Makeshift Shuffle Club - Time Trials & Testing for club car lists - all welcomeOpen

[snowgt]

I think there's no need to enforce usage of a SH/SM combination on any car. If SM is the tyre of choice for a certain list, in my opinion it's perfectly fine for anyone to use any harder tyre in any combination they prefer. It may well work better for some, and others might prefer the oversteering.

 

[watermelon punch]

Well if someone's spun out in the track lots, and getting penalties for causing collisions or being reckless, then:
1) I don't think they prefer the oversteering
2) I don't think they can continue to claim it's working better for them

Mostly, I think it would help to pressure people to use the tire combo so that if there's a question of pride being involved, they would be off the hook, because then it's just a case of "Well, I'm mandated to do it because I was naughty." which might feel better than, "I need extra help." hahaha.

 

[tarnheld]

We don't have enough lists cooking right now, so i throw this one out, can you hear me @Chiochan?

Rallye Classics

(P) RR  344PP 99HP  117Nm 850kg   50,000 Cr Renault R8 Gordini '66                        
(S) RR  359PP 123HP 148Nm 930kg   33,000 Cr Alpine A310 1600VE '73                        
(S) FF  348PP 102HP 132Nm 890kg   12,630 Cr Peugeot 106 Rallye '03                        
(P) 4WD 401PP 207HP 304Nm 1350kg  54,500 Cr Lancia DELTA HF Integrale Evoluzione '91      
(S) 4WD 399PP 200HP 289Nm 1290kg  90,360 Cr Audi quattro '82                              
(S) 4WD 417PP 227HP XXXNm 1202kg 400,000 Cr Mitsubishi PAJERO Rally Raid Car '85          
(S) FR  406PP 153HP XXXNm 825kg   50,000 Cr Mitsubishi Lancer 1600 GSR Rally Car '74      
(S) FR  355PP 128HP 152Nm 965kg  125,000 Cr Nissan BLUEBIRD Rally Car (510) '69          
(P) RR  422PP 138HP XXXNm 715kg  100,000 Cr Alpine A110 1600S '72                        
(S) FR  327PP 104HP 147Nm 1050kg  12,680 Cr Nissan BLUEBIRD Hardtop 1800SSS (910) '79    
(S) FR  435PP 237HP 235Nm 970kg   72,200 Cr Nissan Silvia 240RS (S110) '83                
(S) FR  440PP 237HP 235Nm 970kg  750,000 Cr Nissan 240RS Rally Car '85                    
(S) 4WD 408PP 194HP 255Nm 1145kg  78,400 Cr Peugeout 205 Turbo 16 '85                    
(S) MR  388PP 155HP 221Nm 970kg   74,500 Cr Renault R5 Turbo '80

I just compiled this from kudosprime, i have no idea how they play together. The 106 sticks out by begin too young, the 240RS Rally Car version by being expensive as hell, that's why there is the road car included. I'm planning to test them someday on snow and dirt.

 

[snowgt]

We don't have enough lists cooking right now, so i throw this one out, can you hear me @Chiochan?

Rallye Classics

(P) RR  344PP 99HP  117Nm 850kg   50,000 Cr Renault R8 Gordini '66                       
(S) RR  359PP 123HP 148Nm 930kg   33,000 Cr Alpine A310 1600VE '73                       
(S) FF  348PP 102HP 132Nm 890kg   12,630 Cr Peugeot 106 Rallye '03                       
(P) 4WD 401PP 207HP 304Nm 1350kg  54,500 Cr Lancia DELTA HF Integrale Evoluzione '91     
(S) 4WD 399PP 200HP 289Nm 1290kg  90,360 Cr Audi quattro '82                             
(S) 4WD 417PP 227HP XXXNm 1202kg 400,000 Cr Mitsubishi PAJERO Rally Raid Car '85         
(S) FR  406PP 153HP XXXNm 825kg   50,000 Cr Mitsubishi Lancer 1600 GSR Rally Car '74     
(S) FR  355PP 128HP 152Nm 965kg  125,000 Cr Nissan BLUEBIRD Rally Car (510) '69         
(P) RR  422PP 138HP XXXNm 715kg  100,000 Cr Alpine A110 1600S '72                       
(S) FR  327PP 104HP 147Nm 1050kg  12,680 Cr Nissan BLUEBIRD Hardtop 1800SSS (910) '79   
(S) FR  435PP 237HP 235Nm 970kg   72,200 Cr Nissan Silvia 240RS (S110) '83               
(S) FR  440PP 237HP 235Nm 970kg  750,000 Cr Nissan 240RS Rally Car '85                   
(S) 4WD 408PP 194HP 255Nm 1145kg  78,400 Cr Peugeout 205 Turbo 16 '85                   
(S) MR  388PP 155HP 221Nm 970kg   74,500 Cr Renault R5 Turbo '80

I just compiled this from kudosprime, i have no idea how they play together. The 106 sticks out by begin too young, the 240RS Rally Car version by being expensive as hell, that's why there is the road car included. I'm planning to test them someday on snow and dirt.

Oh, don't get me started on ideas I had that I haven't even posted about.

I'm not too sure about the group-racing on dirt/snow tracks though. I find it very hard to pass anyone without risking contact as cars are usually sideways on narrow tracks and therefore essentially blocking your way (and are not entirely under the driver's control more of the time as usual). There's a reason that cars used in rally-cross and ice-racing rarely cross the finish-line unscathed.

 

[watermelon punch]

It's entirely okay to dream...

 

[Patrick8308]

Premium Sports Coupes - Testing

online, grip real, SM, ABS 1, AT, DS3, 4 laps

GVER

1:12,455 -- Evora '09
1:11,488 -- SKYLINE GT-R V・spec II Nür (R34) '02
1:09,246 -- 8C Competizione '08
1:09,010 -- Tuscan Speed 6 '00

Laguna Seca

1:38,446 -- Evora '09
1:37,419 -- SKYLINE GT-R V・spec II Nür (R34) '02
1:35,346 -- 8C Competizione '08
1:34,579 -- Tuscan Speed 6 '00

The Tuscan is slightly better than the 8C, seems to have little better acceleration. It's even a bit more stable and provides better handling.

The Skyline is a wonderful 4WD, not too understeery and good speed, nothing to complain on that car.

The Evora is the slowest but has very strong brakes. It feels like a typical MR so you have to be careful with the throttle. Maybe that's a reason too for the slowest time. I did the tests with SM/SM but maybe the Evora could profit in lap times by putting SH on front.

 

[tarnheld]

I'm not too sure about the group-racing on dirt/snow tracks though. I find it very hard to pass anyone without risking contact as cars are usually sideways on narrow tracks and therefore essentially blocking your way (and are not entirely under the driver's control more of the time as usual). There's a reason that cars used in rally-cross and ice-racing rarely cross the finish-line unscathed.

Yeah, hard to regulate here, on snow and dirt it's hard to see early braking because of spray/dust. And it's hard to define track boundaries for the dirt tracks, at Toscana you can cut corners to your delight. Might go with fences as boundaries, but there are even invisible walls at the end of Toscana.

 

[snowgt]

Previous testing times for Premium Sports continued…

2:08,719 264 355L Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG '10
2:08,542 270 381 SRT Viper GTS '13
2:08,338 264 331L Nissan GT-R Nismo '14
2:08,193 271 375 Alfa Romeo TZ3 Stradale '11
2:07,836 275 374L Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 (C6) '09
2:07,074 282 406L Aston Martin One-77 '11

And, yes…that's a "4" with the One-77's top speed. And here's some more cars that fit the profile, but are on the Luxury-list…

2:18,188 238 317 Maserati GranTurismo S '08
2:17,936 235 339 BMW Z8 '01
2:16,506 241 333 Aston Martin DB9 Coupe '06

And then I had an idea. What if we make the Luxury-list all for 4-door saloons (there would be enough)? That would free up the Maserati, which fits soooo perfectly at #1. I've also tried to put together a list that will feature the California as high as possible with keeping a decent spread overall and in line with the front-engined theme.

1. Maserati GranTurismo S '08
2. Cadillac CTS-V Coupe '11
3. Jaguar XKR Coupe '10
4. Chevrolet Camaro SS '10
5. Alfa Romeo 8C Competizione '08
6. Aston Martin V12 Vantage '10
7. Ferrari California '08
8. BMW M4 Coupé
9. SRT Viper GTS '02
10. Chevrolet Corvette Stingray (C7) '14
11. Nissan GT-R '07
12. Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren '09
13. Ferrari 599 '06
14. Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG '10
15. Alfa Romeo TZ3 Stradale '11
16. Aston Martin One-77 '11

What do you guys think…? (We could take the Camaro out to move the others higher, but that would leave a pretty big gap between the XKR and the 8C)

 

[amarynceos]

Looks promising. I have to collect times for the Maserati, SLR McLaren, TZ3 and One-77 before I can finalize my thoughts on it. The last three are really expensive, so I've been putting off testing them (they've been on my list for consideration for some time now.)

I would use one of the TVRs, probably the Tuscan, instead of the 8C. Times are quite similar, and the TVR is a more enjoyable drive, for me at least. The Alfa I found just kind of... blaaaaah.

Also, I wish I could find something that would fit in the 599's space in the times, I find it to be more of a prancing pig than pony... really disappointing drive, for a Ferrari. It's not horrible by any means, just prone to understeer on entry and mid-corner. It seems to hate trailing brake quite a bit.

Camaro stays for sure.

 

[Patrick8308]

When reading through all that news about B-Spec, Midfield and MINI the VGTs came to my eye and.....
.....the idea was born: a VGT list.

Has this ever been discussed before? Or is this absurd?

At the moment 11 VGTs have been released. The LM55 ist too fast in comparison to the other cars. And Chaparral, well let's forget about this quickly.

So this leaves a list of 9 following cars:

Aston Martin DP-100 Vision Gran Turismo PP649 4WD800 HP1375 kg 1050 Nm 1,000,000 Cr
BMW Vision GT PP612 FR541 HP1180 kg 676 Nm 1,000,000 Cr
Infiniti CONCEPT Vision Gran Turismo PP563 FR535 HP1680 kg 510 Nm 1,000,000 Cr
Mercedes-Benz AMG Vision Gran Turismo PP584 FR577 HP1385 kg 800 Nm 1,000,000 Cr
Mitsubishi Concept XR-PHEV EVOLUTION Vision Gran Turismo PP609 4WD503 HP1350 kg 1014 Nm 1,000,000 Cr
Nissan CONCEPT 2020 Vision Gran Turismo PP615 4WD??? 1,000,000 Cr
Subaru VIZIV GT Vision Gran Turismo PP605 4WD630 HP1380 kg 490 Nm 1,000,000 Cr
Toyota FT-1 Vision Gran Turismo PP637 ??? 1,000,000 Cr
Volkswagen GTI Roadster Vision Gran Turismo ????? 4WD??? 1,000,000 Cr.

I guess most of us have done the seasonals and own these cars already. I think I'm only missing one. But one can buy them for 1,000,000 Cr. in case one or another car is missing in someones garrage.

Usually there's no opportunity to race those VGTs so I thought it might me cool to at least think about such a list.

Oh, and when new VGTs will be released they could be tested and the list could be adjusted easily.

So what are thoughts on that?

 

[tarnheld]

a VGT list.

And i thought the rally list would be crazy.

But seriously, as intriguing the idea might be, they have all the KERS stuff, the FT-1 even manually controlled, and are more of a racing bred. I doubt that they are comparable enough to put them in an order. I had the pleasure to race the Subaru VIZIV in the Community Club though, was nice!

 

[snowgt]

Looks promising. I have to collect times for the Maserati, SLR McLaren, TZ3 and One-77 before I can finalize my thoughts on it. The last three are really expensive, so I've been putting off testing them (they've been on my list for consideration for some time now.)

I would use one of the TVRs, probably the Tuscan, instead of the 8C. Times are quite similar, and the TVR is a more enjoyable drive, for me at least. The Alfa I found just kind of... blaaaaah.

Also, I wish I could find something that would fit in the 599's space in the times, I find it to be more of a prancing pig than pony... really disappointing drive, for a Ferrari. It's not horrible by any means, just prone to understeer on entry and mid-corner. It seems to hate trailing brake quite a bit.

Camaro stays for sure.

With the really fast ones it's amazing how much you have to adapt your braking point. You arrive so much quicker, it's quite tricky, if you drive them back to back with slower cars. The SLR doesn't feel really fast, but it's pretty neutral and got that power to deliver the lap times, the TZ3 feels (and looks) just sublime in my view, and the One-77 is just blindingly fast with all its power (don't let the stress of keeping it on the road fool you - it's not a bad chassis either ).

I think one doesn't need to forget though that the faster cars can't necessarily negotiate corners that much quicker. Corner speeds are mostly the same, only people tend to come in quicker and then encounter understeer when they need to lose speed. Slow in, fast out is all the more important there. I think that's one reason many people rant about the Veyron being a horrible car. It's actually a very good car considering its weight, but people never brake early enough when using it.

Anyway, I would hate to see the 8C go. I also found it quite entertaining to drive, much more so than it used to be in GT5. If you want one of the TVRs, I'd say the Tamora, but that's personal preference. From the time gaps, the Tuscan would probably be the sensible filler.

As for the 599, I'd vote to leave it in, but if you want to replace it, I'd suggest some reshuffling...

- use the Nissan GT-R SpecV instead of the 599 (similar speed)
- to get rid of the basic GT-R, which is redundant now, use the SRT Viper SRT10 Coupe '06 instead (similar speed)
- get rid of the now redundant SRT Viper GTS '02 - doesn't need a direct replacement, because other cars are very similar in speed already (California, M4). It would potentially free up a spot on the roster though. (maybe Viper '13?)

In terms of gaps, maybe the list could do without the CTS-V (you had kicked it out already in a past iteration). That would have the benefit of moving some well-liked cars a little higher. In terms of total spread, I think it's spot on with Maserati-to-One-77. Not using TZ3 and One-77 would mean having to take slower cars in and pushing the desirables back down again.

That would maybe make the list look like this...

1. Maserati GranTurismo S '08
2. Jaguar XKR Coupe '10
3. Chevrolet Camaro SS '10
4. Alfa Romeo 8C Competizione '08 or TVR Tamora '02 or TVR Tuscan Speed 6 '00
   
5. Aston Martin V12 Vantage '10
6. Ferrari California '08
7. BMW M4 Coupé
8. Chevrolet Corvette Stingray (C7) '14
9. SRT Viper SRT10 Coupe '06
10. Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren '09
11. Nissan GT-R SpecV '09
12. Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG '10
13. Alfa Romeo TZ3 Stradale '11
14. Aston Martin One-77 '11

Maybe we could keep the 8C and a TVR...?

 

[snowgt]

Just to illustrate what a revamped Luxury, 4-door only list could look like...

1. BMW 330i '05
2. Nissan Skyline Sedan 350GT Type SP '06
3. Chrysler 300C '05
4. Holden Commodore SS '04
5. Audi S4 '03
6. Tom's X540 Chaser '00
   
7. Audi RS 4 '01
8. Mercedes-Benz E 55 AMG '02
9. Jaguar S-Type R '02
10. SRT Charger SRT8 '11
11. Jaguar XFR '10
12. Audi RS 6 Avant '08
13. Mercedes-Benz C 63 AMG '08
14. Lexus IS F '07
15. BMW M5 '08
    

 

[Patrick8308]

Just to illustrate what a revamped Luxury, 4-door only list could look like...

Audi RS 4 '01
Audi RS 6 Avant '08
BMW M5 '08
Mercedes-Benz E 55 AMG '02

Those 4 actually should make it to the "Schwarzwald League" list.
When choosing potential cars for the list I stayed off the ones in the Luxury list (135i, Z8, M3 Coupe, S4, C63 AMG, SL 55 AMG) already.

So I really have to speak out a veto to that suggestion!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
EDIT:

On the other hand your suggestion would make the 135i, Z8 and SL55 AMG available for my list
(in case they don't all appear on another list together)💡

So we need to discuss this.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
EDIT 2:

I checked the lists and the suggestions in detail again.
Actually there would be no need to revamp the Luxury List just to make the Maserati available.💡
As I can see it's the only car from the Luxury list being chosen for the Premium Sports.
And this is possible! We stated that recently I guess.

 

[snowgt]

Actually there would be no need to revamp the Luxury List just to make the Maserati available.💡
As I can see it's the only car from the Luxury list being chosen for the Premium Sports.
And this is possible! We stated that recently I guess.

True.

And there's certainly no problem to get a list with German cars together. I have about 50 possible cars on my radar to test, no matter if they have been used on other lists or not. So I wouldn't worry too much - you'll get your list together.

 

[tarnheld]

So let's shape that Schwarzwald League list a bit, these are the must have cars of @Patrick8308's post earlier:

• Audi R8 4.2 FSI R tronic '07
• RUF RGT '00
• BMW M4 Coupé
• BMW M3 CSL '03
• RUF 3400S '00
• BMW M5 '08
• Audi RS 4 '01
• Mercedes-Benz SL 600 (R230) '04
• BMW Concept 1 Series tii '07
• Mercedes-Benz CLK 55 AMG '00
• Volkswagen Scirocco R '10
• Opel Speedster Turbo '00
• Mercedes-Benz SL 500 (R230) '02

I like the R8, the BMW 1 Series, and the Opel. The RUF 3400S could find a nice place here, as the M3 CSL. But i think one SL is enough, and the RS4 and M5 stick out being 4doors. Maybe take the TTS Coupe for the RS4 and the Z4 Coupe for the M5. And add that 190E Evo '91 on top! And the New Beetle RSI would fit too. Maybe something like this:

• Audi R8 4.2 FSI R tronic '07
• RUF RGT '00
• BMW M4 Coupe '14
• BMW M3 CSL '03
• RUF 3400S '00
• BMW Z4 M Coupe '08
• Audi TTS Coupe '09
• Mercedes-Benz SL 600 (R230) '04
• BMW Concept 1 Series tii '07
• Mercedes-Benz CLK 55 AMG '00
• Volkswagen Scirocco R '10
• Opel Speedster Turbo '00
• Volkswagen New Beetle RS¡ '00
• Mercedes-Benz 190 E 2.5 -16 Evolution II '91

That's 4 BMWs, 3 Mercs, 2 Audis, 2 VWs and one Opel.

Car to be considered too are: Z8, CL 600.

 

[tarnheld]

BTW, i like @snowgt's idea with the 4door luxury list revamp. But i don't like seeing the Viper GTS '02 go from the Sports Coupe list, the looks are better than the SRT10 IMHO and it drives like a dream, even with stock BB and ABS0.

 

[tarnheld]

Has this ever been discussed before? Or is this absurd?

Nothing is too crazy to not have been discussed already on !
See here. Seems the VGTs are not that spread out, except the Chaparral and the Mazda. I just put the TT times of the three tracks and the top speeds in an ordering sheet and it spat out these numbers:

0.25 Infiniti
2.50 Mitsubishi
2.75 Volkswagen
4.00 Mercedes
4.00 BMW
4.50 Subaru
5.25 Aston Martin
6.00 Nissan
7.25 Mercedes Race
9.25 Toyota

9.25 Mazda (much better TT times than Toyota, but slower top speed thats why it gets the same FT points)
11.00 Chaparral (too far out)

 

[Patrick8308]

And there's certainly no problem to get a list with German cars together. I have about 50 possible cars on my radar to test, no matter if they have been used on other lists or not. So I wouldn't worry too much - you'll get your list together.

Sure it's no problem to get any list with German cars together but it was not my goal to develop any list when creating this idea. It was supposed to have the R8/ RUFs/ M4/ M5 on the fast end and the Scirocco/ Speedster/ TTS on the slow end - this was the basic idea.💡

When selecting possible cars I was checking existing lists and current testing lists to not choose any car on those lists. As we have decided meanwhile it's possible to have upto 3 cars of 3 different other lists in consideration for a new list. So these requirements have changed a bit and there's more flexibility.👍

What I want to say is that I didn't ignore fixed lists or the ideas of others. And I guess you should respect mine aswell.
Don't get me wrong, you are a great skilled driver and very intense tester. But sometimes it seems a bit too patronizing to me and I feel overlooked when you ignore my ideas.

Nevertheless creating a list is a group thing in the end and my conception of the list is not written in stone. We can discuss it for sure, actually that's what it is supposed to be like.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have to admit that the revamp of the orginial Luxury list to a luxury sports sedan list is quite good.👍 This would increase the distinction of a Luxury Sedan and Premium Sports Coupes even better.💡

The side effect would be the axed cars being potentially available for other lists:

a) for Schwarzwald League:
BMW 135i Coupe '07
BMW Z8 '01
BMW M3 Coupe '07
Mercedes-Benz SL 55 AMG (R230) '02

b) for Premium Sports Coupes:
Aston Martin DB9 Coupe '06
BMW M3 Coupe '07
Maserati GRANTURISMO S '08

c) any other exisiting or future list
Jaguar XK Coupe Luxury '07
Infiniti G35 Coupe '06
Aston Martin VANQUISH '04

As we can see the adaption of the Luxury list brings a lot of advantages and I think it could be a good idea to implement this.👍

The M3 Coupe '07 and GRANTURISMO S '08 seem to have very simliar performance, so the BMW might be available too. But since @amarynceos goal seemed to be "Premium" not only to be standing for the interior view but ideally also should define the cars to be expensive and exclusive the Maserati is the way better choice.

The DB9 Coupe '06 is a bit better according to the existing Luxury list order but might integrate perfectly in the Premium list aswell.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I like the R8, the BMW 1 Series, and the Opel. The RUF 3400S could find a nice place here, as the M3 CSL. But i think one SL is enough, and the RS4 and M5 stick out being 4doors. Maybe take the TTS Coupe for the RS4 and the Z4 Coupe for the M5. And add that 190E Evo '91 on top! And the New Beetle RSI would fit too. Maybe something like this:

• Audi R8 4.2 FSI R tronic '07
• RUF RGT '00
• BMW M4 Coupe '14
• BMW M3 CSL '03
• RUF 3400S '00
• BMW Z4 M Coupe '08
• Audi TTS Coupe '09
• Mercedes-Benz SL 600 (R230) '04
• BMW Concept 1 Series tii '07
• Mercedes-Benz CLK 55 AMG '00
• Volkswagen Scirocco R '10
• Opel Speedster Turbo '00
• Volkswagen New Beetle RS¡ '00
• Mercedes-Benz 190 E 2.5 -16 Evolution II '91

That's 4 BMWs, 3 Mercs, 2 Audis, 2 VWs and one Opel.

I like those suggestions in general.👍
Besides the cars listed under a) above it would be possible to include 1 car of that new Luxury Sedan list in the German car list too - I would suggest to choose between the M5 and RS4. This would make some adaptions possible:

• Audi R8 4.2 FSI R tronic '07
• RUF RGT '00
• BMW M4 Coupe '14
• BMW M3 CSL '03
• BMW Z8 '01
  
• RUF 3400S '00
• BMW Z4 M Coupe '08
• Audi RS4 '01
  
• Audi TTS Coupe '09
• Mercedes-Benz SL 600 (R230) '04 / SL 55 AMG (R230) '02
  
• BMW Concept 1 Series tii '07 / 135i Coupe '07
  
• Mercedes-Benz CLK 55 AMG '00
• Volkswagen Scirocco R '10
• Opel Speedster Turbo '00
• Volkswagen New Beetle RS¡ '00
• Mercedes-Benz 190 E 2.5 -16 Evolution II '91

I like the M5 '08 a lot but gave the RS4 '01 the choice, simply to not make the list too BMW-heavy.

Overall it's 5 BMWs, 3 Mercedes, 3 Audis, 2 VWs and 1 Opel.👍

 

[Patrick8308]

Nothing is too crazy to not have been discussed already on !
See here. Seems the VGTs are not that spread out, except the Chaparral and the Mazda. I just put the TT times of the three tracks and the top speeds in an ordering sheet and it spat out these numbers:

0.25 Infiniti
2.50 Mitsubishi
2.75 Volkswagen
4.00 Mercedes
4.00 BMW
4.50 Subaru
5.25 Aston Martin
6.00 Nissan
7.25 Mercedes Race
9.25 Toyota

Does this mean such a list is more possible then thought before or are the spreads too close?

 

[snowgt]

So let's shape that Schwarzwald League list a bit, these are the must have cars of @Patrick8308's post earlier:
I like the R8, the BMW 1 Series, and the Opel. The RUF 3400S could find a nice place here, as the M3 CSL. But i think one SL is enough, and the RS4 and M5 stick out being 4doors. Maybe take the TTS Coupe for the RS4 and the Z4 Coupe for the M5. And add that 190E Evo '91 on top! And the New Beetle RSI would fit too. Maybe something like this:

The 190E Evo is 4-door, too. To be honest, I don't think it matters in this list so much. It's German, that should be enough.

BTW, i like @snowgt's idea with the 4door luxury list revamp. But i don't like seeing the Viper GTS '02 go from the Sports Coupe list, the looks are better than the SRT10 IMHO and it drives like a dream, even with stock BB and ABS0.

I have no preference for one or the other - that idea was simply coming from @amarynceos wish to possibly get rid of the 599. I basically just drew conclusions as to how that would shape up in terms of a balanced roster.

 

[tarnheld]

The 190E Evo is 4-door, too.

NOOO!

Yeah, too much choice for the Sports Coupe list ... you really put forward a comprehensive testing -- altogether 43 cars in the spreadsheet now! 👍 Don't worry, i just voice my opinion here and there... Really appreciate your thorough testing and car infos, keep it coming!

 

[tarnheld]

Does this mean such a list is more possible then thought before or are the spreads too close?

From the times in the post it looks like close racing is possible ... but i leave that for others to decide. But if someone wants to pursue that further, just go ahead! 👍

EDIT: Sorry for that double posting!

 

[snowgt]

Sure it's no problem to get any list with German cars together but it was not my goal to develop any list when creating this idea. It was supposed to have the R8/ RUFs/ M4/ M5 on the fast end and the Scirocco/ Speedster/ TTS on the slow end - this was the basic idea.💡

When selecting possible cars I was checking existing lists and current testing lists to not choose any car on those lists. As we have decided meanwhile it's possible to to have upto 3 cars of 3 different other lists in consideration for a new list. So these requirements have changed a bit and there's more flexibility.👍

What I want to say is that I didn't ignore fixed lists or the ideas of others. And I guess you should respect mine aswell.
Don't get me wrong, you are a great skilled driver and very intense tester. But sometimes it seems a bit too patronizing to me and I feel overlooked when you ignore my ideas.

Nevertheless creating a list is a group thing in the end and my conception of the list is not written in stone. We can discuss it for sure, actually that's what it is supposed to be like.

You misunderstood my intentions. I do respect the fact that this list is representing what you want it to be like and that's what it should mainly be. However, there are certain constraints that need to be addressed to come up with a final list, e.g. how much the list is spread from first to last, how evenly distributed the car's performances are, if certain cars are placed where they even get a chance to be driven every once in a while, etc. I didn't mean to be dismissive about what you had already come up with, I merely offered to broaden the scope of my testing (if anyone else even considers that afterwards is totally up to them), so as to have the best basis for decision-making later on. Just in case there is a need to extend the spread, find a car for a gap on the list, etc.

I merely provide test-data. I'm not making any decisions - I just point out alternatives or make suggestions. If it comes across as if I want to take charge, that's not the case. And I do agree, discussing which cars should make it, and what might have to be changed, makes up a lot of the fun of compiling these lists.

I like those suggestions in general.👍
Besides the cars listed under a) above it would be possible to include 1 car of that new Luxury Sedan list in the German car list too - I would suggest to choose between the M5 and RS4. This would make some adaptions possible:

• Audi R8 4.2 FSI R tronic '07
• RUF RGT '00
• BMW M4 Coupe '14
• BMW M3 CSL '03
• BMW Z8 '01
  
• RUF 3400S '00
• BMW Z4 M Coupe '08
• Audi RS4 '01
  
• Audi TTS Coupe '09
• Mercedes-Benz SL 600 (R230) '04 / SL 55 AMG (R230) '02
  
• BMW Concept 1 Series tii '07 / 135i Coupe '07
  
• Mercedes-Benz CLK 55 AMG '00
• Volkswagen Scirocco R '10
• Opel Speedster Turbo '00
• Volkswagen New Beetle RS¡ '00
• Mercedes-Benz 190 E 2.5 -16 Evolution II '91

I like the M5 '08 a lot but gave the RS4 '01 the choice, simply to not make the list not too BMW-heavy.

Overall it's 5 BWWs, 3 Mercedes, 3 Audis, 2 VWs and 1 Opel.👍

I like the list, although the New Beetle might fall off in terms of speed on first glance. I'll find out in testing. (I hope I'll get through it until the end of the week, but I already tested a couple for the Premium Sports Coupés)

 

[Patrick8308]

You misunderstood my intentions. I do respect the fact that this list is representing what you want it to be like and that's what it should mainly be. However, there are certain constraints that need to be addressed to come up with a final list, e.g. how much the list is spread from first to last, how evenly distributed the car's performances are, if certain cars are placed where they even get a chance to be driven every once in a while, etc. I didn't mean to be dismissive about what you had already come up with, I merely offered to broaden the scope of my testing (if anyone else even considers that afterwards is totally up to them), so as to have the best basis for decision-making later on. Just in case there is a need to extend the spread, find a car for a gap on the list, etc.

I merely provide test-data. I'm not making any decisions - I just point out alternatives or make suggestions. If it comes across as if I want to take charge, that's not the case. And I do agree, discussing which cars should make it, and what might have to be changed, makes up a lot of the fun of compiling these lists.

This clear statement makes me understand your intentions better!

 

[snowgt]

NOOO!

Yeah, too much choice for the Sports Coupe list ... you really put forward a comprehensive testing -- altogether 43 cars in the spreadsheet now! 👍 Don't worry, i just voice my opinion here and there... Really appreciate your thorough testing and car infos, keep it coming!

Thanks, I enjoy it! I think it makes sense, if I just keep testing the faster cars on Suzuka 2014 with SM tyres, and for the slower ones on Motegi East with CS (there's no other series planned with SH that I'm aware of at the moment, I think), so that we're gradually building a cross-list data set that can be referenced for any future series with less and less testing work to be done as I keep adding to it.

 

[watermelon punch]

So wait...
@amarynceos 's list it's only 2-door
but
@Patrick8308 's list allows 4-door
??

Am I correct in this?

 

[tarnheld]

Am I correct in this?

Yep, and @snowgt proposed to revamp the Luxury list to include only 4-doors.

 

[Patrick8308]

[QUOTE="watermelon punch, post: 10488401, member: 182064"
@Patrick8308 's list allows 4-door
??[/QUOTE]
No door restrictions in my list. Never mentioned anything about doors at all yet.

 

[snowgt]

No door restrictions in my list. Never mentioned anything about doors at all yet.

I was going to say "2 doors or more", but then I thought of the Schwimmwagen (no doors).