Lemons Season 4: Next Race on 29 November

  • Thread starter Vol Jbolaz
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I think reservation needs to be held till later. The reward change wasnt forced on you all. There was an interest thread and an open invitation for ideas for nearly 2 weeks. If folks had a concern that was the time to voice it. If you dont/didn't, you have no right to complain. Some of you just want to show up, not have to think about anything, and be led around blindly by spooky father figures. We dont judge seasons...in any sport, based on the first 25%. This season has started off with much negativity and from what...two races??

Yes, it was my idea, but if you had any original thoughts of your own...name them.. Most of us read the thread, the trouble is half the room says "good job/bad job" and never gives explanations for their reasoning.

There are 5 races left and if you went into the season realistically thinking you had the skill to win, I dont see why that would be gone. Some of you may have had a plan...great, but plans are worthless unless you have knowledge of every other plan being implemented and you adjusted yours for them. At this point...aside from the awesome van...every car has a chance to be a winning car for the last two races. My advice to all is to have your car be the expected winner on race 6 and not race 1-5. Race 7 will be a drafting crapshoot so toss it out.

chuyler1
I think that about sums it up. Given the current standings, the following is true:

Scenario 1: 10th + 1st = 33pts and 21,000 cr for race 3.
Scenario 2: 1st + 10th = 33pts and 1,000 cr for race 3.
Click to expand...


If a driver at that point, can't place mid pack for a couple races and take the 5-7K and to improve their car and come out on top...they didnt have a chance to start with.


leadbedr
I think the cash needs to be less.
20k for 10-16 is too much.

Maybe make the points gap bigger and the cash lower.
Click to expand...

I agree with this sentiment. There is very little incentive to consistently finish high up the list, BUT at some point we need the poorer drivers with ALOT of money to place higher up otherwise giving them money is pointless.

NO SYSTEM FOR GIVING THE LOSING DRIVERS MORE MONEY IS WORTH A 🤬 IF THEY CANNOT WIN!! Thats truly the problem.We are doing all this work for 3-4 drivers in hopes they will, at least a couple times a season, occupy the podium spots. Then they have an accident and it ends up more times than not that the same drivers are in the top 5 week in and week out. Look at the championship standings from Season 1 to now and you'll find the same 4-5 guys are near the top and not because their car in the end was best. Accident avoidance should be top priority along with driving under pressure. There are folks who will have 70K+ in their car, but if you can hang around them for a couple laps, they're likely to fold. Bettering yourself there goes a lot further than squeezing a second off hot lap times.

For this system to be successful, the talent gap between drivers needs to be a lot smaller. There is no way to candy coat it. If you are going to have to give a driver 20K to finish in a particular position, you have to be open to the possiblity that someone with skill will land there as well and think "jackpot."
 
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diabolicwyvern
We are doing all this work for 3-4 drivers in hopes they will, at least a couple times a season, occupy the podium spots. Then they have an accident and it ends up more times than not that the same drivers are in the top 5 week in and week out. Look at the season standings from day one the same 3-4 guys, Wiifreak, Chuyler, myself, bowtie..sli3ghtaru when he has a connection, are near the top and we dont get there having an amazing car. Accident avoidance and remaining calm are key and even if folks have 100K more in a car, I think I'll beat them if they are likely to crumble if tailed for a couple laps.
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I agree. As I pointed out, I had second last week and qualified fifth this week. In the end, I didn't finish very well at all.

The only thing I can think of is to abandon the long race. Last week, I did go for 36 of 46 laps.

But short races may not helpd. This week, I only went for 13 of 36 laps before my first wreck. During the preseason race, i was wrecked out on lap three.
 
How about giving everyone the same number of points, but requiring engine limiting or added weight to podium drivers? I know there is no way to police that sort of thing and we have to hope people are honest, but if they feel the need to cheat its on their conscious.

Here's a positive to take from this season so far...at least the lines of communication are open and folks who dont post all that much are talking.

:gtpflag:
 
I've always felt the reward system was to allow drivers to run garbage cars in hopes that they could bring them to the podium. I never intended to equalize skill to the extent others seem to thing should happen. I just wanted bad cars to compete with good cars and allow a very minor bump in speed to drivers that had trouble keeping up otherwise.

The mid-pack chaos we had the first 5-10 laps of last night's race is what I would like to see all season long.

I suggested multiple times and had at least one pole about lowering reward money. I think 10k, or even 5k maximum would promote closer racing throughout the series and not just race 2. It might take novice drivers longer to make it to the front, and there is still the chance of sandbaggers, but cars will build up speed more gradually keeping them closer in performance.
 
diabolicwyvern
How about giving everyone the same number of points, but requiring engine limiting or added weight to podium drivers? I know there is no way to police that sort of thing and we have to hope people are honest, but if they feel the need to cheat its on their conscious.

Here's a positive to take from this season so far...at least the lines of communication are open and folks who dont post all that much are talking.

:gtpflag:
Click to expand...

does point equal cash or performance points?
 
I'm confused as to why people are counting out dabney, Cujo, diablo, (and whoever else is top 4, sorry I forgot you.)

5 races left, and look at the points gap. 1st place is double the points of 10th. I love this new points system, because by the time every passes the top 4 in points, they will be gaining 10-15k EACH RACE.

Think. Dabney is 1st.
Next races:
12th- 6th in points 10k
8th- 7th in points 12.5k
6th- 6th in points 10k
2nd- 4th in points 5k
1st- 2nd depending how others finish.

You see? They're still in it. Hell, the sprint race will give me a shot to contend for points if I win it. Les do this. IKEA ELITE!
 
Just to go off on a tangent for a bit...

Something I would like to see, but something that I have no way at all to enforce or police or protect against exploitation, is a balancing session.

To explain: we have a qualifying session. Everyone turns up and puts in their lap times. We then set a good median lap time. Everyone needs to adjust their cars so they can consistently run that time. Some may have to add ballast, some may have to add power. Then we have the race.

During the race, there is still tire management and drafting and good cornering verses good speed. There is still the accident avoidance issue (and something dawns on me here. In qualifying, I was doing 1:40s. I even did the occasional 1:39. In qualifying, I don't care if I wreck. I push the car. In the race, I'm trying not to wreck, so I was doing 1:42s. Mind you, since I'm not fretting over wrecking in the qualifying, I don't wreck. but in the race, as soon as I try to get back to the 1:40s, I wreck. Three times. Maybe if I had a car that I could take at a relaxed pace and keep up, I'd wreck less often.)

Really, the idea of the cars getting better of the season isn't the appeal to me. I don't care if we do the entire reason on comfort soft tires. I just wanted the season to end with all the drivers very close. I wanted to go into the final race of the season and say, "I have no idea who is going to win this race."
 
I joined right before the season started, so I never participated in the discussions regarding the rewards system. Given that I am in last, I'm not complaining about the current system, but I definitely see the flaw in that it promotes sandbagging early. I have an idea that would work better for next season, but I'm not sure how you would really police the system, so it would probably have to be on the honor system.

Rather than using a cash rewards system, how about a PP limit system. For race 1, everyone would have the same PP limit. Starting with race two, everyone gets a small PP allowance based on their position in the standings. Maybe just go in reverse, 2nd place gets 1 extra PP, 3rd gets 2 extra PP, etc. It would reset every week, so every week the guys lower in the standings have the faster cars, but unlike the cash award system, you lose you advantage more and more as you work your way up in the standings. I guess you would have to have everyone tune their cars to a higher PP, then use power limiter or ballast to get down to whatever your limit is for each race.
 
Won't work, as you can totally change how a car drives and how well it is on tires with just a small amount of ballast or engine reduction.

Besides, we've been at a higher PP. The series was decided in 3 races, and I hate a 400pp lemons car. Keep it low, keep em slow. B)
 
The lap time idea is novel but I don't think it will work. Even if we had penalties for driving faster than the target lap time during the race, we would still get sandbaggers who install more parts and intentionally hang back until the final sprint to the finish. I don't like the idea.

We talked about the PP limit system before. I think it has potential, but it will put more focus on tuning for your set pp limit and less focus on just driving your lemon. What I love about this series is battling with my car as I add power and forgo niceties like a decent suspension.

Oh, and I'd love to do the entire season on comfort tires.
 
Vol Jbolaz
Just to go off on a tangent for a bit...

Something I would like to see, but something that I have no way at all to enforce or police or protect against exploitation, is a balancing session.

To explain: we have a qualifying session. Everyone turns up and puts in their lap times. We then set a good median lap time. Everyone needs to adjust their cars so they can consistently run that time. Some may have to add ballast, some may have to add power. Then we have the race.

During the race, there is still tire management and drafting and good cornering verses good speed. There is still the accident avoidance issue (and something dawns on me here. In qualifying, I was doing 1:40s. I even did the occasional 1:39. In qualifying, I don't care if I wreck. I push the car. In the race, I'm trying not to wreck, so I was doing 1:42s. Mind you, since I'm not fretting over wrecking in the qualifying, I don't wreck. but in the race, as soon as I try to get back to the 1:40s, I wreck. Three times. Maybe if I had a car that I could take at a relaxed pace and keep up, I'd wreck less often.)

Really, the idea of the cars getting better of the season isn't the appeal to me. I don't care if we do the entire reason on comfort soft tires. I just wanted the season to end with all the drivers very close. I wanted to go into the final race of the season and say, "I have no idea who is going to win this race."
Click to expand...


Whats the difference in that and just doing spec racing
 
I wasn't saying we should go to a higher PP limit. Say we set the PP limit to 350, every tunes their car up to 365 PP without any power limiter or ballast. Then the leader uses power limiter or ballast to cut down to 350 PP, 2nd place goes to 351 PP, etc. You could limit other tuning options like only allowing a fixed sport suspension, close ratio transmission, no adjustable LSD, etc. that way there's no real tuning other than deciding whether or not you're getting down to the PP limit by power limiter or ballast, thus focusing on driving rather than tuning.
 
Wow, alot has been said on a lot of different concerns. I am completey new to this series and had no input to the structure of this season (nor would I have considering my lack of experience in previous seasons). Here are a couple of my thoughts based on what has been said.

Sandbagging: I just don't understand this at all. I personally would rather not win the championship by racing my butt off every week then win and have lumped my way around for a couple of weeks. I was unbelievably pissed last night at my poor driving and what I felt was my best shot at getting a race win with what seemed to be the fastest CAR.

Brings me to the next part. Last night was a perfect example of a CAR not being the sole reason for a win/loss. Hands down in practice my car was the fastest on the track. Trying to be conservative as a driver caused my first wreck, and choking under pressure of getting caugh up caused my second wreck. BTK's car was much slower than mine, yet he was smoother and more composed.

Points/Cash reward system: I would rather be in Dabney's place than mine any day. This goes back to my comment about sandbagging. For 2 weeks his average performance has been straight up better then the rest of the group (something to be proud of at anytime in the season). He did much more with nothing last night than I did with everything.

What drew me into this series was the possibility of a level playing field. With the exception of my lack of driving ability last night, I would say that I am an average/average plus driver who can usually hold my own in the middle of a competitive pack. Like mentioned, I think last night was a good chance for me to beat some really great drivers like Wii and BTK because my car was better. Perhaps there are better ways to try and create this scenario though. I think some of what is being criticized about the points/rewards system dates back to the original season of Lemons to Le Mans. If the focus is more on Lemons and close racing now, then perhaps the cars need to remain lemons. Something to consider might be doing away with the rewards and adding parts to the cars. Instead, what about picking a starting PP, say 345 or 365. Buy a car below that, add some parts if needed (no ballast, no detuning, no suspension/trans etc.) just as we started out with. The car stays the same the entire season in terms of what you have. (This may also help create a more interesting field of cars since no one will be worried about what the car will be like all maxed out). Everyone would start out on comfort soft tires. The "penalty" for doing well would be a change in tires. You could either do just the winner, or maybe the podium, all have to drop a tire for the rest of the season. So after race 1, the top 3 would be committed to comfort mediums. After race 2, the top 3 would drop tires. If you were on the podium twice, you would be on comfort hards for the rest of the season. The speed of the car persay won't be that different, but the car will handle quite a bit differently creating slower lap times (hopefully more equal lap times to the rest of the field).
 
chuyler1
I've always felt the reward system was to allow drivers to run garbage cars in hopes that they could bring them to the podium. I never intended to equalize skill to the extent others seem to thing should happen. I just wanted bad cars to compete with good cars and allow a very minor bump in speed to drivers that had trouble keeping up otherwise.
Click to expand...

Who are the "others" in your statement? Skill will never be equal. The money was to equalize the standings. Bad cars...half of GT5 players couldnt distinguish between a good or bad car. They'll run basically the same lap times in cars at equal PP and think they are a good mix.

This idea of a bad car making its way through the ranks sounds a bit to Disney straight to DVD for me. A bit to rose-colored. An aging jalopy faces his toughest task, making his way through the field, modern cars in his wake, for the ultimate prize. That whole underdog thing is a bit idealistic and worthless really because half the field is involved in accidents.

Would you ever consider using a junker in a room full of Wiifreaks in Polo GTIs? Heck no, but in this room you know its possible to do well not because your making the car better over time, but because half the room will have visited the pits before you.
 
Diabolic wins.

I've tried doing the underdog thing for 2 seasons. I always picked a car that was neat, and fast. And guess what, BTK comes up short. Doesn't make sense, especially last season when I played it straight. Last race, and all of a sudden I'm out when I did nothing wrong all season. Just not enough car or points.

I'm sure people are upset for me picking out the Jazz (since I'm apparently at wiifreak status in driver skill. Wtf.), I'm here to win. No messing around anymore.

Let's stop penalizing others for being better, dabney put it best two pages ago.

Nut up and race!
 
Or start to swing the cash towards the winners ?

If you're consistently winning, and trying to win, then you should start to get some money for 1) showing up and 2) trying hard to be competitive.. that would take some of the sandbagging out of it. Not sure how it would work, but there needs to be a reason to push for the wins early on, and keep the momentum going.

Maybe there should be some cash for pole, instead of points? Or cash for slowest average lap/last in qualifying.

I do agree that something should change, but why not just play out the season and see how it goes before getting crazy about it after the 2nd race. There's no proof that those who have 1k cash won't do as well as those with 33k cash...look at WiiFreak - he came 2nd last race to me, who had a much faster vehicle.

Huyler was what - 4th? Based on that, there's no reason not to think that if you (general you..not only huyler) race a good race, you'll finish well!

Cujo - you banged up your car really badly..if you hadn't, maybe things would be different ?

Maybe there needs to be a combination of cash for series leaderboard placement (a "subsidy" to help those low on the leaderboard get back into the game..the whole *cough*socialist*cough* idea about leveling the playing field), and go back to per-race winnings...which definitely does make sense, since you do get prizes for how you perform in individual events in real life.

Maybe those should be lower then - 10K for 10-16, +5k subsidy ? That way you can award cash to the winner (eg: 5K), and 2nd place gets 1K...which makes it better to *win* than come in 2nd. Imagine that...a reason to win!? And don't forget...10-16 still gets $15K (+?), before saying that the winner will just walk away with it.

PS: this was all written after reading to the end of p.24, not realising that p.25 was full..
 
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leadbedr
Whats the difference in that and just doing spec racing
Click to expand...

It is possible I don't understand spec racing. My understanding of spec racing was everyone has the same car. If you are a slower driver, you lose. Always.

In the real world, you have to be good. There are different divisions of racing and stuff, and you have to at least be good enough before they even let you race. So when you get to serious racing, all of the drivers are competent and there isn't a huge gap in skill level.

I will never be that good. I will never be fast enough to qualify to be in any serious racing league. So, move on.

I can't find a way to keep the good drivers out. And if I could, I'm afraid I'd wind up with a field of really bad drivers wrecking each other. (I'm not fast, but I have been trying really hard to not be a menace. As a result, I can't remember the last time I wrecked someone else. That is progress. Now, if I can just keep from wrecking myself.)

So the reality is, I'm going to have to drive with drivers that are just faster than me. The only way I can actually race with them and not drive by myself on the same course, is have a better car.

It may not be possible, but again that is my goal. Some way that poorer drivers get better cars so the field is closer. And I honestly don't care if the poorer drivers never win the championship, just as long as they actually get to spend time racing. (I did get to do that for 36 laps last week. Mind you, I was driving the cheater car of the season, the one that was much faster. There was a point at which all the Beetles were 1, 2, and 3 last week.)
 
Look at chylers! Example. The exact same points for the EXACT SAME FINISHES and some drivers are $30000 grand ahead of other drivers. And yea dab is way out front but he has to bomb two races in a row to drop low enough in this dumb system to get enough cash! Any system where the WINNER of the previous race gets more money than someone, like myself, who could do no better than 10th!! Seriously absurd.
 
pyxen
Or start to swing the cash towards the winners ?

If you're consistently winning, and trying to win, then you should start to get some money for 1) showing up and 2) trying hard to be competitive.. that would take some of the sandbagging out of it. Not sure how it would work, but there needs to be a reason to push for the wins early on, and keep the momentum going.

Maybe there should be some cash for pole, instead of points? Or cash for slowest average lap/last in qualifying.

I do agree that something should change, but why not just play out the season and see how it goes before getting crazy about it after the 2nd race. There's no proof that those who have 1k cash won't do as well as those with 33k cash...look at WiiFreak - he came 2nd last race to me, who had a much faster vehicle.

Huyler was what - 4th? Based on that, there's no reason not to think that if you (general you..not only huyler) race a good race, you'll finish well!

Cujo - you banged up your car really badly..if you hadn't, maybe things would be different ?

Maybe there needs to be a combination of cash for series leaderboard placement (a "subsidy" to help those low on the leaderboard get back into the game..the whole *cough*socialist*cough* idea about leveling the playing field), and go back to per-race winnings...which definitely does make sense, since you do get prizes for how you perform in individual events in real life.

Maybe those should be lower then - 10K for 10-16, +5k subsidy ? That way you can award cash to the winner (eg: 5K), and 2nd place gets 1K...which makes it better to *win* than come in 2nd. Imagine that...a reason to win!? And don't forget...10-16 still gets $15K (+?), before saying that the winner will just walk away with it.

PS: this was all written after reading to the end of p.24, not realising that p.25 was full..
Click to expand...

Had I not banged up my car I would've finished higher and gotten less and been in the same boat and dab. I already know i have to start and park next week.
 
FR and FF cars are apples and beef. You can't compare the two when the majority of one takes a pit stop and the majority of others do not in a short hour long race. Anyone wish to practice accident avoidance, I mean racing on London, sometime this week?
 
Cujo 940
Pyxen. You are ahead of me with oodles more cash... Case in point.
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yeah, but we already went over that.. I have a modicum of talent, so give me some cash, and a decent car, and I should be competitive. Not to mention the fact that it's only the 2nd race.

I knew I'd come in last in the first race...strategy or no, it's what I knew. I also knew what I'd get out of 20K of upgrades... I tested DF/R before we even raced Tsukuba..

and lets not forget I'm driving a van! I didn't choose a Polo or Lupo or New Beetle... I kinda needed the cash :P
 
I think damage has to be set to minor for London. With no pit stop available, I don't want drivers losing the race in the first turn.
 
Full damage with no way to pit and fix it? I don't think that would be fun. Even if you drive carefully, some accidents just can't be avoided. In this week's race I was trying to be extra safe since I was using a controller and couldn't be very smooth. I was doing fine until you spun at the entrance to the first tunnel. I went wide to avoid you and you ended up backing right into my path and we both came to a dead stop against the outside of the tunnel. Full engine damage.

Who's going to stay in the race next week if they get engine damage? It might not be quite as bad since it won't be an hour long race, but I still vote for light damage.
 
Ahhh, did not remember no pitting. I thought chuyler just meqnt people wouldn't pit as the track will be easy on the tires
 
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