Lemons Season 4: Next Race on 29 November

[Vol Jbolaz]

450pp endurance tonight at GP/F. Check the thread. Boost on low to keep the racing close.

This does sound like a blast, but between work, the chess club at my son's school, and fighting with stupid christmas lights, I won't make it.

I won't even get to pick parts for tomorrow's race until tomorrow's race.

 

[pyxen]

.,....at least you get to pick parts!

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

I just snuck in some practice and I put in a 1:18.6. But that was crazy fast. That was literally throwing the car into a corner and hoping it comes out the other side. There is no way I'm maintaining that pace during a race. With traffic, tire wear, and the narrow course, I would wreck if I tried.

I hope to get in some mid 1:19s on fresh tires and settle into 1:20s.

I do have enough money for a transmission. I don't think the car needs it, but I'm tempted just to keep it in the power band.

Don't forget, time progression will be on tonight (to 2 I think). We will start in the evening and end at night with fireworks going.

 

[spooble]

I love this track with the wheel, but I'm afraid it's going to suck with the controller since it's rather tight. I think being smooth really helps at the Country Club, too. I think I have enough car to at least finish mid-pack as long as I don't get into any trouble.

 

[diabolicwyvern]

For the first time since the initial race, I think I have a good chance at podium. The key tonight will finally be accident avoidance. Not having to make risky choices during the evening laps should affect the race. Speedwise' Im thinking middle of the pack (high 1'21) in practice but Im very comfortable racing at night so Im looking to make time there. I hope to tail Wii until I have to pit. then who knows

 

[Cujo 940]

Tis the season to be jolly falalala la la la.

 

[dabneyd]

Tis the season to be folly jajajaja ja ja ja.

I don't know what this means.

 

[BTK]

It's a Spanish cuss word.

 

[diabolicwyvern]

Is the track for tonight shared? I'd like some last minute practice

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

Is the track for tonight shared? I'd like some last minute practice

Huyler and I both have it shared.

p.s. I just got on my race car, which has 10 more HP than my test car for some reason, and dialed in the transmission. I did two 1:18s and then a 1:17.9!

When I crash and lose this, I am so going to kick myself.

 

[leadbedr]

Running about 10 minutes late if you can wait. If not no problem

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

Running about 10 minutes late if you can wait. If not no problem

Morbo said he might be late, too. I'll try to hold the start. Hurry up.

 

[morbo]

i probably won't make it tonight

start without me if the time comes

sorry for the late notice

if not, see you next week

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

The field was very spread out last night. I was in second. I was over a minute behind Wii, who was in first. I lapped Diabolic, who was in third. I'm not too excited about the field being that spread out.

The points are interesting. Wii missed the first race, but is now on top of the leaderboard with a 16 point lead over Pyxen. But only 11 points separate Pyxen in second and Leadbedr in 8th, and in there we have two ties.

Actually, there are five points between 2nd and 3rd and six points between 3rd and 8th.

We had several ties last week, too.

 

[BTK]

Wii missed the first race, but is now on top of the leaderboard with a 16 point lead over Pyxen.

Think there's something wrong with your points system, yet?

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

Think there's something wrong with your points system, yet?

Yet? Have you not been paying attention to this thread at all? Do I really need to go through and completely explain it all, again?

Fine.

When you say 'points', I'll assume you mean cash. The point system isn't radically new, and yes, I think there is nothing wrong with the points at all. And no one has raised a legit concern over the points.

As to the cash, as I've said more than once, it needs to be improved. And I'll repeat the ideas that I've had for improvements, but I want to point out two things first.

It isn't my idea. It was Diabolic's. And while it is not perfect, it is notably better than the previous system. We've had no sandbagging this season, and in which season have we had the standings so close?

Things to improve the system:

• We need drivers that will man up and stick it out. Having lost so many drivers has thrown off the results.
• 20K is too much. We need to scale back the allocations.
• The allocation should be based on the last x number of races, and not over the entire season.
• The allocation for drivers with the same points should be the same. If they have a tie in points, we shouldn't go to the tie breaker.

There are other options, too. Allocations get smaller as the season goes on. The idea being the cars are tightened up. Or, the allocation size is not only based on the standings, but in point difference.

 

[chuyler1]

The leader is ahead by 16 points and has a car fast enough to lap all but one other car...

...and you think this was a better system?

None of those suggestions will work. They all end up placing too much weight on the results of the first race. If i run lemons again, it will be a longer series with handicaps based on pp.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

The leader is ahead by 16 points and has a car fast enough to lap all but one other car...

...and you think this was a better system?

None of those suggestions will work. They all end up placing too much weight on the results of the first race. If i run lemons again, it will be a longer series with handicaps based on pp.

Better, yes. Perfect, no.

But it seems neither of us want to go back to old system, so what does that say about the old system? As I've already said (page 30?) that the next time I do this it will be PP based handicapping, so not an original idea that.

Mind you, we can come up with ways to avoid the problem with the first race. It is the only place that one can sandbag (which I did unintentionally, which is why my car is ludicrous now). So, how about some ideas to fix that?

How about assigning more points on that race than others, or assigning less cash on that race than others?

 

[spooble]

I've enjoyed every race this season, though I've had a fast car the whole time since I got booted from the first race. If I had an underpowered car like Dabney, I might be singing a different tune. Last night, I wrecked myself on the first or 2nd lap... pitted... went back out and wrecked myself again. I stayed out with horrible tires since my times had only dropped a couple seconds. Then I went to pit on lap 30. I hit the entrance to the pit which gave me engine damage, and my car proceeded to just do a drive-thru of pit lane without changing tires or fixing the damage. I think without those 3 pitfalls, I would've been in contention for 2nd... maybe even first.

I agree with you guys about using PP as the handicap for next season. WiiFreak was 40-some pp down from me and Garris last night and still won. (Is he an alien??)

The low-boost test was really fun, but I'm not sure how it would work over a season. It makes for great battles, but final pit-stop timing plays a huge role in the finish. Maybe too big. I'm up for more testing, though.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

I've enjoyed every race this season, though I've had a fast car the whole time since I got booted from the first race. If I had an underpowered car like Dabney, I might be singing a different tune. Last night, I wrecked myself on the first or 2nd lap... pitted... went back out and wrecked myself again. I stayed out with horrible tires since my times had only dropped a couple seconds. Then I went to pit on lap 30. I hit the entrance to the pit which gave me engine damage, and my car proceeded to just do a drive-thru of pit lane without changing tires or fixing the damage. I think without those 3 pitfalls, I would've been in contention for 2nd... maybe even first.

I agree with you guys about using PP as the handicap for next season. WiiFreak was 40-some pp down from me and Garris last night and still won. (Is he an alien??)

The low-boost test was really fun, but I'm not sure how it would work over a season. It makes for great battles, but final pit-stop timing plays a huge role in the finish. Maybe too big. I'm up for more testing, though.

Yeah, Spooble and I both took ourselves out on the 2nd lap. Without that, I still think Wii would've won, but I think it would've been much closer. I was faster than Wii for most of the race.

Wii's FR has a tire wear advantage over our FF. Without the wrecks, I would still need to pit twice. Wii only once. The question would be, could I make up that 20+ seconds.

And yes, I could take a FR, myself. But with such weak, old cars, they didn't have the best suspension, so I would wreck much more often.

As to the low-boost test, I'd love to be there. December is just crazy busy. Still though, I have concerns. I think Dabney said he was able to pit three times and still catch back up to the pack.

I guess the question is, am I going for realism or treating it like a video game? Even though I'd lose all the time, I keep saying, I want a hardcore mode. A mode where you can wreck your car and it can't be fixed.

I should give up on that dream, but then it begs the question... what is the difference between an evening with a long low-boost race and an evening with a bunch of little sprints?

 

[spooble]

what is the difference between an evening with a long low-boost race and an evening with a bunch of little sprints?

True. Low boost allows you to wreck, pit, and catch back up which would be the same as wrecking, then starting fresh in the next no-boost sprint 15 minutes later.

 

[BTK]

I suggested we lower the points actually, but you thought the cash would be better. No, I meant points...

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

I suggested we lower the points actually, but you thought the cash would be better. No, I meant points...

Okay, so you really don't like the point system?

Well, there were only two changes. Originally, 10th place and higher was the same points. That has been changed and that is a much bigger improvement. We haven't had anyone park, yet, this season (though we've had some that should've).

As to the points at the front of field, they went from a linear scale to one where each gap is bigger than the one before. This system is actually used by multiple different real world racing leagues.

There is a minor difference, but I think if you go back and recalculate, it won't be that dramatic. I don't see how it is any worse. It is just as good as. The points aren't what is broken.

 

[diabolicwyvern]

The perfect storm was brewing for 1 driver to this point...

Now, anyone who isnt currently running shouldnt be commentating. The biggest problem, and one we cannot fix, is that people are non-committal to online series. They back out for many reasons, some legitmate and some not. Sli3ghtaru if you remember tried multiple SYSTEMS to try and make last season and yet we have folks who boo hoo over rewards, car choice, accidents, mommy and daddy didnt hug them enough...etc.

Because so many people have QUIT, we are now left with drivers who should be getting 15-20K being near the bottom but getting only 7-10K. The chance for rewards is greatly diminished. Had folks not up and left, they'd be holding positions ahead of some of us, divvying out more money to those of us who started strong and needed the late cash surge.

The glaring case is Dabney who has suffered with a pathetic car (no offense) because we've had too few folks to finish ahead of him to force him down the standings. Even if he wanted 20K, it's just not there anymore.

Wiifreak to this point is an outlier. Sorry to say, but when I look back on the season, I will only remember him missing the first race. No doubt he is the best driver, but among us left he's the one more missed the first race. Normally, he would podium early and often and in this system he would still be mid pack with his cars. Luckily for him, by missing he was put into a rewards area that was unequal to his talent.

That aside, the points/rewards system this year that I reccommended has brought out the closest racing to date. Look at the standings!! What more do you want? The field was spread last night because of the difficult nature of the track combined with nighttime driving and ff cars. You'll see next week how different things can be. Any other track last night and Garris/Spooble could have won. Wiifreak, Leadbedr and I all have identical PP but we were minutes apart respectively. Wiifreak is the only one in FR so commentating on how fast his car was...especially if you werent there, is ridiculous. FR cars are more decisive, brake later, have a more aggressive turn in and can maneuver the tricky corners a lot easier.

To prove this point, I ran a bone stock 403PP mazda rx-7 fc '90. By, 3rd lap
I was in the 1'17s. both cars had equal top speed on course, but I lost 4+ seconds rest of way after straight. Even with more power, the FF cars can only run so fast on that course. I ran my tops times all the way up till have 20% of my grip left.

Point being...lets all pipe down about the system. Wiifreak aside and this has been an awesome season and althougt I will lose (and not finish) next race...I'll be there!

 

[chuyler1]

Better, yes. Perfect, no.

See, I disagree. It removed the one-race-sandbag tactic, but it removed skill from the equation almost entirely. Dabney was good enough to win the first race, and that pretty much took him out of the championship entirely. After 5 races he hasn't even been able to crack the top 5. What's the fun in that? 👎 People are going to come and go...so a system that relies on everyone being in attendence every week simply isn't going to work.

I'd absolutely return to the old system instead of this. The old system had sandbagging but if a driver raced their best every race they could still finish well.

I'm not too concerned about the sandbagging. What I like to see is everyone racing wheel to wheel for the majority of the race.

Here's an idea I had...

1) All drivers start at 350pp (this is just an example, we could pick another number to start)

2) Any and all pp-based parts are allowed. Power reduction will be allowed and possibly ballast. Non pp-based parts are outlawed with exceptions (see below)

3) Finishing outside the top 5 will give you a +10pp bonus per race with a maximum of +20pp.

4) If you are at max bonus pp and you still cannot crack the top 5, non-pp parts will be awarded to you like suspensions and transmissions. These bonus parts may only be allowed after mid-season to prevent early season sandbaggers from snagging the parts to dominate the end of the season. Another approach would be to grant them to drivers who fail to crack the top 10 for at least 3 races or something...but anyway, it will take consistent bad driving to get them.

5) Finishing 1-2 will reduce your bonus by -10pp per race but you will never drop below the base pp. Finishing 3-5 will reduce your bonus points by -5pp per race.

4) Base pp may increase as the season progresses or it may stay the same. This is open to discussion...but if it increases, suspensions may be granted to all drivers at certain points to keep vehicles somewhat stable with the additional power and/or grip.

5) Race season will be significantly longer and worst finishes will be removed from your overall record (two, maybe 3 races can be missed). Sprint nights will be part of the schedule.

6) Races may run two nights a week if all participants can be available...or two races will be run per night...something to allow more averaging of finishes.

6) Points will be linear with a gap between top 5 to discourage giving up 5th place to receive bonus points instead:
1 - 20
2 - 19
3 - 18
4 - 17
5 - 16
6 - 14
5 - 13
4 - 12
etc

Sandbagging might still be possible for some drivers to gain their advantage, but with a long season, consistent drivers won't have to bother. There will be plenty of opportunities to crack the top 5 as drivers shuffle up and down the bonus structure and if you can't crack the top 5 with 20 extra pp...then you don't deserve to.

I still have to do some testing to see whether 10pp is a good interval. But this is basically how I would like to run a series. Another thought was adding tire restrictions to frequent top-5ers but i'm not sure its necessary on top of the pp system.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

The glaring case is Dabney who has suffered with a pathetic car (no offense) because we've had too few folks to finish ahead of him to force him down the standings. Even if he wanted 20K, it's just not there anymore.

This is really a huge deal. It really has skewed things greatly. And that is going into my ideas for next season.

And while this week was laps different, last week was solid racing for me for nearly the entire hour.

But, at the end of these Lemon seasons, I wind up with a car that I'm not going to use again. This Beetle, like my Talon, is like a old muscle car, or an AMG. Lots of power, no handling. I'd have to start over to make the car worthwhile.

Something that isn't an appeal to me, but may be an appeal to others, is the cars growing over the season. If that is an appeal to you, I'm sorry, but I'm thinking of ditching it. While the tire progression is fun, I would be just as happy with the whole season run on CS tires.

What I'd like to do is come up with some accurate way to give drivers extra PP as a handicap so they will be close enough to make it fun and compensate for driver ability and car choice. But I'd like for it to only take into consideration how well they ran, when they were running. I got more cash than I should've during the first race because wrecked myself. I had second place, and chances were very good that I would've finished in second. I should've only been compensated for a second place finish, not a last place finish (or whatever it was).

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

Sorry to double post, I was taking so long with my last post that Huyler posted, too.

See, I disagree. It removed the one-race-sandbag tactic, but it removed skill from the equation almost entirely.

I don't think it removed skill entirely. Wii is dominating right now due in large part to skill. Yes, he missed the first race and that threw things off, and that needs to be corrected. But because he has the skill to run an FR car when drivers like me don't, he can beat us with a 40+ PP deficit.

As I mentioned in my previous post, the system is messed up in that it is based on race finish, not race performance. I got more money than I should've in the first race because I crashed.

And I like some of your ideas for the PP based system. Some I don't, but not because I don't think they will work, but because I just don't like them (see previous post about ending a season with a car that I don't care about).

This is my idea so far, and it keeps changing in my mind, so it'll be different next week:

There is a baseline PP (I was thinking 365 PP/CS or 450 PP/SS). Everyone can build a car to that in any manner they want, with any parts they want. Build a car that you really want to drive.

We do two races a night for three weeks. That gives us six races. During those three weeks, we can do points so at the end of the month we can say Bob won January. But we also do something like an Elo system on the side. But, if you wreck, then you don't get that particular race counted in your Elo standings.

We use the Elo standings to determine how big a handicap each driver should get. Everyone has the fourth week off to test their car at their new PP level, and we do another month.

Since it is rolling like that, people can come and go, and it won't matter. If you wreck, you suffer in points and you don't "win" that month. But it doesn't calculate into figuring your handicap, so it puts even more emphasis on driving cleanly.

The big question is... how much of a handicap? That is a huge mystery. It will require a lot of trial and error and a lot of patience. I suspect in the beginning it would be a lot of "Add enough PP so you run a x:xx on X." And as we do that often enough with drivers we trust, then we can figure out how much PP it should be.

Some other things I want to keep in mind:

* I don't want the handicaps to make the poorer drivers better than the good drivers, just enough to keep them closer. That last gap has to be made up by the drivers, not by the handicaps.

* Two different cars at the same PP level driven by the same driver are not equal. That sucks, but it can't be helped. There is no way to make a system that fairly balanced (unless we go to one-make, which honestly isn't but so much fun).

* I imagine this, so far, as something that people can come and go, and at the end of the month would be the easiest time for this. This isn't a problem. What could be a problem is, drivers may want to change cars, so they don't get bored. That is fine, but.. since cars don't behave the same, that will throw off things, since the previous handicap was based on that driver in that car.

* People may get sick of losing for three weeks until the handicaps are balanced. And maybe after the first initial month, the handicaps can be done more often, once we have a bigger pool of data.

Whatever any of us do, it will all require patience, understanding, and positive ideas.

(And I'm going to guess that in the time it has taken me to write this, someone else has posted.)

 

[diabolicwyvern]

every idea will be wrong untill one idea is right! take points out and make it more casual. Move to 400pp. podium drivers lose 5 pp bottom three gain 5 pp. or do tire degradation or weight. find a way to make the reward and penalty the same, but opposite. or winners get certain part, but losers get better tires? what if we used reccommended cars and if u lose u fet the next powerful car, if u win or podium u drop a car on the lost. just spitballin' at the point.

 

[chuyler1]

Perhaps for any system to start out fair, we need specs. 2000cc limit, 1000kg minimum weight, 200hp max, or something to that affect. However, I've seen a few threads about GT5 GrandAm racing and the cars end up with very different final specs just to be competitive with one another.

We've had 450 nights where one car is over 2 seconds faster per lap than anyone else. Call it the NSX affect, but when a restriction is set, there will always a small handful of desirable cars, a handful of acceptable cars, and a whole bunch of junkers.

Looking at the TT seasonal event, drivers in the same car can be 3-5 seconds different per lap in the same car. I'm not sure what average laps would be but from my own experiences, I was often 5-8 10ths off my best time and it takes several laps to put together a good run at your best time.

But that's why I want a system that will build drivers up at one rate and ween them off of their handicap at another rate. I'd even be up for starting this handicapping process prior to the season start so drivers aren't in a position to knowingly finish last on the first race.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

just spitballin' at the point.

Yeah, a lot of this is.

Perhaps for any system to start out fair, we need specs. 2000cc limit, 1000kg minimum weight, 200hp max, or something to that affect. However, I've seen a few threads about GT5 GrandAm racing and the cars end up with very different final specs just to be competitive with one another.

We've had 450 nights where one car is over 2 seconds faster per lap than anyone else. Call it the NSX affect, but when a restriction is set, there will always a small handful of desirable cars, a handful of acceptable cars, and a whole bunch of junkers.

Looking at the TT seasonal event, drivers in the same car can be 3-5 seconds different per lap in the same car. I'm not sure what average laps would be but from my own experiences, I was often 5-8 10ths off my best time and it takes several laps to put together a good run at your best time.

But that's why I want a system that will build drivers up at one rate and ween them off of their handicap at another rate. I'd even be up for starting this handicapping process prior to the season start so drivers aren't in a position to knowingly finish last on the first race.

I like the homogenization over a PP system, but it is a little harder to make things balanced with driver ability to take into consideration.

As to the NSX affect, yes, there are better cars, but the better drivers tend to avoid them (they like a challenge). I run an RX-8 when I can make a 450 night. It is a great car, and I am able to keep up with the rest of the field. If the better drivers were to drive it, they would be several seconds ahead of me. I don't need as much of a handicap in a setting like that, the car is the handicap.

You do bring up a good point with the weening. I'm not a good driver, but I think I am much better now than I was 10 months ago. Not sure how to get a system to work like that. Again, the only thing I can think of is giving people a time limit and having them build a car to that time limit.

Takes lots of faith and is hard to regulate. I know of a drag racing series that does it tough. It is like a regulation time trial. The idea is, if you go too fast, you get a penalty.