Lots of Games have it Now. Should GT 5 have a Rewind Option?

[turbomp301]

Lets use up RAM and CPU cycles so noobs can play GT5 without getting frustrated. Oh wait we already maxed out the RAM with the nice graphics, guess will have to tone the graphics and number of cars down...

Optional features DO affect the people that don't use them...

great point!

 

[humpus]

Just create a poll already.

 

[Exorcet]

You can cheat yourself.

That funny, very funny. When I don't play how you like to play, I'm cheating myself. But if that's a fact, you're cheating yourself by not taking advantage of rewind.

Besides, GTR2 letting you practice sectors like GT's driver license tests is in no way a rewind button.

Check out 1:52 in this video. OOOPS! touched the wall. Oh well, just rewind.

And then AGAIN at 2:05! [/QOUTE]

Yeah, the driver refined his technique both times, good for training. And yes, rewind is exacty like GTR. If you want to practice a section of track, rewind to the beginning of that section.

Here are some questions you should ponder if you thinksome random person you don't know (and can't see) playing in a way that is, in your opinion, not fun bothers you:

You do realize that you and I would simply not use the rewind if we were driving right? You do realize that the driver could just be playing a race for practice right? You do realize rewind can't be done online right? You do realize that you don't and should not have control over how someone else plays right?

And look at the last question, maybe I should hack into all of your GT games so that you start with 10000000000000000000000 credits and all cars. That's how I'd like to play, so I can't let you earn money yourself. That's not fun, it's not right. I said so.

The cars might as well be invulnerable.

Just like in GT1, GT2, GT3, GT4, GT5P, and possibly in GT5 if there is an option to turn off damage which some people hope for. How fake, like being able to do the 24 hr of LeMans more than once a year, or having a 1000 car garage, or the "Gran Turismo Association", it's not real GET IT OUT OF THE GAME! Driving lines? I don't see them in reality popping on/off the road. That's not how you get a racing license! What is an S license anyway? Yet building a program that allows rewind is possible in real life. You want fantasy features over something realistic like rewind in a sim? Strange.

And like I said, I dont even like this feature (cheat) in arcade games anymore

You don't, I don't. Doesn't matter, it doesn't have any effect on us.

I think it's also a slap in the face to the people who've worked so hard on the collision physics and damage models.. Their whole purpose is that so there is consequence to a mistake (making a game a little challenging isn't a sin, But it seems these days developers think it is) and when people can just kind of.... well re-do all their mistakes without any sort of consequence you wonder why all this damage was put in the game to begin with (forza 3) when people can just fix it with a press of a button.

Sure people can say "well just don't use it" but I think I'd lose alot of that sense of accomplishment when I finish the game when I know that I coulda finished it alot easier and that a 8 year old kid can beat this game rather than actual skilled players. I don't want to be able to adjust the difficulty of the game, I want the developers to decide that and challange the players to beat it (ya know... like how old games were made)

EDIT: and I know some people will say forza isnt a game but a simulator... But that just makes more of a point to my statement.. a simulator should simulate the difficulty of driving a real car and the consequence of mistakes..

I didn't know you had to use rewind. I'll be gettin Forza 3 when I get back to my 360. Won't touch the rewind button. If possible, I'll unassign it a button. Damage will always be on max. The devs would never be let down by me unless I never crash.

You lose your sense of accomplishment because a hypothetical person you don't know used rewind? Old games have difficulty levels and progress codes.

You want the consequence of a mistake? Every sim now has to have a code unique to each player. You can only play if you enter the code at game start. It loads the state of your driver, from healty to dead, rich to in debt. If you run out of money and can't buy cars anymore, you have to work at a driver through for 5 years.

Lets use up RAM and CPU cycles so noobs can play GT5 without getting frustrated. Oh wait we already maxed out the RAM with the nice graphics, guess will have to tone the graphics and number of cars down...

Optional features DO affect the people that don't use them...

We'd have to give up graphics? Awesome! I hate PD's focus on graphics, a waste of time that would be better used on physics or rewind. And Earth can't dispute that, since I said it and it must go for everyone on Earth (the plnet).

But TopGear, you do have a valid argument, I'd just be willing to give up graphics, a preference thing.

 

[Zathra5_]

Lets use up RAM and CPU cycles so noobs can play GT5 without getting frustrated. Oh wait we already maxed out the RAM with the nice graphics, guess will have to tone the graphics and number of cars down...

Optional features DO affect the people that don't use them...

This would be a valid argument if you needed more RAM or CPU cycles but you don't. The PS3 is already collecting all the info it needs for rewind because it needs it for replays.

It doesn't have to be like unlimited saves. There can both be limits on number of rewinds and rewards for those who don't use rewind and even higher rewards for those who shut it off completely. Remember that casual gamers vastly outnumber those of us who want a sim experience. Just look how popular the beginner and intermediate events are compared to the pro events.

 

[killanite]

@Exorcet
I'm sure you noticed the "I think" at the start of my post meaning that was my opinion, Theres no need for you to shoot down every opinion that does not abide by yours, This is a public forum and I've stated my thoughts in a proper manner rather than just saying "HELL NO".
Be respectful of other people's opinions rather than quoting every single post that disagrees with you and throwing the same line over and over again at it. You've already made your point what looks like to be the 40th odd time and I think you need to realise that people's opinions won't change just cause you re-write your same objections repeatedly.

 

[Exorcet]

@Exorcet
Be respectful of other people's opinions

I am. Don't try to kill discussion.

 

[killanite]

I am. Don't try to kill discussion.

It's not a discussion. It's people saying their opinions and you saying "Nope you're wrong"

 

[Exorcet]

It's not a discussion. It's people saying their opinions and you saying "Nope you're wrong"

Then they get to defend their position and attack mine. A discussion. Perhaps, you would find debate better?

 

[turbomp301]

This would be a valid argument if you needed more RAM or CPU cycles but you don't. The PS3 is already collecting all the info it needs for rewind because it needs it for replays.

How do you know this information?

 

[Tornado]

Because in order for the game to do a replay it has to keep track of all of the actions during the race anyways, so a rewind feature really wouldn't cause any more strain on the system.

I am. Don't try to kill discussion.

You really aren't.
"I don't want rewind because of *insert personal reasoning here*"
"Then shut up and don't use it"

 

[turbomp301]

Because in order for the game to do a replay it has to keep track of all of the actions during the race anyways, so a rewind feature really wouldn't cause any more strain on the system.


You really aren't.
"I don't want rewind because of *insert personal reasoning here*"
"Then shut up and don't use it"

You have to exit the race to go to the replay, it is not instant. What you have is a theory, unless you have knowledge of the coding or programing within the game it is hard to state that as fact.

 

[Tornado]

You have to exit the race to go to the replay, it is not instant.

It doesn't matter. The data for the replay is stored as the race occurs. That is irrefutable fact. Because of that, that data is readily accessible by the system at any time during a race because it would have to be in order to be saved in the first place.
All it would take to access it during the race would be a programmed method to call the recorded actions in reverse when a button was pressed. This would make rewinding during race be exactly the same as rewinding during a replay (In reality, a replay and a race are virtually the same as far as the game engine is concerned. The only difference is that the actions for the replay are previously stored and ones for the actual race occur on the fly), only you would regain control of the car afterwards.

 

[Exorcet]

You really aren't.
"I don't want rewind because of *insert personal reasoning here*"
"Then shut up and don't use it"

I've said more than that. This is more accurate:

"I don't want rewind because of *insert personal reasoning here and/or stubborness*"
"Your reasoning is flawed, and you're not considering other people"

And I guess you'd consider thoughtless reaction due to fear of change a personal reason? I'm taking apart what I see as falacies while respecting opinion. You'll notice when [I think] people say something valid, I'll admit it.

Opinion isn't a safe bubble that leaves you free to do what you will. It was once opinion/fact that the white race was superior. I'm glad people weren't shy about discussing it. Of course this isn't as drastic, it's just a forum. But, what I expect from a forum is discussion. A list of posts that might as well be isolated isn't a forum. That's my opinion anyway. Ideally, every thread should dive into heated discussion.

Also, have you ever seen scientists debate? I'm sure they don't [always] reticule each other in print when their opinions differ. It's the same as here.

And finally, to all people who have misunderstood me, I will try to prevent it from happening again.

 

[Devedander]

You have to exit the race to go to the replay, it is not instant. What you have is a theory, unless you have knowledge of the coding or programing within the game it is hard to state that as fact.

Well I do have knowledge of coding and programing (not specifically GT5 but in general) and there is no reason to do it any other way.

Your input is tracked during the game and the AI runs off a bunch of formulas based on your input and possibly a randomizing seed chosen at the start of the race (this is done in case the devs want the race to be more dynamic).

All that has to be recorded to reproduce the ENTIRE race is your controllers input and the randomizing seed if one is used.

Once you have that, you just rerun all the functions of the game and feed it your input as it goes and the exact same race is reproduced. This is how replays are created.

The exception is that some games record your input as well as all your opponents input in the game. This means during a replay you don't have to run the AI anymore, you just run the rendering engine off the data provided. This is done if the leaving the AI out during a replay might free up enough processing power to enhance the replay. This is quite possibly the case with GT5, but either way, it's all recorded as you go.


So think about it for a minute turbo, if the game DIDN'T record everything during a race, how would it generate the replay?

Exiting the race does not somehow mean it can go back in time and grab info that's gone...

The game IS recording the race the entire time already.

 

[Coiler]

Added "NO rewind in GT!" group, join if you don't like it to !

Here!

 

[Tornado]

Adding to that, even if the game was only accessing the data after the race is over (which is possible, because there isn't much of a reason to access it during the race other than to save it for later), it still has to put it somewhere.

"I don't want rewind because of *insert personal reasoning here and/or stubborness*"
"Your reasoning is flawed, and you're not considering other people"

There's the rub.

Lets say someone thinks the GT series and a rewind don't fit only because it goes against the spirit of the series. No other reasoning but that. Who are you to say that such a viewpoint is stubborn?
Almost none of this topic is based on factual discussion (other than whether the rewind would tax the PS3 more, really, none of it is). Your arguments, as well reasoned as they are (and they are) keep coming off as "you're wrong, because if you don't want to use it, don't use it." And that isn't an arguable statement if you are calling the people who disagree with that line stubborn.

 

[turbomp301]

Well I do have knowledge of coding and programing (not specifically GT5 but in general) and there is no reason to do it any other way.

Your input is tracked during the game and the AI runs off a bunch of formulas based on your input and possibly a randomizing seed chosen at the start of the race (this is done in case the devs want the race to be more dynamic).

All that has to be recorded to reproduce the ENTIRE race is your controllers input and the randomizing seed if one is used.

Once you have that, you just rerun all the functions of the game and feed it your input as it goes and the exact same race is reproduced. This is how replays are created.

So think about it for a minute turbo, if the game DIDN'T record everything during a race, how would it generate the replay?

Exiting the race does not somehow mean it can go back in time and grab info that's gone...

The game IS recording the race the entire time already.

I agree, I'm asking how do you or the other guy know that it will not take any additional ram/processing power/whatever to implement this feature. Ending a race and then watching the replay seems different to instantly reversing every action x1/x2/x4 at any given time.

So you are pretty sure since its already being recorded that it isnt going to take anymore ram/cpu/yadayadayada power to have that replay ready to go in reverse at any given time. Sorry dev, I'm not calling you a lair, but I would need a neutral 3rd party that knows the GT codes to verify that but thanks for helping me understand it better.

 

[Exorcet]

Adding to that, even if the game was only accessing the data after the race is over (which is possible, because there isn't much of a reason to access it during the race other than to save it for later), it still has to put it somewhere.


There's the rub.

Lets say someone thinks the GT series and a rewind don't fit only because it goes against the spirit of the series. Who are you to say that such a viewpoint is stubborn?
Almost none of this topic is based on factual discussion (other than whether the rewind would tax the PS3 more, really, none of it is), so who are you to say whether a reason isn't logical? Your arguments, as well reasoned as they are (and they are) keep coming off as "you're wrong, because if you don't want to use it, don't use it." And that isn't an arguable statement if you are calling the people who disagree with that line stubborn.

I make an attempt to evaluate what is and isn't logical. It's unlikely that I'm always correct or unbiased myself, but I don't automatically say that someone who disagrees is illogical.

If someone's reason doesn't present to me a loss they will face, I will question the reason until they can provide the loss or see that they are only really hurting other people. If rewind doesn't really take away from them, they shouldn't care. Now, what is and isn't a loss is up for debate, hence one reason for the debate. So maybe instead of going from the point of loss/not a loss, I should try to show people that their perceived loss may not be so bad?

Do I have a right to label, absolutely, that someone is stubborn/wrong? No

Can I form an opinion on someone's opinion and engage in discussion to try and resolve the issue that will benefit the most people? Yes. But in doing so, I don't want to get bogged down in being 100% politically correct because if I did, no one would get anywhere.

I'm not trying to be the bad guy, and I'm sure 99.99999% of people, even those I accuse of shortsightedness (which does not mean they are such with certainty) are doing the same. If someone thought I was wrong, I would certainly expect them to tell me.

There is a lot going on here, and I'm not entirely sure this post will be 100% clear. You or anyone can PM or continue posting here (though it seems to be going off topic) until the issue is resolved, if you'd like.

 

[Devedander]

I agree, I'm asking how do you or the other guy know that it will not take any additional ram/processing power/whatever to implement this feature. Ending a race and then watching the replay seems different to instantly reversing every action x1/x2/x4 at any given time.

So you are pretty sure since its already being recorded that it isnt going to take anymore ram/cpu/yadayadayada power to have that replay ready to go in reverse at any given time. Sorry dev, I'm not calling you a lair, but I would need a neutral 3rd party that knows the GT codes to verify that but thanks for helping me understand it better.

Sorry, missread that, I see what you guys are at now. What I said was true but was the wrong point.

 

[Tornado]

I agree, I'm asking how do you or the other guy know that it will not take any additional ram/processing power/whatever to implement this feature. Ending a race and then watching the replay seems different to instantly reversing every action x1/x2/x4 at any given time.

So you are pretty sure since its already being recorded that it isnt going to take anymore ram/cpu/yadayadayada power to have that replay ready to go in reverse at any given time. Sorry dev, I'm not calling you a lair, but I would need a neutral 3rd party that knows the GT codes to verify that but thanks for helping me understand it better.

It isn't a matter of knowing how GT5 is programmed, its a matter of knowing how programming in general works and how replays in games are performed. I'll break it down for you:

1. To record replays, the game takes into account inputs (steering, throttle, brake, etc.) from the player (So it can determine the actions of the cars on track. For simplicity, we will say it does the same with the normal AI cars as well) as well as the track information and the car information (so it can playback with the correct parameters). That is all it saves.
2. To play back replays, the game essentially starts another race. The physics, the weather, the track conditions: they are all being calculated during a replay exactly like they are during a normal race. In essence, the game treats a replay exactly like a long macro function, and the only functional difference between a replay and a race is that in a replay the player car is essentially functioning as an AI that is using the player inputs instead of the player giving the inputs.
3. Because the replay system allows you to reverse/speed up the gameplay at any time, there is no reason whatsoever that the same could not be applied to the race itself because they are functionally identical as far as the game is concerned. If we were to put it in GT4 terms, there is zero difference between playing a race in B-Spec and watching a replay of that race; and the only difference between an B-Spec race and an A-Spec replay is that the game uses prerecorded inputs from the player rather than the AI.

In one sentence: The reason that rewind could be done within a race without a problem is because it is able to be done in replays and there is no difference between the race and the replay to the game engine.

 

[Masi_23]

I chilled with my homie Jesus today. I asked him and he said no. He said he's not down with the "do it againsys" ..if he does, he wouldnt have a job! Now since he gave me a free meal, i gotta go with the guy. Even though it wasn't the tastiest bread, it came with free complimentary red wine (Supposedly gets rid of a week's worth of guilt) so it's a win-win for me!

Toodles

How can you not agree with this guy?

 

[Rand al Thor]

You can cheat yourself. Besides, GTR2 letting you practice sectors like GT's driver license tests is in no way a rewind button.

Check out 1:52 in this video. OOOPS! touched the wall. Oh well, just rewind.

And then AGAIN at 2:05!

The cars might as well be invulnerable.

And like I said, I dont even like this feature (cheat) in arcade games anymore

rewind just look at that retarded video. Gt will not be contaminated by rewind. It is just a total waste of time that brings nothing but cheating and takes away the element of satisfaction from a gamer. The punishing element of the game is taken away. It becomes to easy and too simple. The simulation becomes worthless

**** that. once again. Rewind?

 

[turbomp301]

[youtubehd]hUOP-8lYvwc[/youtubehd]

 

[Nomino]

Who cares how it's achieved? Fact is, this is one feature that the franchise does not need. It's all well and good saying, "If you don't want to use it, don't bother", but it's not as simple as that is it? If you are going to use it, why bother racing at all in the first place? All you would be doing is winning based on cheating, not based on skill.

For learning the track eh? Whatever...

 

[Devedander]

rewind just look at that retarded video. Gt will not be contaminated by rewind. It is just a total waste of time that brings nothing but cheating and takes away the element of satisfaction from a gamer. The punishing element of the game is taken away. It becomes to easy and too simple. The simulation becomes worthless

Or you don't push the rewind button and it's just as punishing and challenging as ever...

You do realize a lot of people find that challenge frustrating and annoying right? I mean look around this forum, you have people here who don't want damage becuase it makes the game too hard or frustrating...

BTW how does it bring cheating? You mean it gets you a better lap time but then lables it a "rewind" time? You mean that drivers who haven't the time or skill to drive clean all the time cheat themselves out of the opportunity to get frustrated?

You do realize that the vast majority of gamers out there are not as skilled as most users of this forum right? We are the minority you know...

Who cares how it's achieved? Fact is, this is one feature that the franchise does not need.

Is it a fact? Hard fact to prove isn't it?

I have at least 3 friends who would disagree... they just won't play GT becuase they have no fun and it's a big frustration fest. Rewind could well help with that.

Was the assisted driving line something the franchise needed? No... but doesn't seem to hurt that it's there and it is almost certainly helping some if not a large number of lesser drivers improve.

Want less crap drivers on line? Give them as many tools as possible to improve and take the frustration out of learning.

 

[Rand al Thor]

Or you don't push the rewind button and it's just as punishing and challenging as ever...

You do realize a lot of people find that challenge frustrating and annoying right?

if GT is too hard for you then mario kart is the game for you.

 

[McLaren]

It's all well and good saying, "If you don't want to use it, don't bother", but it's not as simple as that is it?

It is that simple. Don't press the button to activate it. Nothing more.

 

[Frederik82]

if GT is too hard for you then mario kart is the game for you.

Mariokart USED to be cool. That is, until they started turning it into a game where the player in first place is being constantly punished for playing good (blue shell). MK Wii really reached the tipping point, and it now reflects Nintendos mentality that even grandpa and your mom should have a chance of randomly beating you by sheer luck, and not based on something as cruel and unfair as "using skill".

And yes, I don´t even know why I am talking about this

 

[Devedander]

if GT is too hard for you then mario kart is the game for you.

Or maybe practice is for you?

Where do people get off with logic like this? Oh wait... Thor... I forgot... should have expected as much

 

[gt3_racer05]

GRiD and DiRT 2 are all I know of.

Ok, so that's 3 games having "cheat cheat" option. I think GT5 should leave out this one cause u r responsible for wat u do