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London and England riots
- Thread starter Alex.
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- Mark T33
I doubt that there are many people in poverty in the UK. The word poverty is over used and has lost its meaning. I classify poverty as not being able to afford food, clothing and the materials to live. The benefits system is generous, clothing is very cheap in the right shops (Primark etc.)
The problem is that these people want the most expensive items, they want cash in there pocket. They're not happy to just live and work hard, they want to live like the people they see in music videos.
If you're struggling to get a job, do some voluntary work for a few hours a day, get some experience, meet the right people, get yourself into a working mentality. What would you do otherwise? Sit at home? Roam the streets?
dhandeh
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- 11,390
- England
- dhandes
The poverty stricken unemployed with their blackberry's and iPhone's.
Also the government have only been in power for just over a year, so how can they be sick and tired of them already?
They are probably scared that this government, may force them to earn their money, instead of just having it handed out.
And nothing is that simple.
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- 3,174
- Pinckney, MI
- NISMO_S13
- If I had the money
It's Cher Lloyd's fault. I'm just going with that.
Different kinds of poverty. But even if you can keep yourself alive ok. There is an immense psychological effect on the individual who has less than their neighbours/community or the average person in their country. And with TV and media etc. the impression of comparison comes from the country as a whole. Millions of people will always feel miserable and desperate for immediate change.
Extremely poor isolated people who have perhaps little choice over what food they eat to stay alive can be in a community much happier and a good sense of well being as the whole if that community/tribe is in the same situation, there is no comparison of ease of life.
As humans we destroy ourselves/others when we see difference.
The effect was less troublesome over the last thousands of years, but in recent history with the spread of easy information, everyone knows what's going on and how other people live and can see what they would like to have that others are enjoying.
I'm not really into the details of politics but maybe that's the dangers of capitalism and aspiration. Maybe for the populations sake for it to work there needs to be a medication that treats the need for equality and therefore you can feel settled with a life less rich than others. Some fortunates have the ability to do this naturally, but that maybe from upbringing or genes. We are born to be materialistic.
- 87,820
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- GTP_Famine
Maybe I was thinking to still have the aspiration, for example I would still love to have a home of my own, but that somehow I could never feel sad or "different" in a negative way when I would compare myself to other citizens of the UK. It's an imaginary solution I can't expect a real drug to have that effect. Well not in the foreseeable future anyway.
It would be possible to live your whole life in rented accommodation and not feel down about it. It would free up a lot of mental well being.
The drug can be seen as an idea, not necessarily a real means to achieve the feeling. It could be from other more sensible ways, I just wanted to give the point quickly.
........
Society doesn't need these people, but it's inevitable we as humans behave like that (not many will riot, most just keep it internalised and just feel a bit unhappy as the years go by), it's our nature, and it's controlled by rule of law.
Subtle changes could make massive differences.
It would be possible to live your whole life in rented accommodation and not feel down about it. It would free up a lot of mental well being.
The drug can be seen as an idea, not necessarily a real means to achieve the feeling. It could be from other more sensible ways, I just wanted to give the point quickly.
........
Society doesn't need these people, but it's inevitable we as humans behave like that (not many will riot, most just keep it internalised and just feel a bit unhappy as the years go by), it's our nature, and it's controlled by rule of law.
Subtle changes could make massive differences.
boiltheocean
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If you don't understand that's fair enough. I understand how I feel.
In fact you might be proving my point even.
It means something to me as EVERYONE I know owns their own house. It's ONLY me that doesn't. I have already explained why this is bad.
You say you know HUNDREDS of people that rent. This maybe in a region where many people rent, and they know other people, friends etc that also rent. To them it is not an issue of isolation and community difference.
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boiltheocean
Premium
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Just being defensive. Thought I was under attack.
That might have "an effect". Not ideal I expect, I don't know as neither I have much experience of, but I do treat myself with chocolate and GT5.
The effects are only temporary, apart from putting on weight. GT5 driving takes slightly less calories than chocolate intake sadly.
But the need for aspiration always prevails. Can we assume these rioters are not weed users? Or they might be but use contradicting other drugs too.
- 12,903
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- Moglet85
- Moglet
Aaanyway, the streets seem a lot quieter tonight. No real trouble in Birmingham, not much been reported in any other areas either. Maybe they've finally got bored? I hope it stays quiet over the weekend, I've got a friend's birthday meal to go to!
Dotini
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Here's a snippet from the Guardian. I censored it.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/09/london-riots-kids-parents-police
But the young rioters' grievances with the police, he and his friends agreed, were much more deep-seated. "When you have police officers jumping out of vans, calling 18-year-olds bitches and niXXers; I'm a youth worker, I see it all over.
"That's what's happening. They are thinking, who the fXXk are you? And so it starts," he added.
"You have a generation of kids now that don't respect their parents or the police," chipped in his friend. "When we were youngsters we were made to have respect for the olders. Now if an older was to slap a youth that kid is going to pick up a hammer.
"I was one of these kids but it's bloody hard for them. There's nothing to do at all. University fees have gone up, education costs money. And there's no jobs. This is them sending out a message."
The same depressing picture – a mixture of alienation, anger at the police, boredom and mischief – was reiterated by locals across the Pembury estate. "They just want to be heard," said a young black woman. "This is the only way some people have to communicate."
Were cuts in services a factor? "Course they are. They cut our youth project by 75%. We used to work with gangs, run a workshop that brought police and young people together. Gone.
"That Cameron doesn't know what he's talking about. He's lucky he can get a holiday. These kids don't get a holiday."
Plenty of local young people, of course, were not involved – and many had little sympathy for the disturbances. "I think it was opportunism," said Sarah, 17, who lives behind the Pembury. "I can understand why people would riot in Tottenham but here? I just thought it was a chance for them to cause havoc. It's just an excuse."
"But there is a problem," interrupted her friend Ally, 21. "Growing up here, a lot of young boys, they are constantly harassed and stop and searched. The people, not just young people, they don't like the police. They don't get along with the police. They say the police are no good. They feel like they don't help them. So what was happening, they were just trying to give the police the runaround. Just to piss them off."
Both young women are currently looking for work, without success. "My dad talks about his generation, it was hard for them, but I think it's worse for us," said Ally.
"Definitely some people are just taking a riot that was for injustice and turning it to something that hasn't got anything to do with it. But maybe it's a cry for help as well. People are doing it to be noticed, because there's a problem."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/09/london-riots-kids-parents-police
But the young rioters' grievances with the police, he and his friends agreed, were much more deep-seated. "When you have police officers jumping out of vans, calling 18-year-olds bitches and niXXers; I'm a youth worker, I see it all over.
"That's what's happening. They are thinking, who the fXXk are you? And so it starts," he added.
"You have a generation of kids now that don't respect their parents or the police," chipped in his friend. "When we were youngsters we were made to have respect for the olders. Now if an older was to slap a youth that kid is going to pick up a hammer.
"I was one of these kids but it's bloody hard for them. There's nothing to do at all. University fees have gone up, education costs money. And there's no jobs. This is them sending out a message."
The same depressing picture – a mixture of alienation, anger at the police, boredom and mischief – was reiterated by locals across the Pembury estate. "They just want to be heard," said a young black woman. "This is the only way some people have to communicate."
Were cuts in services a factor? "Course they are. They cut our youth project by 75%. We used to work with gangs, run a workshop that brought police and young people together. Gone.
"That Cameron doesn't know what he's talking about. He's lucky he can get a holiday. These kids don't get a holiday."
Plenty of local young people, of course, were not involved – and many had little sympathy for the disturbances. "I think it was opportunism," said Sarah, 17, who lives behind the Pembury. "I can understand why people would riot in Tottenham but here? I just thought it was a chance for them to cause havoc. It's just an excuse."
"But there is a problem," interrupted her friend Ally, 21. "Growing up here, a lot of young boys, they are constantly harassed and stop and searched. The people, not just young people, they don't like the police. They don't get along with the police. They say the police are no good. They feel like they don't help them. So what was happening, they were just trying to give the police the runaround. Just to piss them off."
Both young women are currently looking for work, without success. "My dad talks about his generation, it was hard for them, but I think it's worse for us," said Ally.
"Definitely some people are just taking a riot that was for injustice and turning it to something that hasn't got anything to do with it. But maybe it's a cry for help as well. People are doing it to be noticed, because there's a problem."
Video evidence of police brutality concerning the riots?
No comment yet from the force involved.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8693310/Manchester-police-confront-suspected-rioters.html
This clip includes a little zoomed in on the baton hits.
No comment yet from the force involved.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8693310/Manchester-police-confront-suspected-rioters.html
This clip includes a little zoomed in on the baton hits.
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- GTP_Spag69
- spagetti69
He slipped.
It's a serious issue. This is on youtube, this is almost a justified excuse to injure police with intent now as far as rioters could be concerned? Not that they needed one anyway beforehand. But now they have fuel to the fire.
Multiple baton hits by more than one officer from someone showing no signs of resistance while on the floor.
You can see why the force have not commented on it.
The police need to apologise asap to show that this is certainly not allowed, or the protocol for policing practice. No matter the situation.
I can imagine the police community being split by this, but all of them wishing it was not recorded for viewing. Although it might make the general public feel punishment is being served, all be it illegally.
...............
On the news today there was discussion about "forcing to the ground".
A strong matter as a totally innocent man was killed by a policeman bringing him to the ground after a baton strike to the legs. And the message is now forced push downs will occur due to necessity of the situation, and they accept that a percentage of those push downs will incur severe injury, but that won't stop them doing it. I can see agreement to that statement, as long as the push is necessary. I think in the case of the video above the push was legitimate to capture the individual. But after that....
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- GTP_Jondot
Interesting Guardian extract ^^^
Trouble is - and say for a minute that said views are telling of the motives behind most if not everyone involved in the riots - any reasoning like that is quickly lost behind the soundbites ITV, the BBC and Sky manage to find: all of which seem to present people commenting as so backwards that they're almost laughable. But of course, it's easier to find someone on the streets of Salford wildly throwing out phrases littered with xenophobia than it is to find another who'll have formed any sort of rational statement.
And that's before you consider the balance of footage floating around - looting's going to be fairly high up on the broadcast agenda, simply because it's somehow more startling to see people walking off down your local high street with TVs and unmentionable pharmaceutical products than it is anything else. I'm not saying any of this rioting is somehow better or worse than other bits, but I think it'd be stupid to suggest that every individual that's been out there over the last few days has robbed a branch of Currys and set fire to an MX-5 - it wouldn't surprise me if a great (if not greater) number were there purely doing things like pushing over bins and intimidating the police, and while neither of those things is exactly indicative of a well thought out or justifiable protest, they're very different from wanton property destruction and pure theft.
Trouble is - and say for a minute that said views are telling of the motives behind most if not everyone involved in the riots - any reasoning like that is quickly lost behind the soundbites ITV, the BBC and Sky manage to find: all of which seem to present people commenting as so backwards that they're almost laughable. But of course, it's easier to find someone on the streets of Salford wildly throwing out phrases littered with xenophobia than it is to find another who'll have formed any sort of rational statement.
And that's before you consider the balance of footage floating around - looting's going to be fairly high up on the broadcast agenda, simply because it's somehow more startling to see people walking off down your local high street with TVs and unmentionable pharmaceutical products than it is anything else. I'm not saying any of this rioting is somehow better or worse than other bits, but I think it'd be stupid to suggest that every individual that's been out there over the last few days has robbed a branch of Currys and set fire to an MX-5 - it wouldn't surprise me if a great (if not greater) number were there purely doing things like pushing over bins and intimidating the police, and while neither of those things is exactly indicative of a well thought out or justifiable protest, they're very different from wanton property destruction and pure theft.
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- driftking18594
- CiaranGTR94
If stolen CDs are counted in the singles/albums charts, I'm guessing she'll go straight to #1. Either that or she fights it with crappy rappers like Taio Cruz and mass-produced boybands.
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Disagree.
We need more of this and it needs to be even more obvious.
Put it this way - the police wouldn't be doing this to someone not causing trouble, staying indoors and not hanging around in big gangs. It's like the TV police shows you see where people run away from the police then claim they weren't doing anything. If you're innocent, why run? Same here - if you're innocent from the rioting, why hang around in a gang? Why act suspiciously?
It's a clear message of intent that the police are no longer going to tolerate the behaviour of the last few days and if it takes a few more thugs to be battered over the head with sticks until they begin to see sense then so be it.
The police have a bigger stick than the rioters and they have more than a hoody to protect them. Even the brain-dead cretins who've been setting fire to stuff should realise they'll come off worst if they continue.
...but the point is a crime was committed by the policeman, which is much more serious than any kind of rioting or looting. It's of national importance on how it is dealt with.
There is not dispute these people on bikes were criminals, they could have been rapist murderers, it doesn't matter, what the police did was a worse crime, the police represent the law and country etc.
........
I know someone will want to say "you think a policeman hitting a rioter with a baton is a worse crime than rape and murder? You are a twisted sick ****!"
But I can't help some people being narrow minded.
Yes a police baton strike is far more serious than a rape or murder. The police action has a national interest for 60 million people, a murder/rape may only effect 1 person a lot, and a few dozen close to that individual.
The criminal would face a court and trial no matter the form of arrest (and so serve the feelings of justice for the nation). What the defendant did is irrelevant, the police should not do that, a court dispenses punishment.
............
The grey area is still the real detail of was it actually required to use the batons, at present the discussion is based on what can be seen in the video. Nothing more than that. It not an official review, just observation. I can do that as I don't react and do stupid criminal things in response. But perhaps many people seeing that video will want action, possibly just in that area, Manchester I believe.
(Just a take on the video remember I'm not saying I'm convinced I know what happened.....this is a what if probability.)
There is not dispute these people on bikes were criminals, they could have been rapist murderers, it doesn't matter, what the police did was a worse crime, the police represent the law and country etc.
........
I know someone will want to say "you think a policeman hitting a rioter with a baton is a worse crime than rape and murder? You are a twisted sick ****!"
But I can't help some people being narrow minded.
Yes a police baton strike is far more serious than a rape or murder. The police action has a national interest for 60 million people, a murder/rape may only effect 1 person a lot, and a few dozen close to that individual.
The criminal would face a court and trial no matter the form of arrest (and so serve the feelings of justice for the nation). What the defendant did is irrelevant, the police should not do that, a court dispenses punishment.
............
The grey area is still the real detail of was it actually required to use the batons, at present the discussion is based on what can be seen in the video. Nothing more than that. It not an official review, just observation. I can do that as I don't react and do stupid criminal things in response. But perhaps many people seeing that video will want action, possibly just in that area, Manchester I believe.
(Just a take on the video remember I'm not saying I'm convinced I know what happened.....this is a what if probability.)
Barra333
Premium
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- barra333
So... what you are saying is that you would rather live next door to a rapist/murderer than a policeman who is using force to stop some deadbeat who has been rioting for no particular reason?
That's what it sounds like to me. The general public has been screaming all week for the police to actually do something to stop the crap, and this policeman has done that, and you want him thrown in jail for life (which is what you are saying if his crime is worse than rape and murder).
Maybe you should have taken a longer break from the thread.
I'm not sure, as bad as the police might be, it doesn't match the barbaric behaviour shown by rioters, apart from that, the allowance of the force is often abused by law enforcement, in any country regardless or their own institutional regulations, but this serve as an example for the potential criminals that might instigate more violence.
I'm not supporting the actions of the policeman, what I'm saying is that this sort of episodes are expected, and will not be punished because of the circumstances, the police also get out of control(but they shouldn't) under these circumstances, and its something that should be consider at the time of throwing precipitated statements.
I'm not supporting the actions of the policeman, what I'm saying is that this sort of episodes are expected, and will not be punished because of the circumstances, the police also get out of control(but they shouldn't) under these circumstances, and its something that should be consider at the time of throwing precipitated statements.
Fighting fire with fire is a bit of a biblical philosophy but in any case there was no fire against fire, the boy was non resistant and on the floor. He was then hit multiple times. In what way are the police returning what they are receiving, the received no impact injuries while the boy was on the floor...
People are on the polices side when they are doing policing within the law, in my look at the video, it doesn't look lawful policing. I accept some people may still accept and support it though.
..........
Yes these incidents can be expected. But they must be punished within the law and not supported in my view.
In the same way government and top brass expect their soldiers to go crazy in a war zone and commit horrible atrocities on enemy or even civilians, they accept that it's mostly inevitable part of soldiering life. But they punish it, they don't just let it pass. We hope anyway.
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