Makeshift Shuffle Club - Time Trials & Testing for club car lists - all welcomeOpen

[watermelon punch]

Rock, paper, scissors!

That's a really good metaphor for our races. 💡

I understand the fastidiousness that this kind of testing brings out in most of us.
But I try to keep an eye on the big picture.

For example, alien drivers are naturally going to be more concerned about consecutive cars being sorted,
But this is why I make the itinerary.
Even with the prize picks... I do try to carefully choose which races come when.
I try to separate some of you so you don't make trouble!
Outliers WILL BE ASSIMILATED!


Anyway, I was trying to enter data at the same time as @tarnheld

 

[watermelon punch]

ALERT LIST CHANGES

The following car lists have been updated.
(Post #1 has been updated.)

VINTAGE

1. Honda Civic 1500 3door CX '79
2. Nissan Skyline 2000GT-B (S54B) '67
3. Alfa Romeo Spider 1600 Duetto '66
4. Mini Marcos GT '70
5. Isuzu Bellett 1600 GT-R '69
6. Isuzu 117 Coupé '68
7. Alfa Romeo Giulia Sprint Speciale '63
8. Honda 1300 Coupe 9 S '70
9. Lotus Europa S.2 '68
10. Toyota Celica 1600GT (TA22) '70
11. BMW 507 '57
12. Mazda Cosmo Sport (L10A) '67
13. Mitsubishi Lancer 1600 GSR '74
14. Toyota Sprinter Trueno GT-Apex (AE86) '83
15. Nissan Fairlady 2000 (SR311) '68

Comfort Soft Tires

There were cars cut... However, fear not, they will be included in NEW lists that will be arriving as soon as enough testing is completed.
The cars that have been ADDED:
Isuzu Bellett 1600 GT-R '69
Isuzu 117 Coupé '68
Lotus Europa S.2 '68
Toyota Sprinter Trueno GT-Apex (AE86) '83

So remember to go shopping, and to GT Auto for an oil change.

90s SPORTS

1. Toyota CELICA GT-FOUR (ST205) '98
2. Nissan Silvia K's Aero (S14) '96
3. Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution II GSR '94
4. Nissan Fairlady Z 300ZX Version S TwinTurbo 2seater (Z32) '98
5. Audi S4 '98
6. Acura NSX '91
7. Mitsubishi GTO Twin Turbo MR '98
8. Chevrolet Camaro Z28 Coupe '97
9. TVR V8S '91
10. Mazda éfini RX-7 Type R (FD) '91
11. Toyota SUPRA RZ '97
12. Subaru IMPREZA Sport Wagon WRX STi Version VI '99
13. Nissan SKYLINE GT-R V・spec II (R32) '94
14. Chevrolet Corvette GRAND SPORT (C4) '96
15. Lotus Elise Sport 190 '98

Sports Hard Tires

2 cars have been added:
Nissan Silvia K's Aero (S14) '96
Audi S4 '98

The only car cut was the Toyota MR2 GT-S '97
But not to worry, another MR2 may be forthcoming in a different list that will be available soon.

 

[watermelon punch]

Note the 300SL, half a second slower than the R5 despite an 8 mph advantage down Kemmel.

It's a conundrum.
The Renault is very likely faster than the 300SL at many tracks (if not most).

But it also drives like an IV drip stand.

 

[Patrick8308]

ALSO>>> we have the GErman list... Scwarzwald League
But that has 26 cars on it (and lots of same model) still... so I think we'll see that list (more trimmed) when @Patrick8308 finishes his initial evaluations of the cars. 👍

I have finished my test on GVER yesterday and this is the result:

1:07,777 --- RUF CTR2 '96
1:08,014 --- Audi R8 4.2 FSI R tronic '07
(1:08,375 --- BMW M5 '05)
1:09,054 --- RUF RGT '00

1:09,161 --- BMW M4 Coupé
(1:10,110 --- BMW M3 GTR '03)
1:10,530 --- BMW M3 CSL '03

1:10,552 --- RUF 3400S '00
1:10,573 --- RUF BTR '86 (SH/SM)
1:10,700 --- BMW M5 '08
1:10,963 --- Audi RS 6 Avant '08
1:11,479 --- BMW Z4 M Coupe '08
(1:12,109 --- BMW M3 '04)
1:12,205 --- Audi RS 4 '01
1:12,247 --- Mercedes-Benz SL 600 (R230) '04
1:12,631 --- Mercedes-Benz E 55 AMG '02
1:13,001 --- BMW Concept 1 Series tii '07
(1:13,009 --- Audi RS 6 '02)
1:13,477 --- Audi TTS Coupe '09
1:13,699 --- Mercedes-Benz CLK 55 AMG '00
1:13,907 --- Volkswagen Scirocco R '10

1:14,107 --- Opel Speedster Turbo '00

1:14,547 --- Mercedes-Benz SL 500 (R230) '02
(1:14,590 --- Mercedes-Benz SL 600 (R129) '98)
1:16,057 --- Mercedes-Benz CL 600 '00

Online test, tire/fuel: very fast, grip: real, tires: SM, BB: 5/5, ABS: 1

()____only 1 series per model, so series in brackets are optional to the chosen series
italic__these models are in the "Premium Sports Coupe" list potentially
bold__these models I wish to be definately in the list

I know that there are way more tests to be done, on different tracks and by different drivers. But the results on GVER provide some good references at the moment.👍
The cars should be tested on a more twisty track (e.g. Laguna Seca) and a longer track with a lot of straights (e.g. Monza). This should create convincing data in my opinion.

At the moment I marked 13 models bold. So 2 more should be chosen after further tests to make the list complete.
Of course series of a model may be changed, models may be cut, others make be added. The process just started.

Some words on my first impressions:

The CTR2 has power,power,power but massive understeer too.
The R8 pretends being 4WD (it is indeed) but drives like a very stable MR, really fantastic.
Contrary to that the 3400S is a MR stable like a 4WD, I was very surprised of it's good handling.👍
The BMWs are all a dream, little oversteer but very controllable. It's kind of sad that the Z4 might have to leave the list but of course it will be great fun to drive it in "Premium Sports Coupe" list. The M 5 '05 is fastest but also most tricky one, so I decided to choose the '08 series but of course this can be discussed and may vary after further tests.
The Audis come with a lot of understeer, the RS 4 was quite okay though.
The Speedster: wow! Very stable MR and really quick for only 430 PP.👍
The Scirocco R was better then expected too, barely understeer.
I was a bit disapointed by the Mercedes. The CL 600 is so slow, E 55 AMG has not the best handling, SL 600 and CLK 55 AMG were okay. Actually the SL 500 felt best though it has the lowest power.

RE: SSRX & top speeds
They should ONLY be judged against top speeds at SSRX.
IE: no mixing "straight at GVS" and "SSRX top speed".
This avoids the issues of SSRX being relevant. Because the cars are merely compared against each other.

FYI: The top speeds at SSRX are mainly to find potential limiter issues in slipstream draft scenarios.
IE: DO not schedule a 1-make race with this car at Indy SS or SSR7!
(So this data is MAINLY for the host, and for people picking combos.)

Unfortunately... there's no other easy track to test top speeds, because it all involves getting out of the turn before the straight properly. :/

I will do the top speed tests for the listed cars for sure.
Actually there is one track that comes to my mind where to test top speed quite easily: Fuji Speedway.💡
You could create a TT with final turn start and check the top speeds at the braking point at the end of this 1,5 km long straight. The last turn must no even be taken perfect as snowgt was explaining.

But I can also test the top speeds on SSRX if that's the preferred testing procedure.

Anyway, current working list:

Premium Sports Coupes (initial preliminary view)

1. Hyundai Genesis Coupe 3.8 Track '13
   
2. Nissan SKYLINE Coupe 370GT Type SP '07
3. Lotus Evora '09
4. BMW Z4 M Coupé '08
5. Lotus Esprit V8 '02
6. Jaguar XKR Coupe '10
7. Cadillac CTS-V Coupé '11
8. Nissan Fairlady Z (Z34) '08
9. Chevrolet Corvette Z06 (C5) '04
10. Aston Martin V12 Vantage '10
11. TVR Tamora ’02
12. Honda NSX Type R '02
13. SRT Viper GTS '02
14. Alfa Romeo 8C Competizione '08
15. Ferrari California '08
16. Chevrolet Corvette Stingray (C7) '14

The Ferrari is uncuttable, btw. And yes, there are still two Corvettes, but I'd only part with one reluctantly.

Even though it's not on the working list, I'm still going to run the Audi TTS at a few tracks to evaluate its relative gaps to the other slow fellers before I toss it completely.

That list is really interesting and I would like to help testing these cars too.
The collection is very promising in my opinion.👍

 

[tarnheld]

Actually there is one track that comes to my mind where to test top speed quite easily: Fuji Speedway.💡

Fuji is really good for top speed testing! 👍 Maybe SSRX is on a different planet with nitrous atmosphere.

 

[tarnheld]

I finished the first round of the Classic cars @ Big Willow:

1:20.126 Ferrari GTO '84
1:20.882 Lamborghini Miura P400 Bertone Prototype CN.0706 '67
1:20.949 Ford GT40 Mark I '66
1:21.386 Lamborghini Countach LP400 '74
1:22.196 Mazda RX500 '70
1:22.271 Ferrari 365 GTB4 '71
1:22.542 Shelby Cobra 427 '66 (hits limiter at 250 km/h)
1:22.647 RUF CTR "Yellow Bird" '87
1:22.733 Lamborghini Countach 25th Anniversary '88
1:23.267 AC Cars 427 S/C '66
1:23.940 Ferrari 512BB '76
1:24.762 Isuzu 4200R '89
1:25.389 Ferrari 250 GTO CN.3729GT '62
1:27.430 Ford RS200 '84
1:27.626 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 '69 (hits limiter at 210 km/h )
1:27.709 Ferrari Dino 246 GT '71

As this is mainly a high speed track, the gap to the slower cars is more pronounced, maybe we need to find some gap filler. The Camaro has the muscle car transmission problems, the Shelby too, but it's manageable on this track, could be a problem on tracks with longer straights. The A/C Cobra is probably also limited by this. I would axe the Camaro, but i am not sure about the Cobras.

I really like the cars in this list, there are great handling cars that you can push to the limit easily like the RX500, the 4200R and the 365GTB4, and tricky cars with lots of power like the Yellowbird, the GTO '84 and the GT40. Once this list is finished, the races will be awesome!

 

[snowgt]

I finished the first round of the Classic cars @ Big Willow:

1:20.126 Ferrari GTO '84
1:20.882 Lamborghini Miura P400 Bertone Prototype CN.0706 '67
1:20.949 Ford GT40 Mark I '66
1:21.386 Lamborghini Countach LP400 '74
1:22.196 Mazda RX500 '70
1:22.271 Ferrari 365 GTB4 '71
1:22.542 Shelby Cobra 427 '66 (hits limiter at 250 km/h)
1:22.647 RUF CTR "Yellow Bird" '87
1:22.733 Lamborghini Countach 25th Anniversary '88
1:23.267 AC Cars 427 S/C '66
1:23.940 Ferrari 512BB '76
1:24.762 Isuzu 4200R '89
1:25.389 Ferrari 250 GTO CN.3729GT '62
1:27.430 Ford RS200 '84
1:27.626 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 '69 (hits limiter at 210 km/h )
1:27.709 Ferrari Dino 246 GT '71

As this is mainly a high speed track, the gap to the slower cars is more pronounced, maybe we need to find some gap filler. The Camaro has the muscle car transmission problems, the Shelby too, but it's manageable on this track, could be a problem on tracks with longer straights. The A/C Cobra is probably also limited by this. I would axe the Camaro, but i am not sure about the Cobras.

I really like the cars in this list, there are great handling cars that you can push to the limit easily like the RX500, the 4200R and the 365GTB4, and tricky cars with lots of power like the Yellowbird, the GTO '84 and the GT40. Once this list is finished, the races will be awesome!

Started with this list and as I knew about the Camaro's top speed, discarded it right away. The gap at the bottom could be filled with these candidates... (I drew the line at 1990)

Chevrolet Corvette ZR-1 (C4) '90
Honda NSX '90
Lotus Esprit Turbo HC '87

Tested these already and they fit nicely with (above) the Dino at the bottom. (I'm testing at Suzuka 2014)

Regarding the Cobras, top speed could be a problem on some tracks. The question is how late you hit the limiter on a straight - sometimes it might even be acceptable, but e.g. Le Mans No Chicane would probably be impossible. Maybe allow an exception to choose the slower car, if a race is on such a track? Let's wait though, if it makes the final list.

 

[tarnheld]

I tested your candidates on Big Willow, here is the slower part of the bunch with the new additions:

1:25.389 Ferrari 250 GTO CN.3729GT '62
1:26.296 Chevrolet Corvette ZR-1 (C4) '90
1:26.895 Lotus Esprit Turbo HC '87
1:27.430 Ford RS200 '84
1:27.490 Honda NSX '90
1:27.709 Ferrari Dino 246 GT '71

The NSX can go faster, but i was afraid of pushing it too hard -- it's tricky at the limit. Altogether they fit nicely! 👍

 

[snowgt]

Classic car list candidates testing at Suzuka 2014 complete.

Time / Top Speed at Suzuka / Top Speed SSRX ("L" if it hits limiter) / Car

2:25,116 210 290 Ferrari Dino 246 GT '71
2:23,641 218 280 Lotus Esprit Turbo HC '87
2:23,342 221 314L Honda NSX '90
2:22,563 233 333 Chevrolet Corvette ZR-1 (C4) '90
2:21,984 216 280 Ford RS200 '84
2:19,524 237 254L Ferrari 250 GTO CN.3729GT '62
2:19,410 228 291L Isuzu 4200R '89
2:19,054 234 297L Mitsubishi HSR-II '89
2:17,197 240 325L Ferrari 512BB '76
2:16,853 246 323 RUF BTR '86
2:15,270 234 249L Mazda RX500 '70
2:15,026 253 272L AC Cars 427 S/C '66
2:14,656 250 307L Lamborghini Countach 25th Anniversary '88
2:14,076 239 303L Ferrari 365 GTB4 '71
2:13,384 252 321L Lamborghini Countach LP400 '74
2:13,196 261 344 RUF CTR "Yellow Bird" '87
2:12,707 250 250L Shelby Cobra 427 '66
2:11,965 255 299L Lamborghini Miura P400 Bertone Prototype CN.0706 '67
2:10,190 259 325L Ferrari GTO '84
2:09,741 256 273L Ford GT40 Mark I '66

It's interesting how I get quite a different order to @tarnheld , especially with some cars (maybe something to do with "accessibility"…?). I've also included the SSRX top speeds with an 'L' indicating, if the car hits the limiter at all. With most of them, the limit is so high you will never get there on any normal track (the difference between Suzuka top speed and SSRX being an indicator for that).

However, the Shelby Cobra already hits the limiter at Suzuka and definitely on many other tracks. The AC Cobra might be a better choice as it has some more room under the limiter (although it still might top out somewhere). The Mazda RX500 might also top out at faster tracks as maybe also the Ferrari 250GTO and the Ford GT40. All other cars should not cause a problem with the limiter.

I found that the RUFs are a bit easier to drive than I remembered. That doesn't mean they are exactly easy to drive.

Even though Suzuka is a long track, the spread between these cars is already pretty big. Might need some cuts at the top or the bottom.

There's a gap in the times between the Ford RS200 and the Ferrari 250GTO. Might be track-specific though.

 

[tarnheld]

It's interesting how I get quite a different order to @tarnheld , especially with some cars (maybe something to do with "accessibility"…?). I've also included the SSRX top speeds with an 'L' indicating, if the car hits the limiter at all. With most of them, the limit is so high you will never get there on any normal track (the difference between Suzuka top speed and SSRX being an indicator for that).

I certainly didn't access the limits of the tricky cars, i hit my limiter first. So take my list as the average joe list. I had more practice in the GTO and the Miura though, as i like these cars a lot!

Even though Suzuka is a long track, the spread between these cars is already pretty big. Might need some cuts at the top or the bottom.

It's tough to cut anywhere, so many nice cars there. But if we want a bunching a the bottom/slow part, there are not many gap fillers left to consider. Would have to cut right at the 250 GTO.

I plan to do another round @ Ascari. Let's see what's the outcome there.

 

[snowgt]

This list might benefit from
@snowgt running
Volkswagen Golf I GTI '76
(comfort soft) on Motegi East
Because I don't have a time from snow from VW Golf 76
(It has a tie with the Ballade right now.)
(I also can complete another set of times. I am 4 cars short now of having 2 tracks completed with all cars.)

Motegi East, CS, Time / Speed at Start/Finish / Speed at end of straight...

1:50.429 121 164 Volkswagen Golf I GTI '76

So, it's slightly faster than the Ballade in my view. (at least at Motegi)

 

[snowgt]

Did some more testing regarding limiter on Classics car list. I basically ran all cars that even can run into the limiter on the following tracks:

SSR7, Monza No Chicane, Fuji, Indy Road.

Fuji & Indy Road pretty much yield the same top speeds, Monza NC shows slightly higher ones.

Cars that hit the limiter on all tested tracks (so I would say they have to be cut):
Mazda RX500 '70
Shelby Cobra 427 '66
Ford GT40 Mark I '66

Cars that didn't hit the limiter on Fuji/Indy, but did on Monza NC:
AC Cars 427 S/C '66
Ferrari 250 GTO CN.3729GT '62

In my view, that would still be acceptable, as both run into the limiter only just before you ease off into Curva Grande. It doesn't really affect lap time, and it's pretty much the only track apart from Le Mans NC and SSR7 where this would happen.

Cars that hit the limiter on SSR7 only (which shouldn't be a problem anywhere else):
Mitsubishi HSR-II '89
Lamborghini Countach 25th Anniversary '88
Lamborghini Countach LP400 '74
Lamborghini Miura P400 Bertone Prototype CN.0706 '67

All other cars that hit the limiter on SSRX don't even get there on SSR7. So, that basically narrows the list down to this…

Ferrari Dino 246 GT '71
Lotus Esprit Turbo HC '87
Honda NSX '90
Chevrolet Corvette ZR-1 (C4) '90
Ford RS200 '84
Ferrari 250 GTO CN.3729GT '62
Isuzu 4200R '89
Mitsubishi HSR-II '89
Ferrari 512BB '76
RUF BTR '86
AC Cars 427 S/C '66
Lamborghini Countach 25th Anniversary '88
Ferrari 365 GTB4 '71
Lamborghini Countach LP400 '74
RUF CTR "Yellow Bird" '87
Lamborghini Miura P400 Bertone Prototype CN.0706 '67
Ferrari GTO '84

That's 17 cars with a spread of 15 seconds at Suzuka, so maybe it could work (should be something like 10-12s on a 1:30-1:45 track as the more powerful cars benefit the most from longer straights, which is where the gap mostly comes from). If I had to cut a car, it would probably be the Mitsubishi, as it's only a concept, and is not really that much fun to drive. The RUF BTR is a challenge for anyone though, I admit.

 

[snowgt]

Legends (revamped)

1. Renault R5 Turbo '80
2. Mercedes-Benz 300 SL Coupé '54
3. Alpine A110 1600S '73
4. Nissan Skyline Hard Top 2000 Turbo RS (R30) '83
5. Lotus Europa Special '72
6. Jaguar E-Type Coupe '61
7. Lancia Stratos '73
8. Nissan Fairlady Z 300ZX (Z31) '83
9. Pontiac Firebird Trans Am '78
10. DMC DeLorean S2 '04
11. Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z Concept '88
12. Dome Zero '78
13. Peugeot 205 Turbo 16 '85
14. Nissan Fairlady Z 300ZX TT 2seater (Z32) '89
15. Nissan Silvia 240RS (S110) '83
16. Toyota Sprinter Trueno GT-Apex (AE86 Shuichi Shigeno Version) '00
17. Ford RS200 '84 <------------ Maybe too fast for this list, even as fastest car

The bold cars need further comparison testing.

Motegi East, CS...

1:44,222 132 180 Renault R5 Turbo '80
1:45,380 136 186 Mercedes-Benz 300 SL Coupé '54
1:43,860 132 181 Alpine A110 1600S '73
1:45,373 131 181 Nissan Skyline Hard Top 2000 Turbo RS (R30) '83

1:42,008 138 189 Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z Concept '88
1:41,727 136 190 Dome Zero '78
1:41,649 136 185 Peugeot 205 Turbo 16 '85

 

[watermelon punch]

Well I now have enough to buy that Ferrari. And then some. 👍

 

[snowgt]

It's a conundrum.
The Renault is very likely faster than the 300SL at many tracks (if not most).

But it also drives like an IV drip stand.

After driving it at Deep Forest under racing conditions yesterday, I have to say it's a challenge, but I rarely had this much fun driving. Already in practice when I was following you in the Stratos I had a big grin on my face. The car is constantly sliding around corners at a slight angle, but if you manage to keep it under control, it's so rewarding!

And yes, I'd say it's faster than the 300SL on most tracks that actually include a couple of turns.

 

[snowgt]

I wasn't clear I guess about my concerns with spread on my list... I was worried that it wasn't enough, actually, hence my desire for a few more slower cars. I've pruned it down to 16 at the moment, with a 6 second spread at Laguna (same spread as the Luxury list). I'm still weighing the reintroduction of the 430 and GT-R at the fast end of the list, which would enhance the spread to 7s or so, and require further cuts (I have a group in there that's running too close to each other, which needs to be pruned anyway) -- the 430 and GT-R mark the bottom end of supercar territory, though.

Anyway, current working list:

Premium Sports Coupes (initial preliminary view)

1. Hyundai Genesis Coupe 3.8 Track '13
   
2. Nissan SKYLINE Coupe 370GT Type SP '07
3. Lotus Evora '09
4. BMW Z4 M Coupé '08
5. Lotus Esprit V8 '02
6. Jaguar XKR Coupe '10
7. Cadillac CTS-V Coupé '11
8. Nissan Fairlady Z (Z34) '08
9. Chevrolet Corvette Z06 (C5) '04
10. Aston Martin V12 Vantage '10
11. TVR Tamora ’02
12. Honda NSX Type R '02
13. SRT Viper GTS '02
14. Alfa Romeo 8C Competizione '08
15. Ferrari California '08
16. Chevrolet Corvette Stingray (C7) '14

The Ferrari is uncuttable, btw. And yes, there are still two Corvettes, but I'd only part with one reluctantly.

Even though it's not on the working list, I'm still going to run the Audi TTS at a few tracks to evaluate its relative gaps to the other slow fellers before I toss it completely.

Looking at my archive data and also the one from your own testing, I definitely would agree it's not enough of a spread. The good thing is though, that there's a huge number of cars (I have identified over 100) that could fit at any point of your Premium Sports Coupé list.

Oh, and I just realised that "Premium" apparently not only refers to "high-class", but also to premium models in the game, if I'm looking at that list, am I right? In that case, it's still about 60 possible cars.

I'll just go to work starting with your list, and then make a couple of suggestions, if I may. E.g. adding on the fast end, how does a Ferrari 599 or a Mercedes SLR sound...? They would fit perfectly to "spread" the list on the fast end and they fit with the theme, I think.

 

[tarnheld]

Cars that hit the limiter on all tested tracks (so I would say they have to be cut):
Mazda RX500 '70
Shelby Cobra 427 '66
Ford GT40 Mark I '66

Cars that didn't hit the limiter on Fuji/Indy, but did on Monza NC:
AC Cars 427 S/C '66
Ferrari 250 GTO CN.3729GT '62

In my view, that would still be acceptable, as both run into the limiter only just before you ease off into Curva Grande. It doesn't really affect lap time, and it's pretty much the only track apart from Le Mans NC and SSR7 where this would happen.

Interesting comparisons here. 👍 I'm curious about the 250 GTO, as it has almost 50km/h SSRX top speed difference to the Isuzu 4200R. Does this show in a greater time gap at Monza, as they had pretty comparable times at Suzuka?

BTW, really sad about the RX500, would have been a great addition... But all cars that need cutting are a real loss here. Maybe i just need to let go...

BTW, as we have considered the almost race cars 250 GTO, GT40 and concepts RX500 and 4200R, why not add the

Alfa Romeo GIULIA TZ2 carrozzata da ZAGATO CN.AR750106 '65, cost 10 mill Cr. ?

Great handling, nice sound, rare classic car, what do you want more? Could be riddled by limiter problems too, though...

 

[snowgt]

Interesting comparisons here. 👍 I'm curious about the 250 GTO, as it has almost 50km/h SSRX top speed difference to the Isuzu 4200R. Does this show in a greater time gap at Monza, as they had pretty comparable times at Suzuka?

BTW, really sad about the RX500, would have been a great addition... But all cars that need cutting are a real loss here. Maybe i just need to let go...

BTW, as we have considered the almost race cars 250 GTO, GT40 and concepts RX500 and 4200R, why not add the

Alfa Romeo GIULIA TZ2 carrozzata da ZAGATO CN.AR750106 '65, cost 10 mill Cr. ?

Great handling, nice sound, rare classic car, what do you want more? Could be riddled by limiter problems too, though...

Bear in mind that at SSRX you accelerate where it's flat up to almost full speed, then you go up the hill without losing much speed, and then you have an almost 1km downhill part where you reach much higher speeds than you could actually reach on any track. So, yes, the Isuzu hits the limiter at 291km/h, but will it get there on a flat piece of road? No. It will probably go as high as 270, maybe 275, if the straight is long enough.

I didn't actually test over a whole lap at Monza, so I can't really tell you, how big the effect is there. The 250GTO's acceleration sort of subsides close to the red line (at about 240km/h), because power drops off sharply, and for sure the other cars at about the same pace, and also the ones which are usually slower over a lap will be able to gain some time, but even at Monza, this only comes into play at the last seconds of the straights, so the difference will not be massive. If you look at my times from Suzuka, you can see that e.g. the Isuzu is still about 10km/h slower than the 250GTO at the end of the straight, so it first needs to make that up, and only then will it gain time. So, for the first part of any straight, the 250GTO will always be faster and only if the straight's really long, the Isuzu might gain something back at the end.

The Alfa is a great car to drive, and with tuning prohibited, it wouldn't even matter that it has everything customizable on the car. I think that it will generate a mismatch with all other cars (no matter which) though, as it is rather low-powered, but is very fast in corners and you can be very late on the brakes. So, even though it might be able to hold its own with much higher-powered cars from a lap time perspective, its performance will hugely depend on the track. That, combined with the price tag, makes it a bit difficult to fit into any list. Don't know where the limiter is by default.

 

[watermelon punch]

Really need these 2 cars tested somewhere once more:

Volkswagen Golf I GTI '76
Nissan Silvia Q's (S13) '88

And then we have a Retro list. 👍

Thanks!
I would do it but I've already done 2 sets of Retro list, and 1 extra of these cars, and I think the tie breaker should probably be done by someone more fast & precise than myself.

Note:
I already have these cars from these people on these tracks:

snowgt @ motegi east
amarynceos @ Tskuba
me @ Deep Forest, Rome Reverse, & matterhorn riffelsee

 

[watermelon punch]

And this is the Legends List revamped... draft proposal.

1. Mercedes-Benz 300 SL Coupé '54
   
2. Renault R5 Turbo '80
   
3. Nissan Skyline Hard Top 2000 Turbo RS (R30) '83
4. Alpine A110 1600S '73
5. Lotus Europa Special '72
6. Jaguar E-Type Coupe '61
7. Lancia Stratos '73
8. Nissan Fairlady Z 300ZX (Z31) '83
9. Pontiac Firebird Trans Am '78
10. Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z Concept '88
    
11. DMC DeLorean S2 '04
    
12. Dome Zero '78
13. Peugeot 205 Turbo 16 '85
14. Nissan Fairlady Z 300ZX TT 2seater (Z32) '89
15. Nissan Silvia 240RS (S110) '83
16. Toyota Sprinter Trueno GT-Apex (AE86 Shuichi Shigeno Version) '00

ANY THOUGHTS??

 

[snowgt]

And this is the Legends List revamped... draft proposal.

1. Mercedes-Benz 300 SL Coupé '54
   
2. Renault R5 Turbo '80
   
3. Nissan Skyline Hard Top 2000 Turbo RS (R30) '83
4. Alpine A110 1600S '73
5. Lotus Europa Special '72
6. Jaguar E-Type Coupe '61
7. Lancia Stratos '73
8. Nissan Fairlady Z 300ZX (Z31) '83
9. Pontiac Firebird Trans Am '78
10. Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z Concept '88
    
11. DMC DeLorean S2 '04
    
12. Dome Zero '78
13. Peugeot 205 Turbo 16 '85
14. Nissan Fairlady Z 300ZX TT 2seater (Z32) '89
15. Nissan Silvia 240RS (S110) '83
16. Toyota Sprinter Trueno GT-Apex (AE86 Shuichi Shigeno Version) '00

ANY THOUGHTS??

The Nissan Silvia 240RS runs into the limiter on many tracks. (203km/h)

 

[amarynceos]

Looks good, apart from that horrible Skyline still being on there.

Looking at my archive data and also the one from your own testing, I definitely would agree it's not enough of a spread. The good thing is though, that there's a huge number of cars (I have identified over 100) that could fit at any point of your Premium Sports Coupé list.

Oh, and I just realised that "Premium" apparently not only refers to "high-class", but also to premium models in the game, if I'm looking at that list, am I right? In that case, it's still about 60 possible cars.

I'll just go to work starting with your list, and then make a couple of suggestions, if I may. E.g. adding on the fast end, how does a Ferrari 599 or a Mercedes SLR sound...? They would fit perfectly to "spread" the list on the fast end and they fit with the theme, I think.

Premium models, correct.

I agree on adding onto the fast end, I've already reintroduced the F430 and GT-R '07, which had been cut at some point. It could use a couple more faster cars and some trimming in the middle.

I've completed one set of times at Nurb GP/F of that tentative list plus some other other candidates. There are some groupings and some gaps that I don't like, but it's only one set of data of course. I've included all the cars I've run for reference.

Nurburgring GP/F / SM / Offline TT / Grip reduction real / ABS 1 / 3 laps
Time -- car -- speed at start/finish / end of straight (mph)

2:08.457 -- Ferrari F430 '06 = 115/152
2:08.601 -- Nissan GT-R '07 = 113/149

2:09.417 -- Chevrolet Corvette Stingray (C7) '14 = 112/149
2:09.875 -- Audi R8 4.2 FSI R tronic '07 = 107/143

2:10.223 -- BMW M4 Coupe = 110/145
2:10.128 -- Ferrari California '08 = 110/144
2:10.782 -- Aston Martin V12 Vantage '10 = 112/147
2:10.949 -- Ferrari 365 GTB4 '71 = 109/142

2:11.139 -- SRT Viper GTS '02 = 110/143
2:11.930 -- TVR Tuscan Speed 6 '00 = 109/142

2:12.302 -- TVR Tamora ’02 = 108/142
2:12.401 -- Alfa Romeo 8C Competizione '08 = 108/143
2:12.485 -- Chevrolet Corvette Z06 (C5) '04 = 108/144
2:12.782 -- Lotus Esprit V8 '02 = 106/140
2:12.951 -- Honda NSX Type R '02 = 104/137

2:13.023 -- Chevrolet Camaro SS '10 = 106/139
2:13.631 -- Ferrari 512 BB '76 = 108/142

2:14.506 -- Jaguar XKR Coupe '10 = 109/144
2:14.674 -- Ford Mustang Boss 302 '13 = 107/141

2:15.948 -- Lotus Evora '09 = ???/???

2:16.011 -- Cadillac CTS-V Coupé '11 = 108/142
2:16.107 -- BMW Z4 M Coupé '08 = ???/???
2:16.956 -- Nissan SKYLINE GT-R V∙spec II Nür (R34) '02 = 101/133

2:17.709 -- Nissan Fairlady Z (Z34) '08 = 100/133

2:18.578 -- Hyundai Genesis Coupe 3.8 Track '13 = 100/134

2:19.125 -- Nissan Skyline Coupe 370GT Type SP '07 = 99/131

(forgot to log speeds for Evora and Z4 M, have to go back and do that)

Bolded cars are the ones on that tentative list. Of those there are already some definite cuts: The '04 C5 and the CTS-V are getting tossed to make room for more cars at the top end. Some of the cars that are clustering in the 2:12 range probably need to go as well (I'm in the middle of a Fuji F test and they're all clustering again there). The Genesis and the Skyline Coupe are also teetering on the edge in favour of adding more at the fast end.

So this is kind of what I'm looking at now


2:08.457 -- Ferrari F430 '06 = 115/152
2:08.601 -- Nissan GT-R '07 = 113/149

2:09.417 -- Chevrolet Corvette Stingray (C7) '14 = 112/149

2:10.128 -- Ferrari California '08 = 110/144
2:10.782 -- Aston Martin V12 Vantage '10 = 112/147

2:11.139 -- SRT Viper GTS '02 = 110/143
2:11.930 -- TVR Tuscan Speed 6 '00 = 109/142

2:12.401 -- Alfa Romeo 8C Competizione '08 = 108/143
2:12.782 -- Lotus Esprit V8 '02 = 106/140
2:12.951 -- Honda NSX Type R '02 = 104/137

gap here might be just a product of this particular track

2:14.506 -- Jaguar XKR Coupe '10 = 109/144
2:14.674 -- Ford Mustang Boss 302 '13 = 107/141

2:15.948 -- Lotus Evora '09 = ???/???

2:16.107 -- BMW Z4 M Coupé '08 = ???/???
2:16.956 -- Nissan SKYLINE GT-R V∙spec II Nür (R34) '02 = 101/133

2:17.709 -- Nissan Fairlady Z (Z34) '08 = 100/133

Plus two more fast cars and some pruning in the middle. The 599 is on my list to test. I also tested an LFA at 2:07.xxx (didn't like the handling on SMs) and a 458 Italia at 2:06.2.

Also, times at Fuji I've collected so far:
Fuji Speedway F

1:46.755 -- Ferrari F430 '06 = 158/175

1:48.439 -- Chevrolet Corvette Stingray (C7) '14 = 155/173
.
.
.
1:50.597 -- Alfa Romeo 8C Competizione '08 = 150/166
1:50.532 -- Honda NSX Type R '02 = 141/157
1:50.880 -- Lotus Esprit V8 '02 = 144/161
(1:50.935 -- Chevrolet Camaro SS '10 = 144/159)

1:51.035 -- Jaguar XKR Coupe '10 = 152/169

1:52.067 -- Ford Mustang Boss 302 '13 = 146/158

1:53.401 -- BMW Z4 M Coupé '08 = 140/157
1:53.656 -- Lotus Evora '09 = 134/151
1:53.883 -- Nissan SKYLINE GT-R V∙spec II Nür (R34) '02 = 137/152

1:55.073 -- Nissan Fairlady Z (Z34) '08 = 137/154

1:56.493 -- Hyundai Genesis Coupe 3.8 Track '13 = 137/152

 

[snowgt]

List building is addictive. I already have another idea for after testing all through amarynceos's Premium Sports list. I call it "Pre-Millennium Sports", and it covers sort of the sharp end of the 90's. I already narrowed it down to 22 cars. Now, when am I supposed to test those...?!?

 

[Patrick8308]

List building is addictive. I already have another idea for after testing all through amarynceos's Premium Sports list. I call it "Pre-Millennium Sports", and it covers sort of the sharp end of the 90's. I already narrowed it down to 22 cars. Now, when am I supposed to test those...?!?

The Premium Sports list is really interesting and will probably result in a great list.👍

Maybe you have registered that I had thrown a German Car List in, already have done a complete run on GVER and checked top speeds on SSRX.

Would you like to be testing this suggested list too? Or is this not that interesting to you?

 

[tarnheld]

List building is addictive.

Would you like to be testing this suggested list too?

Well, it's definitely addicitve, would like to clone myself thrice to do more testing. @Patrick8308, you need just a little bit more patience, i wanted to do the cut down part of the Schwarzwald League, but haven't found the time yet...

@Chiochan, what about your Rallye list? I thought about that too, seems there are some low power/vintage rallye cars, and then a lot of WRC cars and at the top end the Group B bolides. What type do you prefer?

 

[Patrick8308]

@Patrick8308, you need just a little bit more patience, i wanted to do the cut down part of the Schwarzwald League, but haven't found the time yet...

Don't get me wrong, there's no need to hurry and I don't want to stress others.

All I wanted was to remind of my suggested German Car List.

I know that you and @watermelon punch like the list and maybe would be involved in testing them when there's time.👍

But actually I'm also curious what other club members think of it, if this list is interesting at all or they would rather focus on other car categories.

2:09.875 -- Audi R8 4.2 FSI R tronic '07 = 107/143

2:10.223 -- BMW M4 Coupe = 110/145

Besides that I recognized that the R8 and M4 Coupe are on the Premium Sports Coupes list, at the moment not bold.

I would be glad if those could keep that status and wouldn't make it to the final list so they can stay in the Schwarzwald League.

Have we considered a Rally collection? I noticed the increased interest in snow tracks, and a rally group might be fun for all to throw around once in a while. Any interest and I could get a list together.

I haven't been a big fan of Rally Racing since it appeared in GT. Actually I'm not quite good at it too.
But I always loved the rally cars. And some racing on dirt/snow in those cars would be fun I guess.
So this is actually a great suggestion.👍

About the Classic List Credits:

Ford RS200 '84 - 160000 Cr
Isuzu 4200R '89 - 300000 Cr
Ferrari Dino 246 GT '71 - 90000 Cr
Chevrolet Camaro Z28 '69 - 65000 Cr
Ferrari 250 GTO CN.3729GT '62 - 20000000 Cr
Ferrari 512BB '76 - 102500 Cr
Ferrari GTO '84 - 1250000 Cr
Ford GT40 Mark I '66 - 2800000 Cr
RUF CTR "Yellow Bird" '87 - 236630 Cr
Shelby Cobra 427 '66 - 530550 Cr
Lamborghini Countach LP400 '74 - 216600 Cr
Lamborghini Miura P400 Bertone Prototype CN.0706 '67 - 15000000 Cr
Mazda RX500 '70 - 500000 Cr
Ferrari 365 GTB4 '71 - 550000 Cr
AC Cars 427 S/C '66 - 423200 Cr
Lamborghini Countach 25th Anniversary '88 - 182000 Cr

Credits for whole list: 42,406,480 Cr
Credits without 2 most exp. cars: 7,406,480 Cr
Credits without 4 most exp. cars: 3,356,480 Cr

So @snowgt's idea to allow stripping the 2-4 most expensive cars and use the next slower one seems a good idea.
But the one who does so loses two GTOs, the Miura, and the GT40. So start that grinding today! 👍

The Classics List is really impressive. But sadly I don't own much of these yet.

I haven't been doing much credit grinding in GT6 yet as there's so many cars directly available from the dealership (contrary to former titles) that you have options to choose a cheaper car. So I never had the situation of wanting/ needing to buy a Miura or 250 GTO.

My question is: how do you guys grind credits? What is your favorite strategy?

I know a lot do the Red Bull events but I don't like the feeling of this car at all.

Then there's the Nascar Cup @ Motegi, 170,000 Cr. in 3:10 min seems quite effective but it's als very boring.

Any better suggestions?

 

[snowgt]

The Premium Sports list is really interesting and will probably result in a great list.👍

Maybe you have registered that I had thrown a German Car List in, already have done a complete run on GVER and checked top speeds on SSRX.

Would you like to be testing this suggested list too? Or is this not that interesting to you?

It's also on my radar. I might be able to connect that with the Premium Sports list, i.e. running them both on the same track, so no matter where a car will end up, the times would be comparable.

 

[tarnheld]

My question is: how do you guys grind credits? What is your favorite strategy?

QuickMatch pays well these days, but the last time i tried the Megane QM, i got the triple beep PS3 crash. Got 170.000 Cr. for place 11/13 though, in the one race i did. But you need to watch your blood pressure, it's a crash derby... Offline i do the RedBull Jr. Championship, fast and easy money.

R8 and M4 Coupe are on the Premium Sports Coupes list

BTW, what's the consensus about cars being in multiple lists? I figure that it should be possible, as there is no car mix-up possible like when two cars with almost the same name are in the same list. It's easier on the wallet, as you only have to buy one car for many lists. It would benefit some lists, for example the M4 is a Premium Sports Coupe and a german car.

 

[snowgt]

QuickMatch pays well these days, but the last time i tried the Megane QM, i got the triple beep PS3 crash. Got 170.000 Cr. for place 11/13 though, in the one race i did. But you need to watch your blood pressure, it's a crash derby... Offline i do the RedBull Jr. Championship, fast and easy money.

BTW, what's the consensus about cars being in multiple lists? I figure that it should be possible, as there is no car mix-up possible like when two cars with almost the same name are in the same list. It's easier on the wallet, as you only have to buy one car for many lists. It would benefit some lists, for example the M4 is a Premium Sports Coupe and a german car.

QuickMatch is so buggy, it's frustrating. I have a great connection and even though I get disconnected 4 times out of 5 (incidentally I tried a total of 5 times and never again). I don't know how anyone ever gets to run these races.

I think we should be careful not to overdo it with lists, so that newcomers don't need 50 million in the bank and 3 weeks spare time to buy all these cars. So, in that sense, it's probably not a bad idea to allow for the possibility of double usage, but still limit it to a maximum of two (at least for now). To avoid being in the same car too often, such a car should be towards the slow end of a list only once as those cars get used constantly (as long as we don't employ "shifting" car assignments).

 

[watermelon punch]

My question is: how do you guys grind credits? What is your favorite strategy?

My favourite strategy is having my husband do my seasonals and Quick Matches.
Clearly this is not a strategy for everyone.

Quick Match is certainly NOT boring.
But you must have patience for some nutball driving, and be clever to avoid the Turn 1 drama.
It depends when/where you get in. Some are not so crazy.
The Megane seems to be the best payer. And don't worry if you're in a room with only 3-5 racers. The payout for the podium is still large.
If you make podium, the payout is more than 300k cr. If you come in 6/12, you'll get at least 250-290k.


I'm using the tune posted in the Tuning Section of the forum, and I'm using it on the 15th anniversary Megane.

BTW, what's the consensus about cars being in multiple lists?

I think a car being in more than one list is FINE. If it makes sense.

The idea being that we should not:

Have one car that's in 3+ lists. (Because it's probably that this car is popular, and it would be "overdoing it".)
Make a list that uses 3+ cars from ONE other list. (Because that's almost like creating a duplicate list.)

This would be okay:

Making a list that uses 3 cars from 3 other lists.
Making a list that combines 2+ other lists but in a different way/theme.


The idea is that we don't want to make lists that have the same "feel".
I hope this makes sense.
The lists should be somehow unique... have a theme... and be interesting so that in shuffling, car assignments are not always ideal, but not always bad either.