Maybe really good AI isn't a realistic expectation in the GT series?

[SuperCobraJet]

So the question is: Can't they or they just don't want to ?!

Or, who knows why?

Personally, I think PD probably classifies the AI as a no-win situation.
Or in other words, no matter how they change the AI, it won't produce a significant favorable increase among players as a whole.
Probably about half will still dislike the AI, and about half will like it.

I never really gave much thought to the AI, past my next overtake, or whether one of them might be gaining on me.
In the endurance races, if you are going to attempt a close race, you have to do some calculating on their pit sequence and lap times.
Otherwise, thats about it.

I do agree with most of you though, that at this point, PD does need to take a bigger swing at some AI advancements.
Of course there is always a chance they could make them worse, but some trial and error might have to
be encountered, to further the cause.

 

[Fat Tyre]

Since I played the seasonal events that involves overtaking cars, this is what I instantly thought:

The AI need major improvements and i'm getting sick of rolling starts and having to wait 15 seconds to start the race for some tracks.

Same here, next time you play a seasonal "overtaking" event try not to overtake the last car (15th position) and just match its pace for about a lap... sometimes that means following a Ruf at snail pace. Doing that left me with the thought they are not individual bots but a single 15 part bot (in 16 car races obviously). It seems it is all programmed by position regardless of what type of car it is. The thing is that last car is just programmed to stay in last position and will not even try to improve its pace. I have seen the same type of car behave completely different when it starts in second position, this goes against the thought that AI needs to learn how to drive each car individually.

 

[TomBrady]

My recent foray into Grid Autosport has reminded me just how enjoyable offline racing could be given some enjoyable physics, good sounds and AI that behave in a near human fashion. But GAS has a couple of advantages in crafting good AI that GT doesn't and can't have. The physics model is quite simplified (albeit effective and it feels darn good through the wheel) and a relative dearth of differing cars.

I'm wondering if these advantages for GAS aren't bordering on near insurmountable obstacles in creating good AI for GT. Perhaps there are just too many cars, with too great a variance in handling and grip between the differing car models and too large variety of tracks to be able to create one AI model that works in every circumstance to produce good, close racing, that's scalable to different skill levels and tastes.

Do you think it's possible that GT's greatest strength, variety, is also responsible for it's great weakness, poor offline racing? Are we asking for too much from a $60 video game? For the more technically minded, is this a hurdle than can be overcome with such a wide variety of cars and tracks? Should we temper our expectations and perhaps hope for good AI only within a fixed class of car or one-make races?

I completely disagree. Grid Autosport has made me remember of how fast, but stupid codemasters AI can be. Constantly I'm being smashed into as if they don't even know I'm there. It's worse than GT. People whine about GT's AI, but at least they're not smashing into unless you're stopped on the track which happens less now anyways.

Plus, PD is capable of fast AI. GT PSP had the most challenging AI in the series and it didn't have the crazy rubber banding that GT1-3 had. If you and the S class AI had the same car, they were really tough to beat even on racing tires and it got worse on sports tires.

Part of it could be that you're trying to play a realistic racing game on a PSP or PS Vita, but there's still no doubt the AI was challenging.

PD is definitely capable of good AI. I think the AI in GT6 is good but it's too slow. If they just let use speed the AI up, I think it would be far better than Grid Autosport.

Maybe something like what Milestone has would be good. 10 levels of AI difficulty. The fastest being alien fast, the slowest being too slow even for noobs. That amount of scalability would be perfect.

 

[Tornado]

GT4 AI didn't have rubber banding, and GTPSP AI did.

 

[TomBrady]

GT4 AI didn't have rubber banding, and GTPSP AI did.

They both had some rubber banding. Difference is GT PSP's AI was better.

 

[Tornado]

No, it didn't. All else being equal (meaning when tire wear wasn't a factor), the GT4 AI would run identical laps (we're talking frequently within hundredths of a second) for hours regardless of how far ahead or behind the player was in relation to them. It was only when the player (or another AI) was near them that they would deviate from the racing line and have different lap times. It was half of the reason it was so terrible compared to the much more organic AI of GT2 and GT3, since the way those two games were structured made it much harder to tell when the AI was unfairly catching up and therefore provided much closer racing. It was especially obvious in B-Spec (I easily put hundreds of hours in B-Spec in GT4 where I saw it), because all you had to do then was build a car that would consistently lap half a second or so faster than the best AI car when driven by B-Spec Bob when put on Pace 3, and you would win every time once you finally got past them.

GTPSP's AI was better than GT4s despite the return of rubber banding, but PD could scarcely have done a worse job with AI than they did with "frequently can't even compete a single lap without crashing" crap GT4 was plagued with.

 

[MustangManiac]

I completely disagree. Grid Autosport has made me remember of how fast, but stupid codemasters AI can be. Constantly I'm being smashed into as if they don't even know I'm there. It's worse than GT. People whine about GT's AI, but at least they're not smashing into unless you're stopped on the track which happens less now anyways.

I found that once I was able to run laps as fast, or faster, than the ai then they pretty much stopped running over me 👍

 

[rambo793]

I agree with you @Johnnypenso.
GAS has reminded me of what I had very well forgotten; what it was like to have a fantastic racing experience with intense opponents without having to go online to find like-minded people.

I own GT5 and 6 and not in a single race in either of them have I gotten so worn out and kept on edge like I'd been on my first race on GAS ( with AI difficulty set to Very Hard and Race length set to x5, mind you!).
The last time I enjoyed racing at such a competetive level "offline" was.

I really cant fathom what's stopping PD from tweaking their AI to be even half as competitive as we have seen they can be elsewhere.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

I agree with the OP's assessment. The more complex a game's physics, the harder it is to create fast AI without resorting to giving them an artificial advantage. If the AI's are racing each other in a scripted manner then it's possible, but throw in a human player into the mix where the AI has to make reactions then it's near impossible. Just imagine the complexity of the throttle/brake/steering inputs of the top GT Academy drivers, and multiply them by 15, then add situational awareness and randomised actions every now and then to create "believable" AI. Multiplied by the number of cars/tuning/tracks/weather combinations and it's just not possible. Not with the PS3's computing power anyway (keeping in mind it has to read your inputs and render graphics etc at the same time).

I used to play a PC sim called Viper Racing that is highly moddable. To get the AI to work on new tracks and cars we had to make a special tire with 2x the normal grip just to keep them on the road. And even then sometimes they still fail catastrophically when human players try to battle them. Given PD's penchant to keep things "pure" I doubt they would want to give the AI cars ultra grippy tires.

I'm not saying that PD AI's couldn't be better. The rubberbanding ia no-no, and they could certainly be faster and less "polite", but expecting them to perform like NFS or Codemasters AI is just not gonna happen with GT's physics and current hardware. Plus as a couple people say, GT's focus is more on driving and car collecting than racing. If you want to race there is always online. That's just the way it is.

 

[mister dog]

I completely disagree. Grid Autosport has made me remember of how fast, but stupid codemasters AI can be. Constantly I'm being smashed into as if they don't even know I'm there. It's worse than GT. People whine about GT's AI, but at least they're not smashing into unless you're stopped on the track which happens less now anyways.

Yes there is contact in GAS as the racing is tight, and sometimes you have to restart a race a couple of times because of first corner mayhem, but as @MustangManiac says once you are on the pace and know the circuits, racing them is just like in an online race, you have to push and fight for the finish line and 3rd place feels like a genuine accomplishment afterwards. Also we've noticed the AI is worse on medium, so Hard and Very Hard are better.

I've also spun into the apex of a blind corner and the bots coming up braked and avoided me at the last moment, so they are definitely not blind. This part is also the only plus point of GT's version, yes they try to avoid you (although i've heard they still tend to hit you up the back and close the door mid-corner as they don't see you), but apart from that they drive like a train of grandmothers heading for the supermarket...

 

[Johnnypenso]

This part is also the only plus point of GT's version, yes they try to avoid you (although i've heard they still tend to hit you up the back and close the door mid-corner as they don't see you), but apart from that they drive like a train of grandmothers heading for the supermarket...

Now a part of my sig...

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Yes there is contact in GAS as the racing is tight, and sometimes you have to restart a race a couple of times because of first corner mayhem, but as @MustangManiac says once you are on the pace and know the circuits, racing them is just like in an online race, you have to push and fight for the finish line and 3rd place feels like a genuine accomplishment afterwards. Also we've noticed the AI is worse on medium, so Hard and Very Hard are better.

Yea, I agree. I haven't been playing long, but recently switched to hard and the AI seems better.

but apart from that they drive like a train of grandmothers heading for the supermarket.

If there is a big sale on, I venture those grannies could be quite formidable.
Perhaps if PD fashioned the AI on that basis, it might solve the AI problem.

 

[mister dog]

Now a part of my sig...

I'm honored

 

[TomBrady]

Yes there is contact in GAS as the racing is tight, and sometimes you have to restart a race a couple of times because of first corner mayhem, but as @MustangManiac says once you are on the pace and know the circuits, racing them is just like in an online race, you have to push and fight for the finish line and 3rd place feels like a genuine accomplishment afterwards. Also we've noticed the AI is worse on medium, so Hard and Very Hard are better.

I've also spun into the apex of a blind corner and the bots coming up braked and avoided me at the last moment, so they are definitely not blind. This part is also the only plus point of GT's version, yes they try to avoid you (although i've heard they still tend to hit you up the back and close the door mid-corner as they don't see you), but apart from that they drive like a train of grandmothers heading for the supermarket...

The speed of GT's AI can be fixed easily though.

The thread's about whether or not it's realistic to expect good AI from the series, and I think not only it is, but its been done before in GT PSP.

I think part of the problem though is that upgrading is allowed in GT6's career mode races. If they had more restrictions it would be more competitive. GT PSP had no upgrading and only basic tuning so it was much easier for PD to provide challenging AI because the situation was much more controlled.

I think another huge problem is the idiotic need to always have rolling starts.

I'm sick of the whole chasing the rabbit crap. In GT PSP, there were standing starts and it worked because the AI was fast. That's what the main series needs.

 

[mister dog]

The speed of GT's AI can be fixed easily though.

The thread's about whether or not it's realistic to expect good AI from the series, and I think not only it is, but its been done before in GT PSP.

I think part of the problem though is that upgrading is allowed in GT6's career mode races. If they had more restrictions it would be more competitive. GT PSP had no upgrading and only basic tuning so it was much easier for PD to provide challenging AI because the situation was much more controlled.

I think another huge problem is the idiotic need to always have rolling starts.

I'm sick of the whole chasing the rabbit crap. In GT PSP, there were standing starts and it worked because the AI was fast. That's what the main series needs.

Haven't seen GT PSP's but yes combine standing starts with upgrade restrictions and you have what we need (simple no? ). Regarding GT's it used to be acceptable; you'd have to take a car lower on PP depending on how fast you were yourself, but it was possible to enjoy offline races further on than the first lap.

Like you say, with making the AI even slower to accomodate the chase the rabbit formula they suddenly introduced, it screwed it all up seeing you have to pass them all before the laps run out, and starting from the back that simply wouldn't be possible due do the 30 seconds or so handicap. Again another dumb design decision which raises eyebrows. Add this decision to all the other bad ones regarding gameplay and their blatant refusal to step away from their mistakes and do things differently in order to please their public (pride?), i think it's not very likely they will change anything about it for GT on the next gen, and we will still be chasing rabbits.

I'll bet they'll give us better sounds to throw us a bone though .

 

[Johnnypenso]

The speed of GT's AI can be fixed easily though.

The thread's about whether or not it's realistic to expect good AI from the series, and I think not only it is, but its been done before in GT PSP.

I think part of the problem though is that upgrading is allowed in GT6's career mode races. If they had more restrictions it would be more competitive. GT PSP had no upgrading and only basic tuning so it was much easier for PD to provide challenging AI because the situation was much more controlled.

I think another huge problem is the idiotic need to always have rolling starts.

I'm sick of the whole chasing the rabbit crap. In GT PSP, there were standing starts and it worked because the AI was fast. That's what the main series needs.

You simply can't have a good offline race IMO without standing starts and qualifying. If you have the current rolling start format, it doesn't matter what the AI does, you'll have to be 5 seconds/lap faster than the leader or you have no chance of winning which will be chase the rabbit no matter what the AI does.

Same with qualifying, which also works well in Grid Autosport IMO. I know from qualifying where I stand on the grid and what my realistic chances are for victory or a good finish. With GT allowing you to adjust your car, it makes all the more sense to qualify, but you should be able to get a feel for the AI difficulty settings and with your preferred setting, if your chosen car meets the regs, the field should be close. In other words if I normally play on the "hard" setting and it's a GT500 race and the regs are 502 hp, RH and 1175kgs, I should be able to choose a GT500 car and be on pace with those settings out of the box, give or take a second here or there. Likewise the same settings but the AI on Easy, or Beginner, or Villeneuve whatever the case may be.

Of course if someone wants to simply get through the race without a challenge that's their choice. They should be able to up the tires or HP or anything they like. The purpose isn't to make everyone have a competitive race, everyone should play the way they want to play, but the option for good race should be there for those that want it.

Standing starts or tight rolling start grids, qualifying and difficulty levels are a must for a good offline experience in any game.

 

[Johnnypenso]

double

 

[mr_serious]

I think part of the problem though is that upgrading is allowed in GT6's career mode races. If they had more restrictions it would be more competitive. GT PSP had no upgrading and only basic tuning so it was much easier for PD to provide challenging AI because the situation was much more controlled.

Shift2 allows you to upgrade your car, but it doesn't spoil the racing, because if you run an upgraded car the AI does too. There's no reason why upgrades should ruin an offline race. I have a GT 5 screenshot of the car in my sig leading a pack of veyrons. :/

 

[Zuku]

Shift2 allows you to upgrade your car, but it doesn't spoil the racing, because if you run an upgraded car the AI does too. There's no reason why upgrades should ruin an offline race. I have a GT 5 screenshot of the car in my sig leading a pack of veyrons. :/

It's not the fact you're leading the pack of veyrons it's the fact that eventually you may even lap them, and it still is the fact you're leading the pack of veyrons.

 

[TomBrady]

It's not the fact you're leading the pack of veyrons it's the fact that eventually you may even lap them, and it still is the fact you're leading the pack of veyrons.

Well look at the picture, it looks like London.

Obviously a Caterham is gonna beat Veyrons on that track

 

[mr_serious]

Well look at the picture, it looks like London.

Obviously a Caterham is gonna beat Veyrons on that track

No if you read what I said "I have a GT 5 screenshot of the car in my sig leading a pack of veyrons."

You'll understand that the sig pic is from a city course yes, but the pack of veyrons pic I have is Grand Valley or Deep Forest - I can't remember which.

 

[TomBrady]

No if you read what I said "I have a GT 5 screenshot of the car in my sig leading a pack of veyrons."

You'll understand that the sig pic is from a city course yes, but the pack of veyrons pic I have is Grand Valley or Deep Forest - I can't remember which.

Oh, well yea, GT6's AI is super slow. That is the biggest problem with them in my opinion. I don't know if you guys have noticed but the AI is still a big improvement over GT5. Not only do they have all the improvements the patches on GT5 introduced, like the AI being less likely to smash into the back of you if you stop dead on track, or the amount of aggresion they have in passing you but I've also noticed that they no longer are mistake free.

Everytime I do a seasonal event I see at least 1 car go off track during the race. Typically only 1 or 2 but even still, much more often than I ever saw in GT5. Unless they were driving Ruf Yellow Bird's

Still I'm sick of the chasing the rabbit garbage they put us through.

That's why I don't understand all the whining about GT PSP just because it didn't have a structured career mode. It was perfect for people who wanted great racing, and great car collecting. That's pretty much the reason I play Gran Turismo. To race and collect cars and GT PSP did it so well. GT PSP is almost singlehandedly responsible for getting me back into gaming in general.

 

[mr_serious]

I pretty much agree with everything you have said, especially the chase the rabbit (I say chase the pigeon referring to a cartoon called whacky races & its sequel "Chase the pigeon")

Except this bit...

... like the AI being less likely to smash into the back of you if you stop dead on track...

Would Alonso stop dead on the track? Would anyone? When someone does, in the case of an accident, there is rarely enough time to react on a race course unless it is a corner where you expect someone to be flying across the track (and there are plenty of them in the world) . I can forgive them missing a few edge cases, sadly they have the worst AI code in the world, ever. Edge cases aren't the problem.

I want difficulty modes & the AI to be racing their 🤬 off in medium / average setting. Easy mode can be GT style.

 

[mister dog]

Just heard someone say that "the AI are just placeholders" this morning, brightened up my day

 

[doyley101]

Just heard someone say that "the AI are just placeholders" this morning, brightened up my day

Everything in GT6 is a placeholder according to Kaz

 

[glassjaw]

Building AI that is intelligent, adaptive, and responds in context of the race conditions is challenging - but making the AI faster should be the least difficult thing in the world. If PD is unable to do the first, then at the very least they need to accomplish the second, and the sluggish pace and absolute idiocy of GT6's AI confuses the hell out of me for that reason. Standing starts and quicker computer-controlled cars would go a very long way. So too would evening out the playing field in terms of the types of cars that race together. There is no reason why a McLaren F1 should be in a race against an original GT40 race car, and yet that sort of thing is exactly what has plagued the series practically since it began.

 

[RUFin]

Maybe you are right but the big difference with Codies and PD is that Codies had great AI since TOCA on PSOne and PD had bad AI since Gran Turismo on PSOne. They both focus on something completely else. TOCA and GRID are focussing on a motorsport experience while Gran Turismo focusses on a "collecting cars" and "driving around" experience.

Many times truth is so simple,like this.

 

[Darragh]

I completely disagree. Grid Autosport has made me remember of how fast, but stupid codemasters AI can be. Constantly I'm being smashed into as if they don't even know I'm there. It's worse than GT. People whine about GT's AI, but at least they're not smashing into unless you're stopped on the track which happens less now anyways.

Plus, PD is capable of fast AI. GT PSP had the most challenging AI in the series and it didn't have the crazy rubber banding that GT1-3 had. If you and the S class AI had the same car, they were really tough to beat even on racing tires and it got worse on sports tires.

Part of it could be that you're trying to play a realistic racing game on a PSP or PS Vita, but there's still no doubt the AI was challenging.

PD is definitely capable of good AI. I think the AI in GT6 is good but it's too slow. If they just let use speed the AI up, I think it would be far better than Grid Autosport.

Maybe something like what Milestone has would be good. 10 levels of AI difficulty. The fastest being alien fast, the slowest being too slow even for noobs. That amount of scalability would be perfect.

I know it's such a cliché, but comparing GT and GAS is like chalk and cheese. There is no competition in GT, and that's that, nothing. Grid has everything in the AI that you would want, fast, aggressive, attacking and defending etc. If they ram into you on the very odd occasion, they ram into you. That's racing, much like real life. What's most impressive is the different driving styles of each character, not John Grealish and Ben Flootty.

Good AI, or else a thought on keeping 60 euro.

 

[John_Marsten]

I have to repeat that I haven't seen any games which have A.I. to cheer about. Every game which supposedly has awesome A.I. basically has cruise missiles that to one extent or other won't ram you too often. Games which have more aggressive A.I. will crash you around more than the bots in GT5 and 6. So for me, the only argument that makes sense is that games have polite, boring bots, or crash happy bots, and then there's Gran Turismo. .

Race 07 says hello.

It has some of the best AI of any racing game IMO. Always a blast to race against a full field, and scalable to your liking.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Race 07 says hello.

It has some of the best AI of any racing game IMO. Always a blast to race against a full field, and scalable to your liking.

Grid Autosport has terrific AI as well, and on the PS3. Because it's a simcade game with rivals they made a couple of other teams more aggressive than the rest so you need to always remain aware of where they are on the track. Take their AI model, remove the rival's aggressiveness and it would be absolutely perfect for the GT series. Of course TenD wouldn't like it because they'd just be "cruise missles"...you know...cars racing on the racing line that don't wander off that racing line every other corner and actually try to keep pace with you.