Makeshift Shuffle Club - Time Trials & Testing for club car lists - all welcomeOpen

[watermelon punch]

Yep, and @snowgt proposed to revamp the Luxury list to include only 4-doors.

Actually I propose leaving the Luxury list alone if for only no other reason that we've got a lot of irons in the fire as it is.

No door restrictions in my list. Never mentioned anything about doors at all yet.

👍 Understood.

I just got confused. I've had a lot of my plate the past few days.
And I wanted to be sure not to miss some vital detail & look very clueless later.

I was going to say "2 doors or more", but then I thought of the Schwimmwagen (no doors).

A list with the Schwimmwagen. 💡

 

[amarynceos]

Okay, I think I have an almost final list for my Coupes.

The working title is now Performance Coupes.

1. Maserati Gran Turismo S '08
2. Cadillac CTS-V Coupé '11
3. Jaguar XKR Coupe '10
4. Chevrolet Camaro SS '10
5. Alfa Romeo 8C Competizione '08
6. TVR Tuscan Speed 6 '00
7. Aston Martin V12 Vantage '10
8. Ferrari California '08
9. Chevrolet Corvette Stingray (C7) '14
10. Nissan GT-R '07
11. Ferrari 599 '06
12. Mercedez-Benz SLS AMG '10
13. SRT Viper GTS '13
14. Aston Martin One-77 '11

The TZ3 cannot be painted, numbered, or have its wheels changed, so I axed it. Therefore I kept the 8C, because I wanted an Alfa on there. The M4 was axed because there was very, very little performance difference between it and the California.

Times

At Nurburgring GP/F

2:16.011 -- Cadillac CTS-V Coupé '11 = 108/142

2:15.859 -- Maserati Gran Turismo S '08 = 103/138

2:14.506 -- Jaguar XKR Coupe '10 = 109/144

2:13.023 -- Chevrolet Camaro SS '10 = 106/139

2:12.401 -- Alfa Romeo 8C Competizione '08 = 108/143

2:11.930 -- TVR Tuscan Speed 6 '00 = 109/142

2:10.782 -- Aston Martin V12 Vantage '10 = 112/147
2:10.128 -- Ferrari California '08 = 110/144

2:09.417 -- Chevrolet Corvette Stingray (C7) '14 = 112/149

2:08.601 -- Nissan GT-R '07 = 113/149

2:08.261 -- Ferrari 599 '06 = 119/156

2:06.677 -- Mercedez-Benz SLS AMG '10 = 119/156

2:05.763 -- SRT Viper GTS '13 = 123/160
2:05.431 -- Aston Martin One-77 '11 = 125/165

At Fuji Speedway F

1:53.210 -- Maserati Gran Turismo S '08 = 143/160

1:52.551 -- Cadillac CTS-V Coupé '11 = 140/157

1:51.035 -- Jaguar XKR Coupe '10 = 152/169

1:50.935 -- Chevrolet Camaro SS '10 = 144/159
1:50.597 -- Alfa Romeo 8C Competizione '08 = 150/166
1:50.421 -- TVR Tuscan Speed 6 '00 = 151/167

1:49.518 -- Aston Martin V12 Vantage '10 = 154/171

1:48.605 -- Ferrari California '08 = 151/168
1:48.439 -- Chevrolet Corvette Stingray (C7) '14 = 155/173

1:47.151 -- Nissan GT-R '07 = 154/172

1:46.780 -- Ferrari 599 '06 = 167/183

1:45.105 -- Mercedez-Benz SLS AMG '10 = 163/181

1:44.312 -- SRT Viper GTS '13 = 169/187

1:43.792 -- Aston Martin One-77 '11 = 178/196


Thank you, @snowgt for your testing and suggestions.

Thoughts, reactions, further suggestions? This isn't final, but we're getting there!

 

[watermelon punch]

Okay, I think I have an almost final list for my Coupes.

The working title is now Performance Coupes.

@tarnheld
have you further updated the spreadsheet of times? Because I haven't touched that spreadsheet in a couple of days... been too busy. But it looks like you've beat me to it each time I have looked to add times. 👍
I'm going to try and verify or enter these now after I finish preparing the ovals results.

I'm also going to start testing "conflicts" on Deep Forest & Rome Reverse. Probably tomorrow.


EDIT:
Also... I have no further thoughts or suggestions.
Just the comment that when I went shopping I noticed all these cars look pretty spiffy and I'm looking forward to choosing paints for them.

 

[LongbowX]

@amarynceos Great list! I look forward to driving it in some form.

I have one niggling concern though, and that the GT-R will have a massive performance advantage off the line compared to everyone else.

 

[tarnheld]

@tarnheld
have you further updated the spreadsheet of times?

I collected all times, but didn't update the car list, because it wasn't clear which cars should be included. I will add @amarynceos times and cars later. Stay tuned. 👍

 

[snowgt]

@amarynceos Great list! I look forward to driving it in some form.

I have one niggling concern though, and that the GT-R will have a massive performance advantage off the line compared to everyone else.

It might have a bit of an advantage, but the other cars around it are no slouches either. Whoever gets in it, will have a bit of a bonus at the start, but that evaporates rather quickly, I think.

Actually, I think the differences off the line are surprisingly big in the slower classes, where gearing plays a big part in how fast you get away.

 

[snowgt]

The TZ3 cannot be painted, numbered, or have its wheels changed, so I axed it. Therefore I kept the 8C, because I wanted an Alfa on there. The M4 was axed because there was very, very little performance difference between it and the California.

Ouch, hate to see the TZ3 go, but I guess that's one of those instances where I sort of understand why. You're absolutely right about the M4, or rather the fact that the midfield was a bit crowded performance-wise with the Vantage, California, M4 & Viper all covered by a few tenths, but I didn't want to suggest to omit a car that maybe was regarded as untouchable. In that sense, adding the new Viper was a nice touch to weed out the midfield. 👍

I think the M4 will find a home on Patrick's list.

 

[snowgt]

Actually I propose leaving the Luxury list alone if for only no other reason that we've got a lot of irons in the fire as it is.

Yeah, was just an idea for a future project to give some of the underused 4-doors like the Holden and the SRT Charger a home and make it more theme-y. It would be weeks, if not months until I could even think of testing out how those could work. Still got 2 or 3 other lists to test and I'm afraid I always go slightly overboard with how many I just have to include.

A list with the Schwimmwagen. 💡

All I can say is "no taboos".

 

[watermelon punch]

@amarynceos Great list! I look forward to driving it in some form.

I have one niggling concern though, and that the GT-R will have a massive performance advantage off the line compared to everyone else.

I would be more concerned about this if it was car #1 to #3... or even 1-5.
It looks like it'll at least be at #8-10.

 

[tarnheld]

Okay, I think I have an almost final list for my Coupes.

The working title is now Performance Coupes.

1. Maserati Gran Turismo S '08
2. Cadillac CTS-V Coupé '11
3. Jaguar XKR Coupe '10
4. Chevrolet Camaro SS '10
5. Alfa Romeo 8C Competizione '08
6. TVR Tuscan Speed 6 '00
7. Aston Martin V12 Vantage '10
8. Ferrari California '08
9. Chevrolet Corvette Stingray (C7) '14
10. Nissan GT-R '07
11. Ferrari 599 '06
12. Mercedez-Benz SLS AMG '10
13. SRT Viper GTS '13
14. Aston Martin One-77 '11

I reworked the TT data for the new list, added the times of @amarynceos, @snowgt and a few others. The ordering is good as it is, the only problem case is the 599 vs. the GT-R. Seems not everybody can access the speed in the 599, the GT-R seems the easier car to handle , even if good drivers can get better times in the 599. So we need more testing of these two cars, maybe they need to be swapped in the final list.

I left out the top speeds as they give a completely different order when taken separately, and swamp the subtleties of the TT times. Seems we should use them for tie splitting, but adding them to the comparison as is seems problematic.

Other than that the car list is nicely separated with a little bit more spreading at the faster side. 👍 Can't wait to drive them!

 

[Patrick8308]

I will test the 599 and GT-R at GVER and Laguna Seca when I am home.

 

[watermelon punch]

If you tried to access the club time trials since the update, it may have been inaccessible.
This is because the update deleted all saved club/community event settings.
I have gone into each event (open & scheduled) and re-entered the event settings.

So everything's in working order again. 👍

 

[snowgt]

I reworked the TT data for the new list, added the times of @amarynceos, @snowgt and a few others. The ordering is good as it is, the only problem case is the 599 vs. the GT-R. Seems not everybody can access the speed in the 599, the GT-R seems the easier car to handle , even if good drivers can get better times in the 599. So we need more testing of these two cars, maybe they need to be swapped in the final list.

I left out the top speeds as they give a completely different order when taken separately, and swamp the subtleties of the TT times. Seems we should use them for tie splitting, but adding them to the comparison as is seems problematic.

Other than that the car list is nicely separated with a little bit more spreading at the faster side. 👍 Can't wait to drive them!

For me there was a quite clear gap between the 599 and the GT-R of about a full second, but this was at Suzuka, which is on the fast side. The tendency will definitely be that with enough straights the 599 will be clearly ahead, on a twisty track the GT-R might have a chance.

 

[tarnheld]

For me there was a quite clear gap between the 599 and the GT-R of about a full second, but this was at Suzuka, which is on the fast side. The tendency will definitely be that with enough straights the 599 will be clearly ahead, on a twisty track the GT-R might have a chance.

Yeah, but for @amarynceos the difference was not that big, and there was a discussion about being spot on with (early) braking and corner speed with these cars, else (too fast into corner) understeering occurs. I just wanted to make sure we have the tendency right for all drivers.

 

[Patrick8308]

Premium Sports Coupes - Testing II

online, grip real, SM, ABS 1, AT, DS3, 4 laps

GVER

1:06,951 -- GT-R '07
1:06,840 -- 599 '06

Laguna Seca

1:33,028 -- GT-R '07
1:32,750 -- 599 '06

The 599 has better acceleration and top speed but this car doesn't drive nice, so much understeer just as @amarynceos described it very well before. Besides that the braking ways are loooooooong and in online race you might be overtaken easily on the brakes.

The GT-R is slower but you can choose a faster line as it's handling is so stable. This car is great and in online race probably the car might perform better then the cars higher in the list just like it was explained bfore too.

 

[amarynceos]

A list with the Schwimmwagen. 💡

If I can find my old testing notebook from last year, I was working on a 'Turtle Power' list with some of the slowest cars in the game.

Regarding the GT-R (and 599):

At Fuji, I had a clear 1.4 second gap between the two; the 599 is definitely faster on tracks with open straights and sweeping corners. At tighter technical tracks, the 599's tendency to gripe when not treated properly cuts a lot of its top speed advantage, but I still had a .4 second gap at the Nurburgring GP/F, and quite frankly I did not extract as much speed out of it as I could have with more practice. I don't think there's an issue with the two, the 599 is clearly the faster.

If there's any issue so far, it's how the GT-R swaps position with both the California and the Stingray. Edit: Nevermind, I had a list misordered, this isn't the case.

In the end, I think we all know that just because you have car n, doesn't mean it's always going to be faster than car n-1 at every given track.

 

[LongbowX]

I'm not so concerned with it's overall performance, more just the initial jump it might get versus the other cars on the grid (and may extend that lead if there's an incident first corner). That really only becomes a concern in room with more than 10 people. So it isn't really a big issue. Of course, if we do wet races, it's performance would vastly outperform everything else as well.

 

[amarynceos]

Yeah, it would have a supreme advantage in the wet... the same is true of the Audi in the Luxury list, for example. I distinctly remember drawing it at a race at Apricot, grumbling mildly, and then proceeding to trounce the field as the rain came down.

I'd still prefer to keep it, despite its launch performance and wet advantage. It's really easy to push hard and extract speed out of, so I think of it as a nice thing for somebody who ended up 10th or so to draw for the next round.

 

[tarnheld]

Thanks to all for the GT-R/599 input. No swap needed here!

To be honest i didn't trust the consensus in ordering for the Performance Coupes. No problem cases at all, so i just want to make sure it's not 'car list tester bias' at play, as you all know the times of the others. But this list is really nicely balanced and spread, the only little problem case i see now is the Maserati vs. the Cadillac. They are close and the Cadillac has higher top speed, and there are 'only' 5 comparisons done.

 

[snowgt]

Thanks to all for the GT-R/599 input. No swap needed here!

To be honest i didn't trust the consensus in ordering for the Performance Coupes. No problem cases at all, so i just want to make sure it's not 'car list tester bias' at play, as you all know the times of the others. But this list is really nicely balanced and spread, the only little problem case i see now is the Maserati vs. the Cadillac. They are close and the Cadillac has higher top speed, and there are 'only' 5 comparisons done.

I think it's the right order with the Maserati at #1. The Maserati's chassis is a little better, but the Cadillac is much faster down the straight. The Maserati unfortunately has a very long 3rd gear compared to 2nd, so it suffers a little accelerating out of corners. I suspect that will keep it behind the Cadillac on most slower tracks as well. I was actually surprised to see it behind on GP/F in amarynceos's testing, but maybe that track favourably coincides with the available rev-band in the Maserati.

 

[snowgt]

I just realised I forgot to test the Lexus LFA for the Premium Sports list.

Must be because I always think of it compared with mid-engined cars, and yet...it's an FR-layout.

 

[tarnheld]

Just a quick overview what's cooking in the car list spreadsheets:

• Performance Coupes, the list formerly known as Premium Sports Coupes. Finishing touches...
• Classics, car axing in progress...
• Historic, IMHO a list @watermelon punch made to cram all cars that were left behind from the revamps and spice it up with some 60's/70's/80's cars...
• Schwarzwald League, list reshaping in progress...

And let's not forget the thread ideas, it's moving so fast... 👍

• Pre-Millenium Sports
• Rallye Classics
• VGTs
• 4-door Luxury revamp
• that list with the Schwimmwagen... Zero-Doors?

Hope i didn't forget anyone... Just wanted to collect all stuff in a single post... it's easy to lose track.

 

[snowgt]

Just a quick overview what's cooking in the car list spreadsheets:

• Performance Coupes, the list formerly known as Premium Sports Coupes. Finishing touches...
• Classics, car axing in progress...
• Historic, IMHO a list @watermelon punch made to cram all cars that were left behind from the revamps and spice it up with some 60's/70's/80's cars...
• Schwarzwald League, list reshaping in progress...

And let's not forget the thread ideas, it's moving so fast... 👍

• Pre-Millenium Sports
• Rallye Classics
• VGTs
• 4-door Luxury revamp
• that list with the Schwimmwagen... Zero-Doors?

Hope i didn't forget anyone... Just wanted to collect all stuff in a single post... it's easy to lose track.

Good checklist for my testing. 👍

Classics ... done!
Performance Coupés ... done!
Schwarzwald ... currently testing.

Next up...
Historic
Pre-Millennium Sports

 

[snowgt]

• Historic, IMHO a list @watermelon punch made to cram all cars that were left behind from the revamps and spice it up with some 60's/70's/80's cars...

Regarding the Historic list, this should go fast once I'm done with the Schwarzwald. As far as I recall, I tested a number of these already, so it's just a matter of adding a few here and there. I will also test all US Muscle Cars for top speed, just in case there's one where the limiter is not a problem.

 

[tarnheld]

As far as I recall, I tested a number of these already

Yeah, there are already several times from you at Motegi East, you only need to do

Alfa Romeo Giulia Sprint GTA 1600 '65
Honda CR-X del Sol SiR '92
Mazda MX-5 (NA) '89
Nissan Fairlady 240ZG (HS30) '71
Nissan Skyline 2000GT-R (KPGC110) '73
Toyota 2000GT '67
Honda Prelude Si VTEC '91

to complete the list. 👍

 

[snowgt]

Yeah, there are already several times from you at Motegi East, you only need to do

Alfa Romeo Giulia Sprint GTA 1600 '65
Honda CR-X del Sol SiR '92
Mazda MX-5 (NA) '89
Nissan Fairlady 240ZG (HS30) '71
Nissan Skyline 2000GT-R (KPGC110) '73
Toyota 2000GT '67
Honda Prelude Si VTEC '91

to complete the list. 👍

It wouldn't be me, if I hadn't already found some extra cars that might fit in.

By the way, is there any reason we're using the A110 '73, which is a standard model, instead of the '72? Same question applies to the Miata MX-5 '89, where there is a Eunos Roadster '89, which is a premium (although there are very minor performance differences in the two Miata models). I was just wondering.

 

[tarnheld]

It wouldn't be me, if I hadn't already found some extra cars that might fit in.

👍

By the way, is there any reason we're using the A110 '73, which is a standard model, instead of the '72? Same question applies to the Miata MX-5 '89, where there is a Eunos Roadster '89, which is a premium (although there are very minor performance differences in the two Miata models). I was just wondering.

Don't know about the A110, could be some GT5 leftover, as the premium one was only introduced in GT6. I would replace it too. But i think the MX-5 is preferred because of the hidden stripes when you repaint it.

 

[watermelon punch]

Yeah it's a painting issue.

And yeah, in both cases they are better performers so it's not like we could just switch them out.

And we have enough irons in the fire without going back & rehashing testing for lists that are working well.

 

[snowgt]

Schwarzwald testing. As usual, Suzuka 2014 online, SM tyres. I have also included some cars that are already on other lists, just because they fit the profile and they need not necessarily be exclusive.

2:27,950 208 291 BMW Z4 '03
2:27,819 207 288 BMW 330i '05
2:27,351 210 287 Volkswagen Golf VI R '10
2:27,100 208 273 Mercedes-Benz 190 E 2.5-16 Evolution II '91
2:26,340 212 280L Audi S4 '98
2:26,169 212 298 Audi TT Coupe 3.2 quattro '07
2:25,627 201 262 Opel Speedster '00
2:25,607 221 283L BMW M Coupe '98
2:24,473 218 311 Mercedes-Benz SL 500 (R230) '02
2:24,208 228 322 Mercedes-Benz CLK 55 AMG '00
2:24,193 218 286L Audi TTS Coupe '09
2:23,652 212 262L Opel Speedster Turbo '00
2:23,621 218 294 Volkswagen Scirocco R '10
2:22,937 222 295L Audi S4 '03
2:22,578 238 333L Audi RS 6 '02
2:22,026 231 314L Audi RS 4 '01
2:21,089 223 306 BMW 135i Coupe '07
2:20,991 223 306 BMW Concept 1 series tii '07
2:20,815 240 349 Mercedes-Benz E 55 AMG '02
2:20,466 245 345 Mercedes-Benz SL 600 (R230) '04
2:19,191 246 363L Mercedes-Benz SL 55 AMG (R230) '02
2:18,865 230 332 BMW M3 '04
2:18,682 231 332 BMW Z4 M Coupe '08
2:18,259 240 341 Mercedes-Benz C 63 AMG '08
2:18,071 245 359 Audi RS 6 Avant '08
2:17,936 235 339 BMW Z8 '01
2:17,312 237 341 BMW M3 Coupé '07
2:17,087 233 302L RUF 3400S '00
2:15,949 260 364 Mercedes-Benz SL 65 AMG (R230) '04
2:14,752 237 333 BMW M3 CSL '03
2:14,517 238 320 BMW M3 GTR '03
2:13,728 243 326L RUF RGT '00
2:13,612 250 362 BMW M5 '08
2:13,093 248 344 BMW M4 Coupé
2:12,834 263 380 RUF CTR2 '96
2:12,601 243 321L Audi R8 4.2 FSI R tronic '07
2:12,158 253 366 BMW M5 '05

Marked in bold are most cars @Patrick8308 has identified as being essential. These actually work out rather nicely. In italic are my suggestions to complete the field (where there were some "1 of the 2"-decisions). In detail, these are…

- There's a gap between the BMW 1 series tii and the Z4 M. Basically, any one of the 2 Mercedes R230 will do.
- Between the Z4 M and the RUF 3400S, the Audi RS6 fits quite nicely.
- I've marked the M5 '05, simply because it fits better (and it's the better car compared to the M5 '08). I know it's a standard model, but it's a sensational drive.

In terms of times spread between first and last, I would say the cars slower than the CLK are already too slow compared with the M5 '05 or the R8 4.2 (and at least one of those should be on the list). I would also have liked to include the 190E Evo, but I think we would have to cut the list on the fast end then, and I don't think that's worth it.

I've marked 14 cars bold or italic, and if I had to add more, I'd probably include the Z8.

None of the cars have limiter problems.

Now it's @Patrick8308 's turn to pick.

 

[snowgt]

By the way, there might be enough cars to do a slower Schwarzwald list some day (probably with CS tyres).