Legal Street Racing?

[Joey D]

Driving is inherently dangerous. There is NOTHING safe about it. Every time you get in a car and start the motor it is calculated risk.

I reject the notion that if you spend your whole life driving "normally", you're somehow in behind an invisible "safe" line and the second you begin to move towards the limits of your vehicle, you automatically cross this line. I think that is an oversimplification because it ignores context.

You are safer if you drive normally, yes there are always dangers out there, it can be anything. I mean you could be driving to the store as normal and someone could run a red light. However, if you drive normal and are well aware of you surrounding at the same time you have a better chance of noticing something before it happens and you have time to react.

You aren't invincible, but I do believe you are safer.

8/10ths is hardly reckless. Cops don't even pay attention unless tires are squealing.

Maybe in your state but in Michigan if you take a turn to quickly you can be pulled over. This has happened to me. I did not get a ticket, but the officer warned me not to drive like that. If you did get a ticket you could try and fight it but unless the judge knows you personally you won't have an easy time fighting it.

I see anything over what is expected on the road as reckless and I think people who drive that way are putting unneeded danger on the road. You obviously disagree which is fine, it doesn't mean I have to support or like your actions.

A control arm snapping in the middle of a turn is a total stretch. If the arm were faulty, it would much more likely break when the car encounters one of the bagillions of potholes on the roads out there.

It was an example, an extreme case I admit, but it could happen and how would you be prepared for it? Famine talked about risk assessment and I believe this is something you have to take into account for. Unless you are absolutely ace in the upkeep of your car, like going over it with a fine tooth comb, there might be problems you don't know about. On the Blazer my rear brakes went out with no prior indication of a problem, it happens.

A burst tire will not cause a vehicle to spin out of control unless the driver completely overreacts like the people who rolled their Explorers. I've HAD a tire completely burst on me while driving at 65 mph. It was a non-event. The only exciting thing about it was my cursing.

I've had a tire burst on me as well and as you know the control of your vehicle becomes vastly different in a very short amount of time. If you are "spirited" in a corner you could have some issues. Just because you and I can control a vehicle that has a tire down in one situation doesn't mean you can in others.

Seriously, man. What's with the attitude?

Your words, not mine.

I feel as if many of you are saying "spirited driving" is fine on a public road but other tom foolery isn't which seems hypocritical. To me if you are driving in any other manner then was the norm is on the road at the time there is a risk to everyone around, which does include me. I don't want someone who just bought a Mini Cooper S to think it's a go-kart and plow into me because I wasn't driving at the same caliber he is. I've been in one to many situations with other vehicle which could have been avoided if the other driver had just been going with the flow of traffic.

This is my main problem with spirited driving. Just because you are in control doesn't mean anyone else is. As you know, the public road is a very loosely controlled environment, whereas a track isn't 100% but it's much higher.

If we can't talk about illegal activities via the AUP then why is it ok to talk about spirited driving when a decent percentage of the time is talks about what could be considered under law, reckless driving? You may say it isn't, but I firmly believe a cop could find reason to ticket you for driving like that.

I do apologize for the attitude, I will admit my last post was a bit out of line, this is just something that irritates me because the road isn't a race course and shouldn't be treated as such.

How patronizing. Gimme a break.

And driving at 2/10th your whole life will? What about the thousands of people who die each year while NOT 'driving spiritedly'?


M

I'm sorry, maybe I misunderstood your statement, but racing autocross doesn't excuse anyone from driving in even remotely a similar manner on a public road. I realise this, hence why as soon as spring hits I will have me spirited driving fix at an autocross event. I'm sure you are a good driver, but all the experience in the world can not prepare you for every single thing that can happen.

I'd rather beneath my driving ability and my car's my entire life and not have to add any more risk then is necessary to driving. I understand you can die from various things on the roadway doing this, but I don't want to skew the odds for a mishap outside my favour.

I don't mean to be patronizing you and as I have said, my last post was a bit out of line, for which I do apologize.

 

[Dave A]

I cannot believe people think you have to be driving dangerousely to be driving spiritedly. I drive my car spiritedly regularly, that doesn't mean I exceed the speed limt or I exceed safe cornering limts or anything like that. When I'm drving normally I'm very relaxed, I have a looer grip on the wheel, I change up gears very low in the rev range. When I'm drving spiritedly I typically will hold the wheel firmer, I will change gear later and I will be far more focused on driving. That doesn't mean I'm nessisarily driving faster, it just means I'm driving differently. Now not to split hairs, yes spirit driving typically does involve accelerating faster and taking corners quicker it does not mean you must be driving fast or you must be driving above safe limits. You are not in competition, all you are doing is enjoying the drive. Now some people may be driving dangerousely while driving spiritedly, but that doesn't mean that spirited driving is sdriving dangerous, nor does it mean that is what everyone here is saying is okay. It's not.

I drive across whats called the Pennines here quite regular because I have family on the other side of them. The Pennines is a hilly region that runs down the northern part of England sperating the East from West. I've driven across the pennines spiritedly and casually. There are many sections of the Pennines that allow you to drive 50mph however very few are actually places I will, even when driving spiritedly. I've seen people racing along several of thoes roads over the years and guess what, they're always driving a hell of a lot faster than the 50mph limit. There is a big difference between getting the right gear shift and hitting the apex of an open corner (and by apexx I mean the line on the road not clipping the grass) at 30mph in 3rd gear at 3500rpm where the safe speed is 35 than the same corner either chasing or being chased by another car at 70mph.

I honestly can't believe people think the two are equally as dangerous. Ofcourse there's an element of danger involved in spirited driving, but it's no more so than casual driving as long as you arn't pushing any limits or exceeding any safe speeds and you are driving with consideration to other road users in mind. You are still within the legal and safe limits of the law and the cars capabilities and you will not be tailgating anyone, cutting anyone off, overtaking where you shouldn't etc. Yes you may up the tempo a bit, but you don't have to up it beyond any of thoes limits or to suddenly be driving inconsiderately of other raod users. If your version of spirited driving is dangerous driving and excessive speeding then that's not good and I wouldn't say it's okay. As Famine said earlier, spirited driving doesn't = driving fast.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

When I'm driving spiritedly I change gears at the normal economic RPM (sometimes a tiny bit higher so I don't have to change while cornering), I stay in the lane I should be in, and to any other driver or even a cop what I'm doing would look completely normal. I never exceed the speed limit (OK, I might have done once just to see my car's ability over 100km/hr, but I only reached 140km/hr, it was a smooth country road, no intersections, no traffic, open land scape either side of the road, and when I did reach an intersection I was slowing down to turn off there anyway) Spirited driving for me is always %100 legal and not even close to exceeding the limits, maybe 4/10ths of my ability (if I have any )
Most street races I have witnessed were on an open highway with minimal traffic ahead. They go hard for a while but once they reach a curve in the road or see upcoming traffic they back right off back to the speed limit. Doesn't make it right, but in that type of street race it's much safer than the races you guys describe.

 

[Blake]

I wouldn't even approach 10% of either my car's abilities, nor my own, driving normally. I try not to approach 10% remaining of either while driving spiritedly.

I very much approach the limits of my tyres traction while driving. My tyres will slide, and I will smile. I assess the risks (I too like to live to tell the tale) and drive in a manner that is allows me to approach my car’s limits with minimum risk.

To say there is no risk is impossible, but it is also difficult to quantify how much more risk (if any) I am subjecting myself to than other drivers may be (who aren’t approaching the limits of traction). I am more aware than most drivers on the road, I am looking for danger and will react appropriately. I do not feel I am putting my life in danger the way I drive.

As you suggested, you should not go around a corner faster than you can see (i.e. if you can't stop when you see something you’re going too fast), but that does not mean you cannot approach the limits of traction in a relatively controlled manner.

What if the safe speed for that corner on the 50mph limit road was actually 34mph?

Define safe. You could probably safely navigate that corner while staying within your lane etc. at 60mph if you pushed the limits of traction. On the other hand by doing so you might not be able to safely react in a particularly emergency circumstance. But, by taking the corner at 34mph are you really driving spiritedly?

Spirited driving isn't about speed. It's about getting enjoyment through driving your car well. It's perfecting your heel and toe downshifts, clipping the corners apex to perfection, feeling the car on it's tippy toes on the threshold of traction. It's about getting out of your car with a smile on your face. It's not about thrashing it to within an inch of it's life, you can keep that for the track.

What do you mean it isn’t about speed? I do not think going quickly in a straight line is fun either, but I do think speed plays an important part in my enjoyment of driving, and in my case that is corner speed (which is required to be on the threshold of traction while clipping apexes, which seems to fit in with your definition). Of course it’s about speed…

But does it require driving fast, like you've stated from the start?

I say no.

Define fast. As above, I don’t have to be breaking any speed limits to corner quickly near the limit of traction. But for the corner, it is still fast (and it has to be to be anywhere near the limit).

 

[Alfaholic]

@ ///M-Spec: Yes, I can meet you there. Also apologies, I thought you had an M-Roadster, not a Z4-M. Not sure why I thought that actually.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

So there I was watching some crazy youtube videos when a thought occured to me. If 2 blokes went on to the autobahn at a really quiet time of day and had a race, is that even illegal? They're still abiding by the rules as there isn't any speed limits. Is what they're doing stupid or fun? It is the autobahn after all. It's meant to be travelled at high speeds.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

So there I was watching some crazy youtube videos when a thought occured to me. If 2 blokes went on to the autobahn at a really quiet time of day and had a race, is that even illegal? They're still abiding by the rules as there isn't any speed limits. Is what they're doing stupid or fun? It is the autobahn after all. It's meant to be travelled at high speeds.

If they were on an unrestricted portion, then I think depending on Germany's laws they may be pulled over street racing, reckless driving, or something of that nature. But I don't know what laws they have.

 

[nk4e]

If they were on an unrestricted portion, then I think depending on Germany's laws they may be pulled over street racing, reckless driving, or something of that nature. But I don't know what laws they have.

Not really I believe on the Autobahn, the left side is for highspeed cars and the right is for normal. When its foggy, there are alot of Exotics that crash at night. I wouldn't consider it illegal then because there is no signs posted.
( Smokey Nagata on the Autobahn)
( Smokey Nagata on the English Motorway)

 

[Famine]

Define safe. You could probably safely navigate that corner while staying within your lane etc. at 60mph if you pushed the limits of traction.

Nope. Any faster than 35mph (in my car) and understeer happens. Given that the road is less than 14 feet wide and I'm already on the outside of the bend (drive on the left, corner to the right) that's not good.

On the other hand by doing so you might not be able to safely react in a particularly emergency circumstance.

That'd be Dangerous Driving, a specific road traffic offence, even though you're below the speed limit.

But, by taking the corner at 34mph are you really driving spiritedly?

Yes. You simply cannot push it any further and maintain safe driving.

Define fast. As above, I don’t have to be breaking any speed limits to corner quickly near the limit of traction. But for the corner, it is still fast (and it has to be to be anywhere near the limit).

Fast is above one or both of the legal or safe road limits (one of which is legislated, one of which is not).

Noone has yet offered any description of spirited driving which involves practices that the same driver would not indulge in while driving normally, but does not involve driving faster.

I have, but you haven't seen it yet.

Remember that the loud pedal is just one of three in front of you (two if you're in an automatic) and one of just five (four/three) control options you have.

That's an easy one. Brake until you're doing 30mph, then stop braking.

Easy, but you still got it wrong. Braking to 30mph then driving round a 20mph corner would see me in a hedge off the outside of the bend.

I suggest you consider the first of the two paragraphs. All the information you need is there - and more importantly it also ought to be there and assessed while you're approaching the corner at the legal limit of 60mph.

However, if you normally negotiate that bend at 20mph, but one day feel spirited and negotiate it at 30mph, then you are, on that day, by your standards, driving fast.

That's a negative. I'm still within the safe and legal limits of the road. At either side of the bend I'm still doing the same 60mph I'd do on any normal day.

You have speeded up from a normal negotiating speed of 20 to a current negotiating speed of 30. Not speeded up relative to your entry speed on this specific occasion, but speeded up relative to your established norm.

Again, that's a negative. The digits in front of me may be higher but I haven't speeded up.

I'll give you a bigger clue - I could do the same corner at 20mph and decrease the time taken to go through it compared to going through the corner at 20mph on a "normal" day.


Honestly, I still cannot believe that anyone would compare spirited driving (or "making good progress") to competitive driving, nor any intrinsically illegal act.

Incidentally, I apologise for the delay - I've been away for the weekend.

 

[Blake]

So you accelerate hard, brake hard, use higher revs than normal, but go around corners at the same speed you normally would?

 

[Famine]

So you accelerate hard, brake hard, use higher revs than normal, but go around corners at the same speed you normally would?

Your evidence for this conclusion?

 

[Blake]

I'll give you a bigger clue - I could do the same corner at 20mph and decrease the time taken to go through it compared to going through the corner at 20mph on a "normal" day.

That?

 

[Alfaholic]

Fast is above one or both of the legal or safe road limits (one of which is legislated, one of which is not).

Incorrect.

I have, but you haven't seen it yet.

Remember that the loud pedal is just one of three in front of you (two if you're in an automatic) and one of just five (four/three) control options you have.

Easy, but you still got it wrong. Braking to 30mph then driving round a 20mph corner would see me in a hedge off the outside of the bend.

I suggest you consider the first of the two paragraphs. All the information you need is there - and more importantly it also ought to be there and assessed while you're approaching the corner at the legal limit of 60mph.

Nowhere did you mention that the bend could not be taken any faster than 20mph. On the contrary, that would make the maximum cornering speed ability of your car, and since you "don't normally exceed 10% of your car's abilities", that would suggest that 20mph is nowhere near your limit on that corner. Unless your interpretation of spirited driving has nothing to do with grip limits or cornering speeds. I can only assume that spirited driving for you must involve a seance or something.

That's a negative. I'm still within the safe and legal limits of the road. At either side of the bend I'm still doing the same 60mph I'd do on any normal day..

Within the safe limits? Not according to your paragraph before this one, you're not. Your speed before and after the corner are irrelevant to how spirited, safe, racy, or whatever you were in negotiating the corner itself.

Again, that's a negative. The digits in front of me may be higher but I haven't speeded up.

What digits? Those on your clock? Can't be those on your speedo, because even Einstein couldn't make sense of how come yesterday you were doing 20 here, today you're doing 30, but you're not going any faster.

I'll give you a bigger clue - I could do the same corner at 20mph and decrease the time taken to go through it compared to going through the corner at 20mph on a "normal" day.

Cut the corner? Not exactly safe in view of oncoming traffic. It's also not spirited. It's just lazy.

Honestly, I still cannot believe that anyone would compare spirited driving (or "making good progress") to competitive driving, nor any intrinsically illegal act.

You did by declaring the one to be dangerous and the other not.

Incidentally, I apologise for the delay - I've been away for the weekend.

You still haven't answered these questions:

What parts of your car control do you indulge when driving spiritedly, that you do not indulge when driving normally?

What are you doing, when driving spiritedly, that brings your car closer to the point that it would fail to respond to your inputs, assuming no mechanical failure?

Your persistent avoidance of providing me with direct, meaningful answers to such questions, coupled with your extremely pedantic treatment of any and all terms put forward to describe driving faster, leads me to conclude that you feel compelled at all costs either not to be wrong in this debate, nor to tolerate any viewpoint other than your own. This attitude would also explain why you feel individuals involved in a street race are forced sacrifice all concerns for personal safety in order to win.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

If they were on an unrestricted portion, then I think depending on Germany's laws they may be pulled over street racing, reckless driving, or something of that nature. But I don't know what laws they have.

So despite it being an unlimited speed limit racing on the autobahn is still illegal?

Not really I believe on the Autobahn, the left side is for highspeed cars and the right is for normal. When its foggy, there are alot of Exotics that crash at night. I wouldn't consider it illegal then because there is no signs posted.
( Smokey Nagata on the Autobahn)
( Smokey Nagata on the English Motorway)

Then this came up, I don't know what you are trying to say. The high speeds aren't illegal, but what about street racing there? I mean you couldn't do it side by side but maybe games of cat and mouse in the left hand lane if you catch my drift?

 

[Famine]

That?

Not a very sound conclusion then, since I mentioned neither braking nor accelerating. Or revving.

Incorrect.

How so? I was asked to define "fast". If my definition of "fast" doesn't meet yours, why is mine "incorrect" and yours not?

Nowhere did you mention that the bend could not be taken any faster than 20mph. On the contrary, that would make the maximum cornering speed ability of your car, and since you "don't normally exceed 10% of your car's abilities", that would suggest that 20mph is nowhere near your limit on that corner. Unless your interpretation of spirited driving has nothing to do with grip limits or cornering speeds.

I honestly cannot believe that you - a member of a car racing game-based website - cannot see where you are wrong. You are making a colossal assumption in every response you make which I've given you no cause to assume. I'm not sure if I'm going to have to draw a diagram for you, but the first of the two paragraphs in my example contains all of the information you could possibly need.

Within the safe limits? Not according to your paragraph before this one, you're not. Your speed before and after the corner are irrelevant to how spirited, safe, racy, or whatever you were in negotiating the corner itself.

I'm sorry, but I wasn't able to extract your meaning from the mess of quoting.

Cut the corner?

Halleluiah! We have an epiphany!

Not exactly safe in view of oncoming traffic.

What oncoming traffic?

The bend has clear visibility throughout

It's also not spirited. It's just lazy.

Quick - phone every track in the world and get them to paint an immutable centre line through their whole lengths. That'll stop the drivers being so lazy!

Increasing the radius of the corner decreases the amount of lateral grip required to keep your tyres stuck to the road for a given speed. By increasing the radius, I reduce the amount by which I have to decelerate inorder to negotiate the corner in complete safety - or the upper bound of the safe speed increases. And all I had to do was assess the corner properly - something any driver who claims to be an enthusiast ought to be able to do instantly.

You did by declaring the one to be dangerous and the other not.

And the quote for that is... where?

All I've stated is that you do not have to drive fast in order to have a spirited, enjoyable drive and that you would have a diminshed ability to perceive risks if a portion of your attention normally reserved for that is instead on a second driver in some form of competition.

Quit making things up.

Your persistent avoidance of providing me with direct, meaningful answers to such questions, coupled with your extremely pedantic treatment of any and all terms put forward to describe driving faster, leads me to conclude that you feel compelled at all costs either not to be wrong in this debate, nor to tolerate any viewpoint other than your own. This attitude would also explain why you feel individuals involved in a street race are forced sacrifice all concerns for personal safety in order to win.

Straw man. Pathetic.

Keep the debate about the debate. Driving spiritedly on the road does not mean driving fast or exceeding legal or safe limits. For some reason you keep pretending that it does - and you keep making up comments and attributing them to me.

Determined "not to be wrong, nor tolerate any viewpoint other than your own", eh?

 

[McLaren]

So there I was watching some crazy youtube videos when a thought occured to me. If 2 blokes went on to the autobahn at a really quiet time of day and had a race, is that even illegal? They're still abiding by the rules as there isn't any speed limits. Is what they're doing stupid or fun? It is the autobahn after all. It's meant to be travelled at high speeds.

If you race on the Autobahns, it is illegal, and you are subject to prison. The German police believe in spirited driving on the 'Bahns, but when you race someone, you not only will break a rule, but you also be driving more dangerously.

My previous experience showed people only go flat out when there's room, and they can pass on the left. If they don't have room, they won't try to go around. I doubt a street race will do the same, and that's why it's illegal.
BTW, the Autobahns in Germany do have speed limits, esp. in the areas where it gets really foggy. It's just a common misunderstanding in anywhere but Europe that there is 1 Autobahn and that it is unlimited all around.

 

[Joey D]

Just because driving spirited doesn't break the limit it does not mean it isn't dangerous. You said so yourself, speed doesn't mean anything. You keep making yourself sound superior with this and trying to justify actions that are at best questionable.

 

[Famine]

Just because driving spirited doesn't break the limit it does not mean it isn't dangerous.

Driving which doesn't break the SAFE limit can never be dangerous (so long as it doesn't break the legal limit on its way there).

trying to justify actions that are at best questionable.

What action would this be?

 

[Joey D]

Driving which doesn't break the SAFE limit can never be dangerous (so long as it doesn't break the legal limit on its way there).

Yes you've mentioned that. Driving in a spirited fashion however can break the limit, even if it is for a fraction of a second.

What action would this be?

Uh spirited driving 💡?

 

[Famine]

Yes you've mentioned that. Driving in a spirited fashion however can break the limit, even if it is for a fraction of a second.

It shouldn't. Note my definitions above, where I say that driving fast is exceeding one or both of the safe and legal speed limits, and that spirited driving is not driving fast? That would mean that spirited driving cannot exceed either the safe OR the legal limit.

Uh spirited driving 💡?

So driving within both the legal AND safe speed limits is a questionable action?

 

[Joey D]

It shouldn't. Note my definitions above, where I say that driving fast is exceeding one or both of the safe and legal speed limits, and that spirited driving is not driving fast? That would mean that spirited driving cannot exceed either the safe OR the legal limit.

You are right it shouldn't, but that doesn't mean it won't. You could take corners in any number of ways in which is fun for you, a little peppery if you will (not fast, not breaking the limits of your car) and hit a small patch of gravel that wasn't noticeable and end up in a tree.

The road is made for driving, not seeing if you can corner a bit better then everyone else.

So driving within both the legal AND safe speed limits is a questionable action?

When you are driving in a more spirited fashion then everyone else on the road, yes. Why is it so difficult to just take your car to an auto cross event if you want to drive a little more spirited then your average driver on the road? They aren't overly expensive and can be a lot of fun without ever damaging your vehicle.

 

[Famine]

You are right it shouldn't, but that doesn't mean it won't. You could take corners in any number of ways in which is fun for you, a little peppery if you will (not fast, not breaking the limits of your car) and hit a small patch of gravel that wasn't noticeable and end up in a tree.

Which is why you should never drive all-out on a public road - note the 90% example from earlier.


Incidentally, if you hit a patch of anything you didn't notice, you weren't observing properly and, as a result, were exceeding the safe limit. All accidents occur when the safe limit is exceeded (though the opposite isn't true). I think we're more or less on the same wavelength, but you need to appreciate just what a "safe limit" actually is.

 

[Joey D]

Which is why you should never drive all-out on a public road - note the 90% example from earlier.


Incidentally, if you hit a patch of anything you didn't notice, you weren't observing properly and, as a result, were exceeding the safe limit. All accidents occur when the safe limit is exceeded (though the opposite isn't true). I think we're more or less on the same wavelength, but you need to appreciate just what a "safe limit" actually is.

All accidents do NOT occur when the safe limit is exceeded. When my truck was hit someone merged into me coming up to a stop light, he just didn't see me. Neither one of us were going fast or exceeding any limit.

Also could you please answer my question on what is so difficult about attending an auto cross event to get your driving fun in? I am genuinely curious why people just don't go to these.

 

[Famine]

All accidents do NOT occur when the safe limit is exceeded. When my truck was hit someone merged into me coming up to a stop light, he just didn't see me.

He exceeded the safe limit - he failed to observe you.

Neither one of us were going fast or exceeding any limit.

The safe limit doesn't apply to just speed you know...

Also could you please answer my question on what is so difficult about attending an auto cross event to get your driving fun in? I am genuinely curious why people just don't go to these.

I wouldn't even know where an autocross event around here was.

Not to mention the fact that if I'm driving safely and legally, having to pay to do the same when I already pay to drive in the first place is a bit pointless. And I wouldn't have any car insurance at any sanctioned motorsports event.

Incidentally, is autocross that thing with the small arena and some cones?

 

[Joey D]

He exceeded the safe limit - he failed to observe you.

I don't consider that breaking any limit, it's just not looking. Which is unsafe but not in excess of any limit of your vehicle or even yourself.

I wouldn't even know where an autocross event around here was.

Not to mention the fact that if I'm driving safely and legally, having to pay to do the same when I already pay to drive in the first place is a bit pointless. And I wouldn't have any car insurance at any sanctioned motorsports event.

Incidentally, is autocross that thing with the small arena and some cones?

A web search will find events, there are probably six a month in my area during the summer here that a SCCA sanctioned...meaning proper insurance and safety.

And auto cross does have the cones but it's not really a small area to race in. It can be, but does not have to be. And they aren't overly expensive when you think about the piece of mind if gives you known you may drive as hard or as safe as your like with the only consequence being a poor time through the gates.

 

[Famine]

I don't consider that breaking any limit, it's just not looking. Which is unsafe but not in excess of any limit of your vehicle or even yourself.

If it's unsafe it's breaking the safe limit. I mean, that's pretty much the definition.

The Zeroth Law of safe driving - at any speed - is observation. If you can't see or hear it, you can't factor it.

A web search will find events, there are probably six a month in my area during the summer here that a SCCA sanctioned...meaning proper insurance and safety.

A challenge for you then. Find me 3 autocross events in the UK taking place in March.

you may drive as hard or as safe as your like with the only consequence being a poor time through the gates.

So pretty much like spirited driving, but with an entry fee and a timer. I'll pass, thanks. I don't need a stopwatch to enjoy driving in safety.

 

[Joey D]

A challenge for you then. Find me 3 autocross events in the UK taking place in March.

There probably won't be any in March as it's winter. They typically do not start until the end of April. However, I found out in the UK you guys call auto cross what we would call dirt racing. I don't know what the UK word for it is, nor do I know what your amateur racing association is called. I'm going to still guess they are common though.

 

[Famine]

There probably won't be any in March as it's winter. They typically do not start until the end of April. However, I found out in the UK you guys call auto cross what we would call dirt racing. I don't know what the UK word for it is, nor do I know what your amateur racing association is called. I'm going to still guess they are common though.

You'd guess wrong. We have lots of track days you can participate in - I went on one last August which cost me £52, but there was no timing or racing permitted - but you are not covered by your car insurance for any incidents that happen at the track (which is why there are many claims for crashes on public roads just outside of track venues). But I cannot for the life of me think of anywhere that offers any autocross/gymkhana-style public events.

Which is all by-the-by in any case, since you don't need to take yourself to a venue away from the rules of the road if you're driving safely in the first place.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

If you race on the Autobahns, it is illegal, and you are subject to prison. The German police believe in spirited driving on the 'Bahns, but when you race someone, you not only will break a rule, but you also be driving more dangerously.

My previous experience showed people only go flat out when there's room, and they can pass on the left. If they don't have room, they won't try to go around. I doubt a street race will do the same, and that's why it's illegal.
BTW, the Autobahns in Germany do have speed limits, esp. in the areas where it gets really foggy. It's just a common misunderstanding in anywhere but Europe that there is 1 Autobahn and that it is unlimited all around.

Thanks for clearing that up for me 👍 I thought it might be like that. I do sometimes forget there is more than one stretch of road known as autobahn. But then again the only Autobarn we have is an auto store

 

[///M-Spec]

You are safer if you drive normally, yes there are always dangers out there, it can be anything. I mean you could be driving to the store as normal and someone could run a red light. However, if you drive normal and are well aware of you surrounding at the same time you have a better chance of noticing something before it happens and you have time to react.

You aren't invincible, but I do believe you are safer.

Maybe in your state but in Michigan if you take a turn to quickly you can be pulled over. This has happened to me. I did not get a ticket, but the officer warned me not to drive like that. If you did get a ticket you could try and fight it but unless the judge knows you personally you won't have an easy time fighting it.

I see anything over what is expected on the road as reckless and I think people who drive that way are putting unneeded danger on the road. You obviously disagree which is fine, it doesn't mean I have to support or like your actions.

It was an example, an extreme case I admit, but it could happen and how would you be prepared for it? Famine talked about risk assessment and I believe this is something you have to take into account for. Unless you are absolutely ace in the upkeep of your car, like going over it with a fine tooth comb, there might be problems you don't know about. On the Blazer my rear brakes went out with no prior indication of a problem, it happens.

I've had a tire burst on me as well and as you know the control of your vehicle becomes vastly different in a very short amount of time. If you are "spirited" in a corner you could have some issues. Just because you and I can control a vehicle that has a tire down in one situation doesn't mean you can in others.

Your words, not mine.

I feel as if many of you are saying "spirited driving" is fine on a public road but other tom foolery isn't which seems hypocritical. To me if you are driving in any other manner then was the norm is on the road at the time there is a risk to everyone around, which does include me. I don't want someone who just bought a Mini Cooper S to think it's a go-kart and plow into me because I wasn't driving at the same caliber he is. I've been in one to many situations with other vehicle which could have been avoided if the other driver had just been going with the flow of traffic.

This is my main problem with spirited driving. Just because you are in control doesn't mean anyone else is. As you know, the public road is a very loosely controlled environment, whereas a track isn't 100% but it's much higher.

If we can't talk about illegal activities via the AUP then why is it ok to talk about spirited driving when a decent percentage of the time is talks about what could be considered under law, reckless driving? You may say it isn't, but I firmly believe a cop could find reason to ticket you for driving like that.

I do apologize for the attitude, I will admit my last post was a bit out of line, this is just something that irritates me because the road isn't a race course and shouldn't be treated as such.

I'm sorry, maybe I misunderstood your statement, but racing autocross doesn't excuse anyone from driving in even remotely a similar manner on a public road. I realise this, hence why as soon as spring hits I will have me spirited driving fix at an autocross event. I'm sure you are a good driver, but all the experience in the world can not prepare you for every single thing that can happen.

I'd rather beneath my driving ability and my car's my entire life and not have to add any more risk then is necessary to driving. I understand you can die from various things on the roadway doing this, but I don't want to skew the odds for a mishap outside my favour.

I don't mean to be patronizing you and as I have said, my last post was a bit out of line, for which I do apologize.

Instead of the time honored Opinions Multiquote-it-to-Hell Drill, I'm going to address your post in a completely different way.

At what speed do, you Joey D, typically drive? For simplicity, let's say you're on a road where the speed limit is 55 mph.

1) At or near the speed limit +/- 5 mph
2) Somewhat below the posted speed limit: < 45
3) Somewhat above the posted speed limit: > 65

Please be honest. Feel free to elaborate as much you feel is necessary. There is a point to this, I promise.

I appreciate the apology, btw; consider the event forgotten. 👍


@Alfaholic: Oh, no worries about what you call my car. It's official name is "BMW Z4 M Roadster" so you were correct either way! I just call her "Slow-n-Ugly"


M