Legal Street Racing?

[Joey D]

And that's not even including the millions who watch it on TV and the amount of ad dollars it brings in.

 

[Alfaholic]

Why does street racing have to be any more dangerous than spirited driving? Surely the danger is controlled entirely by the risks the individual driver is willing to take, or by the individual driver's failure to assess the risks present at a particular time?

If "spirited driving" involves exploring the limits of your vehicle, then it is no less risky than street racing. If you want to drive in a more spirited manner than normal, you are driving with a smaller margin for error than you normally would. Your intention, however, is unlikely to be to crash, or to take risks that you are not sure you will get away with. If street racing, your intention is to beat the person you are racing against. To do this, you need to drive in a more spirited manner than normal, explore the limits of your vehicle, drive with a smaller margin for error, and not crash.

The risk has everything to do with the driver and nothing to do with the motivation. The driver is the one who makes a risk assessment, correctly or incorrectly, and the driver is the one who decides whether or not to gamble safety against chance. The driver will make these decisions regardless of whether they are racing someone else, or simply exploring their car's performance more than normal. It also has nothing to do with the scenery, which would be the same in either case.

I know people who like to drive fast, and crash a lot, and people who like to drive fast, and don't crash. I've raced against both types on track too. Those that crash a lot crash a lot whether driving alone or racing. Those that don't crash, don't crash regardless of the environment. My opinion is that this is representative. Some just assess risk better than others, or take less risk than others, and will do so whether enjoying a spirited drive, or trying to beat the guy in the next lane.

 

[Famine]

Why does street racing have to be any more dangerous than spirited driving?

Spirited driving is still driving. You're still assessing risk at every moment - the speed you can safely take that corner, what the bloke coming the other way is doing, whether there's a cyclist round the bend doing something stupid.

With street racing you add another factor - someone else. And so long as any of your focus is on someone else, your ability to assess risks is diminshed.


The public road is a place which allows you to get from one place to another and to practice your driving skills within a set of laws. A track is a place which allows you to practice your driving skills within a more relaxed set of laws and with a greater margin for error.

 

[Joey D]

I still don't understand why spirited driving is seen as any less dangerous. You are still driving beyond what you really should be doing on the road and there are a lot of unaccounted for hazards like debris around a corner or a deer jumping out from the woods. If you have an issue with street racing then you should have an issue with spirited driving, excessive speeding on the highway, or anything else that puts yourself or others at risk on the road ways.

 

[TheCracker]

Spirited driving doesn't have to be, and often isn't, anywhere near driving on the absolute limit of you or your vehicles 'talents'

Racing by definition is about beating someone else and therefore esculates beyond what is acceptable on the road. I often drive home from work in a 'spirited' manor without doing anything which breaks the law, which includes driving within the 40mph speed limit which covers most of my route.

 

[Joey D]

It doesn't have to be, just like racing someone off the light up to the speed limit doesn't have to break any law either. Most of the time however it is dangerous.

 

[Famine]

I still don't understand why spirited driving is seen as any less dangerous. You are still driving beyond what you really should be doing on the road and there are a lot of unaccounted for hazards like debris around a corner or a deer jumping out from the woods. If you have an issue with street racing then you should have an issue with spirited driving, excessive speeding on the highway, or anything else that puts yourself or others at risk on the road ways.

You don't have to exceed the speed limit - or even the safe speed limit (which isn't in legislation) - to do spirited driving...

Nor is it intrinsically dangerous - I have a friend who is a police high-speed pursuit driver and trainer. He has clearly stated, many times, that if driving fast and breaking the speed limit were not safe, he wouldn't do it even if it meant losing the suspect - he'd quite like to see his family when he clocks off.

 

[Joey D]

You don't have to exceed the speed limit - or even the safe speed limit (which isn't in legislation) - to do spirited driving...

Nor is it intrinsically dangerous - I have a friend who is a police high-speed pursuit driver and trainer. He has clearly stated, many times, that if driving fast and breaking the speed limit were not safe, he wouldn't do it even if it meant losing the suspect - he'd quite like to see his family when he clocks off.

Then by that logic, just by adding another car in the lane next to you doesn't make it dangerous either. I'm still failing to see why spirited driving is ok, and street racing is not...unless you do some rather unexciting spirited driving. I'll admit when I got the Mini I found some nice a twisty roads and did some, what I would consider, spirited driving. Was it safe? Well I didn't crash and I never went over the posted limit but it very well could have ended badly if there would have been a disable vehicle around the corner or if there was gravel in the road.

I'm not saying speed kills and I'm not saying people should quit doing "spirited driving", I just don't understand why it's not dangerous to do. Anything other then the legal limits is dangerous on the road, even if you and your car can handle it, there are plenty of other people who can not.

 

[Famine]

Then by that logic, just by adding another car in the lane next to you doesn't make it dangerous either.

You have to add that into your field of risks. If you're not very good at assessing risks, that's a bad thing.

I never went over the posted limit but it very well could have ended badly if there would have been a disable vehicle around the corner or if there was gravel in the road.

And from the sound of it, you aren't.

Rule 1: Always be sure you can stop in the distance you can see to be clear.

If you'd come around a corner and not been able to stop in time to avoid the "disable vehicle", you were driving too fast.

 

[TheCracker]

Then by that logic, just by adding another car in the lane next to you doesn't make it dangerous either.

It makes it dangerous because you are no longer driving upto what you perceive as safe, you are driving upto and beyond a level that someone else thinks they can beat you at.

 

[Joey D]

You have to add that into your field of risks. If you're not very good at assessing risks, that's a bad thing.

Which many drivers aren't, which makes spirited driving just as dangerous. I'm sure there are people who good at assessing risks, both in spirited driving cases as well as in street racing, I'm more worried about the people who aren't.

And from the sound of it, you aren't.

Rule 1: Always be sure you can stop in the distance you can see to be clear.

If you'd come around a corner and not been able to stop in time to avoid the "disable vehicle", you were driving too fast.

You can never know 100% certain what you might meet on the road. You could have driving the same path 50 times and still there are always unforeseen obstacle like pot holes, dead animals, fallen tree limbs, etc.

I can assess risks ok and I haven't had a close call or thought I was going to crash when in the Mini, but after thinking about everything that could have happen I'm not going to do it, even if I know the road like the back of my hand.

 

[TheCracker]

You can never know 100% certain what you might meet on the road. You could have driving the same path 50 times and still there are always unforeseen obstacle like pot holes, dead animals, fallen tree limbs, etc.

Which is exactly why you should always drive at a limit where you can either stop or avoid any obstacles you may or may not come across in the road. Which is exactly why street racing, where two cars could quite possibly be driving alongside each other at similar speeds, becomes dangerous.

 

[Alfaholic]

Spirited driving is still driving. You're still assessing risk at every moment - the speed you can safely take that corner, what the bloke coming the other way is doing, whether there's a cyclist round the bend doing something stupid.

With street racing you add another factor - someone else. And so long as any of your focus is on someone else, your ability to assess risks is diminshed.


The public road is a place which allows you to get from one place to another and to practice your driving skills within a set of laws. A track is a place which allows you to practice your driving skills within a more relaxed set of laws and with a greater margin for error.

I disagree. The risk assessments you mentioned for spirited driving also hold true for street racing. Having someone trying you beat you into that corner does not diminish your ability to assess how quickly you can negotiate it, or to consider if there is a cyclist on the exit doing something stupid. Any racer will tell you that you must focus on your own race. If you focus on a racer in front, you will do what they do - including crashing. Their actions, or reactions, to you, will be no more or less dangerous than those of members of the general road population in your vicinity but not voluntarily engaged in a race with you, as they too will find you harder to predict if you are not driving at an average pace.

As for the last paragraph: You can race without breaking any laws except "no racing". You might likely break a speeding law or two, but so will the majority of people driving normally.

Both spirited driving and racing are best practiced on the track. On the road, making any pace faster than what is appropriate for the conditions and laws increases risk and makes you less predictable.

Which is exactly why you should always drive at a limit where you can either stop or avoid any obstacles you may or may not come across in the road. Which is exactly why street racing, where two cars could quite possibly be driving alongside each other at similar speeds, becomes dangerous.

There is no such speed. If you're doing 10mph, a structure at the side of the road could unexpectedly collapse in front of you at such a point that you cannot avoid it. At 0mph, you can be rear ended unless you're parked in your garage. Assuming you actually are moving, the safest speed is the same speed as the traffic around you moving in the same direction as you. Hence, it follows that someone driving alongside you, whether racing you or not, poses a lower risk than the other traffic in your vicinity if either you are travelling faster than them, or they are travelling faster than you.

Expect the unexpected doesn't mean think of everything that could possibly happen. If that were possible, then there would be no unexpected to expect. It means be in the best possible state to react to the unexpected. So when that one thing you hadn't thought of pops up, your nominal escape route has already been planned. You already know if you can brake hard without being rear ended, or if it is safe to move into the opposing lane. You have both hands on the wheel and are in a gear that gives reliable engine response if needed. You are then in a position, hopefully, to make a quick assessment of your new situation and react very soon.

Street racing is not intrinsically any more dangerous than driving fast without competition. You are free to take the same risks either way. There's nothing in street racing that forces you to negotiate a corner faster than you feel is sufficiently safe.

 

[CraftyLandShark]

And that's not even including the millions who watch it on TV and the amount of ad dollars it brings in.

Yeah, it's safe to say NASCAR is pretty much woven inextricably into American society. Last I heard, it pulled ratings second only to the NFL in terms of sports.

It'd be great if there were more demand for a series like ALMS - if so, it could expand its relatively limited schedule. For now though, hardcore U.S. roadracing fans are going to have to be conent with ALMS and the various SCCA and NASA series.

 

[wfooshee]

. . . .

I'm not saying speed kills and I'm not saying people should quit doing "spirited driving", I just don't understand why it's not dangerous to do. Anything other then the legal limits is dangerous on the road, even if you and your car can handle it, there are plenty of other people who can not.

Who said it wasn't dangerous? Driving hard, even on a road by yourself, no traffic, no animals, no weather, can still be dangerous. Tire fails, you go over a cliff. Boom! Tranny blows and dumps oil, you spin backwards into a tree.

But driving by yourself, along a road you know or are trying to learn, within reasonable risk limits, can be very satisfying and enjoyable. Don't do it with a passenger unless you like the smell of digestive fluids. I spent many an afternoon in college throwing a car around dirt roads, and I learned some things from it. I NEVER went out into Dukes of Hazard mode right off the bat in an unknown car on an unknown road. And if the car was sideways, there was plenty of room to get it wrong. If there wasn't room, I was behaving myself. See, it usually was my roommate's car. . .

What we're saying is that by gathering people together to compete, you change the formula. It's not about personal satisfaction any more. It's not a private enjoyment of the kinesthetics, the feel of the tires talking to you through the steering wheel, the shifter, clutch and gas in harmony, that perfect 4th to 2nd heel-and-toe downshift. What it's about now is beeing seen, and being faster than the other guy(s). Nothing else matters. And that "nothing else" includes the safety of people and property in the area being used, even your own safety. When nothing else matters, stupid things happen.

The motorcycle community is going through a period right now where experienced riders are getting to the point where they won't organize group rides any more. A group ride is not a race, not a competition, and every effort is made to make sure everybody knows that it's OK to be last one up, it's OK to be slower, and it's expected for you to "ride your own ride." There's even supposed to be an experienced rider assigned to be "tail-end Charlie" and stay behind everybody else, so nobody gets left or lost. Nevertheless, there's a sharp upward trend in people hurting themselves and others on these rides by getting in over their heads, sometimes just a mistake in judging a curve or a braking distance, but sometimes just getting in too deep trying to keep up and not look bad.

The street is no place for posing. Besides, when you crash while posing, what do you look like then?

 

[frestkd]

Has any one heard of the Silver State Classic?

 

[wfooshee]

There's a difference between street racing and organized road racing. Especially when the road race isn't head to head, but a time trial.

Part of the LeMans 24 race course is public highway, but it's not a street race, is it?

The famous Eau Rouge at Spa is an intersection of public roads. Is the Belgian Grand Prix a street race?

Any World Rally event. . . .


My post was made on the interpretation of the previous post pointing out that the Silver State Classic uses public roads, and is thus a "street race."

 

[Famine]

On the road, making any pace faster than what is appropriate for the conditions and laws increases risk and makes you less predictable.

Making pace appropriate for the conditions (which includes hazards) is pretty much the exact definition of spirited driving.

Street racing is not intrinsically any more dangerous than driving fast without competition.

And what has spirited driving got to do with driving fast?

 

[niky]

Amen to that... I thought I posted here at the same time as Famine (shame on me for creating a thread and disappearing for a few days... spent some time sitting in the back seat of a drifting M5... awesome stuff), but that post is gone... must have hit the wrong button.

"Spirited" driving can be 7/10ths, 8/10ths or full attack. It's not any more dangerous than mountain biking. Which means: yes, you can kill yourself, but you have to be extraordinarily stupid to do so.

Street Racing, on the other hand, is racing. Any time you have cars wheel to wheel on the racetrack, even if you're not supposed to be "racing" (as in a free track session), having that other car on track just eggs you to go that little bit faster. I've seen some guys go off just trying to keep up with a car that had more grip and composure than their car did.

Add to the fact that Street Racing occurs on public roads, and you've got motorsport's equivalent of the "Running of the Bulls". You never know what's going to hit you, or where it's coming from, but when it happens, you know it's going to be bloody.

 

[nk4e]

So Street racing is a area that "isn't" well organized and Racing is a area that is Too organized?

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Racing's not too organised, if people don't like the precautions then why are they even driving? Can hardly take too many precautions with your life.

 

[Alfaholic]

Making pace appropriate for the conditions (which includes hazards) is pretty much the exact definition of spirited driving.

You definition of spirited driving is different to mine then. I call the above "driving normally".

And what has spirited driving got to do with driving fast?

What does spirited driving mean to you then, that might differentiate it from an enthusiast driving normally and enjoying it because they like driving? Assuming you believe that spirited driving involves a departure from the same person driving normally, then what does that change of behaviour involve, if it does not involve a change of pace? My old Alfa had wonderful steering feel at 10mph, but while that meant navigating around a carpark in that car was enjoyable, I personally wouldn't call it "spirited driving" unless I was navigating with haste. If your definition of "spirited driving" has nothing to do with getting closer to the car's limits than you normally would, and is instead just driving normally but enjoying it, why is it even being compared to street racing?

[What we're saying is that by gathering people together to compete, you change the formula. It's not about personal satisfaction any more. It's not a private enjoyment of the kinesthetics, the feel of the tires talking to you through the steering wheel, the shifter, clutch and gas in harmony, that perfect 4th to 2nd heel-and-toe downshift. What it's about now is beeing seen, and being faster than the other guy(s). Nothing else matters. And that "nothing else" includes the safety of people and property in the area being used, even your own safety. When nothing else matters, stupid things happen.

It could be about the personal satisfaction of winning. It could be spirited driving with an excuse / goal. What about a street race forces nothing else to matter, including personal or public safety? What stops feeling the tyres talking to you and 2nd gear slotting in easily from being all that matters at the expense of concerns for personal and public safety? In either case, the driver is free, and indeed responsible, for the risks they choose to take, whether it's going around a corner on the wrong side of the road on a blind bend in order to get the lead, or whether it's ignoring the trees lining the side of the road in order to enjoy that moment when the rear wheels just start losing grip and the steering weight changes and goes all springy? In both cases the driver can make an error in judgement of pace for the surroundings, is perfectly free to take elevated risks either voluntarily or involuntarily, and is perfectly capable of cocking it all up and wrapping it around the next available immovable object. If the driver's willing to risk it all to win a road race, they're also willing to risk it all while enjoying an empty road.

 

[Famine]

You definition of spirited driving is different to mine then. I call the above "driving normally".

What does spirited driving mean to you then, that might differentiate it from an enthusiast driving normally and enjoying it because they like driving?

I wouldn't even approach 10% of either my car's abilities, nor my own, driving normally. I try not to approach 10% remaining of either while driving spiritedly.

Assuming you believe that spirited driving involves a departure from the same person driving normally, then what does that change of behaviour involve, if it does not involve a change of pace?

I didn't say it didn't involve a change of pace - I was asking why "spirited driving" necessarily meant "driving fast".

Let me put it another way - driving at 100mph on a (70mph limit) motorway. That's just driving fast. It isn't driving spiritedly.

And another other way - last time I went on track, I don't recall seeing my speedometer exceeding 85mph (though it may have nudged higher, but I was in the braking zone for a chicane, so wasn't really looking down at my speedo). That certainly was driving spiritedly, but wasn't really all that fast - and despite other cars being on the track, I wasn't racing either.


You seriously can't see any differentiation between driving fast, driving spiritedly and street racing?

 

[Alfaholic]

I wouldn't even approach 10% of either my car's abilities, nor my own, driving normally. I try not to approach 10% remaining of either while driving spiritedly.

How would you achieve this without speeding up?

 

[Joey D]

I still fail to see what you guys consider driving spiritedly is. I would say taking a curve with a suggest 35mph at 50mph (on a 50mph limit road) is spirited.

And no I do not see a difference in doing that over racing someone off a light or going 30mph over the limit. All have an increased risk of something happening to you or someone around you. You can say risk assessment all you want but no one can be 100% certain on things.

 

[Famine]

What if the safe speed for that corner on the 50mph limit road was actually 34mph?

How would you achieve this without speeding up?

I didn't say it didn't involve a change of pace - I was asking why "spirited driving" necessarily meant "driving fast".

 

[TheCracker]

I still fail to see what you guys consider driving spiritedly is. I would say taking a curve with a suggest 35mph at 50mph (on a 50mph limit road) is spirited.

Spirited driving isn't about speed. It's about getting enjoyment through driving your car well. It's perfecting your heel and toe downshifts, clipping the corners apex to perfection, feeling the car on it's tippy toes on the threshold of traction. It's about getting out of your car with a smile on your face. It's not about thrashing it to within an inch of it's life, you can keep that for the track.

 

[Joey D]

What if the safe speed for that corner on the 50mph limit road was actually 34mph?

What? It's not speeding if the limit is 50mph and you take the corner at 50mph. The suggested speed is 35mph. I don't know if you have that in the UK but here we have yellow signs that give you suggested speeds for things, which is up to you to follow or not. However, if you crash on a corner and they can prove you were going faster then the suggested speed you can get nicked for it.

Spirited driving isn't about speed. It's about getting enjoyment through driving your car well. It's perfecting your heel and toe downshifts, clipping the corners apex to perfection, feeling the car on it's tippy toes on the threshold of traction. It's about getting out of your car with a smile on your face. It's not about thrashing it to within an inch of it's life, you can keep that for the track.

That sounds dangerous to me and honestly I can see just as much risk coming out of that as I can with flooring it off a stop light with some guy next to you. If you are on the threshold of traction then you shouldn't be on the road doing whatever the hell it is you are doing, and if you are driving like that then you should be fined with reckless driving.

 

[TheCracker]

I drive a rolley poley Forester, the threshold of traction is relatively low, i could be just infront of a police car driving on the threshold of traction and the police wouldn't even notice.

 

[Joey D]

At the threshold of traction you could easily make a mistake, yes we are human we do those, and be into a tree, another car, a lamp post, or a pedestrian you didn't see. I still honestly can not believe you guys will sit here and harp on street racers (who are wrong) but then say you are fine with someone (like yourself) who go out on the public streets and drive in a spirited manner. You guys are just as bad.