All I'm going say is, is that PD will never learn anything at all if we just blindly accepted everything they do right or wrong, ESPECIALLY the wrong.
Wake up already.
Wake up already.
- 734
- Manchester
- stiggygonzalez
I don't mind standards staying as long as PD sort some of the textures on exteriors.
I understand that quality and consistency is important and 4-500 premiums or just cars,because of no standards
would feel like a tighter,more focused offering,but 1200+ cars is a selling point.
Really I would like to see other features like a livery editor and audio improvements,those features could refresh the series into the best driving game,so I will still want GT7 regardless of standards staying compared to other things.
I understand that quality and consistency is important and 4-500 premiums or just cars,because of no standards
would feel like a tighter,more focused offering,but 1200+ cars is a selling point.
Really I would like to see other features like a livery editor and audio improvements,those features could refresh the series into the best driving game,so I will still want GT7 regardless of standards staying compared to other things.
NixxxoN
(Banned)
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I think you guys keep on confusing over and over again the concept... I'm pretty sure standard cars in GT7/PS4 WILL NOT be like the standard ones in PS3, but obviously improved. Just worse than premium ones, and maybe with no interior. Just two different classes of quality.Ugh seeing those who will defend everything PD does, even standard cars, is really starting hurting my head thinking if this is reality...All I'm going say is, is that PD will never learn anything at all if we just blindly accepted everything they do right or wrong, ESPECIALLY the wrong.
Wake up already.
That link you penguin posted talks about the exact same standards which came from ps2, will not be the case surely...
- 2,973
- Curitiba
Standards on a PS4 game are an utter joke.
VolkswagenX
(Banned)
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It is the reason pd can do what they are doing. People who wil buy GT no matter how bad the quality are the reason PD won't move forward. The next GT needs to flop so that PD finally starts thinking about the direction the series needs to go in.Ugh seeing those who will defend everything PD does, even standard cars, is really starting hurting my head thinking if this is reality...All I'm going say is, is that PD will never learn anything at all if we just blindly accepted everything they do right or wrong, ESPECIALLY the wrong.
Wake up already.
- 296
The title is "Would you be happy with current standard cars in a PS4 Gran Turismo game?"
I suspect that the standards will continue to be modified.
- 14,436
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- Lma_robot
- lImaRobotl
Updated standards where said to come to GT6, from what I gather, not much was updated in terms of the standards. Sure, you got a few polished turds here and there, but the vast majority remained unedited. What is the exact count of the standards that where improved?
And going by their track record, surely they'll be doing the very minimum at upgrading these standards. Those resources are how old? If they were to be included, I would imagine not much would be changed, and that would be smart not to waste any more time with turds, and actually focus on something that might distract the public from said turds.
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- stiggygonzalez
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- jimipitbull
Society as a whole has many differing views. Plenty of people would be happy with GT7 on PS3, Lego gran turismo, or a re release of GT3 or GT4 on either PS3 or PS4. A lot of people would also like backwards compatibility on next gen consoles. Standard cars are not a deal breaker for the majority.
glassjaw
Premium
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- pioneerspine
- pioneerspine
Except it's not a lose-lose situation. Until GT5, gamers weren't conditioned to expect a rising number of cars with every release, especially for the first installment on a new console. I've said it before and I'll say it again: look at GT3. Look at the high scores and favorable reviews FM5 is getting, despite being comparatively light on cars. Yeah, in forums like these among hardcore fans, you'll find a slight backlash over a shorter car list. But outside of this bubble, in the real world, the wide majority of players will accept it - because they have in the past with many other racing games.
PD completely backed themselves into this corner, and they have nobody but themselves to blame. Through standard cars, they created an expectation of an increasing roster with every new release. But it's an expectation they can only meet if they keep reusing decade old assets.
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brian thompson
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This threads should be closed... I all about Forza vs GT and other game... And some users only do trolling 
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I think you are making assumptions based on wrong foundations - but really.
You know why? Because I think how majority of above decisions you are attributing to "Kaz" are - in fact - decisions made by players of the game - you can call them "fans" if you want.
Why I am saying that?
Because statistics. Which statistics? Well, you know that "annoying" habit of GT5, that was connecting to server all the time? That had "Trophies" severely linked to in-game accomplishments? That statistics. And they are not lying. "Fans" are taking major "blame" in my opinion.
Look at this sad statistics: http://psnprofiles.com/trophies/460-Gran-Turismo-5
39% of players finished Amateur events (of 400.000 players registered with GT5 at that site)
25% won an S license (with SRF being enabled by default in GT5)
22% won Expert races
only 18% finished Top Gear track
12% made it through Nurburguring challenges
6% Endurances
Less than 1% for Platinum (Vettel challenges didn't help)
And I am deeply amazed how more people finished Vettel Challenges than Endurances.
Those statistics are from players registered on site, but with 400.000 players I think it is a pretty good pool - simply because I find those types of players more motivated than regular players. I can't even fathom how low are actual statistics for all 10+M owners of GT5.
I still remember the reasoning that convinced PD to make GT5 career structured as they did (and GT PSP as well), because they found out - by gargantous testing made during 2005-2007 by local SCE offices around the world - that the majority of GT4 players were absolutely stunned by the scope of career and difficulty spikes in GT4. Only the hardest of hardcore finished the career, the same what ultimately happened with GT5.
Now pair it with the functionality that allowed PD to track all statistics for player habits in GT5 and I can completely see what has influenced their decision for GT6 AI and other carrer-related decisions - which we seen as "problematic". Even the borked statistics from that PSNprofiles site is the showcase of habits of the GT mainstream players.
And same can be said for GT6 on that very site:http://psnprofiles.com/trophies/2305-Gran-Turismo-6
But notice the worrisome trends:
- only 51,000 of registered owners actually registered GT6 - 80% decline compared to GT5 (!) - talk about casual trends
- only 28% actually finished IntA races (despite such problematic AI)
- and OK, there is strong rise of Platinum (1000%), but now there is no Vettel X obstacle
But, in the overall percentage, GT6 has almost the double THE COMPLETION RATE compared to GT5 (41% > 24%). And 10x (ten fold) rise of Platinum Achievers among registered users. Is that success or failure?
So, what can we observe from that data?
Simply put, mainstream and casual players are simply not interested in structured career and complicated structures as seen in GT5 (remember, I am talking about challenges such as Nurburgring school, Top Gear, Vettel, Endurances, Grand Tour.. those that were challenge to more serious players - just look at the corresponding trophies).
That is the problem.
We can be vocal as much as we like, but it is not us that are shaping the commercial success of the GT series. It is an millions army of casuals that bitten the GT5 and evidently broke their teeth on it. We can blame our usual suspects from the "hardcore" perspective: AI, visual tearing, unconsisted framerate, 2D trees, standard cars, GT4 upscaled tracks, whatever we love to argue around here - but those statistics above are painting s slightly different picture maybe.
Could it be that GT became too hard and too complicated for the casuals with the GT5? Are those trophy data useless or very usable in the analysis of the trends related to Gran Turismo series?
To come back to your points, I agree with some of them:
- Resolution should have stayed in 1280x1080@60fps solid - 1440 horizontal bump allowed for clearer IQ but the loss of the CPU overhead and corresponding load of the AA and tesellation killed the framerate (3D is almost unplayable to me because of that - resolution is almost unbearable)
- Quality of game content was upped compared to GT5, so I think GT6 was move forward in relative perspective
- Sound was properly acknowledged as problem very recently and they are working on it, so accusing them for GT6 sound is somewhat not fair - they simply couldn't understand what was the problem there for a long time
- Moon car is something he wanted to do personally and it is part of his "thank you" for the NASA people and his inner child - let the man be, he loves his dreams and it is great
- Hw wanted the moon, he made the moon - it is his game
- Look above for probable logic behind endurances
- same for AI
- I agree, they did not delivered everything we all seen and heard in May 2013
- I also think many do not understand how it is not Polyphony's intention to "fight" with Forza, or whatever other series. They simply do not care what others do, they do what they think it is best. And they are letting fans decide which game they like better. They are 100% aware there is not perfect game nor they want to create perfect game. They want - and they've always wanted - to create their vision of the driving game, that is in the same time driving simulation, RPG and virtual car ownership life simulation. I think it is not fair to expect that GT becomes Forza in the same way it is not fair to expect Forza to become GT (or that Arma becomes Rainbow Six or that Metro becomes COD)
I simply think how majority of decisions regarding GT series are not simple and plain as many think, but are based on long-observed data of users, players and statistics and trends - fitted into a formula that is still successful, despite probable decline.
New elements in the series - GT Academy, FIA Online Championship, VGT project, GPS Course Maker - all of those are probably made in order to maintain the interest of the players to the franchise. Driving genre overall is in the great decline since mid-2000 and only GT5: Prologue and Gran Turismo 5 managed to sell in 5+ million copies out of all simulation and simcade games I know in the past decade. Forza 3 was around that number, but since 2009 the Forza numbers are in strong decline as well.
And those are the trends.
We are important. Hard-core community is important. We create the "white noise". We create the buzz. But it is casual players that are keeping every game alive. I am happy with every small detail that is created to satisfy what we want. But I understand majority of other decisions, many of which I would like to be different - but somewhere outthere there is army of people doing researches in trends, consumer behavior and collected data and they are making their long-term decision based on that conclusions. Their professional life, success of their companies and such depends of that decisions.
I am not "defending" PD or playing "apologist". I would also like to have 1000 Premium cars, 400 tracks (I care for tracks 10X more I care for cars), GPS Course Maker, all multiplayer options I can think of (please, go to Q&A forum and vote for my proposals to see what are fields of the game I find important), flags, racing rules, B-Spec, Event Creator and whatnot. Eventually, one day, it will come. But until that day, I decided to play GT because for what it is now and to enjoy it - and no to hate it because for what it is not.
It is simple, really.
PS Yeah, and I agree about the logical proposition of "adjustable level of difficulty". One day PD will eventually decide to make it. Until that day I will have to manually adjust my handicap and drive against gentleman AI. But what if "Gentleman AI" is something that PD actually envisioned as their goal for the AI? And left that fearsome opponents live only as humans in the online?
Polyphony moves in mysterious ways.
- 2,973
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You're right, society does have many differing views. But you're not going to tell me that the Code of Hammurabi should be reinstated just because a select few support this over modern laws. The fact of the matter is that standard cars in a prestigious title like Gran Turismo only drags down its quality. No other game of my knowledge has done anything similar, and only a small minority supports the notion. All game reviews of GT5 that I've watched or read had some sort of negative comment regarding the standards and how they're inconsistent with the quality of the premiums.
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