Kaz's little metaverse experiment will kill Gran Turismo

HyperSpeeder

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Brazil
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If you read Kaz's letter to the community and you paid attention to the highlighted features in the trailers, you'll notice Kaz's ultimate end goal with this game is to replicate the experience of car ownership as in real life.

The balance of the prices in the game to reflect real world pricing is a crucial part of Kaz's vision for GT7. He probably believes that, by doing it, the rare cars will feel truly special. It's his idea of progression, his modern take on the classic rags to riches formula of Gran Turismo.

However, while I think his idea is not without merit in face of recent price increases (a Skyline GT-R R34 can't be as cheap as in older games), what he's doing will essentially kill the whole point of a Gran Turismo game.

I don't speak of the grind only. That sucks, but you can power through and eventually own the cars. The problem is that we buy those games to thrash those cars in ways we wouldn't do IRL. To live a fantasy. And Gran Turismo 7 does not allow us that.

Imagine you finally buy that McLaren F1 for 18.5 million. If you want to do any extensive modifications to it, like weight reduction or engine balance, you can't revert them unless you buy a new engine (or body). That's ok... until you realize the engine and the body in the Legends cars are absurdly expensive, often costing more to replace than the price of the car!

All of the new features Kaz added to GT7 would have been ok if this was a standard AAA game. I mean, Soulsborne games don't let you respec indefinitely. In The Witcher 3 you must buy a potion for 1,000 in order to respec Geralt. But GT7 is linked to real world pricing... and cars have never been more expensive IRL. The possible end of the ICE cars has driven the market mad, to the point any piece of junk with a naturally aspirated engine and a manual transmission is gaining value. And this will be accurately reflected in the game.

Racing games have always been about the dream. Gran Turismo itself was about it when it first came out. In GT7, Kaz wants us to wake up and face the harsh reality. But gaming is not about that. He completely missed the point. He wants to bridge a gap that should've been left alone. Because we should be allowed to dream.
 
Yeah, when I saw the Integra in the UCD selling for $62,500 I just laughed, knowing that in reality a clean Type R will get $65k all day no problem.

We've gone too far. It's time to pull back and take a deep breath, but I think it's too late.
 
It would be interesting to know what the average car value to average prize money ratio is when comparing each version of GT from GT1-GT7.
It seems to me that the price of cars has increased expediently however the prize money awarded doesn't appear to have changed.
If kaz wants to bring real world prices to cars then the might want to look at some real world prize money. Just going off inflation alone there should be a significant increase in prize money across the board.
 
Let it die, and PD will deserve it, as well as the loss of income that'd karmically doom them.
All of the new features Kaz added to GT7 would have been ok if this was a standard AAA game. I mean, Soulsborne games don't let you respec indefinitely. In The Witcher 3 you must buy a potion for 1,000 in order to respec Geralt. But GT7 is linked to real world pricing... and cars have never been more expensive IRL. The possible end of the ICE cars has driven the market mad, to the point any piece of junk with a naturally aspirated engine and a manual transmission is gaining value. And this will be accurately reflected in the game.
Not OK because GT7, or GT series in general had more problems than just microtransactions.

Terrible UI/UX, useless cars (again missing the point of living a dream), infuriating missions, repetitive and bland events, chase the rabbit format not actual racing, artificial scarcity in other way other than microtransactions like taking care of your car in GT Auto, patronizing license tests, them focusing on useless modes, etc. Those are also GT7's wacky parts and it has been in old GT games.
 
I think this is one of the better criticisms of GT so far without going into hysterical tier, honestly it's a little ridiculous to be forced to play into the hell used car market that investors are digging their grubby hands into for a quick turn over.

Sure, I don't want to be dumped with hundreds of rare cars for free for completing countless mundane tasks (Drive the car a mile! Good job, you're the best! Have this Divo and my children!) but this is just another extreme. Can't think of cars being this unobtainable back in the pre-PS3 era. The most commitment you had to put into for a few cars was in GT4's 24 hour races, and even then you could just have your driver to the race for you.

Honestly? I wouldn't be surprised if Kaz saw the Metaverse and such as an inspiration as he was one of the first to attempt GAAS back in 2006 with the idea of GTHD Classic and Premium.

EDIT: IIRC, there was the idea of a few cars in GTHD Classic would only be available in a limited quantity to buy as a piece of Downloadable Content. You could say Kazunori was way ahead of the curve with the stupidity of NFTs. https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/gran-turismo-hd-officially-canned-next-stop-is-gt5.86530/

  1. + Gran Turismo HD: Classic is what adopts the GT:HD playable demo at E3 and meant to showcase the online aspect. A race is done with about 20 cars. Apparently this version starts with no cars or courses. You download a car for 50 - 100 yen (0.43 - 0.85$) and a course for 200 - 500 yen (1.71 - 4.26$). Over 750 cars and 50 tracks are available for purchase. Users can define race events freely and can hold online race events by themselves.

    + Not all cars and courses are available on the release date, they are added monthly. Some models may be a limited release for 1000 units. New playing modes and tuning parts may be available via download. It's still undecided if they allow trade among users in fear of real money trade.
 
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I said this in another thread, but this game needs to make up its mind if its a racing sim or a car enthusiast sim.
It should be neither of those things, and it never was. It might be called the real driving simulator, but I'd always thought of it as a joke, or to make normies feel they are actually playing a sim.

Trying to make it into an E-Sports title with GTS was already too far out. This was supposed to be a return to the series roots. Buy sell, tune cars and race them in simcade style racing events. Of which the chase the rabbit style was very much a part of always, and a part I love. And as you progress through the game more serious events should be opened up with standing starts and qualifying and longer distances.
 
It's a cool idea executed poorly.

This should have been a part of a larger, single player adventure (this could even have online/multiplayer elements), not something which pervades through the entire game.

An independent campaign mode where you start with something like a stock Fiat 500, entering 'local races' to earn a little cash, enough to tune the car up a bit to enter higher paying races, tune it up a bit more... Until you earn enough to be able to sell the car and pick up something better. Rinse and repeat..

Imo that would have been cool, it's something I could sink hours into. The current implamentation of car values adds nothing to the game other than arbitrarily dictating how much grind is required.
 
The McLaren F1 has just appeared in the Legendary Dealership for 18mil.

Seriously, has anyone got 18mil right now to spend on it? (Unless you bought MTX)

Which almost makes its appearance pointless, because very very few people are going to buy it, so it might as well not exist. Which is a huge shame because it's a car many people would want to own and enjoy.

This is the problem right here. It's all very well having unicorn cars that are rare and cost alot of money but most people are never going to be able to afford them, are not going to buy MTX, and therefore never get to experience those cars that Kaz wants us to love and cherish in the first place...
 
No offence, but I don't care about living out some car owning fantasy and paying ridiculous prices so they reflect real world scarcity.

I just want to play a video game and have some fun.
I would like every car in the game to be accessible within a realistic time frame.
I don't want to dedicate 5 hours a day or have to spend more money on top of the 80+ quid I've already spent.

They are too many other games I could be playing, too many films I could be watching, books I could be reading, friends and family I could be meeting, to expect me to devote my life to owning a car in GT 7.

Realistically, I should be able to jump on for a few hours a week and be able to work towards a full garage within 6-8 months.

Yes, those who are able to devote that time will finish the content in days.

But, they can then, you know, enjoy racing those cars online or in well designed single player championships.

Seriously, am I missing something here or this a reasonable take?
 
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The McLaren F1 has just appeared in the Legendary Dealership for 18mil.

Seriously, has anyone got 18mil right now to spend on it? (Unless you bought MTX)

Which almost makes its appearance pointless, because very very few people are going to buy it, so it might as well not exist. Which is a huge shame because it's a car many people would want to own and enjoy.

This is the problem right here. It's all very well having unicorn cars that are rare and cost alot of money but most people are never going to be able to afford them, are not going to buy MTX, and therefore never get to experience those cars that Kaz wants us to love and cherish in the first place...
I firmly believe the McLaren was included here not to induce people to grind, or even buy it through microtransactions (it is prohibitively expensive even for these) it was included now as a goal - Kaz must believe that having a goal car - something as lofty as a McLaren F1, that will keep popping up in the dealership until in a year's time you can afford it and you've really earned it, making it truly special.

That's what I think anyway.
 
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Price the cars realistically, sure, but those cars irl are the playground of the extremely rich. In order to have fun buy those cars, you need to be extremely rich and I am not extremely rich irl - I'm just another poor gamer.
In the game, the fantasy is that we are able to earn the riches needed to buy those cars. Making me just as poor in the game as I am irl does not make GT7 the fun escapist fantasy I want as a gamer.
 
2 million credit for $19.99
so if you want to buy McLaren you must pay around 180 dollar
LOLZ that's funny
we will may pay $19.99 for decent credit (atleast 10 million) not 2 million
not fair
If you own GT7, you already paid for the McLaren as part of the purchase price. If you didn't why is its silhouette there in the garage? You shouldn't have to pay any further real money for it. You own it as part of the base game. PD trying to make you cough up more money is pure greed. If the McLaren was DLC, they could charge whatever they liked for it. But it isn't. You, me, all of us, have already paid enough for it.
 
I paid €70 for the game, I do not want to pay any more.
If you depart from there, there are two issues with the game:
  • the content at launch is too thin. If you are an enthusiast player, you go through it in a few weeks. After that it is a grind. I don't want to grind, I play for fun.
  • the in-game economy is too harsh for casual players. I don't mind myself, but I get it casual players are upset.

PD can fix those issues. Release more content quickly and increase the in-game rewards by 20-40%.

So here it is Kaz, free advice that will fix your pain right here and now.
 
Price the cars realistically, sure, but those cars irl are the playground of the extremely rich. In order to have fun buy those cars, you need to be extremely rich and I am not extremely rich irl - I'm just another poor gamer.
In the game, the fantasy is that we are able to earn the riches needed to buy those cars. Making me just as poor in the game as I am irl does not make GT7 the fun escapist fantasy I want as a gamer.
The extremely rich IRL are not limited to 20 million credits BTW. They have more than enough cushion to afford these cars and even pay more than they're worth, in auctions.

KJF
It's a cool idea executed poorly.

This should have been a part of a larger, single player adventure (this could even have online/multiplayer elements), not something which pervades through the entire game.

An independent campaign mode where you start with something like a stock Fiat 500, entering 'local races' to earn a little cash, enough to tune the car up a bit to enter higher paying races, tune it up a bit more... Until you earn enough to be able to sell the car and pick up something better. Rinse and repeat..

Imo that would have been cool, it's something I could sink hours into. The current implamentation of car values adds nothing to the game other than arbitrarily dictating how much grind is required.
I went in wanting to push that Fit to the limits, instead it was the same quick and unsatisfying progression you see in other games, all over again, within hours I already had like 10 cars and the Fit had become obsolete. I hope I win a B16 though, I'm not done with that car yet.

I firmly believe the McLaren was included here not to induce people to grind, or even buy it through microtransactions (it is prohibitively expensive even for these) it was included now as a goal - Kaz must believe that having a goal car - something as lofty as a McLaren F1, that will keep popping up in the dealership until in a year's time you can afford it and you've really earned it, making it truly special.

That's what I think anyway.
Indeed. It's probably the reason.

It costs almost as much as a minimum wage in my country.

I could buy it... At the same time, there's people on the streets eating from the trash. Not cool.

What I think is gonna happen, knowing both Sony and Kaz (not as well as some people here but still):

  • New events will be added to the game with higher payouts
  • MTX will not be removed, instead they'll give you more credits (5 million instead of 2 million)

But they're gonna have to address it somehow, and publicly. Kaz may have done so, but it didn't help the situation at all.
 
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Yeah, when I saw the Integra in the UCD selling for $62,500 I just laughed, knowing that in reality a clean Type R will get $65k all day no problem.

We've gone too far. It's time to pull back and take a deep breath, but I think it's too late.
It's the opposite of fun. In fact, it merely reminds me of how these cars' values will continue to outpace my income growth and I'm god damn airline pilot. Not being able to afford anything when you're a broke college student is one thing, but finally making it to your dream career and realizing you still can't afford anything is something else, and reflecting that depressing lack of progress within the game is, well, depressing.
 
I went in wanting to push that Fit to the limits, instead it was the same quick and unsatisfying progression you see in other games, all over again, within hours I already had like 10 cars and the Fit had become obsolete. I hope I win a B16 though, I'm not done with that car yet.
Me too! I really wanted to push a Prius, Prius C, or Fit into the stratosphere like I used to with the Demio on GT1 and 2, but unfortunately, all these little guys are hybrids and CVT, which locks out a majority of the mods, and sticks you with that damn hamster wheel transmission. I would LOVE a B or K swap option for the Fit, or 3SGE or GTE swaps for the Priuses. As it is, they seem destined for very specific momentum races where aero efficiency and power to weight is the name of the game. There is quite a bit of fun in that, but being able to really hot rod them should be an option, and it's shame there are these limits.

As far as the grinding and the cars, I totally agree with everyone when it comes to the shady pullback on prize money and the MTX ridiculousness... BUT, being able to access every single car shouldn't be normal yet. Look at any other huge title, and there are rare items in almost all of them that take a ton of grinding, searching and play time to find. Look at Oblivion for example, finding everything in that game can take YEARS.

I know one thing, making the McLaren so unbelievably expensive will make it a sight to see in a daily race! lol.
 
Funny that, you can't even auction your own cars. How sad is that.
This is another fundamentally cynical aspect of the game. If Kaz wants to make car pricing so realistic, why won't he let us sell our cars too? That would be completely realistic.
And if I was a real world driver winning as many races as I win in GT7, I would get sponsorship deals and pay way in excess of what the game is giving me. That's not at all realistic.
And in the real world, I could even rent some of these cars. If I wanted to have the experience of driving an F1, I wouldn't have to pay £18m for it - I could pay a few hundred kay (probably) and drive someone else's for a while.
Hell, in the real world I could get a better job - I could become an investment banker - and I could then afford to buy cars without having to earn prizes for races.
So making the one thing 'real' - the car prices - but having the whole rest of the game economy behave like a mechanism for squeezing MTX cash out of players, then claiming you're trying to make the experience seem 'real' is just pathetic.
 
The economy in Sport is just as wonky. At level 43 of 50, I've only won 1/3 the driver points required for level 50. That's ****** UP. Capitalized, bold, underlined and italics.
 
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I don’t think so. Car pricing somewhat reflecting reality is just an excuse for adding artificial longvity to the game, or the long-term goals the campaign fails to have.
 
I would have been more empathetic with that idea if there weren't any micro-transactions in the game. the timing seems just too obvious.

Also, of that is something PD really wants then they should've made another online career mode or something (like hardcore mode in Diablo) where players can choose the way they want to play and not force everyone to mindlessly grind.
 
Hell, in the real world I could get a better job - I could become an investment banker - and I could then afford to buy cars without having to earn prizes for races.
I mean, you can do that though? I have a feeling that you probably aren't qualified to get that kind of job. but sure. become an investment banker and spend all your salary on MTXs.

Problem solved, you now have the realism and immersion you are looking for.
 
Can't say I totally agree with the opinion.

Sure, the way LCD works, specially dropping a 18 million bomb just after two weeks of playing without big payout races yet just points to MXT, although even with MXT we were talking just shy of $200 in MXT to buy the McLaren. Same way with expiring invitations to by top tier models (worst, receiving an invitation for Porsche Carrera GT which you have a 1/3 chance to win in menu 39).

I think if they waited a couple of months and more content available, to start dropping multi million bombs in LCD and not in sucession, I mean, a couple of weeks after the McLaren we have a 11 million '52 Mercedes and another 9.5 million McLaren, which are more easily available because of the +40 million drop on Circuit Experience and 8 million on the Endurance Races on Missions, but this two drops are a one time only winnable stuff.

But in essence the pre-PS3 era GT games were about stretching as much as possible a bunch of cars all the way through the pyramid, not owning all the cars in the game. For sure upgrading and tuning were more (unrealistically?) effective than GT7. Gran Turismo 2 had over 600 cars but a garage limit of 100. For sure GT4 already had some fast money solutions and GT5 and GT6 also. GT Sport was all other system, as we didn't spend money on upgrade/tunes, as the parallel currency "mileage" was used to that and there was only that stupid +power - weight thing, instead of specific upgrades.

But we have so many things missing yet in GT7 that can't say they missed the point, more than half the game is missing. PD gave us 1 mil of pocket money last month the ease us a bit and promised a big overhaul at the beginning of April, to deliver just three high paying races, 8 1-hour endurance races 1 million prize one time only and the rewards adjusted to the difficulty of Circuit Experiences. Still no sign of career mode after beginner level races. Races like the three high paying ones should be some kind of Seasonal or something like that.
 
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