Lots of Games have it Now. Should GT 5 have a Rewind Option?
- Thread starter Simple SIM
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- 4,038
- United States
- 665
- GTP_HAAS599
- your kiddin' right?
Well stated, and over the heads of many.
Huh?
lol, i guess i wasn't clear enough or at all. Let me try again
I have read agruements for the feature saying GT already has restarts so it should have rewinding too. IMO, restarting and starting are the same thing. So its like saying "GT lets you start, so it should let you rewind". IMO, the arguement doesnt make sense and should be put to rest.
- 4,038
- United States
Restarting and Rewinding are the same thing. One happens to give you more control.
- 4,323
Restarting and starting are not the same thing... starting gives you an option to do something. Restarting gives you the option to try that same thing again.
Let's say you have 2 racing games, one has restart and one doesn't.
In game1 with restart, your 3rd career races, you drive right off the first corner into a river. Screwed. You restart, place 2nd this time, your career shows a marker of 2nd for that race.
In game2 with no restart, you start your 3rd career race, right off into a river... screwed. You can't restart, your 3rd race is marked a DQ and your depending on how the game handles it, your season is over or you just move on to the next race.
You can see there is a difference. If restart and start were the same thing, a game with restart would be the same as a game without restart. Obviously that is not true.
- 23,800
- Philippines
And a restart means that you will have to drive those 9-99 laps before the crash, anyway. Which gives you less incentive to crash, in the first place.
The length of races in GT4 (making restarts bothersome) and the lack of a rewind feature means that I actually had to accept having some losses on my scorecard.
Actually, not having a restart at all means that you won't want to crash... at all.
Hmmmmmmmm.....
The length of races in GT4 (making restarts bothersome) and the lack of a rewind feature means that I actually had to accept having some losses on my scorecard.
Actually, not having a restart at all means that you won't want to crash... at all.
Hmmmmmmmm.....
- 4,323
And a restart means that you will have to drive those 9-99 laps before the crash, anyway. Which gives you less incentive to crash, in the first place.
The length of races in GT4 (making restarts bothersome) and the lack of a rewind feature means that I actually had to accept having some losses on my scorecard.
Actually, not having a restart at all means that you won't want to crash... at all.
Hmmmmmmmm.....
Well if that's how you want to play it, you still can... if you feel having to redo those 99 laps is the right way to go, just go ahead and do it. Just like if you feel like having only cosmetic damage means you won't be afraid to crash because your car won't loose performance... ok, choose not to use cosmetic damage.
Remember, rewind means you get a chance to redo it, but you still have to be able to actually do it.
If you race 9 corners fine but have problems with the 10th what have you proven?
You have proven you can do those 9 corners, but you need to practice the 10th...
How you want to take that on is up to you. Do you want to race all 9 corners you are already proficient at to try the 10th again? Ok do it.
Do you feel like you have proven you can do the 9 corners and just need to learn the 10th, rewind a bit and do that.
If you feel it will ruin your game to use it, then don't, if you feel using it too much will ruin your game, don't... no one but you can ruin your game.
If the game FORCED a rewind on you everytime you crashed, that would be heinous. But giving you the option still leaves it as your choice if you want to ruin the game for yourself.
Then there are all those times when rewind is just a useful tool... your batteries die at a crucial point that screws you up when you spring back into the action with new batteries, someone walks in front of the TV and you get messed up, you want to practice a section of track exactly how you would drive it, not form some set starting point, not from a generic rolling start, but from a line and speed you know you did yourself.
Again, rewind does not ruin a game, your choice to abuse it might, but that's all up to you. Just like any other option in the game that makes it more accessible or easier, you can choose to abuse it, use it or don't.
- 665
- GTP_HAAS599
- your kiddin' right?
Technically speaking, restarting and starting are not the same. I hope you understand the point I was trying to make though.
- 4,323
Honestly I don't...
Quiet_Storm
(Banned)
- 495
- xQuietStormx
- xDANOMITEx
It's not a big deal but if PD wants to put it in then they'll put it in. I don't think it will take away from the game at all. I've played the Forza 3 demo quite a few times and I've never used it to correct my mistakes. I have, however, used it just to see how it works and it is kind of funny because when you rewind, the tire marks stays. Same thing happens when you rewind during a replay. The tire mark will stay on the track. If you play it back and forth, the tire mark gets darker.
Same thing happens when you rewind during a replay. The tire mark will stay on the track. If you play it back and forth, the tire mark gets darker.- 4,323
It's not a big deal but if PD wants to put it in then they'll put it in. I don't think it will take away from the game at all. I've played the Forza 3 demo quite a few times and I've never used it to correct my mistakes. I have, however, used it just to see how it works and it is kind of funny because when you rewind, the tire marks stays.
LOL that's a bit of an oversite... if you rewind and go a little different each time I wonder if you could black out an entire section of the track!
- 665
- GTP_HAAS599
- your kiddin' right?
really?
you just explained to me how restarting and starting are not the same thing in detail, yet you dont understand my point that rewinding and restarting are not the same thing.
The point I am still trying to make it seems is that being able to restart a level/race/any challenge in a game should be a included and assumed to be included in every game.
Imagine a game that you could only do anything once and the only way to experience it again is to buy the game again.
To put starting and restarting in the same category isnt too much of a stretch, but to put the rewinding feature in the same category as restarting is too much of a stretch to be a valid arguement for the inclusion of the feature, IMO of course.
Like every statement made on this forum, I'm sure someone will disagree, but hopefully you at least understand my point enough to have an opinion on it.
- 665
- GTP_HAAS599
- your kiddin' right?
hind sight is 20/20, by doing something after rewinding you only prove you can do it after already knowing is going to happen.
If you mess up the 10th corner, you prove you didnt know how to take the turn properly based on the situation and/or that you dont have the endurance to finish the race. Rewinding isnt going to disprove any of this.
Outside interference from things/people around you is beyond PD's control. Racing has a lot to do with preperation. Thats the gamers responsibilty IMwonderfulO.
p.s. sorry for the double post
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- 4,323
No I was saying I don't understand your point that restart and start are the same thing. I was waiting to get that part fully before trying to understand your viewpoint on something else.
Ok... why should they be included and assumed? Just beacuse they have been the norm for so long? BTW
So it's not really a given.
Sounds like real life.
So so far the argument against rewind I hear is... you can't do it in real life, you shouldn't be able to do it in a sim.
Well you can't restart in real life... why is that ok?
I don't think the stretch is significantly different for either... restart lets you do the whole thing over again, but you still have to do it all yourself. Rewind lets you do a part of it over again without having to redo the part you already did just fine at...
If you want to do the part you know you can do just fine again, ok... but if you don't it's not like the computer just put you there and you never had to do those first X turns... you still had to drive that part, you still had to do it right it's all you.
Doing the whole thing again, even the parts I can do fine, just to get to the part I can't do fine might be how you want to do it, but does skipping the part I already did properly making me worse somehow?
How about this... when you fail a certain license test, why don't you have to restart at the first test of that group? Why? Because you already proved you can do it, why bother doing it again? I mean if you want to, that's fine, but forcing you to do them again when you already proved you can and did do them just fine?
What have I ever not had an opinion on?
Well when I restart, I know that corner is coming up again... I know exactly what it's going to look like... I am going to try and avoid the thing I did before that screwed me up... the only difference is now I have to wade through all the rest of it before I take the shot again.
As far as learning I compare it to plaing the piano. When learning there are two ways to do it:
You start playing a song until you mess up, then you start the song over and try to get that part right. You do this until you get that part right and then you countinue on.
The result: You get VERY good at the first part of the song but you are far less polished at the end. This takes a long time because you essentially play large portions of the song over and over again that you don't need to. By the time you reach the trouble spot, you have done so much since the mistake you end up often being wrapped up to the point of making the same mistake again so the learning process is stifled.
Or
You play up until a trouble spot, you keep redoing the trouble spot until you get it right and are comfortable with it, then you keep going.
The result, the very thing you messed up on is fresh on your mind and your muscle memory is still there, you can easily correct it and focus on your problem without wasting time or concentration on parts you don't need to practice anymore. You get through learning the song much faster, then you can go back and perform it through to polish it and much more quickly perform at a concert.
I think rewind has lots of learning potential, and once you have your parts all conqurered, you are only a short hop from smoothing it all out and getting ready to be a solid online player.
Exactly... and how better to practice that situation than rewind and recreate that exact same situation? Same entry angle, same speed, same everything... this let's you use your mind to analyze the situation and learn from it. Restarting will eventually put you at the same corner, but things will be different, you can't apply what you learned the last time as directly becuase it's not the same situation.
Which would be better if you are trying to learn how to spell:
We go through the dictionary and you try each word, if you mess up, we go back and figure out the rule of spelling that you got wrong (i before e) then try that word again until you get it right.
Or
We go through the dictionary, when you get a word wrong, I explain why you got it wrong (i before e etc) and then we jump to another word that doens't apply the same rule.
It seems to me being able to practice the exact scenario over and over again makes it so you can learn the most in any situation. If you think you went in too heavy on the throttle you can test that exact solution, but if you restart, it might be a whole different problem, there might be an AI car in a different place now... the lesson you learned and the solution you think you came up with cannot be applied and tested... seems like the poorer way to learn if you ask me.
I understand people seem to feel there is some kind of abuse or loss of proving ones abilities involved, but I think that's a short sited way to see it.
I feel those who will lean on rewind a lot, need rewind a lot and aren't good drivers. At worst they won't get better from it and are thus no worse for wear, and at best it may be the difference between frustration and fun learning that makes them better drivers.
Those who are worried it will take away from their "manlihood" (you know what I mean) becuase rewind is in the game and thus you aren't as hardcore anymore... well rewind times get markers to show they are rewind times, clean times still get their own spot and you prove just as much aobut how good you are racing a clean race.
So it seems to me all the fears are unfounded if you think about it in the big picture and not just in a small forced setting.
- 665
- GTP_HAAS599
- your kiddin' right?
No I was saying I don't understand your point that restart and start are the same thing. I was waiting to get that part fully before trying to understand your viewpoint on something else.
Ok... why should they be included and assumed? Just beacuse they have been the norm for so long? BTW
So it's not really a given.
Sounds like real life.
So so far the argument against rewind I hear is... you can't do it in real life, you shouldn't be able to do it in a sim.
Well you can't restart in real life... why is that ok?
I don't think the stretch is significantly different for either... restart lets you do the whole thing over again, but you still have to do it all yourself. Rewind lets you do a part of it over again without having to redo the part you already did just fine at...
If you want to do the part you know you can do just fine again, ok... but if you don't it's not like the computer just put you there and you never had to do those first X turns... you still had to drive that part, you still had to do it right it's all you.
Doing the whole thing again, even the parts I can do fine, just to get to the part I can't do fine might be how you want to do it, but does skipping the part I already did properly making me worse somehow?
How about this... when you fail a certain license test, why don't you have to restart at the first test of that group? Why? Because you already proved you can do it, why bother doing it again? I mean if you want to, that's fine, but forcing you to do them again when you already proved you can and did do them just fine?
What have I ever not had an opinion on?
Well when I restart, I know that corner is coming up again... I know exactly what it's going to look like... I am going to try and avoid the thing I did before that screwed me up... the only difference is now I have to wade through all the rest of it before I take the shot again.
As far as learning I compare it to plaing the piano. When learning there are two ways to do it:
You start playing a song until you mess up, then you start the song over and try to get that part right. You do this until you get that part right and then you countinue on.
The result: You get VERY good at the first part of the song but you are far less polished at the end. This takes a long time because you essentially play large portions of the song over and over again that you don't need to. By the time you reach the trouble spot, you have done so much since the mistake you end up often being wrapped up to the point of making the same mistake again so the learning process is stifled.
Or
You play up until a trouble spot, you keep redoing the trouble spot until you get it right and are comfortable with it, then you keep going.
The result, the very thing you messed up on is fresh on your mind and your muscle memory is still there, you can easily correct it and focus on your problem without wasting time or concentration on parts you don't need to practice anymore. You get through learning the song much faster, then you can go back and perform it through to polish it and much more quickly perform at a concert.
I think rewind has lots of learning potential, and once you have your parts all conqurered, you are only a short hop from smoothing it all out and getting ready to be a solid online player.
Exactly... and how better to practice that situation than rewind and recreate that exact same situation? Same entry angle, same speed, same everything... this let's you use your mind to analyze the situation and learn from it. Restarting will eventually put you at the same corner, but things will be different, you can't apply what you learned the last time as directly becuase it's not the same situation.
Which would be better if you are trying to learn how to spell:
We go through the dictionary and you try each word, if you mess up, we go back and try that word again until you get it right.
Or
We go through the dictionary, when you get a word wrong, I explain why you got it wrong (i before e etc) and then we jump to another word that doens't apply the same rule.
It seems to me being able to practice the exact scenario over and over again makes it so you can learn the most in any situation. If you think you went in too heavy on the throttle you can test that exact solution, but if you restart, it might be a whole different problem, there might be an AI car in a different place now... the lesson you learned and the solution you think you came up with cannot be applied and tested... seems like the poorer way to learn if you ask me.
I understand people seem to feel there is some kind of abuse or loss of proving ones abilities involved, but I think that's a short sited way to see it.
I feel those who will lean on rewind a lot, need rewind a lot and aren't good drivers. At worst they won't get better from it and are thus no worse for wear, and at best it may be the difference between frustration and fun learning that makes them better drivers.
Those who are worried it will take away from their "manlihood" (you know what I mean) becuase rewind is in the game and thus you aren't as hardcore anymore... well rewind times get markers to show they are rewind times, clean times still get their own spot and you prove just as much aobut how good you are racing a clean race.
So it seems to me all the fears are unfounded if you think about it in the big picture and not just in a small forced setting.
Dev, i remember you telling me how important it is for PD to listen to their fans and take the GT series in the direction that the majority of fans want them to.
Let me guide you here https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=120785
also, you shouldnt have to rewind to learn your mistake, you should know what you have done wrong right away. At least I do.
- 4,323
No, I said you shouldn't blame the fans for saying what they want when PD listens and impliments it.
But as in any situation, they should apply some logic and look over the situation too. I mean fans wanted full damage on all cars, PD looked over that option and came up with something that was reasonable for the situation at hand, but not exatcly that.
It's important to listen to your fans, but it's also importan to evaluate the merit of the request. Often, if what people ask for is backed up by poor logic, the result will be the proof is in the pudding. Give it to them anyway and when the logic falls apart, they will see the error of their ways and all is fine.
Think of it as a parent listening to their kids... they definitely should, but they need to apply some of their own thought to it, and recognize when the kids are being irrational. If they are, then the parent should fall back on their own judgement and the kids will eventually realize through experience what they couldn't comprehend through imagination.
Let me guide you here https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=120785
Look at my last post in that thread
You speak pretty broadly... you don't, I don't. But we are both riding on a lot of experience.
A pro basketball player can probably spot a flaw in a play just by running through it once. A ballerena can probably reproduce a complicated routine after seeing it only once.
You and I would need some serious handicaps.
We have to remember that what applies to us doens't apply to all.
I don't need a racing line to tell me the best line to drive. I don't need cosmetic damage only to get through a whole race with my car in driveable condition.
But there are people who do. As long as the things that help them don't hurt me, why should I be against it?
The only answer is irrational, illogical fear of something.
- 665
- GTP_HAAS599
- your kiddin' right?
My poll is clear and the results are clear.
I address your issues in the OP of the poll and you are more than welcome to start a new, improved poll.
What is stopping you?
I address your issues in the OP of the poll and you are more than welcome to start a new, improved poll.
What is stopping you?
- 4,323
Nothing I suppose, other than I just didn't.
Your poll is clear. I don't deny it.
There are enough people in CA to vote that gay marriage should not be allowed. I don't deny it.
But their logic is flawed, their reasons are poor, and one day when it goes the other way, they will realize that we don't all suddenly burn in a pit of despair for it.
Same here. I see a lot of people with flawed logic and emotion guiding them. As I said, a million people with a bad idea doesn't mean it's not a bad idea.
Hey, we got Bush in office right? Twice
Remember I am not arguing whether rewind will be in GT5, or any GT. I am just pointing out why the reasons it shouldn't be are flawed.
BTW I don't mind typing up a storm, we all know that. But if you are going to ask me a lot of questions, I would appreciate if you have the decnecy to read my response before responding. I like a good debate, but if the otherside isn't participating, I won't bother.
- 665
- GTP_HAAS599
- your kiddin' right?
Hey, we got Bush in office right? Twice
Remember I am not arguing whether rewind will be in GT5, or any GT. I am just pointing out why the reasons it shouldn't be are flawed.
And I'm trying to prove the opposite.
Some people need to learn the hard way.
Always a good chat with you, time for sleep though. Later
- 7,623
- Exorcet
- OE Exorcet
Why? Thing is people keep trying to control other people. They fear a loss that cannot occur. Rewind will not effect those who do not want it in anyway.
I've never used racing line, stnd phyics, TC, etc except to test them out of curiosity. Surely you can avoid rewind. If someone uses rewind, what will you lose?
- 4,323
And those people can... just turn off rewind.
Basically if you need to learn the hard way but won't, you can try to learn the easy way. If that doesn't work for you and you still won't try the hard way... well you are not any worse off than if the easy way had never been there.
In the end, you still need to do it right for the clean low lap times.
The point is that while rewind might not be the right solution for everyone, it doesn't hurt anyone. The only arguments to the contrary (that it will hurt someone) seem to be based on how it will ruin the game and allow cheaters, but without explanations as to how it will do either.
Have a good one!
I'll tell you the real reason why rewind wont be implemented by GT. The reason is that PD wont be putting in a function that serves a purpose which can be better solved by more effective and economic means. Remember, the whole idea is to give players a way to improve their skills faster by making it possible for them to practice any part of a track they want, as many times as they want.
Here's what the basic solution looks like in theory...
1. Choose the part of the track you want to start at (i.e. the point at which you enter the track e.g. 825 meters foward from the start-line.)
2. Select where you want the timer to start and stop (e.g. start@1050 meters from start-line, stop@1600 meters from start-line.)
3. Adjust a slider to set your "start speed" (e.g. 61mph)
4. Click "Start!"
Done! No bs'ing around with an cumbersome/pro-awkward rewind function when all you really want to do is perfect your skill at navigating a specific sector of track without having to rewind. But the other benefit you get by doing it this way is that you'll be able to record your times for the sector you chose and also save your "track sector" for practice at a later date.. but a rewind function is just a gimmick solution that wont allow any of this without being tedious.
- 4,323
I saw this before when you posted it...
First off... how is this less tedious and cumbersome than just being able to hit a button while you are in a race and realize you have a problem?
Your way:
Race a track
Go off a tricky turn
Quit out of the race
Go to this section of the game
Load up this track and section
Practice this section either from a stop or from a rolling start (neither of which is the exact angle or speed which you got to by driving he course normally so who knows if it's a analgous to a position you would even be in).
Get the corner down
Go back and race the track
Hopefully hit that corner
Find the next difficult corner
Repeat.
Or
Race a track
Go off a tricky corner
Hit a rewind button for whatever time period you think is appropriate
See exactly where you are vs picking off a map or meter count
Practice the corner from exactly the angle, speed and location you really got yourself to
Keep rewinding until you have it down
Continue with race
If any more trouble corners, just do it again
No offesne but your way seems like a horribly cumbersome way to address an issue. Not only that it does it pretty poorly and involves a lot more steps and planning...
Oh and just because you say rewind is a gimmick doens't make it one... as I keep pointing out, you don't have to imagine or speculate, there are games that use it already and it works out quite well.
Also this doens't seem like it's particularly easy or economical to impliment... it's a whole other section of the game to code up (rather than just somthing that exists inside an existing part of the game).
The only way this idea works out is if you are hell bent on avoiding rewind and are looking for some way to offer an alternative to one aspect of rewind and totally rule out the ability to "cheat" (yourself?).
BTW how does this help with the other uses of rewind? Like what about if someone walks in front of the TV while you are in a tight corner? What if your batteries die and putting new ones on leaves you mid turn in a tight spot that gets screwed up?
Sorry, but your idea really is just a poorly thought out way to try and get rid of rewind for the purpose of getting rid of rewind and not with the interest being focused on an easy and intuitive way to solve a problem.
Again, I am not saying that rewind will or won't be in GT at some point... but I am saying that what you are putting forward is a pretty poor sounding solution especially in comparison.
It wont be available in race-mode, only in practice mode. And you wont need to quit out, you just select "Restart" and you'll be dropped back at the point you chose when you specified your "starting point". ET will be automatically recorded for the sector, and u can compare your times with previous times youve done for that sector.
Since you will be entering the track some distance prior to the timer-start point, you'll be able to take your preferred driving line before you get to where the timer starts.
Also, if you're doing a standing start you can choose your lateral position on the track.
It's very simple, but with rewind I dont see how youre gonna be able to record your time for a specific sector, unless u do it manually.
- 1,096
- Wattsterplus
- XML Binging Language?
No rewind, because its too far from reality.
And as for repeating corners, drive it, turn around, drive back and try it again. You'll learn quicker if you have to actually do a little work to try it again.
And as for repeating corners, drive it, turn around, drive back and try it again. You'll learn quicker if you have to actually do a little work to try it again.
Not necessarily. For instance, if you're in training to learn how to land 747 Jumbo jet in a simulator, turning around and taking off again to repeat the landing sequence is too slow. What happens instead is that a trainee pilot can simply repeat the landing sequence without having to go through the whole turning around and taking off, then turning around and repeating the landing sequence. This saves A LOT of time and allows the trainee to learn the essence of the landing sequence much quicker. That's why it's implemented in commercial pilot training.
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