No wheel? Don't bother with the controller on this demo

[Tornado]

I certainly wouldn't like to see pad users victimised, but on the same token, I certainly wouldn't like to see things simplified for them either, particularly in terms of this competition.

Fixing the throttle wouldn't do that, though.

 

[Stevisiov]

Fixing the throttle wouldn't do that, though.

I have to question your perception of fixing in this scenario. I would be reluctant to agree that PD actively broke the throttle in attempt to force wheels upon people. Perhaps they thought a non linear throttle was better, I actually like the pad throttle system, to say its needs fixing is incongruous with my experiences.

 

[Pryor]

Its right the demo was set up the way it was, but its not like its going to be like this in the final game, the percentage of casual gamers to the hardcore is too much, it wouldn't make sense.

 

[Tornado]

I have to question your perception of fixing in this scenario. I would be reluctant to agree that PD actively broke the throttle in attempt to force wheels upon people.

I don't believe that either. But they changed it for some reason, and without knowing what that reason is it is hard for conspiracies to not start flying.

Perhaps they thought a non linear throttle was better, I actually like the pad throttle system, to say its needs fixing is incongruous with my experiences.

I've never, ever ever played a game before the GT5 Demo that didn't have linear throttle inputs for the analog controls. All the way back to GT2, and maybe even the first game, the analog controls had both throttle and brakes linear. Even not-really-driving-games like the GTA games had proper throttle controls. Even within the GT5 Demo itself, the steering wheel controls are linear.

Quite frankly, I see no reason to have changed it in the first place, and I'm at a loss to come up with an objective reason of how it would be better to have a parabolic throttle but then not have the brakes the same way. It simply makes no sense, and it is clearly causing problems for people who didn't have them in the series in the past. Surely if there were benefits for one there would be benefits for both. Particularly when every GT game since 4 has shown your exact throttle and braking force on screen as they occur.
Not to mention how, considering the PS3 actually has long-travel triggers, it is actually worse off than if they had done it way back in GT3.

tl:dr, it is a problem because it is internally inconsistent and it doesn't really make any sense even if it was.

 

[hambone8611]

weather or not this is corprate conspiracy i have no idea. but if you are that put off stay away from cable tv,cell phones,groceriey stores,banks. oh hell just move to an island and avoid civilazation altogether and that may not work but good luck.

 

[H20HYBRID_GT]

Really? I take it you work for PD then?

Funny you say/conspire that PD deliberately miscalculated the linearity of the L2/R2 triggers, when in fact, they aren't even the default buttons for throttle and brake to begin with

I didn't say anything about the triggers? Or conspiracy?
( although that's the only reason for the sudden change of controls that makes sense, it wasn't 'broke' in the Prologue demo... )
Didn't say anything about physics either? Hello?

All I'd ask for is linear sensitivity on all analogue inputs like in ALL* previous GT games or any other (modern) racing game i know of... that used to be the strength of (especially) GT! (*GT1 maybe the exeption)
The elitism shown by some members is really mindblowing.

 

[Joey D]

I also don't see how a video game must accommodate to all levels, this demo was primarily designed for GTAcademy, a process designed to find the most skilled drivers, its definitely not meant to be easy. Its locked onto professional physics with no driver aids available it pretty much tells you all you need to know about the difficulty requirements.

If you want to sell games and have people enjoy them, companies should be somewhat accommodating. Having it only hardcore will turn people off from the franchise, since a lot of people play games to escape reality. I play GT because I enjoy cars, racing, etc. If I'm not having fun with it then what's the point? Games are still entertainment devices whatever way you look at it.

And my worry is this is not just a GT Academy test, but a demo for the full game as well. Demos typically give you a taste of what the full game will be like. If this demo is anything like the actual game I don't want to buy it, and I find that a bit disheartening. Having the car almost uncontrollable for me isn't fun at all, in fact it's pretty frustrating.

Elitist? Yes, when it comes to REALISTIC physics I'd rather have more realistic physics which require a steering wheel to attain those last few tenths out of a given car/track combo, rather than simplified physics that help all players go the same speed regardless of the input device they use. After all, since its conception, GT has been labeled and intended as "the real driving simulator", not the "fun and easy driving game"

And this is what I hate about the GT fans, why should the game only cater to a small amount of people? It's one of best driving video game franchises (if not the best) on the market. Shouldn't fans of the driving/racing genre, no matter what their skill level, be allowed to enjoy it?

Will there be changeable physics levels? Probably, but I have no idea what they will feel like. For all anyone knows the standard physics level might be undriveable as well.

If you can't handle the realism, maybe GT (in its current state) isn't the game for you. 💡 I don't know why some of you think PD HAS to create a game that makes everyone happy. That in itself is a elitist train of thought, in thinking that PD should do everything in their power to make "ME" happy/competitive, because I can't obtain a steering wheel/pedal set for whatever reason (money, convenience, space, competitiveness, etc). Sorry, but that's just not the way life nor the World works.

The last four instalments of GT have been perfect fine with the controller, it is just with Prologue and now the demo it seems like they have drifted away towards that and have pushed people to get a very expensive wheel. I see no point in spending my money on another controller to play the game when my PS3 came with a very capable SIXAXIS controller which plays every other game just fine.

I'm just curious though, how in the world is that an elitist way of thinking? Game companies should design all games to be played with the controller the system came with. That just seems like common sense to me. Sure, put additional modes in the game which allow you to use other input methods, GT4 did a fine just with that, but the core design should be around the tools Sony provided you when you purchased the console.

And PD, along with every other game manufacture, should make a game that a majority of people want to play. This allows them to sell copies, make money, and stay around long enough to make additional games. Like I said if they wish to include additional levels of realism or whatever, that just makes more people happy, which sells more copies and make the company more money.

I don't care if I am competitive online or whatever either, between the punters, elitist, and just plan idiots I don't care to play online. But if the single player experience makes it overly difficult then the game is no longer enjoyable.

 

[Radracing]

Dose anyone know from the first GT Academy if any pad user actually made it to the finals? and if anyone did how well did they do if they got to drive a real car or cart?

 

[gt3killer]

I never felt any pressure from PD that I had to buy a wheel. To me it's given a must have for any sim racing game. I've been using the wheel since GT3. It's the same with fighting games, hardcore players will always prefer to use a proper joy stick.

 

[DrBoyton]

Anyone who wants to use a controller for GT5 should be able to do so. Just set the physics to "need fro speed" and you'll be fine. Those of us who like a realistic driving game can enjoy such, on "pro" physics, with our G25 or similar.

I can just imagine someone who is good enough with a controller in the TT demo making it all the way and scoring a race seat, and then, when inspecting the race modified 370Z they will be piloting, asking "erm... do you think you could remove the wheel and pedals, and I'll just control the car through two sticks with my thumbs, yeah?"

 

[trevisio]

Trevisio, quick question.......

How many pound have you spent in total on your PS3 (As in Console, games etc etc)??? .

£0.00

And how much is the DFGT in the UK? .

less than £100

Surely with 15yrs experience circuit racing, all the money you have burnt over the years doing that you could spare about $70 to get a DFGT and screw it onto your computer desk..

No, its all gone on the real racing:tup: Seriously, I could afford the DFGT, but I'm not going to buy it just because the software that controls the throttle for non-wheel users has been deliberately sabotaged.

But, keeping it absolutely real though now Trevisio...... this competition has been a massive ego buster for a hell of a lot of people here on GTP and all around the world..... myself included. Maybe it's time to just take off the rose coloured glasses and admit you just aren't fast enough, nor good enough to hang with the elite.

I won't know if I'm fast enough or good enough to hang with the elite here on GT5 unless I buy a wheel. I'm not doing that, as explained.

All I can say about this is that I'm good enough to at least "hang with the elite" on every other racing game I've ever played and everything I've raced for real. GT5 is the only exception and it has been identified, way before I mentioned it, that the software that controls the throttle for non-wheel users has been set up in such a way that it causes a significant performance disadvantage.

 

[Tornado]

It's the same with fighting games, hardcore players will always prefer to use a proper joy stick.

With a few notable exceptions, though, no fighting games are designed so its practically necessary to have one. No one is saying that the game isn't better/easier/faster with the wheel.

 

[gt3killer]

I understand people not wanting to buy additional hardware just to play a game, but at some point when your dealing with a game that is trying to achieve a sim like experience the controller will feel a little obsolete. I mean much respect to the guy's here using a PS controller. R1600Turbo uses a controller and I can't even come close to is time using G25 wheel.

I don't know cause I've never tried but does anyone use a controller when they play PC sim racing games? (I'm not trying to be a smart ass by asking that question.) I think half the fun with the wheel is to feel the FFB and actually having greater control of your steering and pedal inputs Personally I'm happy PD spent so much time dialing in the steering wheels for their games.

 

[Joey D]

I don't know cause I've never tried but does anyone use a controller when they play PC sim racing games? (I'm not trying to be a smart ass by asking that question.) I think half the fun with the wheel is to feel the FFB and actually having greater control of your steering and pedal inputs Personally I'm happy PD spent so much time dialing in the steering wheels for their games.

Not regularly but I do play Race 07 on the PC with a Logitech MOMO wheel. It's always a pain to set up the wheel though so I typically leave it in the closet buried under a bunch of stuff. Plus it never really felt correct to me so I don't like using it.

 

[Kilborn230]

Seriously, I could afford the DFGT, but I'm not going to buy it just because the software that controls the throttle for non-wheel users has been deliberately sabotaged.

Then buy it for the experience if you can afford it, please do yourself a favour! If you don't want a DFGT because it may give PD a few extra bucks then buy a G25/G27, they're worth the money. This Sixaxis controller problem should not be a problem in GT5 with all the driving aids being adjustable and such. If it is still a problem then i will, maybe , agree with you that PD has some sort of conspiracy up their sleeve.

But like a previous poster stated, this Time Trial is for competitive purposes to become a real track driver.

 

[Radracing]

£0.00



less than £100



No, its all gone on the real racing:tup: Seriously, I could afford the DFGT, but I'm not going to buy it just because the software that controls the throttle for non-wheel users has been deliberately sabotaged.



I won't know if I'm fast enough or good enough to hang with the elite here on GT5 unless I buy a wheel. I'm not doing that, as explained.

That just sounds so cheap considering a GT wheel would cost less than one high performance tire. If you were racing in your "REAL RACE CAR" and they required only a particular brand tire to qualify for a race and you owned a different set of tires. You would be too cheap to spring for the required tires and scream "SABOTAGE!"

You are refusing to buy a wheel or a PS3 because of the deliberate unfairness? You can bye a PSP and GT5 Mobile and have fairness if you want.

I really think PD did this so as to qualify potential winners in the competition for the GT Academy that uses an actual wheel not a pad. Even though I think in the full game it will be more fair to pad or wheel in non Proffesional mode. So if you don't need GT Academy or the experience of a driving sim that will help improve your real race driving then don't. You sure are entitled to your own opinion and free not to buy a PS3 or a wheel. Enjoy your "REAL RACE CAR"

I'm sure a lot of guys who invested in a wheel just to experience a real driving sim would be disapointed too if they got their butt's whooped all the time by pad users. Even if we would apply it in a real world senario knowing that the guy with the pad can't translate his skill in the game with a real car because of his steering wheel skills. So my opinion is if a guy is good with a wheel in the game he should be good with a real car with a wheel but not so sure about a guy with a controller translating too a real car even if he is really good in a GT game.

 

[Tornado]

That just sounds so cheap considering a GT wheel would cost less than one high performance tire. If you were racing in your "REAL RACE CAR" and they required only a particular brand tire to qualify for a race and you owned a different set of tires. You would be too cheap to spring for the required tires and scream "SABOTAGE!"

That analogy doesn't compare in the slightest.

I really think PD did this so as to qualify potential winners in the competition for the GT Academy that uses an actual wheel not a pad.

That could be the case if it were not also that way in GT5.

I'm sure a lot of guys who invested in a wheel just to experience a real driving sim would be disapointed too if they got their butt's whooped all the time by pad users. Even if we would apply it in a real world senario knowing that the guy with the pad can't translate his skill in the game with a real car because of his steering wheel skills.

I'm sure that almost everyone who owns a PS3 would be rather pissed that the DS3 controls have been gimped in order to artificially raise the abilities of those who bought wheels. Quite frankly, if the people who own wheels are getting beaten by people with gamepads, perhaps they should raise their own skills instead of calling for those who play with pads to be nerfed.

 

[OutlawQuadrnt]

Since the throttle issue was in Prologue, I really don't see any merit in this conspiracy theory. Besides, I'm not sure racing games are popular enough that they can be like Rock Band and all but require someone to get an accessory to play the game.

It's a moot point in my case because I already have a wheel. Only problem is that I really don't have a lot of room to set it up properly right now. Believe me, I'll be using the wheel once I move somewhere where I do have the room to set it up properly.

However, that still doesn't mean that this issue with the throttle should not be ignored. Why change something that wasn't broken to begin with? Why not let users choose between a linear throttle and a parabolic one? I'm not a fool and think I can beat the best times with a DS3 but I want to at least put up a decent effort. This change seems to be tailored to make it easier for the less experienced but even if that's the case, I don't see why players can be given the option between a parabolic and a linear throttle.

 

[arora]

I was going to bring that up earlier but forgot ^

I've not played with it much but NFS shift has a few options like that, I was surprised how different my wheel setting where vs. controller settings. Oh and I can play that game better with the pad then wheel, go figure.

 

[OutlawQuadrnt]

I was going to bring that up earlier but forgot ^

I've not played with it much but NFS shift has a few options like that, I was surprised how different my wheel setting where vs. controller settings. Oh and I can play that game better with the pad then wheel, go figure.

Last NFS game I played was Hot Pursuit 2 and there was really no need for a wheel back then so I'm not surprised.

Now that I think about it, I remember GT2 had some analog setting you could tinker with so I popped GT2 in my PS3 and...

...yes, it does!

Unfortunately, I can't see the settings even after I switch the controller to analog mode so I don't know what they do. Rats!

 

[Radracing]

That analogy doesn't compare in the slightest.

It all depends on how you look at it really.

That could be the case if it were not also that way in GT5.

I just tried GT5Prolouge and it's linear with the controller. If youre talking about GT5 we don't know yet.

I'm sure that almost everyone who owns a PS3 would be rather pissed that the DS3 controls have been gimped in order to artificially raise the abilities of those who bought wheels. Quite frankly, if the people who own wheels are getting beaten by people with gamepads, perhaps they should raise their own skills instead of calling for those who play with pads to be nerfed.

Maybe its the other way around. Maybe the controllers were artificially raised in the past and now they are removing the advantage for the controller user. It would be hard to gauge exactly. But like the top controller users saying its still possible to be fast but you have to be really good to do it. So who is to say except PD since they are developing the game. We can bitch and moan about it but if they are developing a game to develope gamers to real drivers then it's really their call as to who should be at the advantage. Because we certainly can't gauge who the real better driver is when we are just driving a simulation game by pad or wheel.

I was going to bring that up earlier but forgot ^

I've not played with it much but NFS shift has a few options like that, I was surprised how different my wheel setting where vs. controller settings. Oh and I can play that game better with the pad then wheel, go figure.

So there you have it. Who's to say really who has or had the advantage in the past or present versions so just because it's harder now to compete with a pad dose not mean an unfair advantage. It just depends on who and what they are developing the game for.

 

[gt3killer]

I think with gamepad controller you have to be near perfect with all your inputs in order to be fast in GT5 TT demo. It's possible cause there are guys on this forum who use controller. But really, it comes down to who is willing take the extra steps just to be competitive. If it's not that important then of course why spend money on a wheel.

I think you should try to borrow one from a friend and just try it.

 

[Bones Brigade]

It's probably been said, but this is a demo. They want you to play it so you buy the game. When you buy the game you will have the ability to alter the gameplay to make it easier with a controller.

/corporate conspiracy.

They could have implemented a complicated clutch and shifting that could only be done smoothly on the G25/G27, thus forcing everyone to spend $250 rather than $100 on a DFGT in order to be competitive. But they didn't.

 

[Tornado]

I just tried GT5Prolouge and it's linear with the controller. If youre talking about GT5 we don't know yet.

Again, I can't confirm, but there are multiple people both in this thread and the other one who have said that the original GT5 demo had different throttle modulation than the retail version, with the original demo having linear and retail having this parabolic nonsense.

They could have implemented a complicated clutch and shifting that could only be done smoothly on the G25/G27, thus forcing everyone to spend $250 rather than $100 on a DFGT in order to be competitive. But they didn't.

Not to fan the flames of this PD/Logitech conspiracy, but this isn't the first time that they have done something along these lines so the idea isn't completely bonkers (just mostly bonkers). Both GT3 and GT4 weren't much different in regards to "forcing" (for lack of a better term) Logitech wheels on the players.

Now that I think about it, I remember GT2 had some analog setting you could tinker with so I popped GT2 in my PS3 and...

...yes, it does!

Unfortunately, I can't see the settings even after I switch the controller to analog mode so I don't know what they do. Rats!

That is for neGcon support.

 

[arora]

but this isn't the first time that they have done something along these lines so the idea isn't completely bonkers (just mostly bonkers). Both GT3 and GT4 weren't much different in regards to "forcing" (for lack of a better term) Logitech wheels on the players.

It is true that gt3 and gt4 both were released with a logitec wheel in mind if I remember right. A friend gave me the driving force ffb one when I first bought a ps2 and gt3, was it the dfp that came out in conjuction with gt4? However that stuff went we know that dfgt was designed with gt5p in mind so yeah that's been going on forever.

I never really tried very hard with the driving force wheel in gt3 as I was way faster with the ds2. Likewise I only tried it a few times with gt4(never bought a dfp). I did however go back to gt4 after I bought a dfgt and I can still say I'm so much better with the ds2 it's just silly.

Maybe the controllers were artificially raised in the past and now they are removing the advantage for the controller user. It would be hard to gauge exactly. But like the top controller users saying its still possible to be fast but you have to be really good to do it.

This. Sort of, I'm of the opinion that as the game progresses it's just not realistic to use a controller any longer. Gt5p is the first game in the series I'm faster with the wheel then pad. That may just be me though as others contend you can still be real good with the ds3, maybe it's just not for me any longer.

 

[Raitziger]

People are buying +$2000 TVs and 300-600$ PS3 and they still complain that steering wheel for $100 is some corporate conspiracy Some people bought a good wheel for PS2 and now that same wheel works fine on PS3. So that is only $50 of investment per generation

 

[Tornado]

This. Sort of, I'm of the opinion that as the game progresses it's just not realistic to use a controller any longer. Gt5p is the first game in the series I'm faster with the wheel then pad. That may just be me though as others contend you can still be real good with the ds3, maybe it's just not for me any longer.

I agree that one will probably be faster in GT5 final with a wheel than a pad. I've played other racing games that gave me the same conclusion (man, you wouldn't believe how bad I was at Enthusia with the DS2). That doesn't mean that the apparent "gimping" (for lack of a better word) of pad controls is acceptable.

 

[arora]

That doesn't mean that the apparent "gimping" (for lack of a better word) of pad controls is acceptable.

That is why I mentioned shift's ability to 'tune up' the pad 👍 I'd rather play with a controller most of the time, or at least be able to switch back and forth without a total meltdown.

 

[TrievelA7X]

Hi all,

Apologies for being negative, but I'm more than a little annoyed at the blatant favouritism for wheel users in this supposedly fair competition. I know its already been mentioned, but I have to post my thoughts because its driving me mad and has totally put me off buying a PS3 for GT5 whenever its finally released (I'm borrowing my mates PS3 at the moment).

Specifically, this GT Academy demo is the first driving game I've ever played where the joypad controller is at a massive disadvantage compared to a steering wheel, because the throttle sensitivity setup for the controller is non-linear, consistent times are possible but they're always slower than with the wheel, because the car will always slide on the corner exit like its on ice!The last 25% of throttle pedal travel is uncontrollable and feels random. Why this is the case when the brake sensitivity is perfectly linear on the controller, I don't know, I can only guess that once again big business has ruined the fun because it wants to sell more steering wheels. I'm not falling for that one. How ridiculous to exclude some really quick drivers from getting a good time just because they don't have a wheel.

I used to enjoy playing lots of GT4, GT3, GT2 and GT on PS2 and was in the WRS for a while (top 10 time in the qualifier) but after the third PS2s disc drive failed out of warranty, I bought an XBOX for RACE Pro, which is fantastic for online racing on equal terms with the controller.

The best I can do is 1:38.2 in the tuned car and 1:52.5 in the traction control enforced standard one. Its embarrassing but I know why I'm off the pace - I don't want to give the companies behind this enterprise any of my money just because they cynically bugged this demo for non wheel users.

It seems big business has also spoiled the other major racing game releases this year too - Forza3 has no public custom lobbies for online racing (MSoft order to turn10) and NFS:Shift was an aracady crashfest (EA demand to SMS). Even RACE Pro was rushed out by the publisher, Atari, way before the developer, Simbin, were ready (all bugs nearly fixed with free patches).

oops I went off topic there sorry, but this big business ruining our games theme is playing on my mind.

Happy New Year

I completely agree.
It's mentionable that this problem didn't exist for GT1,2,3, or 4.
But in GT5P, and this demo, it's big-time. Not to mention the great accuracy I could use the pressure sensitive buttons for GT4, which also suck for GT5P and TT.
Now I've been told the PS3 doesn't have pressure sensitive buttons, but anyone who's tried it can tell that's BS. They just don't work worth a damn in the new GT games.

People are buying +$2000 TVs and 300-600$ PS3 and they still complain that steering wheel for $100 is some corporate conspiracy Some people bought a good wheel for PS2 and now that same wheel works fine on PS3. So that is only $50 of investment per generation

Okay, do you really think it's the people spending 2500$ on a TV and PS3 that are complaining?
Or do you think it's the people who spent 400$ for a PS3, and 0$ for a TV that are complaining?

I would be the latter. And yes, I will buy a wheel, simply because I want one, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't fix the analog usage for controllers.
IF it is intentional, it may very well be a fatal flaw for the GT series, as I believe it to be one of the reasons many new players, or just general/casual players are having such difficulty.

 

[kayman]

Its not deliberately done to tone down the controller, but rather to make controller inputs more "lifelike".

Otherwise you could go lock to lock in no time at all or have unrealistic throttle or brake inputs.

The point of this demo is to find a quick driver to drive a real car for the purposes of GT Academy Sony have noted several times (even on the news page of this website), that this is the ONLY purpose for this demo.

Hence Professional Physics and limited use of traction control and other aids.