Makeshift Shuffle Club - Time Trials & Testing for club car lists - all welcomeOpen

[tarnheld]

I think we should be careful not to overdo it with lists, so that newcomers don't need 50 million in the bank and 3 weeks spare time to buy all these cars.

Yes, i too support the optional use of the expensive cars. And to test the Classic list, leave out the Miura and the 250 GTO, and you should be good to go with 4 mill. if you don't own any Classic cars. Your testing will be just as useful without both topmost expensive cars.

 

[watermelon punch]

I think a lot of people interested, or potentially interested, in this type of racing already have lots of cars, and don't have much qualms about purchasing them all.
At least, I think in many cases, the credits $ isn't the problem... but just the time involved in making the purchases and then giving all the cars oil changes. More time if you want custom rims & paint jobs.

Here are the total costs of the cars in the lists we have already.
(Note: This is just the cost to purchase the cars and doesn't include getting the right tires, oil changes, custom standard rims, nor paint of body/rims. At a minimum, you must spend about 5,000 cr. more per list. Of course tires can be purchased in the lobby as needed, and there's no reason you must paint the cars.)

Legends
2,149,900

Luxury
1,671,150

90s Sports
679,930

Low Power
588,180

Vintage
547,370

Hot Hatches
502,650

Retro
408,340

Traffic
391,490


The Low Power list would've been cheapest... only 288,180 cr. if it wasn't for that antique Skyline.
(But that's such a cool Skyline!)

 

[snowgt]

Yes, i too support the optional use of the expensive cars. And to test the Classic list, leave out the Miura and the 250 GTO, and you should be good to go with 4 mill. if you don't own any Classic cars. Your testing will be just as useful without both topmost expensive cars.

Actually, I'm two minds about the 250GTO. It's a very cool car, of course, but I have raced it in an endurance series, so I'm not desperate to have it on a list to be able to finally race it. Its price tag and its low top speed probably make it a candidate to get the axe. The Miura is definitely a keeper though, if you ask me.

 

[tarnheld]

Actually, I'm two minds about the 250GTO. It's a very cool car, of course, but I have raced it in an endurance series, so I'm not desperate to have it on a list to be able to finally race it. Its price tag and its low top speed probably make it a candidate to get the axe. The Miura is definitely a keeper though, if you ask me.

Yeah, the 250 GTO is definitely not needed to make it a cool/drool list. I mean for 20mill. you could buy the whole list incl. the Miura (unaxeable for me ) now that the GT40 is gone. What to the other 250 GTO owners think?

 

[watermelon punch]

THE MERE IDEA OF CUTTING THE MIURA WILL HENCEFORTH NOT EVEN BE MENTIONED!!

 

[watermelon punch]

I've just added all those up, and ALL the current lists, altogether, only cost

6,939,010 cr.

So ... 7million.
That's not really that much at this stage of the game.

Even including non-stock tire purchases, oil changes, custom standard rims, and painting body & rims... You'd need less than 8million for the whole lot.
That's not bad.

If you're a halfway decent driver, and have max login bonus, you can make that by doing 25 Megane Quick Match races. (Though OMG, I wouldn't recommend doing that all in one day. )
Even less if you do other racing, and do the seasonal events each week anyway.
And, btw, the QM races are only about 6 minutes long, plus 90-120 seconds between the races.
I have seen people leeching in the QMs too, btw.

 

[amarynceos]

You can also earn that much in just over an hour of Red Bull Standard championships -- though it's a tossup as to whether that or the Megane QM is the more annoying of the two choices.

 

[snowgt]

You can also earn that much in just over an hour of Red Bull Standard championships -- though it's a tossup as to whether that or the Megane QM is the more annoying of the two choices.

The really annoying thing is when you do the Red Bull Championship and then don't win it, losing out on the championship bonus. The payout for that ordeal is way too little then!!

 

[snowgt]

In case someone's interested in my Pre-Millennium Sports list. These are the ones I'm looking at...

Nismo 270R '94
BMW M Coupe '98
Lotus Carlton '90
Lotus Elise '96
Aston Martin V8 Vantage '99
Nissan Silvia spec-R Aero (S15) '99
Honda S2000 '99
Mazda éfini RX-7 Type RZ (FD) '96
Nissan Skyline GT-R V-Spec (R33) '97
Jaguar XKR Coupe '99
Honda NSX Type S '99
Mazda RX-7 Type RS (FD) '98
Nissan Skyline GT-R V-Spec N1 (R34) '99
Honda NSX Type S Zero '99
Lotus Esprit V8 SE '98
Nismo 400R '96
Lotus Esprit V8 GT '98
TVR Griffith 500 '94
Honda NSX Type R '92
SRT Viper GTS '99
TVR Cerbera Speed 6 '97
RUF CTR2 '96
Cizeta V16T '94
Ferrari F40 '92
Nissan R390 GT1 Road Car '98
Jaguar XJ220 '92
Lamborghini Diablo GT '00

Of course, there could always only be 1 NSX, 1 Esprit, 1 RX-7 or 1 Skyline of any variety on the list, so it would narrow down to 20 already, but the additional varieties make it easier to place one of them at a spot on the list where it might be needed to fill a gap in lap times. Although it's a '00 in the game, I've also put the Diablo on the list, because it was produced all through the 90's and even the "GT"-version came out in '99, so I think it qualifies.

 

[tarnheld]

Any list with the Elise, two TVRs and the F40 is a good list. 👍

 

[Patrick8308]

There's some fine sports cars on the list. 👍
I think it's cool to have a good mix of slower and faster car lists so the diversity grows. The faster cars had been a bit left out in the past and the focus was more on vintage or low power cars. I have to admit I wasn't sure if I would like racing in those slow cars but it can be fun too (depending a bit on the track). But overall I guess a good mixture might be the key to exciting and attractive races.

It seems cleared now that cars may appear multiply on different lists with certain restrictions:

Making a list that uses 3 cars from 3 other lists.
Making a list that combines 2+ other lists but in a different way/theme.

So it might be no problem that the suggested cars are already on other lists.

My favourite strategy is having my husband do my seasonals and Quick Matches.
Clearly this is not a strategy for everyone.

Quick Match is certainly NOT boring.
But you must have patience for some nutball driving, and be clever to avoid the Turn 1 drama.
It depends when/where you get in. Some are not so crazy.
The Megane seems to be the best payer. And don't worry if you're in a room with only 3-5 racers. The payout for the podium is still large.
If you make podium, the payout is more than 300k cr. If you come in 6/12, you'll get at least 250-290k.

It's kind of irrelevant for that thread (unless you consider credit grinding relevant for being able to buy the expensive cars) but I gave those Quick Matches a try. I don't have a "B-Spec" Co-Gamer so I have to do all those races myself.
It's right what @snowgt had expressed, there's a lot server problems and it sometimes needs 2-3 attempts to get in a race lobby.

Of course there's less sportsmanship but actually I expected it to be even worse, it was quite okay. Maybe it helps that cutting corners or bumping results in time penalties. Besides that winning an event is not that important to me as you always make 270,000 - 350,000 cr. And that is my main goal, grinding credits. So if it all get's too crazy I simply stay calm, try to drive clean and see what place I come in.

I have to say I could not understand the payout system completely. My first race I came in 9th/11 and made 270,000 cr., then in another race 4th/5 and got 340,000, 2nd/3 290,000 and so on. It always differed and I could not identify any algorythm.

 

[tarnheld]

THE MERE IDEA OF CUTTING THE MIURA WILL HENCEFORTH NOT EVEN BE MENTIONED!!

Off-topic, but i live next to a Miura! Here in Bielefeld there is the Lenkwerk, a center for local car enthusiasts and oldtimer dealers/restorators. They have glas-garages for rent -- you can put your beloved vehicle there for all to admire and safer than in your own garage. And guess what's stored there: a white Miura!

Here is a link to a better Flickr photo.

I hope to be there sometime when the owner goes for a ride -- the sound... .

EDIT: Another photo, aaahh, those eyelids!

 

[watermelon punch]

Definitely not off topic!

 

[amarynceos]

So, I finished a set of times for the Classics list, reduced as per @snowgt 's suggestions to 17. However, I did not test the 20 million credit Ferrari yet, as I'd have to do a bit more grinding and I'm not convinced the car is worth it.

Laguna Seca offline TT

Time -- Car -- Speed at Start-Finish / Speed at end of straight (mph)

1:38.620 -- Ferrari Dino 246 GT '71 -- 96/114
1:38.398 -- Lotus Esprit Turbo HC '87 -- 98/117
1:38.234 -- Chevrolet Corvette ZR-1 (C4) '90 -- 105/126
1:37.947 -- Honda NSX '90 -- 100/120
1:36.695 -- Ford RS200 '84 -- 100/117
0:00.000 -- Ferrari 250 GTO CN.3729GT '62 -- 000/000
1:36.205 -- Isuzu 4200R '89 -- 103/123
1:35.849 -- Mitsubishi HSR-II '89 -- 108/127
1:34.409 -- Ferrari 512BB '76 -- 110/130
1:34.310 -- RUF BTR '86 -- 112/134
1:33.086 -- Lamborghini Countach 25th Anniversary '88 -- 112/133
1:32.476 -- AC Cars 427 S/C '66 -- 119/138
1:32.166 -- Lamborghini Countach LP400 '74 -- 116/137
1:31.912 -- Ferrari 365 GTB4 '71 -- 111/131
1:31.748 -- RUF CTR "Yellow Bird" '87 -- 121/142
1:30.629 -- Lamborghini Miura P400 Bertone Prototype CN.0706 '67 -- 117/138
1:29.276 -- Ferrari GTO '84 -- 119/140

SM / abs 1 / grip reduction real / 3 laps

I'd advocate getting rid of the Mitsubishi -- it's uninspiring to drive, one of the worst standards and can't be painted to minimize its ugliness. Unfortunately that would also put a sizeable gap in the times logged so far between the Isuzu and the 512BB: 2.2s at Suzuka and 1.8s at Laguna.

The BTR is kind of a pain in the butt, I had to do an extra two laps because of all the crashing. I have to say, over several thousand virtual miles at Laguna Seca, I had NEVER spun going over the Turn One crest... until today. Pretty sure I left at least another second on the table with the BTR, even on my best lap I was tip-toeing through some corners. It's more vicious than the Yellowbird, in some ways.

 

[snowgt]

So, I finished a set of times for the Classics list, reduced as per @snowgt 's suggestions to 17. However, I did not test the 20 million credit Ferrari yet, as I'd have to do a bit more grinding and I'm not convinced the car is worth it.

Laguna Seca offline TT

Time -- Car -- Speed at Start-Finish / Speed at end of straight (mph)

1:38.620 -- Ferrari Dino 246 GT '71 -- 96/114
1:38.398 -- Lotus Esprit Turbo HC '87 -- 98/117
1:38.234 -- Chevrolet Corvette ZR-1 (C4) '90 -- 105/126
1:37.947 -- Honda NSX '90 -- 100/120
1:36.695 -- Ford RS200 '84 -- 100/117
0:00.000 -- Ferrari 250 GTO CN.3729GT '62 -- 000/000
1:36.205 -- Isuzu 4200R '89 -- 103/123
1:35.849 -- Mitsubishi HSR-II '89 -- 108/127
1:34.409 -- Ferrari 512BB '76 -- 110/130
1:34.310 -- RUF BTR '86 -- 112/134
1:33.086 -- Lamborghini Countach 25th Anniversary '88 -- 112/133
1:32.476 -- AC Cars 427 S/C '66 -- 119/138
1:32.166 -- Lamborghini Countach LP400 '74 -- 116/137
1:31.912 -- Ferrari 365 GTB4 '71 -- 111/131
1:31.748 -- RUF CTR "Yellow Bird" '87 -- 121/142
1:30.629 -- Lamborghini Miura P400 Bertone Prototype CN.0706 '67 -- 117/138
1:29.276 -- Ferrari GTO '84 -- 119/140

SM / abs 1 / grip reduction real / 3 laps

I'd advocate getting rid of the Mitsubishi -- it's uninspiring to drive, one of the worst standards and can't be painted to minimize its ugliness. Unfortunately that would also put a sizeable gap in the times logged so far between the Isuzu and the 512BB: 2.2s at Suzuka and 1.8s at Laguna.

The BTR is kind of a pain in the butt, I had to do an extra two laps because of all the crashing. I have to say, over several thousand virtual miles at Laguna Seca, I had NEVER spun going over the Turn One crest... until today. Pretty sure I left at least another second on the table with the BTR, even on my best lap I was tip-toeing through some corners. It's more vicious than the Yellowbird, in some ways.

Hehe. Yeah, the BTR is really challenging (and definitely more so than the Yellowbird), especially if you're getting in after driving a car that handles very well. I was surprised though that I didn't have to resort to sticking harder tyres up front anymore. It is manageable with the same tyres all-round, but SH in the front might make it easier to drive for less experienced drivers, even though it makes the theoretical lap times drop a little. That's one reason why I'm not too concerned with gaps in these lists with faster cars - people tend to make more mistakes in these cars, so there's a much bigger delta up and down that will smooth it over. As long as the cars are roughly equally distributed over the spread from fastest to slowest, it ought to be fine.

I agree on dropping the Mitsubishi. Maybe @watermelon punch could voice an opinion about the BTR? Wouldn't want to force that car on the list, if some think it to be undriveable. The 250GTO is not a must, in my opinion.

By the way … working on your Premium Sports Coupé-list. Will finish over the weekend.

 

[watermelon punch]

I kind of liked that Mitsubishi in GT5. But I haven't even bought it yet in GT6.

Though I would like to cut this list down to less cars than other lists.

The BTR... eh. Personally I much prefer the Yellow Bird.
At least you know how the Yellow Bird is going to try to kill you.
I'm not as concerned about having them both.

More important to keep all the Lambos, and multiple Ferraris.

Because when we race this list... people are going to really want to be in the Lambos & Ferraris.
It's good to have some cars that are rather bummers on a list, because it makes things more interesting.
But with this list, we also don't want people to show up to race, and be unlikely to get into a Ferrari or Lambo, because that would just be stupid. The whole point of this list is to race the Lambos & Ferraris!!

Looks like tarnheld got those times into the spreadsheet already.
Here's the preliminary order including them all...

1. Ferrari Dino 246 GT '71
2. Lotus Esprit Turbo HC '87
3. Honda NSX '90
4. Ford RS200 '84
5. Chevrolet Corvette ZR-1 (C4) '90
6. Isuzu 4200R '89
7. Ferrari 250 GTO CN.3729GT '62
8. Mitsubishi HSR-II '89
9. Ferrari 512BB '76
10. RUF BTR '86
11. Lamborghini Countach 25th Anniversary '88
12. AC Cars 427 S/C '66
13. Ferrari 365 GTB4 '71
14. Lamborghini Countach LP400 '74
15. RUF CTR "Yellow Bird" '87
16. Lamborghini Miura P400 Bertone Prototype CN.0706 '67
17. Ferrari GTO '84

The Mitsubishi & the 20million Ferrari are the only ones having direct tie conflict.
The BOLD ones are the ones I think are definite must-keeps.

The list could look like this:

1. Ferrari Dino 246 GT '71
2. Lotus Esprit Turbo HC '87
3. Ford RS200 '84
4. Chevrolet Corvette ZR-1 (C4) '90
5. Ferrari 512BB '76
6. Lamborghini Countach 25th Anniversary '88
7. AC Cars 427 S/C '66
8. Ferrari 365 GTB4 '71
9. Lamborghini Countach LP400 '74
10. RUF CTR "Yellow Bird" '87
11. Lamborghini Miura P400 Bertone Prototype CN.0706 '67
12. Ferrari GTO '84

But then I'm not sure where we're going as far as performance gaps.
So I'm not saying this is what I want... it's just that if that worked, I'd be fine with it.
In fact, I'd be fine with 10 cars, and have position #11 + all in the top car.

Originally I'd thought we'd only even get about 6-8 cars & have to double up some anyway.
I'm surprised we're even considering this many cars.

 

[snowgt]

I kind of liked that Mitsubishi in GT5. But I haven't even bought it yet in GT6.

Though I would like to cut this list down to less cars than other lists.

The BTR... eh. Personally I much prefer the Yellow Bird.
At least you know how the Yellow Bird is going to try to kill you.
I'm not as concerned about having them both.

More important to keep all the Lambos, and multiple Ferraris.

Because when we race this list... people are going to really want to be in the Lambos & Ferraris.
It's good to have some cars that are rather bummers on a list, because it makes things more interesting.
But with this list, we also don't want people to show up to race, and be unlikely to get into a Ferrari or Lambo, because that would just be stupid. The whole point of this list is to race the Lambos & Ferraris!!

Looks like tarnheld got those times into the spreadsheet already.
Here's the preliminary order including them all...

1. Ferrari Dino 246 GT '71
2. Lotus Esprit Turbo HC '87
3. Honda NSX '90
4. Ford RS200 '84
5. Chevrolet Corvette ZR-1 (C4) '90
6. Isuzu 4200R '89
7. Ferrari 250 GTO CN.3729GT '62
8. Mitsubishi HSR-II '89
9. Ferrari 512BB '76
10. RUF BTR '86
11. Lamborghini Countach 25th Anniversary '88
12. AC Cars 427 S/C '66
13. Ferrari 365 GTB4 '71
14. Lamborghini Countach LP400 '74
15. RUF CTR "Yellow Bird" '87
16. Lamborghini Miura P400 Bertone Prototype CN.0706 '67
17. Ferrari GTO '84

The Mitsubishi & the 20million Ferrari are the only ones having direct tie conflict.
The BOLD ones are the ones I think are definite must-keeps.

The list could look like this:

1. Ferrari Dino 246 GT '71
2. Lotus Esprit Turbo HC '87
3. Ford RS200 '84
4. Chevrolet Corvette ZR-1 (C4) '90
5. Ferrari 512BB '76
6. Lamborghini Countach 25th Anniversary '88
7. AC Cars 427 S/C '66
8. Ferrari 365 GTB4 '71
9. Lamborghini Countach LP400 '74
10. RUF CTR "Yellow Bird" '87
11. Lamborghini Miura P400 Bertone Prototype CN.0706 '67
12. Ferrari GTO '84

But then I'm not sure where we're going as far as performance gaps.
So I'm not saying this is what I want... it's just that if that worked, I'd be fine with it.
In fact, I'd be fine with 10 cars, and have position #11 + all in the top car.

Originally I'd thought we'd only even get about 6-8 cars & have to double up some anyway.
I'm surprised we're even considering this many cars.

I agree that the list could be cut down, but we'll need at least one of the ones you cut out in the middle. Otherwise there's an almost 5s gap between the RS200 and the Ferrari 512BB. I'd therefore suggest leaving the Isuzu in, as it's right in the middle of the two.

 

[tarnheld]

Here is the cut list including the 4200R and with the FT rank:

0.50 Ferrari Dino 246 GT '71
1.00 Lotus Esprit Turbo HC '87
2.00 Ford RS200 '84
2.75 Chevrolet Corvette ZR-1 (C4) '90
3.75 Isuzu 4200R '89
5.20 Ferrari 512BB '76
6.77 Lamborghini Countach 25th Anniversary '88
6.85 AC Cars 427 S/C '66
7.88 Ferrari 365 GTB4 '71
8.80 Lamborghini Countach LP400 '74
10.00 RUF CTR "Yellow Bird" '87
10.75 Lamborghini Miura P400 Bertone Prototype CN.0706 '67
11.75 Ferrari GTO '84

The ordering of the slower cars up to the 4200R is not settled yet, the Corvette is only after the Ford because of greater top speed, but with more TT times i expect a swap of the two. The ordering of the other cars is pretty settled, except the 427 and the Countach '88.

 

[watermelon punch]

1. 1:34.409 -- Ferrari 512BB '76 -- 110/130
2. 1:33.086 -- Lamborghini Countach 25th Anniversary '88 -- 112/133
3. 1:32.476 -- AC Cars 427 S/C '66 -- 119/138
4. 1:32.166 -- Lamborghini Countach LP400 '74 -- 116/137
5. 1:31.912 -- Ferrari 365 GTB4 '71 -- 111/131
   
6. 1:31.748 -- RUF CTR "Yellow Bird" '87 -- 121/142
7. 1:31.748 -- RUF CTR "Yellow Bird" '87 -- 121/142
   
8. 1:30.629 -- Lamborghini Miura P400 Bertone Prototype CN.0706 '67 -- 117/138
9. 1:30.629 -- Lamborghini Miura P400 Bertone Prototype CN.0706 '67 -- 117/138
   
10. 1:29.276 -- Ferrari GTO '84 -- 119/140

 

[tarnheld]

But the Dino... and the RS200... or do you have other plans for it?

 

[watermelon punch]

Almost everyone uses #2-#8 the most, and #3-6 even more, even when there are 10-12+ drivers in a race this is true. And there's usually 8-10.

Even the parity scheme, which shifts the most used cars down in the list & spreads the usage, it winds up that most people are assigned 6-10.

I don't know I'm just going to be very disappointed if all the most popular cars are 10+ on the list.
It completely negates the whole purpose of the list to have all the cars that the list is made for, to be 10+.

For example... here are the current lists, with the cars that "inspired" the lists in BOLD.
(ie: the lists were made around wanting to race these cars)

1. Honda Civic 1500 3door CX '79
2. Nissan Skyline 2000GT-B (S54B) '67
3. Alfa Romeo Spider 1600 Duetto '66
4. Mini Marcos GT '70
5. Isuzu Bellett 1600 GT-R '69
6. Isuzu 117 Coupé '68
7. Alfa Romeo Giulia Sprint Speciale '63
8. Honda 1300 Coupe 9 S '70
9. Lotus Europa S.2 '68
10. Toyota Celica 1600GT (TA22) '70
11. BMW 507 '57
12. Mazda Cosmo Sport (L10A) '67
13. Mitsubishi Lancer 1600 GSR '74
14. Toyota Sprinter Trueno GT-Apex (AE86) '83
15. Nissan Fairlady 2000 (SR311) '68

1. Nissan PAO '89
2. Volvo 240 GLT Estate '88
3. Ford Ka '01
4. Suzuki WAGON R RR '98
5. Nissan SKYLINE Sport Coupe (BLRA-3) '62
6. Nissan Be-1 '87
7. Daihatsu MOVE SR-XX 4WD '97
8. Fiat 500 1.2 8V Lounge SS '08
9. Mini Cooper 1.3i '98
10. Mazda Autozam AZ-1 '92
11. Toyota Yaris F (J) '99
12. Daihatsu Copen Active Top '02
13. Honda S800 '66
14. Triumph Spitfire 1500 '74
15. Nissan CUBE EX (FF/CVT) '02

1. Jaguar XK Coupe Luxury '07
2. Chrysler 300C '05
3. Infiniti G35 Coupe '06
4. Audi S4 '03
5. BMW 135i Coupe '07
6. Jaguar S-Type R '02
7. Mercedes-Benz C 63 AMG '08
8. Mercedes-Benz SL 55 AMG (R230) '02
9. Jaguar XFR '10
10. BMW Z8 '01
11. Maserati GranTurismo S '08
12. BMW M3 Coupe '07
13. Aston Martin Vanquish '04
14. Aston Martin DB9 Coupe '06
15. Lexus IS F '07

1. Mercedes-Benz 300 SL Coupé '54
2. Renault R5 Turbo '80
3. Nissan Skyline Hard Top 2000 Turbo RS (R30) '83
4. Alpine A110 1600S '73
5. Lotus Europa Special '72
6. Jaguar E-Type Coupe '61
7. Lancia Stratos '73
8. Nissan Fairlady Z 300ZX (Z31) '83
9. Pontiac Firebird Trans Am '78
10. Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z Concept '88
11. DMC DeLorean S2 '04
12. Dome Zero '78
13. Peugeot 205 Turbo 16 '85
14. Toyota Sprinter Trueno GT-Apex (AE86 Shuichi Shigeno Version) '00

1. Chrysler PT Cruiser '00
2. Eagle Talon Esi '97
3. Alfa Romeo 147 TI 2.0 TWIN SPARK '06
4. Infiniti G20 '90
5. Volkswagen Golf IV GTI '01
6. Lexus IS 200 '98
7. Chevrolet SSR '03
8. Peugeot 307 XSi '04
9. BMW 120i '04
10. Abarth Grande Punto '09
11. Toyota CELICA SS-II (ST202) '97
12. Pontiac Vibe GT '03
13. Mini COOPER S '07
14. Toyota Tacoma X-Runner '04
15. Seat Ibiza Cupra '04

1. Suzuki SWIFT Sport '05
2. Abarth 500 '09
3. Alfa Romeo MiTo 1.4 T Sport '09
4. Citroen C4 Coupe 2.0VTS '05
5. BMW 120d '04
6. Ford Focus ST170 '03
7. Volvo C30 R-Design '09
8. Mini Cooper S '11
9. Honda CIVIC TYPE R (EK) '97
10. Peugeot 207 GTi '07
11. Volkswagen New Beetle RSi '00
12. Renaultsport Clio Renault Sport 2.0 16V '02
13. Volkswagen Golf V GTI '05
14. Mazda Kusabi Concept '03

1. Honda Accord Coupe '88
2. Honda Civic 1500 3door 25i '83
3. Isuzu Piazza XE '81
4. Nissan Exa Canopy L.A. Version Type S '88
5. Honda Ballade Sports CR-X 1.5i '83
6. Honda City Turbo II '83
7. Nissan Silvia Q's (S13) '88
8. Volkswagen Golf I GTI '76
9. Alpine A310 1600VE '73
10. Nissan Fairlady Z 280Z-L 2seater (S130) '78
11. Mitsubishi Lancer EX 1800GSR IC Turbo '83
12. Toyota Corolla Levin GT-Apex (AE86) '83
13. Nissan Skyline Hard Top 2000 GT-R (KPGC10) '70
14. Toyota Celica 2000GT-Four (ST165) '86
15. Ford Taurus SHO '98
16. Honda Prelude Type S '98

Even the 90s list I think is kind of set up this way.. I think.. with the most "choice" cars in the middle.

1. Toyota CELICA GT-FOUR (ST205) '98
2. Nissan Silvia K's Aero (S14) '96
3. Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution II GSR '94
4. Nissan Fairlady Z 300ZX Version S TwinTurbo 2seater (Z32) '98
5. Audi S4 '98
6. Acura NSX '91
7. Mitsubishi GTO Twin Turbo MR '98
8. Chevrolet Camaro Z28 Coupe '97
9. TVR V8S '91
10. Mazda éfini RX-7 Type R (FD) '91
11. Toyota SUPRA RZ '97
12. Subaru IMPREZA Sport Wagon WRX STi Version VI '99
13. Nissan SKYLINE GT-R V・spec II (R32) '94
14. Chevrolet Corvette GRAND SPORT (C4) '96
15. Lotus Elise Sport 190 '98

But the Dino... and the RS200... or do you have other plans for it?

And yeah, maybe we can make another list for the RS200 & some of those others...
And not dial out the Mitsubishi for example.
(I don't know, it's a weird car, I kind of like it.)

 

[tarnheld]

Yeah, i see the problem -- Miura being missed most of the time...

I'd rather duplicate the 365, not the Yellowbird, because it's more easy to drive for most:

1. Ferrari 512BB '76
2. Lamborghini Countach 25th Anniversary '88
3. AC Cars 427 S/C '66
4. Ferrari 365 GTB4 '71
5. Ferrari 365 GTB4 '71
6. Lamborghini Countach LP400 '74
7. RUF CTR "Yellow Bird" '87
8. Lamborghini Miura P400 Bertone Prototype CN.0706 '67
9. Lamborghini Miura P400 Bertone Prototype CN.0706 '67
10. Ferrari GTO '84

It's still a list of challenging cars, think of Legends Part II.
The left-out cars will find a place in a different list, i'm sure.

 

[snowgt]

Almost everyone uses #2-#8 the most, and #3-6 even more, even when there are 10-12+ drivers in a race this is true. And there's usually 8-10.

Even the parity scheme, which shifts the most used cars down in the list & spreads the usage, it winds up that most people are assigned 6-10.

I don't know I'm just going to be very disappointed if all the most popular cars are 10+ on the list.
It completely negates the whole purpose of the list to have all the cars that the list is made for, to be 10+.

Well, if you want to race one of the fastest cars of its class, you will always have some kind of problem to find a list that will have it somewhere in the middle. The natural tendency will always be that the faster cars are also very desirable, which is why I proposed the "shift", so the fast part of the lists are used more often.

You are aware that this list as proposed has very little spread…? (7s on Suzuka for me, 5s on Laguna Seca for Amarynceos)

 

[watermelon punch]

Yeah I see the problem... I was hoping someone could find a way to work around it & work it out.
I'm just throwing stuff out there to see if something can be fiddled with or if anyone has better ideas.

1. 1.00 Lotus Esprit Turbo HC '87
2. 2.75 Chevrolet Corvette ZR-1 (C4) '90
3. 5.20 Ferrari 512BB '76
4. 6.77 Lamborghini Countach 25th Anniversary '88
5. 6.85 AC Cars 427 S/C '66
6. 7.88 Ferrari 365 GTB4 '71
7. 8.80 Lamborghini Countach LP400 '74
8. 10.00 RUF CTR "Yellow Bird" '87
9. 10.75 Lamborghini Miura P400 Bertone Prototype CN.0706 '67
10. 11.75 Ferrari GTO '84

 

[snowgt]

Premium Sports Coupé testing. Suzuka 2014, Online, SM tyres.

Time / Speed at end of straight / SSRX / Car

2:22,672 225 324 Nissan Skyline Coupe 370GT Type SP '07
2:21,047 228 314 Hyundai Genesis Coupe 3.8 Track '13
2:19,984 228 324 Nissan Fairlady Z (Z34) '08
2:19,856 232 327 SRT Challenger SRT8 '08
2:19,765 223 312 Lotus Evora '09
2:19,712 226 316 Nissan Skyline GT-R V-Spec II Nür (R34) '02
2:18,682 231 332 BMW Z4 M Coupe '08
2:18,239 227 284L Mazda RX-7 Spirit R Type A (FD) '02
2:17,351 247 359 Cadillac CTS-V Coupe '11
2:17,312 237 341 BMW M3 Coupé '07
2:16,980 240 330 Ford Mustang Boss 302 '13
2:16,716 248 360 Jaguar XKR Coupe '10
2:16,226 237 305L Lotus Esprit V8 '02
2:15,853 238 316 Chevrolet Camaro SS '10
2:15,334 233 322 Honda NSX Type R '02
2:15,257 248 366 Jaguar XKR-S '11
2:15,156 244 309L TVR Tamora '02
2:14,980 245 325L Alfa Romeo 8C Competizione '08
2:14,899 245 308L TVR Tuscan Speed 6 '00
2:14,591 247 357 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 (C5) '04
2:13,332 250 306L Aston Martin V12 Vantage '10
2:13,193 247 341 Ferrari California '08
2:13,093 248 344 BMW M4 Coupé
2:12,950 246 343 SRT Viper GTS '02
2:12,788 263 366 Ford Shelby GT500 '13
2:12,601 243 321L Audi R8 4.2 FSI R tronic '07
2:12,044 253 384 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray (C7) '14
2:11,276 253 343 SRT Viper SRT10 Coupe '06
2:11,001 254 331L Nissan GT-R '07
2:10,546 265 358L Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren '09
2:10,532 257 306L Ferrari F430 '06
2:10,280 256 331L Nissan GT-R SpecV '09
2:10,091 262 377 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 (C6) '06
2:09,997 257 328L Audi R8 5.2 FSI quattro '09
2:09,996 267 361L Ferrari 599 '06

None of them have limiter problems.

Some suggestions:
- As there have been comments that the Ferrari California should be somewhere in the list where it's used a lot, I would extend the list on the fast side. I've already started testing more cars (as can be seen above) and there's even more that would fit the profile.

- What do you guys think about making this a front-engined list only? The mid-engined cars usually have different characteristics (less power, more corner speed) which makes it difficult to find the appropriate order in such a list. We could instead make a mid-engined only list, so those cars have a place as well.

This is what part of the list could look like (should be very evenly spread over 10s at Suzuka)...

Nissan Fairlady Z (Z34) '08
BMW Z4 M Coupe '08
Cadillac CTS-V Coupe '11
Jaguar XKR Coupe '10
Chevrolet Camaro SS '10
Alfa Romeo 8C Competizione '08
Aston Martin V12 Vantage '10
Ferrari California '08
BMW M4 Coupé
SRT Viper GTS '02
Chevrolet Corvette Stingray (C7) '14
Nissan GT-R '07
Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren '09
Ferrari 599 '06

Additional cars at the fast end I will test…

Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG '10
SRT Viper GTS '13
Nissan GT-R Nismo '14
Alfa Romeo TZ3 Stradale '11
Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 (C6) '09
Aston Martin One-77 '11

 

[tarnheld]

Here is the Premium Sports Coupe List as of now:

1.03 Nissan Fairlady Z (Z34) '08
1.25 Nissan SKYLINE GT-R V∙spec II Nür (R34) '02
1.71 Lotus Evora '09
2.51 BMW Z4 M Coupé '08
4.48 Ford Mustang Boss 302 '13
5.18 Jaguar XKR Coupe '10
6.08 Lotus Esprit V8 '02
7.55 Honda NSX Type R '02
7.81 Alfa Romeo 8C Competizione '08
8.17 TVR Tuscan Speed 6 '00
10.41 Aston Martin V12 Vantage '10
10.45 SRT Viper GTS '02
11.66 Ferrari California '08
12.88 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray (C7) '14
14.33 Nissan GT-R '07
14.50 Ferrari F430 '06

The SSRX top speeds are very misleading here, for example the Jaguar is second fastest by SSRX top speed, but in the slower part of the final list. So i took the Suzuka top speeds from @snowgt as reference top speeds. If @amarynceos finishes the testing at Fuji, we can add the top speeds from there, too.

Right now we need more times for the Tuscan, the 8C, the Skyline and the Evora.

 

[amarynceos]

I like the idea of limiting it to FRs. Even though I've been reluctant to cut the Evora or Esprit or NSX, it would be easier to cut one if we cut them all.

And extending the list is on the fast side is a good thing, as there are so many options. Down at the slow end the choices are much more limited.

I've still got more cars to run there, but this is my data from Fuji so far:

Fuji Speedway F offline TT

Time -- car -- speed at S/F / end of straight (mph)

1:46.755 -- Ferrari F430 '06 = 158/175

1:48.439 -- Chevrolet Corvette Stingray (C7) '14 = 155/173
1:48.605 -- Ferrari California '08 = 151/168

1:49.056 -- SRT Viper GTS '02 = 150/168
1:49.518 -- Aston Martin V12 Vantage '10 = 154/171

1:50.421 -- TVR Tuscan Speed 6 '00 = 151/167
1:50.532 -- Honda NSX Type R '02 = 141/157
1:50.597 -- Alfa Romeo 8C Competizione '08 = 150/166
1:50.786 -- TVR Tamora '02 = 148/165
1:50.880 -- Lotus Esprit V8 '02 = 144/161
1:50.935 -- Chevrolet Camaro SS '10 = 144/159

1:51.035 -- Jaguar XKR Coupe '10 = 152/169

1:52.067 -- Ford Mustang Boss 302 '13 = 146/158

1:53.401 -- BMW Z4 M Coupé '08 = 140/157
1:53.656 -- Lotus Evora '09 = 134/151
1:53.883 -- Nissan SKYLINE GT-R V∙spec II Nür (R34) '02 = 137/152

1:55.073 -- Nissan Fairlady Z (Z34) '08 = 137/154

1:56.493 -- Hyundai Genesis Coupe 3.8 Track '13 = 137/152

 

[watermelon punch]

I went shopping today.
So I'll start testing the trouble spots as well. 👍

 

[Patrick8308]

Right now we need more times for the Tuscan, the 8C, the Skyline and the Evora.

I will test these 4 on GVER and Laguna Seca today.👍

Hehe. Yeah, the BTR is really challenging (and definitely more so than the Yellowbird), especially if you're getting in after driving a car that handles very well. I was surprised though that I didn't have to resort to sticking harder tyres up front anymore. It is manageable with the same tyres all-round, but SH in the front might make it easier to drive for less experienced drivers, even though it makes the theoretical lap times drop a little. That's one reason why I'm not too concerned with gaps in these lists with faster cars - people tend to make more mistakes in these cars, so there's a much bigger delta up and down that will smooth it over. As long as the cars are roughly equally distributed over the spread from fastest to slowest, it ought to be fine.

I agree on dropping the Mitsubishi. Maybe @watermelon punch could voice an opinion about the BTR? Wouldn't want to force that car on the list, if some think it to be undriveable.

I tested the BTR for the "Schwarzwald League" too.
(Actually I had chosen it because the Yellowbird was planned for Classics and that time I was thinking that cars should not be on multiple lists. Now that we have defined that this is not strictly prohibited the BTR maybe could be changed with the Yellowbird.)
The first few turns have been aweful, that car breaks out nearly every corner if you don't watch out enough with the throttle.
So I decided to put SH on front directly and it got way better, it's still very "oversteery" but controlable now.👍
So in my opinion, generally the BTR may appear in a list but should only be used with SH/SM tyre settings.

 

[watermelon punch]

Yeah great minds think alike @Patrick8308
I was going to try the BTR with lesser tires on the front myself. 💡

And yeah... some cars, I think it should be recommended by default. And any driver needing them should test the cars with them.

Maybe LB or Snow can deal with most of these more troublesome cars, but particularly I've considered that unsuspecting newcomers should be tipped to use the lesser tires on front, and anyone clearly having trouble with the misbehaving cars should be strongly advised to do so.
I personally think it should be considered mandatory after someone has a spectacular wreck or receives penalties in a known suspect car.