Lots of Games have it Now. Should GT 5 have a Rewind Option?

[irnbrutwinturbo]

Not necessarily. For instance, if you're in training to learn how to land 747 Jumbo jet in a simulator, turning around and taking off again to repeat the landing sequence is too slow. What happens instead is that a trainee pilot can simply repeat the landing sequence without having to go through the whole turning around and taking off, then turning around and repeating the landing sequence. This saves A LOT of time and allows the trainee to learn the essence of the landing sequence much quicker. That's why it's implemented in commercial pilot training.

On a slightly different scale don't you think? In fact i would argue it's completely unrelated. Actually no i'll not argue, it's pointless. Just consider that no amount of simulator can make up for real life hours. And it's flight hours that the pilots licence's require.

Second, its also implemented in commercial pilot training because of cost. Im sure if it was cost-effective the trainees would actually be learning in 747s.

 

[Lain]

No rewind, because its too far from reality.

And as for repeating corners, drive it, turn around, drive back and try it again. You'll learn quicker if you have to actually do a little work to try it again.

Or you might give up, since it's a game and it's supposed to be fun.

It's a driving simulator, it isn't real life. As long as the driving physics are realistic, what does it matter if they take certain other liberties to make it more user-friendly?

 

[seraphaze]

"On a slightly different scale don't you think?"

The point is still relevant regardless of where it is applied, because all you need to focus on is that it is intended to enable a person to repeat a specific set of patterns in the shortest possible amount of time, which is proven to reduce the time it takes to learn something. For example, you see the same method used in snooker and pool. If a player wants to master a specific shot, they don't set the balls up and play an entire game until they come to the shot they way to learn. Instead, they just set up the shot and repeat it over and over until they master it. How simple is it?

"Just consider that no amount of simulator can make up for real life hours."

Actually, simulators can reduce the 'time to proficiency', otherwise we wouldnt use them. Of course, a sim cant replace reality (tho maybe later they mite), but as a learning tool and at cost savings theyre very effective.

However, for me, it's all about repetition.. and if I can repeat the same set of actions in the shortest amount of time possible, then for me that translates into increased performance. And for those who want to do it the old-school way, then that's their prerogative.. but if i want a game that allows me to repeat a skill more times than you can in the same amount of time, then that's MY prerogative.

 

[Zathra5_]

Dev, i remember you telling me how important it is for PD to listen to their fans and take the GT series in the direction that the majority of fans want them to.

Let me guide you here https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=120785

also, you shouldnt have to rewind to learn your mistake, you should know what you have done wrong right away. At least I do.

I'm sorry but I really did laugh when I read this. Your only response to a well though out argument is that the vast majority of people don't want and that you immediately know what you've done wrong as soon as you did it and so should everyone else. Whether people want it or not is not an argument on whether it can be an effective way of learning corners. Obviously you are a much better driver than me since I don't know what I did wrong immediately.

seraphaze, I really do like your idea but I hardly see it as more economic and it is debatable as to whether it would be more effective. Your method has the advantage that a restart to a different position may be quicker, the rewind has the advantage that you know the entry speed is as realistic as possible and don't have to work it out in another race mode. Yours has the advantage that it would be more palatable to those who think that rewind hurts the integrity of the game. While that is something that some of us find illogical, it can't be denied that people feel that way.

 

[phil-t]

Looking at the poll, it's clear people think they don't need it/want it/would ever use it meaningfully..

You would be better off having a poll about the FM3 demo on an impartial site, and asking "Should they take the rewind function out"..

To me, Rewind is like SKY+ or Large screen TV's.. People swear they don't want/need them, but as soon as they have them, they wouldn't be without them..


If life was a majority vote of things we wanted, we'd live in very miserable place..

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

Looking at the poll, it's clear people think they don't need it/want it/would ever use it meaningfully..

You would be better off having a poll about the FM3 demo on an impartial site, and asking "Should they take the rewind function out"..

To me, Rewind is like SKY+ or Large screen TV's.. People swear they don't want/need them, but as soon as they have them, they wouldn't be without them..


If life was a majority vote of things we wanted, we'd live in very miserable place..

By people, you mean YOU?

 

[Joey D]

It's actually pretty common for a lot of people to say they don't need something, get it, and then wonder what they did with out it. I don't think he mean just himself at all.

 

[Lain]

It's actually pretty common for a lot of people to say they don't need something, get it, and then wonder what they did with out it. I don't think he mean just himself at all.

Exactly.

And even if you wind up not using it, what's the harm in having it in there for the people who want to use it?

 

[seraphaze]

but I hardly see it as more economic and it is debatable as to whether it would be more effective.

There are two reasons why it's more economical:

1) Your times for specific sectors can be recorded (cant do that with just a rewind function).
2) If you want to practice a mile long sector (e.g. at the Nurburgring), you want to be able to instantly jump back to the "drop point" so that you can re-attempt it immediately. Otherwise with rewind you'd hav to rewind back and go through the process of finding the exact spot where you want to time yourself from, and you'd have to time yourself with with a stop watch just to get your sector times! lol For me, that would be quite a tedious exercise to repeat over and over if all I want to do is improve my time for a certain sector of track. I just cant conceive of how i would be able to perfect my sector times with just a rewind function. Can you explain to me how you see this working?

As for whether it would be more effective at helping a person learn a specific area of track faster, rest assured, it will, because it will allow you to repeat that sector more times while also letting you view/record your times to see how youre progressing.

"the rewind has the advantage that you know the entry speed is as realistic as possible and don't have to work it out in another race mode."

This point was already clarified in one of my previous reponses where i said "You will enter the track some distance prior to the timer-start point, so you'll be able to take your normal driving line (as you would in an actual race event) before you get to where the timer starts".

 

[turbomp301]

I'm sorry but I really did laugh when I read this. Your only response to a well though out argument is that the vast majority of people don't want and that you immediately know what you've done wrong as soon as you did it and so should everyone else. Whether people want it or not is not an argument on whether it can be an effective way of learning corners. Obviously you are a much better driver than me since I don't know what I did wrong immediately.

seraphaze, I really do like your idea but I hardly see it as more economic and it is debatable as to whether it would be more effective. Your method has the advantage that a restart to a different position may be quicker, the rewind has the advantage that you know the entry speed is as realistic as possible and don't have to work it out in another race mode. Yours has the advantage that it would be more palatable to those who think that rewind hurts the integrity of the game. While that is something that some of us find illogical, it can't be denied that people feel that way.

I've made plenty of arguements, sorry I dont regurgitate them over and over every time I make a post. Just go back and look at all my post for all my arguements against it.

I dropped my guard last night when I was tired and said "some people need to learn the hard way". Sorry for that, I should have known it would be swormed on by those in favor of the feature. Since I accept the fact I can't rewind what I've said, I'll instead restart the sentence.

In the long run it is better to learn the hard way.

 

[iLex]

...
1. Choose the part of the track you want to start at (i.e. the point at which you enter the track e.g. 825 meters foward from the start-line.)
2. Select where you want the timer to start and stop (e.g. start@1050 meters from start-line, stop@1600 meters from start-line.)
3. Adjust a slider to set your "start speed" (e.g. 61mph)
4. Click "Start!"
....

I definately like this system. I remember learning the ring in GT4 and the many times I failed to hit a corner just right after spending 5 minutes driving there. This option would've made a huge difference in time spend on learning that track.
I think this is a better option than rewind. Rewind has a strange arcady feel to it that doesn't seem to fit GT5.

 

[Strittan]

To answear the thread title...

No.

 

[Zathra5_]

I've made plenty of arguements,

And none of them have been any good. The only objective arguments are that it will take more development time (how much is questionable since most of the infrastructure is already in place), and that people here don't want it (but the people here are hardly representative of those who will buy the game and no good case has been made as to how replay will harm these people besides development time).

.

In the long run it is better to learn the hard way.

Another hand waving argument with no support.

There are two reasons why it's more economical:

1) Your times for specific sectors can be recorded (cant do that with just a rewind function).
2) If you want to practice a mile long sector (e.g. at the Nurburgring), you want to be able to instantly jump back to the "drop point" so that you can re-attempt it immediately. Otherwise with rewind you'd hav to rewind back and go through the process of finding the exact spot where you want to time yourself from, and you'd have to time yourself with with a stop watch just to get your sector times! lol For me, that would be quite a tedious exercise to repeat over and over if all I want to do is improve my time for a certain sector of track. I just cant conceive of how i would be able to perfect my sector times with just a rewind function. Can you explain to me how you see this working?

You would have to pause and record your sector time by hand (or just remember it). Yes that is a little less elegant than automatically recording your times.
The exact spot is easy. you just drag the slider to the appropriate time. You will have a clock so you can see the sector times or whatever spot you want to stop on the track. There is absolutely no need to use a stopwatch since you still have the track clock.

As for whether it would be more effective at helping a person learn a specific area of track faster, rest assured, it will, because it will allow you to repeat that sector more times while also letting you view/record your times to see how youre progressing.

As I said, I like your idea and don't disagree (I'm sure turbomp would). But it is effectively just a different take on a rewind system with its own advantages and disadvantages. You can't really suggest that one would be much better than the other.

This point was already clarified in one of my previous reponses where i said "You will enter the track some distance prior to the timer-start point, so you'll be able to take your normal driving line (as you would in an actual race event) before you get to where the timer starts".

But then you won't have the exact same speed, acceleration and time into the section you want to practice. You would be better off determining the speed you want first. That will take more time than a rewind where you know that the speed and position will be the same.

 

[turbomp301]

Rewinding isnt a feature GT needs to have. I think that is clear.

Whether you want the feature or not is just your opinion.

I haven't heard any arguement for the feature that makes sense to me.

 

[Devedander]

It wont be available in race-mode, only in practice mode. And you wont need to quit out, you just select "Restart" and you'll be dropped back at the point you chose when you specified your "starting point". ET will be automatically recorded for the sector, and u can compare your times with previous times youve done for that sector.

Well how do you know what corner you need to practice and from where to where? You must first race that track right? So the choice is: 1 Race the track, find a difficult spot, rewind with perfect accuracy to the point you want to try again from (because in rewind there is no need to find a point on a map or know meters in, you literally see down to the inch where you are and have the benefit of seeing from car view for better accuracy) and try immediately or 2: Race the track, note the corner that is hard, either quit out and go try with your method (trying to figure the point on the map you want to consider the start and end) or continue through and take notes on each corner you want to practice later, then quit out, go to this practice mode, set up the chunks you want to test and then try them out.

As for saving times for a section, you are solving a problem that isn't there. No you can't save times for sections with rewind, but it still gets you the practice you need to get through the corner decently.

I don't think having what you suggest is a bad idea, why not practice sections of the track with a timer, but I am saying it's neither a less cumbersome method to do what rewind does nor as well integrated into the game.

Since you will be entering the track some distance prior to the timer-start point, you'll be able to take your preferred driving line before you get to where the timer starts.
Also, if you're doing a standing start you can choose your lateral position on the track.

Now you are getting yet more complex and move farther away from "not cumersome" and again, why do it all this difficult way when you literally can hold a button until you are where you want to be and you nkow the speed, angle and location is EXACTLY what you did coming into this corner?

It's very simple, but with rewind I dont see how youre gonna be able to record your time for a specific sector, unless u do it manually.

You won't be able to, and if that's important to you, then you would have to do something else. But the point is even without recording your time for a sector, rewind gives you a great tool to learn a section through practice, immediately, any time, with little setup integrated right into the race environment. You just go race and you dont' have to worry about remembering which corners you want to practice and go set them up, you just hit rewind and do it.

Your idea isn't a bad feature, I think it could be cool to have also, but it doesn't do what rewind does better faster or easier... it just does something slightly similar as well as something else (record time for sector) in a very different way.

Basically if I had to choose one or the other as an educational tool, I would choose rewind. If both were offered, I think your idea would be a great thing to have in also.

 

[Devedander]

There are two reasons why it's more economical:

1) Your times for specific sectors can be recorded (cant do that with just a rewind function).
2) If you want to practice a mile long sector (e.g. at the Nurburgring), you want to be able to instantly jump back to the "drop point" so that you can re-attempt it immediately. Otherwise with rewind you'd hav to rewind back and go through the process of finding the exact spot where you want to time yourself from, and you'd have to time yourself with with a stop watch just to get your sector times! lol For me, that would be quite a tedious exercise to repeat over and over if all I want to do is improve my time for a certain sector of track. I just cant conceive of how i would be able to perfect my sector times with just a rewind function. Can you explain to me how you see this working?

Definitely for longer chunks of the game, this method would be good as you are right, rewinding a long chunk wouldn't be the best way to do it. Rewind is more for tackling the trouble spots and getting them learned reasonbly well, this could be better for nailing a long section of track. Like I said, it's not a bad idea, but not a good replacement for rewind, they excel in different areas.

As for timing sectors, again, if you want to do that, then yes this would be the better way, but if you just want to try a corner a few times until you find a good breaking marker, get a feel for what speed is acceptable to get through and get feel for the turn radius so you can comfortably get through then rewind helps a lot. As an educational tool, I think rewind is better suited towards those lower on the skill scale (not to say it can't be good for advanced drivers also) and your method seems like what better drivers would do to perfect their already good game.

As for whether it would be more effective at helping a person learn a specific area of track faster, rest assured, it will, because it will allow you to repeat that sector more times while also letting you view/record your times to see how youre progressing.

I think it depends on the size and section of the track, especially if you factor in finding that section during a normal race, making note of it, getting into this mode and then setting it up.

This point was already clarified in one of my previous reponses where i said "You will enter the track some distance prior to the timer-start point, so you'll be able to take your normal driving line (as you would in an actual race event) before you get to where the timer starts".

Yes but again, what's a better starting point that a point you literally know is exactly what it would be in a race because it was the point in the race?

Rewinding isnt a feature GT needs to have. I think that is clear.

Whether you want the feature or not is just your opinion.

I haven't heard any arguement for the feature that makes sense to me.

Well needs depends on how you look at it. I don't think it NEEDS to be in to make GT a great game, I would probably use it very rarealy so for me little difference. But from a marketing standpoint, especially with how well rewind is being taken in other games, it might be a NEED just like damage was a NEED, you don't want to be down too many spots in an on paper competition.

Whether you want it may be your opinion, but the reasons for or against it should be pretty black and white, and the reasons against it so far seem to me to all be based on irrational fear of it somehow ruining the game, or just stating it IS something bad (ie it is a cheat).

 

[turbomp301]

for what its worth, a rewinding feature has never sold a game to me or even made a game more appealing to me. I guess thats why I have the opinion I do.

 

[Exorcet]

I feel it's kind of pointless arguing for "track section select" over rewind when rewind would let you do the exact same thing, and then give you more flexibility on top of it.

And for the people who claim to want realism, should any of them be promoting this, you can't teleport around race tracks.

 

[Exorcet]

for what its worth, a rewinding feature has never sold a game to me or even made a game more appealing to me. I guess thats why I have the opinion I do.

Same here, but I know it won't effect me, and I condsier what other people want. Rewind is a win-win, or at worst a win-no effect.

 

[killanite]

Same here, but I know it won't effect me, and I condsier what other people want. Rewind is a win-win, or at worst a win-no effect.

Yeh, But even if it's there, I doubt PD will advertise it as the marque feature of their game, so I doubt it'll help sell the game , but rather just another feature to help newbies (I think there's enough of those just in my opinion but whatever)

 

[turbomp301]

Same here, but I know it won't effect me, and I condsier what other people want. Rewind is a win-win, or at worst a win-no effect.

Depending on how it is implemented in the game, if it is ever put in.

 

[Devedander]

for what its worth, a rewinding feature has never sold a game to me or even made a game more appealing to me. I guess thats why I have the opinion I do.

I was definitely interested in GRID rewind because I had never seen it in a racing game before... would it sell me? Probably not... but it did get my attention.

But yeah I don't think rewind is gonna be a game seller for the most part... the point was always though that game seller or not, there is no reason to be ANTI rewind.

Same here, but I know it won't effect me, and I condsier what other people want. Rewind is a win-win, or at worst a win-no effect.

Exactly... if you don't want it or need it, that's all good and dandy, I don't care about racing line, but no problem it doesn't hurt me.

The issue is with the people who are so hard core against rewind... the question is why?

 

[Lain]

Depending on how it is implemented in the game, if it is ever put in.

I assume there'd be a rewind button. Which, if GT5 is like GT5p, I assume could be reassigned to something else if you don't want to use it.

 

[turbomp301]

I assume there'd be a rewind button. Which, if GT5 is like GT5p, I assume could be reassigned to something else if you don't want to use it.

I meant more of which part of the game it could used on.

Here is one more arguement to keep this debate alive and fuel Dev's fire.

If the rewind feature is targeted more for casual players(which based on the poll and the argued use of it suggests), then couldnt the arguement be made that the GT series isnt the best game for casual players of the genre and has never tried be?

Are those that want the feature barking up the wrong tree?

Kaz has also talked about a GT for boys which would be more casual and kind of an introduction into driving/racing.

Would this feature be better suited for that game?

 

[Lain]

I meant more of which part of the game it could used on.

Here is one more arguement to keep this debate alive and fuel Dev's fire.

If the rewind feature is targeted more for casual players(which based on the poll and the argued use of it suggests), then couldnt the arguement be made that the GT series isnt the best game for casual players of the genre and has never tried be?

Are those that want the feature barking up the wrong tree?

Kaz has also talked about a GT for boys which would be more casual and kind of an introduction into driving/racing.

Would this feature be better suited for that game?

The fact of the matter is that we're the minority. There are more people who casually play GT 'cuz it's pretty than there are people who play it hardcore 'cuz it's realistic.

So I don't see any harm in the feature being added. It's just an aid for those who need/want it.

 

[Joey D]

f the rewind feature is targeted more for casual players(which based on the poll and the argued use of it suggests), then couldnt the arguement be made that the GT series isnt the best game for casual players of the genre and has never tried be?

Are those that want the feature barking up the wrong tree?

In order to sell games in a very competitive market you need to have features that attract casual players. You can't just alienate a huge section of gamers and expect your product to sell well now.

 

[turbomp301]

In order to sell games in a very competitive market you need to have features that attract casual players. You can't just alienate a huge section of gamers and expect your product to sell well now.

Well I dont think GT5 will have the feature, lets see how it sells. Especially against NFS shift which IMO is targeted to casual players.

 

[Joey D]

Well I dont think GT5 will have the feature, lets see how it sells.

I'm sure it will sell pretty good, but it could sell better with features that cater to all sorts of players. I know I wouldn't want to play it if it was like GTR2 or some hardcore sim. I don't find that to be very fun.

 

[Earth]

The issue is with the people who are so hard core against rewind... the question is why?

Thats like asking why someone wouldn't want the R3 button to be instant 100% health when playing MGS4 or Uncharted.

Its not as easy as just saying don't use it. As pure as I may try to be when racing I know I will give in more then one time to the temptation of rewinding a mistake.

It's like starting the game off with a trillion credits. It, like rewind, takes so much fun out of the game its not even funny

 

[DK]

Yes. And why not have a piece of crap Kia Picanto that your granny drives?