Legal Street Racing?

[TheCracker]

I just don't think you understand the whole concept of spirited driving. It has nothing to do with speed or danger at all.

 

[Famine]

What? It's not speeding if the limit is 50mph and you take the corner at 50mph.

It's not speeding if you drive down the motorway at 70mph in 20 feet of visibility. It's still dangerous and in excess of the safe limit for the conditions.

The suggested speed is 35mph. I don't know if you have that in the UK but here we have yellow signs that give you suggested speeds for things, which is up to you to follow or not.

Nope. There's a 60mph road near me which has a corner you should only safely negotiate at a maximum 30mph. If I were driving spiritedly, I'd approach that 30mph. If I were driving normally I'd not be anywhere near it.

It's not a unique patch of road.

I still honestly can not believe you guys will sit here and harp on street racers (who are wrong) but then say you are fine with someone (like yourself) who go out on the public streets and drive in a spirited manner.

The problem is that you can't see a difference. You don't have to break any limits to drive spiritedly, nor do you have to get from point A to point B as fast as possible.

 

[Joey D]

You said you are on the threshold of traction, how in that not dangerous? And you don't have to be going fast to be dangerous. I can hurt myself just as well doing 30mph in a car as I can doing 130mph. If you want to experiment with your car, even at 50% of it's limits do it on a track where it belongs. The road is for just normal driving since a majority of people do just that and there are so many unforeseeable consequences that you are just stupid to risk it at all.

I'm not saying you have to speed, but if you drive in any other fashion then what is typically done on the road you are an increased risk and should be punished for it.

The problem is that you can't see a difference. You don't have to break any limits to drive spiritedly, nor do you have to get from point A to point B as fast as possible.

No you can not see the difference, either that or your view of spirited driving is weak and what you think it is, is nothing more then normal driving. Once again, I can't believe people who harp on street racers think this is ok to do, you are being hypocritical.

 

[Alfaholic]

I didn't say it didn't involve a change of pace - I was asking why "spirited driving" necessarily meant "driving fast".

So if you take a corner at 10% max of what you consider to be the limit when driving normally, but 90% max of what you consider to be the limit when driving spiritedly (but assumedly above 10%, otherwise there's no difference you've put forward to distinguish it from your normal driving), then you've speeded up, hence are driving fast.

You yourself would be the first to point that whether or not 85mph could be considered "fast" depends on entirely where you're doing 85mph. If you're doing 85 in a place you'd normally be doing 80, or 35 where you'd normally do 30, you're driving fast and may be at 90% of limit. If you're doing 120mph on a stretch of motorway where you'd normally be doing 120mph, you're driving normally (for you), or slowly (in general) if everyone else does 140mph there. You may well also be within your 10% max of limit. The number on the speedo is arbitary when isolated from your environment.

Nope. There's a 60mph road near me which has a corner you should only safely negotiate at a maximum 30mph. If I were driving spiritedly, I'd approach that 30mph. If I were driving normally I'd not be anywhere near it.

In other words, spirited driving involves driving faster than normal driving. It would be pedantic in the extreme to object to this case being referred to as "driving fast".

 

[Famine]

No you can not see the difference

Err... you are lumping spirited driving and driving fast together... You don't think there's a difference. There is.

So if you take a corner at 10% max of what you consider to be the limit when driving normally, but 90% max of what you consider to be the limit when driving spiritedly (but assumedly above 10%, otherwise there's no difference you've put forward to distinguish it from your normal driving), then you've speeded up, hence are driving fast.

Not bad, right up until the final four words, when it all falls apart.

Driving fast != Driving spiritedly.

 

[Joey D]

No I am not since I have said repeatedly you do not have to be driving fast or above the limit to be dangerous.

 

[Alfaholic]

Driving fast != Driving spiritedly.

I didn't say they were the same thing. I am definitely saying that spirited driving involves driving fast, and so are you - as per my edited previous post.

 

[Famine]

No I am not since I have said repeatedly you do not have to be driving fast or above the limit to be dangerous.

And that has what to do with the fact you cannot separate fast driving from spirited driving?

I didn't say they were the same thing. I am definitely saying that spirited driving involves driving fast, and so are you - as per my edited previous post.

Then you are saying they are the same thing. To you, spirited driving ALWAYS means you're driving fast.

I am not, have never and will never say that. So I'd appreciate it if you didn't pretend I did in order to make some kind of point.


Spirited driving is not necessarily driving fast. Say it three times, out loud.

 

[Joey D]

And that has what to do with the fact you cannot separate fast driving from spirited driving?

What are you talking about? Of course I can, are you just ignoring my posts now? I have said, numerous times now, that you don't have to be speeding to driving in a spirited fashion, but that doesn't make it any less dangerous. If the limit is 50mph and you are driving 40mph, but everyone else is doing 38mph you pose a risk, even if it is a small one. That isn't speeding, and we will assume a bright, clear, sunny day for this one where the road is dry and gravel free.

Spirited driving = not driving normal.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Some corners in my area recommend a 40km/hr speed around them when the limit is 60km/hr. You can take these corners at 60km/hr without even sliding in my relatively flat seats- i.e. Very easily taken corners at 60km/hr. Some recommended speeds put in by the government are unnecessarily slow. Some however you better pay attention I have 90 degree corners right near my house in an 80km/hr zone and a narrow road. (that's the bush for you) They recommend 40km/hr and you better believe them. One of them is off camber to boot. Going around the outside of that one can be damn scary sometimes as there is usually gravel there and you feel your car will slide right off the road.

 

[Alfaholic]

Spirited driving is not necessarily driving fast. Say it three times, out loud.[/color][/b]

No.

And that has what to do with the fact you cannot separate fast driving from spirited driving?



Then you are saying they are the same thing. To you, spirited driving ALWAYS means you're driving fast.

I am not, have never and will never say that. So I'd appreciate it if you didn't pretend I did in order to make some kind of point.

You did say it. You said, specifically, to drive in a spirited manner, you speed up. I can't confirm what else you believe it involves because you haven't told me. And I maintain that I have not and do not say they are the same thing. Spirited driving requires driving faster than normal. Doesn't mean that's all there is to it. It's an engredient. Like chocolate in chocolate cake. You agree that spirited driving involves speeding up in the quote below:

Nope. There's a 60mph road near me which has a corner you should only safely negotiate at a maximum 30mph. If I were driving spiritedly, I'd approach that 30mph. If I were driving normally I'd not be anywhere near it.

 

[Megasoft Office]

Well I suppose it’s cheaper than building a race track.

Which is precisely why this approach is immeasurably more feasible than waiting for city council to zone a region for an expensive new race circuit. The caveats are that it would only work for small and mid-sized cities with an ample rural or private road network and, well, the actual racing experience of the participating demographic.

 

[TheCracker]

What are you talking about? Of course I can, are you just ignoring my posts now? I have said, numerous times now, that you don't have to be speeding to driving in a spirited fashion, but that doesn't make it any less dangerous. If the limit is 50mph and you are driving 40mph, but everyone else is doing 38mph you pose a risk, even if it is a small one. That isn't speeding, and we will assume a bright, clear, sunny day for this one where the road is dry and gravel free.

Spirited driving = not driving normal.

If 'driving normal' = driving at the same speed as the rest of the traffic, but not really fully concentrating on what you are doing, as 90% of all road users seem to do. Then i would say that 'spirited driving' where you are concentrating 100% at the task at hand, with nothing distracting you, is inherently safer.

 

[Famine]

You did say it. You said, specifically, to drive in a spirited manner, you speed up.

Please provide that specific quote.

Spirited driving requires driving faster than normal.

But does it require driving fast, like you've stated from the start?

I say no.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Is taking a large round-about at 45km/hr so I don't have to use second gear spirited or racing then? I think it's spirited, plenty of potential in the car to go faster. I'm just being lazy by only using 3rd gear. (It's a big round-about)

 

[Alfaholic]

Please provide that specific quote.

I did, but here's another. The funny thing about this one is that I asked you what you believe makes spirited driving different from normal driving and the ONLY change you listed was an increase in speed.

I wouldn't even approach 10% of either my car's abilities, nor my own, driving normally. I try not to approach 10% remaining of either while driving spiritedly.

Unless of course the ability you were referring to was fuel range, radio volume, water resistance, seating capacity, tyre pressure, or ability to be driven by ghosts. If any of these cases are true, or if there is one I missed that bears no resemblence to increased use of the throttle or decreased use of the brake pedal, then I take it back.

But does it require driving fast, like you've stated from the start?

I say no.

Covered that already, but since we're pedantically revisiting it, what, exactly, does driving fast mean to you since you are not accepting my definition of it being driving at a pace faster than you normally would? Not that it really matters since my definition should be accepted as what I meant when I said "driving fast", just as you are free to reclarify what you mean by "spirited driving" if I have misunderstood you.

Either way, none of this answers my original question, which I now update with my current understanding of your definitions: where in all this does a person involved in a street race get forced to exceed 90% of their vehicle's ability, and what is stopping you from exceeding it when engaging in spirited driving?

 

[Famine]

I did, but here's another.

No - you said I "said, specifically, to drive in a spirited manner, you speed up". I have at no point specifically stated that in order to drive spiritedly I "speed up". You say I did. Provide me with that quote.

The funny thing about this one is that I asked you what you believe makes spirited driving different from normal driving and the ONLY change you listed was an increase in speed.

Again with the fail. That's how you read it. What I said was:

I wouldn't even approach 10% of either my car's abilities, nor my own, driving normally. I try not to approach 10% remaining of either while driving spiritedly.

Since you place such an emphasis on speed, you read that as increasing speed. Ability is not limited to straight line speed - else 10% ability would be 14mph and 90% would be 127mph.

Covered that already, but since we're pedantically revisiting it, what, exactly, does driving fast mean to you since you are not accepting my definition of it being driving at a pace faster than you normally would? Not that it really matters since my definition should be accepted as what I meant when I said "driving fast", just as you are free to reclarify what you mean by "spirited driving" if I have misunderstood you.

Driving fast means... driving... fast.

Driving fast does not mean driving faster.

Spirited driving does not necessarily require one to drive faster either. Spirited driving is NOT driving fast.

Either way, none of this answers my original question, which I now update with my current understanding of your definitions: where in all this does a person involved in a street race get forced to exceed 90% of their vehicle's ability, and what is stopping you from exceeding it when engaging in spirited driving?

The fact that they are competing with someone else - often for money - and the fact that someone driving spiritedly is never competing with someone else.

 

[Joey D]

You know you never answered what exactly is spirited driving to you. I'm curious.

 

[Alfaholic]

No - you said I "said, specifically, to drive in a spirited manner, you speed up". I have at no point specifically stated that in order to drive spiritedly I "speed up". You say I did. Provide me with that quote.



Again with the fail. That's how you read it. What I said was:...]

Well, what ability / abilities are you referring to then?

Since you place such an emphasis on speed, you read that as increasing speed. Ability is not limited to straight line speed - else 10% ability would be 14mph and 90% would be 127mph.

When did "straight line" suddenly become a factor?

Driving fast means... driving... fast.

How fast is fast then, exactly?

Spirited driving does not necessarily require one to drive faster either. Spirited driving is NOT driving fast.

You're spending a lot of time saying what it doesn't involve, but not telling me what you think it does involve, or what makes it any different from normal driving, except a reference to your and your car's as yet unspecified abilities.

The fact that they are competing with someone else - often for money - and the fact that someone driving spiritedly is never competing with someone else.

So being in competition denies the driver the option of maintaining a 10% margin on ability? And not being in competition denies the driver the option of exceeding his or his car's ability?

 

[Famine]

You know you never answered what exactly is spirited driving to you. I'm curious.

I'm wholly sure I did.


I find it fascinating that, on a website dedicated to a car driving simulator, people can't appreciate the differences between competitive driving, fast driving, spirited driving and normal driving. I've been in cars doing all four - not necessarily as the driver - and I've been in cars doing all four in safety and all four dangerously.

Well, what ability / abilities are you referring to then?

In terms of my own: Car control.

In terms of the car's: Ability to respond to my inputs, and without mechanical failure.

When did "straight line" suddenly become a factor?

I find it quite difficult to go round corners at 127mph. If speed is all you are concerned about and I can't corner at 90% of my speed then straight lines are the only remaining option.

Let me ask you a question here.

Imagine I am approaching a right-hand bend. I'm doing 60mph, on the left-hand side of the road (the driving side in the UK). The bend has clear visibility throughout - I can see any traffic approaching the bend from the other side - but is sharply curved to the right, at about 70 degrees.

How can I pass through the bend at 20mph normally but 30mph spiritedly, without increasing the relative pressure on the throttle (or "speeding up") at any point during the events mentioned in this question?

So being in competition denies the driver the option of maintaining a 10% margin on ability?

Yes.

If the driver is driving at 90% of his ability without the influence of other traffic and the pressure of beating someone else, he only leaves 10% left to deal with the influence of other traffic and the pressure of beating someone else.

These figures are arbitrary - I maintain a personal 10%. Other drivers may travel at less, or more. Or none - they might drive as hard as they possibly can, all the time.

And not being in competition denies the driver the option of exceeding his or his car's ability?

That's a false syllogism.

 

[///M-Spec]

I think putting each activity into more specific context will help resolve this disagreement.

Have a look at the GoogleEarch pic below. This is a typical low density suburban cloverleaf in a small city.



Let's say (hypothetically) that during rushhour traffic, both the Interstate and the 4 lane county road would be packed with people trying to get where they are going. On the weekends or at night, traffic would be very light: say if you stopped at a light, chances were good you were the only car there.

Suppose the large parking lot to the left (near marker C) is a Home Depot. It is open late into the night and stays fairly busy during the day. There is a gas station south of marker D and another south of marker E.

Since the road is a major throughway into town (heading south), visibly is very good and the road surface itself is in very good shape. The posted speed limit is 45 mph.

Scenario 1: The Street Race

Let's say it is late at night and two cars are getting off the Interstate. Let's pretend it's a Camaro and an M3. They are both want to head south. Both cars approach marker A at a high rate of speed, brake, execute the turn and are WOT all the way through marker B, C and E.

At marker A, both cars are at 10/10ths. Both cars also moderately oversteer when going WOT. They exit the turn at roughly 40 mph.

At marker B both cars are traveling at approx. 65 mph.

At marker C both cars are traveling at approx. 85 mph.

By marker E, the Camaro is an LS1 and begins pulling ahead of the M3 at over 100 mph.

I don't think anyone here would disagree that the scenario described above is very dangerous. Even though it is night and traffic is very light, significant danger points can occur at each marked point:

The two cars can collide at A.
One or both cars can spin or understeer and fall off the road at A.
One or both cars can collide with a car entering the road at B or C or even coming from D.
One or both cars can fall off the road at E. (100+ mph)
At anytime, both cars can come upon slower traffic and fail to pass safely, resulting in a collision.

Scenario 2: Spirited Driving

It is a weekend day and a single driver in Miata exits the Interstate. Traffic is light and visibility is good. He happens to have the light and brakes into marker A, carrying more speed through the turn than he normally would in traffic. He executes the corner at 8/10ths.

At marker A, the Miata is neither understeering nor oversteering. There is available grip at both ends for a panic stop. The driver squirts the throttle, but lets off before approaching marker B.

At marker B, the Miata is traveling at the 50 mph (speed limit is 45 mph) and maintains the speed until marker C.

At C, the Miata slows and executes a left turn towards marker D. Once again, the driver gets the light and corners at 8/10ths. The car is balanced and well within grip limits. Throughout the wide turn, the Miata maintains 38 mph and slows as it approaches D. (the speed limit on this street is 35 mph)

This example displays the difference between all out street racing and spirited driving. It is my opinion that while both scenarios are more risky than "normal" driving, the first scenario involves much higher speeds and is far more dangerous than the second.

The key difference is the speeds when approaching danger zones. In scenario 1, the cars are at WOT. In 2, the car is doing close to the speed limit. The difference in reaction time and vehicle control between the two situations is VAST. The driver's judgment is also significantly impaired from adrenaline in 1 vs. 2.

FULL DISCLOSURE: Yes, years ago, I used street race occasionally. It's dumb. Now, I'm not going to stand on a soapbox and point fingers at people for doing something I used to do myself. But I will say that I believe scenario 1 is FAR more dangerous than 2. And that while I never indulge in 1 anymore, I occasionally indulge in 2. I also thank my lucky stars that I never hurt or killed anyone when I was young and doing stupid things.

These days, I probably pass up a street race every few weeks --seems lots of people want a go at the M Roadster; it's just not worth it to me anymore.


M

 

[Duke]

Invisible + rep for that post. You can has cookie.

NOW, can the people who seem unable to grasp the concept of "spirited street driving" understand what we're talking about?

 

[Alfaholic]

In terms of my own: Car control.

In terms of the car's: Ability to respond to my inputs, and without mechanical failure.

What parts of your car control do you indulge when driving spiritedly, that you do not indulge when driving normally?

What are you doing, when driving spiritedly, that brings your car closer to the point that it would fail to respond to your inputs, assuming no mechanical failure?

I find it quite difficult to go round corners at 127mph. If speed is all you are concerned about and I can't corner at 90% of my speed then straight lines are the only remaining option.

I've found some corners very easy to negotiate at over 125mph. Others, I am quite sure I would be unable to, and indeed haven't tried. Whether or not I was racing at the time or just enjoying the drive, was irrelevant to my assessment of the risk at the time, and to the level of risk I was willing to take.

Let me ask you a question here.

Imagine I am approaching a right-hand bend. I'm doing 60mph, on the left-hand side of the road (the driving side in the UK). The bend has clear visibility throughout - I can see any traffic approaching the bend from the other side - but is sharply curved to the right, at about 70 degrees.

How can I pass through the bend at 20mph normally but 30mph spiritedly, without increasing the relative pressure on the throttle (or "speeding up") at any point during the events mentioned in this question?

That's an easy one. Brake until you're doing 30mph, then stop braking.

However, if you normally negotiate that bend at 20mph, but one day feel spirited and negotiate it at 30mph, then you are, on that day, by your standards, driving fast. You have speeded up from a normal negotiating speed of 20 to a current negotiating speed of 30. Not speeded up relative to your entry speed on this specific occasion, but speeded up relative to your established norm.

Sorry, just noticed ///M-Spec's post. Here are my just - as - likely rebukes:

Scenario 1:

Both drivers negotiate the exit road at around 7 tenths because they're not actually used to driving their cars fast. They are getting excited because it feels like they are going really quick but they're not actually putting their vehicles under particular stress, at least at this point. Then the straight bit arrives. Drivers reach 80odd mph approaching one of the junctions. Driver A feels the risk of pressing further is too high, does not want to die, and backs off. Driver B wins, and either backs off, or continues to accelerate despite no longer racing. Most of the street races I've seen end this way.

Scenario 2:
Driver is in a Camaro, not a Miata, to keep the playing field level. He enjoys endulging in a bit of opposite lock, as many enthusiasts do, and is thus at ten tenths on the exit road, unsettling the car by lifting off slightly before gassing it to exit the slip road neatly on a quarter turn of opposite lock. Driver gets a rush and keeps the boot in all the way down the road. He gets to the junction and is doing 80odd mph when self preservation kicks in, and he backs off.

Your scenarios work only because the two racers are lunatics in fast cars, and the spirited driver is a hairdresser in a slow car. It could just as easily be two hairdressers in scenario 1, in a race where one chickens out at 60mph, or a lunatic in scenario 2 for whom spirited driving means enjoying every last ounce of his car's ability while relying on God or sheer skill and catlike reflexes to keep him out of trouble.

 

[TheCracker]

Your scenarios work only because the two racers are lunatics in fast cars, and the spirited driver is a hairdresser in a slow car. It could just as easily be two hairdressers in scenario 1, in a race where one chickens out at 60mph, or a lunatic in scenario 2 for whom spirited driving means enjoying every last ounce of his car's ability while relying on God or sheer skill and catlike reflexes to keep him out of trouble.

I look forward to reading ///M-Spec's reply to this.

 

[///M-Spec]

Your scenarios work only because the two racers are lunatics in fast cars, and the spirited driver is a hairdresser in a slow car. It could just as easily be two hairdressers in scenario 1, in a race where one chickens out at 60mph, or a lunatic in scenario 2 for whom spirited driving means enjoying every last ounce of his car's ability while relying on God or sheer skill and catlike reflexes to keep him out of trouble.

What if I told you the M3 driver from scenario 1 and the Miata driver from 2 were the same person? Me.

And the rivalry between two fast FR performance coupes, as well as ego, pride and youthful stupidity prompted me to drive in a manner that I would not have were I alone and simply out to enjoy a good drive. (The Miata was my wife's car I worked in IT, not beauty).

BUT

You do raise a fair point in it that you can have a fairly tame street race and a crazy fool driving stupid without help from anyone else to goad him on. I'm sure it's possible.

HOWEVER, in my 15+ years of driving, not to mention probably a dozen plus street races I've been in (and maybe double that I've witnessed), I think the number of tame races where both parties let up early are a tiny fraction of all races out there.

From my experiences, the vast majority of street races involve much higher speeds, much greater risk taking and generally more drivers of mediocre ability and pathetic lack of judgment than your 2 two hairdressers.

All you have to do is read the various "Kill Stories" web forums from any number of enthusiast sites to get an idea of what people are willing to do to win a race.

http://www.ls1.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=44
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=124
http://www.mustangforums.com/forumid_29/tt.htm
http://www.corvetteforums.com/forumid_19/tt.htm
http://www.sromag.com/boards/forumdisplay.php?f=3

You can also watch videos...
http://videos.streetfire.net/default.aspx

And that's just a few off the top of my head. There's lots more.

"Sprited Driving" means different thing to different people. You can't assume that because one person's definition of spirited driving means taking unacceptable risks, that every person who uses the term will do the same.

I'm not going to speak for Famine, but I would expect that his version of "spirited driving" is closer to my scenario 2 above than your version. He does drive a hairdresser's car too you know


M

 

[Joey D]

Your second scenario could still end badly for you and while it is not as dangerous as your first scenario it still isn't something you should be doing on a public road. If you want to have fun with your car but not beat it up do some auto crossing (it's the only racing I know of that is understandable under warranty as well). They are cheap to enter and you can drive at whatever pace you like.

I still disagree with you who think spirited driving is ok on the public road and I think just because some of you own cars which are fun to drive (hell I own a car fun to drive) you are trying to justify your actions as mostly harmless. Ok maybe some spirited driving isn't as dangerous as some street races but there are increased risks with both and you shouldn't be doing it on the road. As I've said I am guilty of this but I realise it is wrong to do and I know I shouldn't be doing it, I'm not going to attempt to justify other then I have a fun (for me) car and sometimes I forget this stuff belong elsewhere.

Think about it this way, you take a corner in a more spirited fashion which causes a control arm to break, you go sailing into on coming traffic and hit another car. There are always factors you can not account for and it only takes one small mistake to end up in a sticky situation that you could have avoid by just driving normal.

 

[Alfaholic]

What if I told you the M3 driver from scenario 1 and the Miata driver from 2 were the same person? Me.

You're an ex lunatic who turned to hairdressing?

And the rivalry between two fast FR performance coupes, as well as ego, pride and youthful stupidity prompted me to drive in a manner that I would not have were I alone and simply out to enjoy a good drive. (The Miata was my wife's car I worked in IT, not beauty)..

Both were choices you made at the time. If winning was important enough for you to take risks which you would not otherwise have taken, then I am happy that you were lucky enough to see those risks pay off. It does not, however, mean that all, most or even some other street racers are willing to take the same risks. These two instances also imply that you never raced anyone without backing off when you felt you were at extended risk, and that you have never while alone explored the limits of your car, or indeed your girlfriends. I would be surprised if this is the case, particularly as the M-Roadster's most popular feature was its accessible oversteer.

You do raise a fair point in it that you can have a fairly tame street race and a crazy fool driving stupid without help from anyone else to goad him on. I'm sure it's possible.).

You have understood my point correctly, though I'd say it's common rather than possible, despite your observation below:

HOWEVER, in my 15+ years of driving, not to mention probably a dozen plus street races I've been in (and maybe double that I've witnessed), I think the number of tame races where both parties let up early are a tiny fraction of all races out there.

From my experiences, the vast majority of street races involve much higher speeds, much greater risk taking and generally more drivers of mediocre ability and pathetic lack of judgment than your 2 two hairdressers.

I also agree that (from experience) it's more common to find less talented drivers, more interested in their car's performance than their own, involved in impromptu street racing. They often just want to prove their car is faster, and will often bale out before the first corner, partly because they are mediocre drivers. Drivers who enjoy a "spirited" drive more often will be enthusiasts, who are more interested in their own performance, and these will explore the car's limits of grip more often. Also, I'd wager that they tend to be more interested in corners than straights, because these require more skill to negotiate...... but only when travelling quickly.

All you have to do is read the various "Kill Stories" web forums from any number of enthusiast sites to get an idea of what people are willing to do to win a race.

http://www.ls1.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=44
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=124
http://www.mustangforums.com/forumid_29/tt.htm
http://www.corvetteforums.com/forumid_19/tt.htm
http://www.sromag.com/boards/forumdisplay.php?f=3

You can also watch videos...
http://videos.streetfire.net/default.aspx

And that's just a few off the top of my head. There's lots more. .

It wouldn't take much work to come up with a similarly extensive list of "all my own work" single vehicle accidents caused when the driver who thought he was at 8 tenths found out he was actually at 11.

"Sprited Driving" means different thing to different people. You can't assume that because one person's definition of spirited driving means taking unacceptable risks, that every person who uses the term will do the same.

I'm not going to speak for Famine, but I would expect that his version of "spirited driving" is closer to my scenario 2 above than your version. He does drive a hairdresser's car too you know .

Agreed that it means different things to different people, in so much as street racing does. I suggest that the differences in both cases can be measured in commitment and risk assessment / tolerance. However, to be included it in this thread and compared to street racing, "spirited driving" must carry an accepted definition. Otherwise no comparison is possible, in which case it is impossible to say that street racing is more dangerous.

I personally have made no assumption that spirited driving means taking unacceptable risks, but I do feel that many, including Famine, have made that assumption about street racing, and I believe this is an incorrect stance. I think that's a generalisation, and that dangerous driving should be recognised for what it is, where and when it happens, and that it is not by neccessity a bedfellow of street racing. Certainly, this practice provides motivation, but so does spirited driving. Which brings me to my extended discussion with Famine:

Even if Famine's description is closer to the lonely hairdresser scenario, it still requires an increased pace, or driving fast compared to what that person would normally do in that scenario. Whatever else spirited driving is, it involves driving faster than you normally would. Noone has yet offered any description of spirited driving which involves practices that the same driver would not indulge in while driving normally, but does not involve driving faster.

Perhaps his responses to my last set of questions will provide this information.

 

[///M-Spec]

Your second scenario could still end badly for you and while it is not as dangerous as your first scenario it still isn't something you should be doing on a public road. If you want to have fun with your car but not beat it up do some auto crossing (it's the only racing I know of that is understandable under warranty as well). They are cheap to enter and you can drive at whatever pace you like.

I believe 8/10ths driving is perfectly reasonable so long as there is good visibility, room for error, and the driver is competent (some high performance training, such as a DE or auto), such as scenario 2 above.

My personal definition of 8/10ths a) chassis mostly loaded and b) minimal slip angles. In other words, the car is still moving in the direction the wheels are pointing. There is no sliding. The tires don't even make noise.

9/10ths is where noise and slip angles occur. That's where I draw the line for 99.9% of public road driving. Of course 10/10th is the absolute limit which I believe should never be used except for emergency situations.

And you are aware that I've been autocrossing for years, right? And during the time where we had the Miata and the M3 were also my most active years, right?

I still disagree with you who think spirited driving is ok on the public road and I think just because some of you own cars which are fun to drive (hell I own a car fun to drive) you are trying to justify your actions as mostly harmless. Ok maybe some spirited driving isn't as dangerous as some street races but there are increased risks with both and you shouldn't be doing it on the road.

Same as above; I disagree. Within the context described above, 8/10ths is acceptable risk. It is not perfectly safe. It is more risky than 2/10ths. But it is not reckless.

As I've said I am guilty of this but I realise it is wrong to do and I know I shouldn't be doing it, I'm not going to attempt to justify other then I have a fun (for me) car and sometimes I forget this stuff belong elsewhere.

Then why are you harping on me for it?

Think about it this way, you take a corner in a more spirited fashion which causes a control arm to break, you go sailing into on coming traffic and hit another car. There are always factors you can not account for and it only takes one small mistake to end up in a sticky situation that you could have avoid by just driving normal.

A control arm snapping in the middle of a turn? That's a reach of a stretch, don't you think? The possibility of this happening is utterly minuscule. The Miata was a bone stock, well maintained car with less than 40,000 miles on it when we bought it, not some clapped out POS with 500,000.

And I thought I had clarified that in both scenarios, visibility was good and there was little to no traffic?

Let's pretend for a second that a car came out of nowhere. Hell, let's go worst case scenario and say that a runaway felon in a Bronco II (white, of course) came flying down the road at 90+ mph with State Troopers in pursuit.

Take a look at the map above. Do you really think that at 8/10ths, driver paying attention to his surroundings in a light, good handling car with decent tires and brakes could not see vehicles flying down the road (from pt E) and do whatever he needs to do to remove himself from a situation?

You'd have to be comatose not to see them. And if you were comatose, you shouldn't be behind the wheel anyway.


M

 

[Joey D]

Just because I have done something does not make it right, and I, unlike most of you, realise that I shouldn't be. If it's not safe you shouldn't be doing it on a public road, I understand that now and I don't understand why you guys can't see it. It' reckless driving no matter how you look at it, and if you were pulled over in the process an officer would see it in the same manner.

And a control arm snapping isn't a stretch, I've seen newer cars break due to faulty build quality. If not a control arm what about a burst tires? My point was many things can happen and you have to be comatose not to see that.

And I honestly don't care what you have been doing for many years, experience does not prepare you for everything you meet on the road way.

 

[///M-Spec]

Both were choices you made at the time. If winning was important enough for you to take risks which you would not otherwise have taken, then I am happy that you were lucky enough to see those risks pay off. It does not, however, mean that all, most or even some other street racers are willing to take the same risks. These two instances also imply that you never raced anyone without backing off when you felt you were at extended risk, and that you have never while alone explored the limits of your car, or indeed your girlfriends. I would be surprised if this is the case, particularly as the M-Roadster's most popular feature was its accessible oversteer.

In the encounter with the Camaro, I backed off when it was clear the other car was going to outperform me. This started to happen near the top of my 3rd gear, which in an E36 M3 is roughly ~95. In these days, where the average performance car has in excess of 300 hp, speed contexts are usually not decided until the 60-100 mph range.

And in years past, my definition of 'spirited driving' is a bit looser than it is now, and definately contained some 10/10th cornering. I was generally far more reckless behind the wheel than I am today.

As for these days, let's just say I expect to get plenty of tire life from the Contis on the my Z4 M. As I wrote in my reply to Joey, 8/10ths is the max I am willing to do on the streets. 10/10th is saved for sanctioned events.

You have understood my point correctly, though I'd say it's common rather than possible, despite your observation below:


I also agree that (from experience) it's more common to find less talented drivers, more interested in their car's performance than their own, involved in impromptu street racing. They often just want to prove their car is faster, and will often bale out before the first corner, partly because they are mediocre drivers. Drivers who enjoy a "spirited" drive more often will be enthusiasts, who are more interested in their own performance, and these will explore the car's limits of grip more often. Also, I'd wager that they tend to be more interested in corners than straights, because these require more skill to negotiate...... but only when travelling quickly.

It wouldn't take much work to come up with a similarly extensive list of "all my own work" single vehicle accidents caused when the driver who thought he was at 8 tenths found out he was actually at 11.

Agreed that it means different things to different people, in so much as street racing does. I suggest that the differences in both cases can be measured in commitment and risk assessment / tolerance. However, to be included it in this thread and compared to street racing, "spirited driving" must carry an accepted definition. Otherwise no comparison is possible, in which case it is impossible to say that street racing is more dangerous.

Fair enough. You make your point well, though I think without getting to serious statistical analysis both our arguments will be hard to prove. I think racing leads to much more reckless and dangerous behavior. You don't see it that way. Without meaningful facts, and a proper interpretation, it's all conjecture. Agreed?

I personally have made no assumption that spirited driving means taking unacceptable risks, but I do feel that many, including Famine, have made that assumption about street racing, and I believe this is an incorrect stance. I think that's a generalisation, and that dangerous driving should be recognised for what it is, where and when it happens, and that it is not by neccessity a bedfellow of street racing. Certainly, this practice provides motivation, but so does spirited driving. Which brings me to my extended discussion with Famine:

Even if Famine's description is closer to the lonely hairdresser scenario, it still requires an increased pace, or driving fast compared to what that person would normally do in that scenario. Whatever else spirited driving is, it involves driving faster than you normally would. Noone has yet offered any description of spirited driving which involves practices that the same driver would not indulge in while driving normally, but does not involve driving faster.

Perhaps his responses to my last set of questions will provide this information.

You'll have to ask him.

Just because I have done something does not make it right, and I, unlike most of you, realise that I shouldn't be.

I don't know whose posts you've been reading, but I just got done telling everyone I used to do stupid things. I didn't try to pass it off as okay, I didn't ask for forgiveness or a pat on the back. In fact, I used my own actions as an example of something NOT to do. If I think it was wrong, I will say so. If I don't think it's wrong, I won't.

But I happen to think driving responsibly and driving spirited are not mutually exclusive activities. Why should I apologize for that?

If it's not safe you shouldn't be doing it on a public road, I understand that now and I don't understand why you guys can't see it.

Driving is inherently dangerous. There is NOTHING safe about it. Every time you get in a car and start the motor it is calculated risk.

I reject the notion that if you spend your whole life driving "normally", you're somehow in behind an invisible "safe" line and the second you begin to move towards the limits of your vehicle, you automatically cross this line. I think that is an oversimplification because it ignores context.

It' reckless driving no matter how you look at it, and if you were pulled over in the process an officer would see it in the same manner.

8/10ths is hardly reckless. Cops don't even pay attention unless tires are squealing.

And a control arm snapping isn't a stretch, I've seen newer cars break due to faulty build quality. If not a control arm what about a burst tires?

A control arm snapping in the middle of a turn is a total stretch. If the arm were faulty, it would much more likely break when the car encounters one of the bagillions of potholes on the roads out there.

A burst tire will not cause a vehicle to spin out of control unless the driver completely overreacts like the people who rolled their Explorers. I've HAD a tire completely burst on me while driving at 65 mph. It was a non-event. The only exciting thing about it was my cursing.

Your proposed catastrophic emergencies are not limited to taking a corner at a decent clip. They can happen at 75 mph on a highway too.

My point was many things can happen and you have
to be comatose not to see that.

Seriously, man. What's with the attitude?

And I honestly don't care what you have been doing for many years, experience does not prepare you for everything you meet on the road way.

How patronizing. Gimme a break.

And driving at 2/10th your whole life will? What about the thousands of people who die each year while NOT 'driving spiritedly'?


M