Lemons Season 4: Next Race on 29 November

[chuyler1]

Build to a lap time would be great...except drafting can improve your lap time so it would be hard police. But if we build to lap times...its not much different than just turning boost on and giving drivers a little extra speed to stay toward the front when they fall behind. I'm not saying we need to use boost...I'm just saying boost equalizes the field so that it becomes a race of strategy and position as the final laps play out.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

Build to a lap time would be great...except drafting can improve your lap time so it would be hard police. But if we build to lap times...its not much different than just turning boost on and giving drivers a little extra speed to stay toward the front when they fall behind. I'm not saying we need to use boost...I'm just saying boost equalizes the field so that it becomes a race of strategy and position as the final laps play out.

And I really should be in support of boost. I know I should. It does make sense. And I do want to make it to one of the boosted endurance 450 nights.

But for some reason I'm against. I keep telling myself, I need to not wreck. I need to do a better job of driving slower and cleaner and avoiding wrecks. With boost on, I can still wreck and catch back up.

Which I should like, cause I know I'm going to wreck.

 

[leadbedr]

I dont think boost is a good idea for lemons.

 

[spooble]

I'm down for a quick boosted season. Maybe 3 weeks... 2 x 30 minute races each week? Throw some type of handicap system in there to see how it works with boost. I think 6 races should be a good enough sample size to see if it's fun or irritating. I have a suspicion that I will really enjoy the racing, but be upset because I'm never able to pull ahead in the end to get a podium spot.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

I'm down for a quick boosted season. Maybe 3 weeks... 2 x 30 minute races each week? Throw some type of handicap system in there to see how it works with boost. I think 6 races should be a good enough sample size to see if it's fun or irritating. I have a suspicion that I will really enjoy the racing, but be upset because I'm never able to pull ahead in the end to get a podium spot.

Well, I am too busy this month to do anything. I'm barely making the races we have scheduled. But maybe we can sacrifice January to some evenings where we just test different ideas.

 

[chuyler1]

I'll be on tonight. Everyone grab one of your 345pp cars that you didn't used this season. I'll run a few 10 minute races, all on the same track. Maybe GVE-R since most of us are familiar with it and is mostly flat out anyway. Be prepared to add as much as 30pp in bolt-ons to whatever car you pick. A small amount of power reduction is OK for getting the car to exact values but please don't go crazy with it. I will probably pick a slow car to see how things work moving from the back to the front.

 

[spooble]

I might be able to hop on late. I'm going to grab a beer after work. Still using the controller so I should provide a good example of a "bad driver".

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

I'll try to make it tonight, but I doubt I can. Write up the results. And...

normally in sprint races, the damage is low or off. Keep the damage on full. If you wreck, you are out. Don't wreck! I'd rather see drivers driving clean and within the limits of the cars and balance everything that way, than to see drivers being wild because it is a ten minute sprint or because they are just so good they can be a menace and drive with damage cause twitchy is their style.

 

[chuyler1]

Yes, damage will be on, qualifying will consist of just a few laps and giving drivers enough time to adjust their handicap. I will keep notes and dictate pp handicaps over the mic between races.

 

[chuyler1]

Room is open. Grab your 345pp car and join in.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

The testing was fantastic. It actually re-energized me for another season.

 

[chuyler1]

Tonight was very informative. Although we only had 4 drivers we learned a lot.

* 10pp is enough to bring some cars to the front and overcome skill issues
* 20pp is enough to bring a bad car to the front and/or overcome skill issues
* Even with a 20pp skill, drafting kept cars close on the track and made for some interesting 3-wide situations

Scoring came out almost dead even, but I realized I made a mistake and gave Nic only 5pp one race instead of the 10pp he should have received. That probably messed up the entire scoring for the night but in the end it still would have been close.

After 7 races everyone was within 1 point of each other...
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AmN50XYhoI9OdFRTUDNReEdyaUxqWGRmeWZWMVpnZ0E&output=html

Race 1, my car was very slow
Race 2, my car was still slow
Race 3, I was able to confidently run at the front
Race 4, I lost my edge and couldn't compete even though I was only down 5pp
Race 5, I was back on top
Race 6, to the back again
Race 7, was very close and I might have pulled off 2nd maybe even 1st if it were longer.

So basically I needed all 20pp in the Civic to be a front runner, but I never finished too far back when I had a little handicap.

A few other items we talked about...

* Applying negative pp to driver/car combos that are simply too fast and continuously perform well with no additional pp.

* Having a regular season where pp fluxuates with the above rules but then a post-season where the pp is fixed for several races and set based on averaging the pp required for your top X finishes. The math for that isn't fully hashed but I think it could make for some intense racing once everyone has their optimum handicap set.

* multiple races per night to allow drivers a 2nd chance to race, sometimes with a different handicap.

 

[Nicktune]

I've never been over 350...I probably didn't hear. (I don't have a headset...the communication are not clear).I was at 350pp for Race 6 and 7 ...

It should make some nice race with this system...the last few races were very close.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

The spreadsheet says we were doing -5, -5, 10, 10. I thought we were doing -5, 0, 10, 10. I wonder if it would work with -5, 0, +5, +10? I also wonder if 3 PP steps would work (-3, 0, +3, +6, +9)?

 

[chuyler1]

It's hard to know for sure how well this will work in a full grid but I thought a boost of 10pp was necessary for my car and then subtracting 5 after I did well brought back more of a challenge. I could not win on that track without the full advantage despite having a good line through turn 1-2.

I think we need the 10pp boost to get cars close to their handicap but once they achieve a decent finish, we drop to a more granular interval. Something like... +10, +10, -5, +5, -5, +5, etc. it quickly ramps you up to your appropriate handicap then makes smaller adjustments from there.

One thing is clear though, a 20pp window is more than enough to account for car and/or driving handicaps. No one left the final races last night with the impression that they were in situation where they didn't have a chance to win. Well, except maybe Nic, but he should have been at 355pp for a few of those races.

I would like to do one more night of testing and hopefully get maybe 8-10 drivers involved.

 

[diabolicwyvern]

Darn. Promised the wife I wouldnt play game last night and instead put up decorations...lame. Anybody up for another testing session? tonight? tomorrow? Im ready with an hour or so notice! Low power, crummy tires and a bag of chips makes for happy evening

 

[chuyler1]

I am free again tonight around 9:45-10:00. Should we continue to use GVE-R or maybe switch to Laguna Seca?

 

[dabneyd]

I'll be there tonight. I vote Laguna.

 

[spooble]

I ended up having 2 beers and didn't get home until late last night. Should be able to make it tonight, though.

 

[leadbedr]

I should be able to make it.
I think we should stick to GVR R for at least 2-3 races. We know what the good lap times are for there.

 

[diabolicwyvern]

well, my evening has taken a turn as my inlaws invited themselves over to look at my hard work putting up the tree and decorations. They are bringing dinner...I might not be on till a bit later. whose lounge?

 

[chuyler1]

Meet in my lounge. Feel free to drop in before I arrive and get things started. I'll be on around 9:45 EDT. Diabolic, drop in when you can. I'm going to do my best to track results after each race and assign handicaps. If you have trouble hearing me the rules will be...

Finish in the top half:
Subtract 5 pp from your car, unless you are at 345 in which case you stay the same.
Finish in bottom half:
Initially add 5pp to your car until your first finish in the top half. Otherwise add 5pp to your car until you finish in the top half again.

I will read down the list of pp drivers should be at after each race. If you can't hear me, type something and I will type your pp for the next race.

 

[dabneyd]

I will read down the list of pp drivers should be at after each race. If you can't hear me, type something and I will type your pp for the next race.

I'll plug in a keyboard and try to type out the PP level as chulyer says it so he doesn't have to do double duty.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

I'll plug in a keyboard and try to type out the PP level as chulyer says it so he doesn't have to do double duty.

Does that work? Can I plug in any USB keyboard?

As to tonight, I doubt I can make it. But I will try, because having a full room will help. Having four last night was very good, but having more will be helpful.

This is not limited to the current Lemons drivers (Bowtie, Trackbound, others?). Please, come help but test this.

There is no guarantee that we'll use this system next season. I know Bowtie wants to run a series but he may not be interested in this. I'm still debating what to do (though I do favor this over the cost-based structure). It is entirely possible we may have two Lemons series again in January but they will be working on different rules.

Huyler, as to halves, do you want to do top half -5 and bottom half +5, or do you want to do top quarter -5, second quarter stay the same, bottom half +5?

 

[dabneyd]

Does that work? Can I plug in any USB keyboard?

Yes.

 

[chuyler1]

Oh yeah, forgot we discussed that. Yes. I would say 3rds.

1. -5 pp
2. -5 pp
3. -5 pp
4. no change
5. no change
6. no change
7. +10 pp (or +5 if they have already reach podium once)
8. +10 pp (or +5 if they have already reach podium once)
9. +10 pp (or +5 if they have already reach podium once)

Obviously depends on who shows up. During the season, it could be broken out by finishing gap. 0-30 seconds behind leader is group 1, 30-60 seconds is group 2, and 60+ is group 3. Those numbers are just hypothetical and based on an hour race assuming group 2 ran about 1+ second slower per lap and group 2 averaged 2+ seconds slower.

Of course the first race is an issue. If drivers that finish 1-3 are at 345 they will basically be no-change like drivers 4-6. So maybe race 1 gives drivers 4-6 +5 and drivers 7-9 +10. After that, things are as stated above.

 

[pyxen]

interesting model...I'll try and come on tonight and test -- last night just wasn't a good one to play.

 

[diabolicwyvern]

Last nights testing was very revealing. With this system a wider range of cars is possible. Plus, it finally appears like consistent fnishes will result in a podium finish. Only 2 of the 8ish races had someone driving away only to have them finish near the bottom next race. My finishes were 3, 4, 2, 3, 5...never fast enough to win or slow enough to lose. It will be interesting how we evolve this system

 

[chuyler1]

Here are the results from last night.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...9OdFRTUDNReEdyaUxqWGRmeWZWMVpnZ0E&output=html

For scoring, I used the NASCAR system where each car you pass is one point. If there were only 5 cars in the race you could only gain 5 points for winning that race while if there were 8 cars you could win 8 points. I also threw out your worst score, but in many cases that was just a race that you missed.

This gave Nic the win for the night but 1st to 5th was spread out by only 5 points and Diabolic pulled off a top 5 even though he missed two races.

My performance:
I was in a car that simply did not run well at Laguna. I was solid middle-pack until an accident put me at the back. The next race I pulled off a win. The combination of those two races was 9 points, if I had been able to stay mid-pack I probably would have earned the same number of points anyway, so the extra 5pp was sort of a reward for my bad finish to keep me on pace. At GVE I was back to mid-pack again. Looking at the points, I think my consistency paid off. If I continued to stay out of trouble, I would eventually get a break or two over a longer season.

Sandbagging:
I think it is obvious that someone can intentionally finish poorly one race to gain an advantage the next race. However, I don't think it gives them a huge point advantage. With 7 drivers, you would have to place 6th to get a power boost and if you placed 1st or 2nd the next race you'd have 8-9 points. You can easily get those 9 points by finishing 3rd or 4th in both races. Since the power boost isn't enough to guarantee a win over a long race, its a big gamble to sacrifice points for power.

Handicap points:
I think we may want to consider more granular changes. I think we can do away with the huge 10pp bump unless drivers really need the help. Most drivers were able to get a podium finish at 345pp and default to the 5pp scale anyway. However moving up and down by 5pp was almost too much of a difference. You could tell which cars had it on the track and it put drivers into distinct groups. Perhaps something like this would mix things up a bit more...

1. -4 pp
2. -4
3. -2
4. -2
5. 0
6. 0
7. +2
8. +2
9. +4
10. +4

 

[chuyler1]

Also, for car selection, I think allowing some amount of power reduction is a must to get exact pp values. As mentioned last night a sport air filter can bump you 6-8pp so it is very hard to add just the small amount necessary to give you some draft-passing power.

Garris said he would prefer ballast, but ballast can often change the dynamics of the car, and I'd like to stay away from giving drivers a tuning advantage on their cars. This is lemons, FR cars are supposed to be tail happy and FF cars are supposed to push.