- 674
- M.I.A
Ummmmm
GTR2 by SimBin
FEATURES
- Realism has been redefined: absolutely authentic physics, dynamic day and weather changes as well as an impressive damage model
Release Date: Sep. 29, 2006
PD is doing nothing groundbreaking in this respect.
KY Confirms GT6 In Development Already
- Thread starter Robin
- 524 comments
- 35,934 views
Ummmmm
GTR2 by SimBin
FEATURES
Release Date: Sep. 29, 2006
PD is doing nothing groundbreaking in this respect.
- 5,351
- United States
- kudos00
GTR2 doesn't look as good. Not nearly as good.
A lot of us know other racing games have done this before.
A lot of us know other racing games have done this before.
- 7,830
- U S A
- Tetsumura
- Nigel Fox
Yeah, is there a video you can share? I'm really not impressed at all with any PC sim's graphic representation of anything yet. rFactor 2 could be a winner, though... yeah, it's a PC sim, so...
The company president happens to have professional racing experience.
And not only does Kaz race a lot of cars or do time trials in them, he apparently has an innate understanding of them. I've read more than once of how he can get into a car on a racing track, and within a few laps is close to the track record in that car.
And it's clear in his interviews that he really loves motorsports, and wants to convey that excitement in Gran Turismo as best he can. Before some of you go, "Well then why can't he?" tell me any game which has done a better job.
I dove head first into the PC sims when the PS3 release lingered and Toca and For... a few other games became dissatisfying. And I have to say that if Toca had better wheel implementation, I would have given all my PC sims away. The sims are very technically accurate, nice physics and all, but boring. Not very immersive, and I felt NO affiliation between myself and my "loaner car" at all. Plus bad graphics and a poor damage implementation hurt them. I stopped watching replays because they were... boring.
Honestly, the most involvement I feel in a racing game is with GT. I know this makes me sound like a complete and utter Gran Turismo fanboy, but so be it. A certain other game gives me a bit more connection with my car thanks to the fantastic modification system and the Livery Editor. But then the communication between me and the car on the track for whatever reasons are poor.
Senses are very individual, and those of you who feel more of a racing atmosphere in some chosen game have most likely created that in your minds, from either nostalgia or years of running around online races in a league with friends and competitors. Because I take games as they come at me, and I'm just not feeling it from sims.
I think about all anyone can do is run a short video segment of garage shots and cars running practice laps while the track, weather, cars and bots (if any) load - which would be a neat trick if you could do it without slowing down the loading process very much. And then include little details like flagmen and racing marshals, pace cars, tire barriers with tires scattering with strong collisions, and provide the most impeccable sounds possible in the race and in replays. A well done environment puts us in the location in a video game, and agree or not, I think GT5 does that best of all. Right now anyway.
I'd been wondering about this too. The thing is though, as you mentioned in the full post, PD already has a number of pro race car drivers on the hook as consultants and testers, and yes, more doesn't hurt. Fresh insight is never a bad thing. But Polyphony does have one advantage that you can't say about most racing game developers.
The company president happens to have professional racing experience.
And not only does Kaz race a lot of cars or do time trials in them, he apparently has an innate understanding of them. I've read more than once of how he can get into a car on a racing track, and within a few laps is close to the track record in that car.
And it's clear in his interviews that he really loves motorsports, and wants to convey that excitement in Gran Turismo as best he can. Before some of you go, "Well then why can't he?" tell me any game which has done a better job.
I dove head first into the PC sims when the PS3 release lingered and Toca and For... a few other games became dissatisfying. And I have to say that if Toca had better wheel implementation, I would have given all my PC sims away. The sims are very technically accurate, nice physics and all, but boring. Not very immersive, and I felt NO affiliation between myself and my "loaner car" at all. Plus bad graphics and a poor damage implementation hurt them. I stopped watching replays because they were... boring.
Honestly, the most involvement I feel in a racing game is with GT. I know this makes me sound like a complete and utter Gran Turismo fanboy, but so be it. A certain other game gives me a bit more connection with my car thanks to the fantastic modification system and the Livery Editor. But then the communication between me and the car on the track for whatever reasons are poor.
Senses are very individual, and those of you who feel more of a racing atmosphere in some chosen game have most likely created that in your minds, from either nostalgia or years of running around online races in a league with friends and competitors. Because I take games as they come at me, and I'm just not feeling it from sims.
I think about all anyone can do is run a short video segment of garage shots and cars running practice laps while the track, weather, cars and bots (if any) load - which would be a neat trick if you could do it without slowing down the loading process very much. And then include little details like flagmen and racing marshals, pace cars, tire barriers with tires scattering with strong collisions, and provide the most impeccable sounds possible in the race and in replays. A well done environment puts us in the location in a video game, and agree or not, I think GT5 does that best of all. Right now anyway.
- 1,732
- cuco33
Define irony... do you always make huge posts like this??
I for one would love an overhaul of the bulk of car sounds for GT6. There are a few that are great but in general they sound like crap. A 2ton car hitting a wall or a kart tapping into another kart sounds the same. The tire squeals are reminiscent of audio legacy coding and it's very hard to hear grip or slip. The bulk of cars sound like modified vacuum cleaners. I seriously hope that PD hires a new audio guy for GT6. Compared to other games, it really is that bad.
- 674
- M.I.A
It was released 5 years ago. why would you expect it to have 2010 graphics?
A lot of you might know games that have done this before. but a lot of you never posted any of them. While you're here though you can name some more..
Here's the graphical representation as requested by another poster.
Heck. It even had cockpit view and damage in 2006 lol
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- 7,830
- U S A
- Tetsumura
- Nigel Fox
Well, you certainly seem to have no problem with a certain other game, which has the player's car ALL sounding like race cars with no muffling to speak of, even stock VW Beetles, while the other cars sound like... wait for it...
Vacuum cleaners.
Selective criticism doesn't wash with me, sorry.
And lookit, sometimes I make it sound like GT5 is a 100% game which needs no improvement, but that just means you only remember all the warm fuzzy glowy stuff I post. Jeepers, even in this thread I've moped about the dumb XP system and paint shop/paint chip nonsense, lack of Race Mods and a decent basic Livery Painter, graphic issues, and all kinds of things. Reading comprehension and memory issues?
But please, show a little comprehension here. GT5 does a LOT of things right, things that no other game does. If it was utter crap, I'd be racing Prologue and that other game. I know "utter crap" is often in the racing gloves of the beholder, but if that's what GT5 is to some of you, then we really have nothing to say to each other but Merry Christmas and have a nice time with whatever game makes you warm and fuzzy.
Now I agree with you that GT's sounds could be better, but you're talking out of both sides of your mouth if you make it sound like GT5 has the same old sounds across the board. If you hate them all, fine, that's your opinion. But try and be a little even handed. Frankly, I wish these "legacy" tire sounds were a little louder, but they give me a much better sense of how close I'm getting to the edge of grip than a certain other game in which they're utterly silent until you are losing grip. GT5's aren't that much different from those in GTR Evo. This is why I've just about given up on that other game, because the communication between me and my car is very poor, even if others have no trouble at all. The game has to serve my needs and feed my senses well, or it's mostly a guessing game of how I'm doing on turns. Which may be awesome sauce to you, but is not fun for me.
And Motarded, I do happen to own the GTR games. Maybe they give you some kind of epiphany or something, but their representation of anything other than cars going around a track surface is really pretty cruddy. If you want to crow about anything, you might want to check out the WIP stuff in rFactor 2, which looks very nice. GTR3 is still in the murky depths of Nowhereland.
- 8,725
Erm, racing games have had both cockpit view and damage for about as long as racing games have been around, so it's all moot.
- 7,830
- U S A
- Tetsumura
- Nigel Fox
It is moot to an extent. And I shouldn't just be glib and sat that the GTRs are cruddy games. They've had a few nice updates to keep them from looking too moldy. But that video Motarded posted is yet another example of selective glee that so many exhibit around here. It's kind of hard to watch it because the car sounds are poor, and the bot behavior isn't any better than what we have in GT5, and the graphics aren't all that marvelous.
If the point is 40 cars around Batthurst, sure, PC sims can put you on race tracks from around the world in big fields with an average PC these days. But... ya know, I've been there done that, and they quickly grow stale to me. The physics aren't that much better, or the sounds, or the bot A.I., and the graphics are generally lackluster, like something PS2 in HD. The damage is generally decent, but I'm just not that into a damage model that isn't awesome. And I feel like I'm a stand-in racer in someone else's car, and have no sense of belonging to anything in the game. And what's worst of all, a very small selection of cars, all race cars. There are very few racing games which offer things in the 200-300hp range that allow you to relax, catch your breath, and just race for the sheer fun of it at a less mind rending pace. The only ones I have like that are rFactor and Live For Speed, and they just don't interest me in the least right now. And I think rFactor is a bad game, to be honest.
So anyhow, gonna eat and then mod up some hatchbacks in GT5, slap some paint and rear foils on them, Standards no less, and have a ball. You guys can race whatever you like, and the world will be a place of bliss for all.
If the point is 40 cars around Batthurst, sure, PC sims can put you on race tracks from around the world in big fields with an average PC these days. But... ya know, I've been there done that, and they quickly grow stale to me. The physics aren't that much better, or the sounds, or the bot A.I., and the graphics are generally lackluster, like something PS2 in HD. The damage is generally decent, but I'm just not that into a damage model that isn't awesome. And I feel like I'm a stand-in racer in someone else's car, and have no sense of belonging to anything in the game. And what's worst of all, a very small selection of cars, all race cars. There are very few racing games which offer things in the 200-300hp range that allow you to relax, catch your breath, and just race for the sheer fun of it at a less mind rending pace. The only ones I have like that are rFactor and Live For Speed, and they just don't interest me in the least right now. And I think rFactor is a bad game, to be honest.
So anyhow, gonna eat and then mod up some hatchbacks in GT5, slap some paint and rear foils on them, Standards no less, and have a ball. You guys can race whatever you like, and the world will be a place of bliss for all.
vandaliser
(Banned)
- 345
Basically GT has that special feeling that PC sims lack. Can't be explained but it's there.
- 674
- M.I.A
So why then did you ask me this....?
Epihhany? I saw a question, I answered it. But what makes GT5 any better in that respect? It's a racing game. That's what they are supposed to do. Again the game (GTR2) is 5 years old, GT4's physics were crap with it's odd 'ABS with out having ABS active'. But the game was great for in certain aspects it's day just like GTR2 was in the aspects it excelled in.
Seen it. Yes it looks great, it's tyre model will make GT5's look stupid. Feel free to debate that if you like
That kind of comment reminds me of the months before GT5 was released. You know, the "will GT5 ever get here?" & "Why no release date?" comments. Go check out the retro GTP news articles and the comments below them.
Apparently news on GTR3 will be here before Christmas. And like PD, Simbin have been releasing other titles in-between. many in fact. Race on, GTR-evo, Race room etc.
Griffith500
Not the GT series though. It barely had either. Some would argue it that it even has a good damage system now.
Tenacious D
Again, you are comparing an old game to a new one, you should be comparing it to GT4 which exhibits all the traits above that you've just listed. Car sound, A.I, Graphics etc. Funny though that the GT5 AI isn't any better despite being a 2010 game by your own admission.
To make this clear the only reason I brought up GTR2 is because I saw this...
vandaliser
You guys were ones bringing graphics, sounds, gameplay dynamics and a bunch of other nonsense comparing an old game to a new one where obviously it wouldn't match up or even stand a chance. You guys here sure do get defensive over Kaz, PD and GT.
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- 1,335
- WA
- TEAM-SWD-daus26
What GT5 has done may not be revolutionary to the world, but it is revolutionary in their own rights due to what it can do with the provided RAM the PS3 has. Just a thought. And to be fair, the PS3 is also technically a piece of technology made in 2006. But really, we shouldn't really be comparing a PC game with a console game.
- 674
- M.I.A
👍
Finally. Sense!
I was going to put that exact remark my original post on the subject.
And you're right we shouldn't compare PC to PS3. But as a benchmark, my old laptop specs are
Intel Core2 CPU @ 1.73GHz (Dual core)
2038MB RAM (Shared with the integrated graphics card)
Not sure how that compares to the dedicated games console that is the PS3, but...
with those I would get about 15fps around most of a track with all GTR2 in-game graphics settings on low. So what PD has done is create an extremely well optimized game (screen tearing and slight FPS hiccups aside) with GT5. For that I give them credit.
- 621
I think the whole confrontation you two are having is nonsense. Comparing old verses new and PC vs Console as it is completely different worlds and times. In an effort to help offtrack this....the entire time I was reading this interview it made me think of interviews from 6+ months ago. I didnt see any comment, or recent comments of any standard update. Seems as if PD kinda pulled us in a different direction with the DLC to make us forget about it. I personally do not think this will get done even though it was confirmed "at some point". As Kaz said, "it was a lot of work"...referring to the standard interiors. Really?...and we are expecting full updates. LOL
- 674
- M.I.A
So do I, but my first post at the very top of the page was relevant in the context it was made. But then people started going on about graphics etc.
About the standards... I estimate it would take PD about another five years or more to upgrade all those standards if they were to do them individually at the rate they went for GT5 premiums, and by individually I mean track down each of the cars and model the interiors not just cut and paste the similar interiors from similar cars. I think they would either need to expand the team or cut corners to do it any quicker.
If GT6 were to release after that rough time frame then you may see it done, but otherwise you'll either see a lot of cars cut or the shortcuts. And that's just if the insides get a makeover, lets be honest, do we really think Kaz's "Visions of perfection" will allow him to have premium interiors and only touched-up standard exteriors?
- 7,830
- U S A
- Tetsumura
- Nigel Fox
It should be fine to debate Gran Turismo in respect to ANY game, really, either console or PC, including a cert5ain competitor. Unfortunately a tiny number of people here get extremely buttsore if you bring it up, or its maker. But generally, when you see something you like, admire or want in another game, it should be allowed to be presented, debated and discussed in how it would further Gran Turismo as a series, especially GT6. And that certain other game isn't a bad game, it's a good game, as much as some of you might be surprised to see me say it. Motarded, don't snort pop out your nose.
I like discussing these other games because, as much as certain people put words in our mouths around here, very few people think Gran Turismo is a perfect series. Some think it's the best racing game out now, but how is that any different from fans of any other game? We find things we like and glom onto them, and sad but true, none are perfect, not even iRenting. All of them could stand to lift pages of features from each other.
As much as I repeat how stale I find PC sims in general, they clearly get a lot of things right, have millions of fans who look to their chosen game to define the genre, and the way they capture the various factors of racing are really nice. And I will have to say that, mods aside, the GTR series is about the pinnacle of the PC sim genre overall. iRacing apparently has the best overall physics, and a MUCH better car selection, but man, do you have to pay for the privilege.
I WOULD LOVE IT if GT6 had a simulation section devoted to real world motorsports of various types and leagues, the way the sims do, including all the rules and regs, and the car dynamics of Live For Speed and a certain competitor. Some sim fans groan at the idea, sure that PD can't tie their shoes right in this regard. Others insist that something so finicky, difficult and technical has no place in a Gran Turismo game. I say give it a shot. It can't be any worse than Shift, and there would always be the Arcade and GT Modes for those who want to stick to old school Gran Turismo. And every racing game, even sims, have difficulty levels and assists to make it easier on the kids and newbs. I think throwing anything and everything on the table should be open game for discussion regards GT6, and beyond.
But when these guys come around and say, "Those are some sucky sounds in GT5, and the bots are brain dead, and we have weather and time of day too," I can only shake my head. Especially when they post videos of cars with sucky sounds, bots that brake like they have epilepsy and clog chicanes like six year olds are at the wheel, have graphics that at the very least look last gen, and have environment effects that are even worse.
It can be argued that GTR2 is the best racing game out today, the pinnacle of realism in both physics and bot behavior. I would concur, but I'd much rather race against GT5's bots, and look at GT5's graphics and environmental effects - which blow GTR's off the screen in my estimation, even with the flaws, and listen to GT5's car sounds, and drive on those tires. And I sure as heck can't buy and own a thousand cars in a PC sim. I can't buy a Peugeot 301 street car in any sim, mod it up, and find myself in a race against Ferraris, Zondas, Ford GTs and Lamborghinis, and have a blast fighting them. I can't even own ONE car in a sim. It's always a loaner from some racing team.
And the tire model is really pretty darn good. Right now, it can be argued that the tire model in either Live For Speed or a certain competing game are the best in racing games currently, or in iRacing. There's no way in heck I'm going to pay the admission fee to get into and rent iRacing, I can't afford it for one thing, so I can't comment on that. But against Live For Speed's tire model, which I personally think is better than the unnamed competitor, I have to say that GT5's is remarkably similar. Yes, LFS's is better, but not markedly better, and GT5 is a heck of a better game. Sure, LFS and a certain competitor have better car dynamics. But it's so close, that the rest of the package more than makes up for any shortcomings. To me. Others have other criteria, they see things differently, and that's fine. But this isn't a matter of right choice or bad decision, this is a matter of taste and preference, and there is no right or wrong in that. Just having fun.
I like discussing these other games because, as much as certain people put words in our mouths around here, very few people think Gran Turismo is a perfect series. Some think it's the best racing game out now, but how is that any different from fans of any other game? We find things we like and glom onto them, and sad but true, none are perfect, not even iRenting. All of them could stand to lift pages of features from each other.
As much as I repeat how stale I find PC sims in general, they clearly get a lot of things right, have millions of fans who look to their chosen game to define the genre, and the way they capture the various factors of racing are really nice. And I will have to say that, mods aside, the GTR series is about the pinnacle of the PC sim genre overall. iRacing apparently has the best overall physics, and a MUCH better car selection, but man, do you have to pay for the privilege.
I WOULD LOVE IT if GT6 had a simulation section devoted to real world motorsports of various types and leagues, the way the sims do, including all the rules and regs, and the car dynamics of Live For Speed and a certain competitor. Some sim fans groan at the idea, sure that PD can't tie their shoes right in this regard. Others insist that something so finicky, difficult and technical has no place in a Gran Turismo game. I say give it a shot. It can't be any worse than Shift, and there would always be the Arcade and GT Modes for those who want to stick to old school Gran Turismo. And every racing game, even sims, have difficulty levels and assists to make it easier on the kids and newbs. I think throwing anything and everything on the table should be open game for discussion regards GT6, and beyond.
I guess it escaped you, but you and a number of people talk down GT5 for poor sounds, bad A.I. and graphic issues. Now it can be argued that the point of a PC sim isn't about perfect audio and photo-real graphics, or with damage that's as amazing as in Grid or Forza, and I'm fine with that. The point of a sim is to realistically replicate the physics and dynamics of professional racing in certain leagues, as is reasonably possible considering the technology of the time. And for those that live for the current-best physics in a racing game and the chance to watch how their performance stacks up on a points board, that's cool.
But when these guys come around and say, "Those are some sucky sounds in GT5, and the bots are brain dead, and we have weather and time of day too," I can only shake my head. Especially when they post videos of cars with sucky sounds, bots that brake like they have epilepsy and clog chicanes like six year olds are at the wheel, have graphics that at the very least look last gen, and have environment effects that are even worse.
It can be argued that GTR2 is the best racing game out today, the pinnacle of realism in both physics and bot behavior. I would concur, but I'd much rather race against GT5's bots, and look at GT5's graphics and environmental effects - which blow GTR's off the screen in my estimation, even with the flaws, and listen to GT5's car sounds, and drive on those tires. And I sure as heck can't buy and own a thousand cars in a PC sim. I can't buy a Peugeot 301 street car in any sim, mod it up, and find myself in a race against Ferraris, Zondas, Ford GTs and Lamborghinis, and have a blast fighting them. I can't even own ONE car in a sim. It's always a loaner from some racing team.
And the tire model is really pretty darn good. Right now, it can be argued that the tire model in either Live For Speed or a certain competing game are the best in racing games currently, or in iRacing. There's no way in heck I'm going to pay the admission fee to get into and rent iRacing, I can't afford it for one thing, so I can't comment on that. But against Live For Speed's tire model, which I personally think is better than the unnamed competitor, I have to say that GT5's is remarkably similar. Yes, LFS's is better, but not markedly better, and GT5 is a heck of a better game. Sure, LFS and a certain competitor have better car dynamics. But it's so close, that the rest of the package more than makes up for any shortcomings. To me. Others have other criteria, they see things differently, and that's fine. But this isn't a matter of right choice or bad decision, this is a matter of taste and preference, and there is no right or wrong in that. Just having fun.
- 674
- M.I.A
I guess it escaped you, but you and a number of people talk down GT5 for poor sounds, bad A.I. and graphic issues.
Now your just making things up. When did I talk anything down about GT5 before you made that comment? and even after the comment I still didn't. I'm not regular enough around here for you to notice me around here, so you must have just tar everyone with the same brush? Posts so long but short memory? lol
As for the rest of your post, even though it seems aimed at me I have no idea why or even have the inclination to respond.
- 7,830
- U S A
- Tetsumura
- Nigel Fox
Okay, then I stand corrected. Fair enough.
- 563
GTR2 looks crap just like most PC sims. GT Legends looks good and Project cars made by SMS hopefully won't be rubbish like NFS shift games. Looks pretty awesome though on gaming rig, will support DX 11. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECOHVTR9Iiw
rfactor2 is taking ages. It will not look good like project cars but weather and tyre modelling should be nice. I reckon it will be disappointment just like GT5 is to some for the time it is taking GTR3 is also in dev and some details will be revealed before new year I think. Having said that all these are on PC and mainly online sims.
GT5 is only on PS3 and SP mode is a big factor too, there is no sim to match it on consoles. I hope they really pull out something really good for GT6 on PS3 or GT6P, whatever it is
rfactor2 is taking ages. It will not look good like project cars but weather and tyre modelling should be nice. I reckon it will be disappointment just like GT5 is to some for the time it is taking
GTR3 is also in dev and some details will be revealed before new year I think. Having said that all these are on PC and mainly online sims.GT5 is only on PS3 and SP mode is a big factor too, there is no sim to match it on consoles. I hope they really pull out something really good for GT6 on PS3 or GT6P, whatever it is
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- 10,403
- GTP_Spag69
- spagetti69
F1 has the better weather effects at the moment of any racer IMHO.
- 1,732
- cuco33
Well, you certainly seem to have no problem with a certain other game, which has the player's car ALL sounding like race cars with no muffling to speak of, even stock VW Beetles, while the other cars sound like... wait for it...
Vacuum cleaners.
Selective criticism doesn't wash with me, sorry.
And lookit, sometimes I make it sound like GT5 is a 100% game which needs no improvement, but that just means you only remember all the warm fuzzy glowy stuff I post. Jeepers, even in this thread I've moped about the dumb XP system and paint shop/paint chip nonsense, lack of Race Mods and a decent basic Livery Painter, graphic issues, and all kinds of things. Reading comprehension and memory issues?
But please, show a little comprehension here. GT5 does a LOT of things right, things that no other game does. If it was utter crap, I'd be racing Prologue and that other game. I know "utter crap" is often in the racing gloves of the beholder, but if that's what GT5 is to some of you, then we really have nothing to say to each other but Merry Christmas and have a nice time with whatever game makes you warm and fuzzy.
Now I agree with you that GT's sounds could be better, but you're talking out of both sides of your mouth if you make it sound like GT5 has the same old sounds across the board. If you hate them all, fine, that's your opinion. But try and be a little even handed. Frankly, I wish these "legacy" tire sounds were a little louder, but they give me a much better sense of how close I'm getting to the edge of grip than a certain other game in which they're utterly silent until you are losing grip. GT5's aren't that much different from those in GTR Evo. This is why I've just about given up on that other game, because the communication between me and my car is very poor, even if others have no trouble at all. The game has to serve my needs and feed my senses well, or it's mostly a guessing game of how I'm doing on turns. Which may be awesome sauce to you, but is not fun for me.
And Motarded, I do happen to own the GTR games. Maybe they give you some kind of epiphany or something, but their representation of anything other than cars going around a track surface is really pretty cruddy. If you want to crow about anything, you might want to check out the WIP stuff in rFactor 2, which looks very nice. GTR3 is still in the murky depths of Nowhereland.
I'm a HUGE VW and Audi fan (have only owned VW/Audi cars and have modified them all, in a VW/Audi/euro club and go to various car events/shows/meets and races all year long) and I'll tell you that even with race exhausts that the VR6 equipped VWs still sound like VR6 equipped VWs w/race exausts, and a Beetle with a race exhaust does not have the same VR6 snarl that the VR is famous for. The Beetle has a 1.8L 20valve turbo engine in it, and sounds like one. When you slap a race exhaust on it, it sounds like a 1.8t w/race exhaust. The same holds true for many other cars. VTEC equipped Hondas sound like VTEC motors, in stock and tuned form. Not every single audio in Forza 4, *cough* 'the other game, is perfect but it is leaps and bounds better than GT5's. Tire sounds in Forza are progressive, and they sound different when you start to push the car to the edge of grip, to starting to slip to completely no grip at all, NOT what you implied at all. I start to wonder if you ever 'played the other game' at all..
I've played PC sims and literally just got off of GTR2 doing some laps in an M3 GTR around Monza, Imola and Spa and this 'archaic' game sounds better than the bulk of sounds that GT5 has. You know TD, criticism will always be around. No need to constantly defend every little nuance of GT and go to great lengths explaining whatever you try aside from just saying 'I'm a big GT fan, and I don't agree'. I made the comment about wanting GT6 to get an audio overhaul because the bulk of sounds in GT5 (and GT games in general) are crap in comparison to other games across all platforms. Audio for me is huge and I only get satisfied on that realm just a handful of times in GT5 unlike many other games across all platforms. There's a few gems here and there, but in general audio is not GT5's highlight by any means.
GT5 does do a lot of things right, but it also does a lot of things wrong and that's due to PD's mismanagement of resources and proof is how GT5 was launched with all the patches that brought it up to speed on how the game resides today. I still play GT5 but my console racing fix is mostly on Forza 4 because to me it's just a better game overall. I hope PD learned their lesson for GT6, and I hope part of this lesson is NO PROLOGUE NONSENSE nor disparity of car content (and to an extent, track quality as well). Keep it consistent throughout the game and the majority of complaints go away. That simple.
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
Well I think that the uses of Kaz, racing drivers and the GT academy (now race drivers) will help get us a better feel next game verse those before. Another thing that might help and get to the fans would be more groups willing to sponsor gt events or better yet get a door open to more Gran Touring/Turismo like race cars hopefully from ILMC, LMS, GT3, GT4, as well as the WEC. One can hope.
@cuco33 Regarding the engine sounds, it probably has something to do with the hardware. When you look at the trailers of the sounds, it does sounds good. But when you play the game, most of your cars sounds distorted. If that's the case, then I would rather for PD to have GT6 out on a PS4. If GT6 was on the ps3, I don't think there would be any graphical improvements like better rain drops, frame rate, physics, jaggies, blocky shadows, and sounds but a better game put together but....that's it. And I'm sure graphical issues because of hardware alone take some points off by the critics. Why do I want to see the same issues in GT6 to be carried over the same hardware? I'm just assuming that GT6 on the ps3 with no graphical improvements/fixes made, it would still have a lower rating than FM4 if it's released on the ps3, even if GT6 game has livery and customization.
- 2,822
- Espoo
- GTP_Raitzi
It was released 5 years ago. why would you expect it to have 2010 graphics?
PS3 was released 5 years ago, still it manages to produce 2010 graphics
- 13,918
- Adelaide
- Neomone
- 7,830
- U S A
- Tetsumura
- Nigel Fox
Yes, that's all I said. I suppose, or at least that's all you'll read.
Anyway, it's obvious that we have entirely different requirements, standards, perceptions... everything in regard to this genre, and will stand by our statements. So I guess this dialog has pretty much reached resolution on both sides. So, Merry Christmas and enjoy your games.
On GT6 though, further massive progress depends on whether Kaz thinks he can get as close to realism as possible, what that would mean in game software terms, and which Playstation hardware can accomplish this. The two of us clearly have a big difference of opinion on how well a PC sim like GTR2 can put us there on the track and in that virtual car. And I can assure you that if GT6 is more like GTR2 than GT5, though a bit prettier, about the only ones who would like that around here are you and a few PC sim diehards. In fact, Gran Turismo and that other game have evidently raised the graphics bar SO high that no PC racer of any consequence can afford to keep looking like an HD PS2 game. Or have engine sounds that munchkinize as they raise in pitch from just a couple of samples.
Gran Turismo and its main competitor can never drop in audio or graphic quality, with the possible exception of Standard level or sub-Premium level tracks in GT6, which I think only a few would really grouch over. Both of these games have far exceeded what I've experienced in PC racing sims in certain factors. I think without too much trouble, they can go the rest of the way, or most of it, with the possible exception of damage. Which the only PC racers with good damage modeling seem to come from Codemasters, though the rest of the games don't measure up quite as far, with the possible exception of the F1 game which I'm just not interested in.
The PS3 can only go so far in making Gran Turismo more real. But I have to say that even though you accept the level of quality of current PC sims, the world in general does not. That other game outsells most PC racers, and Gran Turismo sells more than any of them. While some refuse to see it this way, the world votes with its money on what it wants. And before anyone once again throws around Madden, Mario or Pokemon, you can't ignore how this is a factor within the genre. Otherwise, why not mention hot dogs and crayons while you're at it?
The general racing public has demanded a level of quality in their racers close to what PD and T10 produce in their games. It's a more satisfying, immersive, involving experience to them, and clearly racing sim makers have got the message or rFactor 2 wouldn't look nearly as good as it does. Near photo-real content is a pain to produce, otherwise everyone would be doing it, as well as realistic weather and time of day transitions.
Will Kaz and the team get the message that many of us want the rest of the real world experience? I think they do. But remember, to me and many race gamers, PC sims fall short in the involvement department, and so that sense of being surrounded by gas fumes and burnt rubber and in a race on a track halfway across the world just isn't there. Sounds help, but graphics more so, since we seem to be strongly driven by appearance. Ask any woman about that.
Games like Ferrari Challenge, Forza and Gran Turismo give me more of a sense of being surrounded by an arena of racing competition because the visuals are so strong and evocative, and this is true for most gamers, like it or not. This isn't all of it obviously, but it's a big part. Sound plays a big role too. Facing a race with league-specific rules helps a bit too. But we've kicked these questions around before, and my conclusion is that all Kaz can do is urge his team to try things, experiment, see if they can identify as many sensory factors that put you into a situation, and then see how well they can be recreated by game software and hardware. Kaz would be a very good judge, having been through a number of real world races himself.
Can they pull this off? Will they do it on PS3? I think in three years, we'll begin to get hints of whether or not they can, or how well.
- 5,351
- United States
- kudos00
old thread but I just had to
I didn't mean to sound like GTR2 wasn't anything compared to GT5. I was implying that they each have different aspects of the game to focus on (kind of implying). With the visuals, it looks a lot more difficult and time-consuming to produce GT5's graphics than it was for GTR2. I could have used old GT games as an example. As we know, the lighting engine in GT5 is amazing. Compared to GTR2's, I don't even believe they're in the same league. Am I right, or am I missing something? seriously
The physics obviously aren't groundbreaking. That's definite. Compare the level that GT5's "dynamic day and weather changes" are at and those of GTR2's. Also, take into consideration that the PS3 has so little RAM. I think it's groundbreaking in that case.
PS3 was released 5 years ago, still it manages to produce 2010 graphics
I didn't mean to sound like GTR2 wasn't anything compared to GT5. I was implying that they each have different aspects of the game to focus on (kind of implying). With the visuals, it looks a lot more difficult and time-consuming to produce GT5's graphics than it was for GTR2. I could have used old GT games as an example. As we know, the lighting engine in GT5 is amazing. Compared to GTR2's, I don't even believe they're in the same league. Am I right, or am I missing something? seriously
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- 28,353
- Brooklyn, NY
- KR_Viper
- I Renown I
I would say so, considering no one you've quoted is claiming GTR2 to look better than GT5. What's being stated is everything that GT5 is touting, or rather, what some people here are touting as one of the best features to come across since the dawn of man was done (on every track, no less) long before GT5 came along.
- 5,351
- United States
- kudos00
I'm not doubting that AT ALL. I added the middle paragraph after you posted so I hope it clears it up a bit.
- 28,353
- Brooklyn, NY
- KR_Viper
- I Renown I
Even so, it's hardly something I'd speak of in a positive light; the recommended VRAM for GTR2 to run it in D3D9 is 256MB, which is the same amount allocated to the RSX. The minimum is 64MB and that's to run it in D3D8.1. The recommended amount of system RAM is 1GB, with the minimal being 512MB.
The problem being is PD stuffed far too much into the game, taxing an already incredibly bottlenecked architecture and what did it in achieve? You have dynamic weather on a handful of tracks, and dynamic weather and a dynamic time cycle on twowhat was the point?
The problem being is PD stuffed far too much into the game, taxing an already incredibly bottlenecked architecture and what did it in achieve? You have dynamic weather on a handful of tracks, and dynamic weather and a dynamic time cycle on twowhat was the point?
