No wheel? Don't bother with the controller on this demo

[trevisio]

I can understand the simple logic that leads some to say that the wheel users have been handed an advantage because some GT Academy decison maker has decided that these folk will naturally have the better chance of translating "motor skills" from the demo to the GT Academy anyway. This sounds like a great argument for deliberately spangling the controller setup to me if it were true. Which it isn't.

The transaltion from simulation to reality is not like that. If someone is a quick driver on a controller in the demo, they will still be quick in the real car and have no disadvantage in comparison to wheel users. Sure, using a wheel in the demo might increase the drivers confidence in the real car, if he places significance on the fact he's used to using a wheel, but its only going to be a psychological advantage if the controller user is convinced he's at a disadvantage in the real car because he didn't use a wheel in the demo.

In my opinion anyone that dedicated and skillful to qualify top 20 in their country using the controller should kick butt in the real GT Academy as he will no longer be at a significant disadvantage.

Its not deliberately done to tone down the controller, but rather to make controller inputs more "lifelike".

How do you know that? What car have you driven in real life where the last 25% of throttle movement is instantaneously 2 or 3 times more sensitive than the first 50% of pedal travel?

The point of this demo is to find a quick driver to drive a real car for the purposes of GT Academy Sony have noted several times (even on the news page of this website), that this is the ONLY purpose for this demo.

Hence Professional Physics and limited use of traction control and other aids.

No probs with pro physics and I wish the TCS could be turned off for controller users in the standard car time trial.

As to the purpose of the demo, it is a brilliant idea and I admire GT Academy for the concept, clearly I'm just fed up with the throttle software setup on the controller, that is my only issue with it. Otherwise its great.👍

 

[kayman]

How do you know that? What car have you driven in real life where the last 25% of throttle movement is instantaneously 2 or 3 times more sensitive than the first 50% of pedal travel?

What car have you driven in real life with a joystick?

Or even better, what car have you driven where the throttle is controlled by your fingers?

I seriously doubt a company like Polyphony would sabotage there own demo when they are in the business of making the best sim available on console.

In my opinion anyone that dedicated and skillful to qualify top 20 in their country using the controller should kick butt in the real GT Academy as he will no longer be at a significant disadvantage.

If you have a look at controller to wheel testimonials on this site you will note that it takes more than just the one day for the quick controller drivers to match there times with their steering wheel. For someone to place in the top 20 without having ever used a wheel before, and then being force to use it in GT Academy National Finals, would have a very hard task pushing the car to the limit straight away.

 

[Stotty]

In my opinion anyone that dedicated and skillful to qualify top 20 in their country using the controller should kick butt in the real GT Academy as he will no longer be at a significant disadvantage.

Being quick in the game does not automatically make you a quick driver in real life - no matter if you use a wheel or a controller.

There's no guarentee that people like Dan, Timo, Ramon, MAY, TA etc (a few of the super fast guys on here) will neccessarily be the fastest in a real car... and in any case, PS/Sony are looking for a racing driver, not a one lap specialist, and racing requires an additional skill set to just being fast.

 

[Reneetje]

Another important factor will be the fysical condition of the guys who are going to drive the real cars. You need to be superfit to race a car for one or more hours.

 

[GTP_rpm]

Do you think staggering throttle input in a car is something new?

For example, on racing cars you can indeed program a wet weather throttle control so that it's different from a dry weather map. We even did this in Radio Control car racing my friend.

Another example, could be a RenaulSport Clio with the early twin-stage throttle body. The final 10% of the throttle would open up another butterfly in the throttle body, which would give you more power in that final 10% range, than any other 10% across the map and this is on a cable controlled throttle

The biggest reason why a DS3 / sixaxis is slower, is because you haven't got FFB. You have even less of a feel for the car and you're embarrasing yourself by continuing to feel bitter that you're a) slow at this game and b) a rubbish racing driver in real life.

/thread.

 

[trevisio]

Do you think staggering throttle input in a car is something new?/

Of course staggering throttle/throttle maps aren't new
I don't see how that links in with issue of silly software on the throttle control in this demo??

The biggest reason why a DS3 / sixaxis is slower, is because you haven't got FFB.

Wrong. I even turn off the vibration on the controller as it gives me RSI. This thread is about 1 thing - plain and simple - the spangled software programming the throttle for non wheel users

you're embarrasing yourself by continuing to feel bitter that you're a) slow at this game and b) a rubbish racing driver in real life. .

Well that is a shocking thing to write seeing as you have absolutely no idea what I have achieved in real life racing and indeed in sim racing in every game except GT5, where the spangled software programming the throttle for non wheel users creates a significant unfair disadvantage

/thread.

So you are in charge of this thread and end it by insulting me without actually knowing anything about me? Well done great example for the rest of us.

 

[MartyParty]

If you are suffering from RSI using the controller, I would really recommend you to buy a wheel... But don't take my word for it, listen to what one of the multi-billion-dollar companies has to say about RSI and ergonomics.

 

[Radracing]

Not to fan the flames of this PD/Logitech conspiracy, but this isn't the first time that they have done something along these lines so the idea isn't completely bonkers (just mostly bonkers). Both GT3 and GT4 weren't much different in regards to "forcing" (for lack of a better term) Logitech wheels on the players.

Nobody is forcing anybody to buy anything. The GT game, a PS3, a wheel, a high definition TV, a SIM frame or anything else. We all buy those things free and willingly. So as to your opinion you are free not to buy it too. I don't see them putting a gun to your head. As to gimping, fixing, sabotageing or what ever word you want to use it really still PD's call. But we still don't have the final GT5 game to see exactly what the pad controller is going to be like.

So it's really just trying to fan the flame or just plain complaining, whining, crying, moaning or whatever because you think you have an unfair advantage with the wheel. I heard people complain the other way around too when wheel users actually get beaten by more pad users at a LAN meet with GT4. So its really hard to say who's got the real advantage.

 

[Raitziger]

Okay, do you really think it's the people spending 2500$ on a TV and PS3 that are complaining?
Or do you think it's the people who spent 400$ for a PS3, and 0$ for a TV that are complaining?

The guy said he has been racing IRL for 15 years and won championships so assumed that he has a HDTV at least. And i did not think that anybody would want buy a expensive HD system and use it in SDTV.(PS2 is very good for that)

There has been many threads about the throttle problem and nobody really made any noise about this in press or anywhere when prologue came out. It is very hard to contact PD about any issues in their games and i think full game will have sadly still this feature.

 

[balang_479]

Of course staggering throttle/throttle maps aren't new
I don't see how that links in with issue of silly software on the throttle control in this demo??



Wrong. I even turn off the vibration on the controller as it gives me RSI. This thread is about 1 thing - plain and simple - the spangled software programming the throttle for non wheel users




Well that is a shocking thing to write seeing as you have absolutely no idea what I have achieved in real life racing and indeed in sim racing in every game except GT5, where the spangled software programming the throttle for non wheel users creates a significant unfair disadvantage




So you are in charge of this thread and end it by insulting me without actually knowing anything about me? Well done great example for the rest of us.

So what sort of racing experience do you have in real life? with proof of course... just interested.

 

[Lernatix]

I was just pissed that I couldn't drift that standard car.
I couldn't be bothered moving my wheel from the PC
to the station just for a few smoke filled laps.
To hell with demo's prologues and videos I just
want the game I wanted 3 years ago FFS!

 

[reaperman]

A good controller player is probably still going to win out over whoever he plays in an online racing grid no matter what they're using. So what if they're not quite the fastest in the world as long as you win against who's at the track that day? I guess super time trialer lovers care, but the vast majority of them *want* wheels, and anything else that could possibly give a slight advantage.

This is no different than, say FPS games where everybody does whatever they can to get an edge. like purchasing special controllers, modding a controller, or placing a quick-sighting dot on the tv itself--just to name a few things. At the 'best in the world' level, there gets to be a point where cost becomes no object.

and if it helps, I'm a g25 user, and the OP sounds faster than me--so it's not like it's an instant win thing. I just know that in online wheel to wheel racing, I've got the consistant lap times to put a serious hurting on whichever dozen random folks happen across me. I probably won't win them all with my speed, but in such a small group I'll be a competitor. Also, I think a bit of car tuning would go a long way in reducing the slide on corner exit mentioned in the first post.

 

[emohare7]

I agree with trevisio at the top. This is not a test of great drivers, its a test of the wallet. I race with a small group in kent, and being that i live and drive around london, i sometimes drive in tight areas at incredible speeds. I shall not give the digits, as i dont want to be researched by the met police. I can take roundabouts in the WET at 2x the speed anyone else would feel comfortable in, and yet i can keep the car balanced and steady (at which point even most police drivers would be on the kerb). Not trying to brag, but just to show how incompetent the current gt5 time trial is at finding REAL race drivers. I play the time trial with a controller, and yes it is incredibly frustrating. I know what to do to get round that turn at the speed im approaching, but the car does its own thing. Its like driving in snowy/icy conditions, when navigating turns. My friend who went from 1.52 to 1.38 after switching to steering wheel says its a big difference, but why the HECK shud i clunk up my living room with pedal and wheel set, just to play a console in my living room. just like 'trevisio' i have to say, IM SORRY, BUT IM NOT FALLING FOR THIS MARKETING SCAM. if i can't play well without the use of a steering wheel, then stuff it. Me and my steering wheel part once i lock the car, i dont want a steering wheel in my living room (How big do they think the average BRITISH house is, to be filling it up with bulky ps3 accesories.

PS: Iv also played NFS Shift - its so rubbish & unrealistic, i had to sell it few days after i bought it. The old need for speed series were fantastic, but recently i dont know whats going on with their physics developers, they try to be what the're not so badly, the **** up.

If you want good online racing game that will not cost you an arm & leg to play it properly, get GTA IV on ps3. its fantastic, fun and realistic, and there's no need to purchase a steering wheel.

SO AGAIN, I'LL SAY: THE GT5 TIME TRIAL IS 'GREATLY' BIASED IN FAVOUR OF STEERING WHEEL PLAYERS, AND IF THE FULL GAME IS GOING TO BE LIKE THIS, IM NOT BUYING IT - i will rent it from blockbusters, then return it in disgust, rather than give polyphony my £50

 

[Tornado]

Nobody is forcing anybody to buy anything.

If the controls continue to be set up the way they are now in the final game, I'd argue against that point. I'm able to look the other way under the (still patently unfair) reasoning that it may be demo only. But, again, it isn't as if this is the first time PD have done something similar.

As to gimping, fixing, sabotageing or what ever word you want to use it really still PD's call.

Yes it is. It is also my call to say how stupid it is to have the throttle controls the way they currently are.

But we still don't have the final GT5 game to see exactly what the pad controller is going to be like.

Considering its been a seemingly intentional problem for nearly a year and a half now, I'm not particularly confident that they will fix it. You are correct, however.

 

[ChadSpeed]

Yes, because I'm actually capable of realizing that a hand held controller is a FAR less realistic and accurate input device than a steering wheel. I'm simply not ignorant to realism, which is Kaz' aim for the GT series. I take it Kaz should apologize for making the physics 10 fold better since the days of GT4, when a controller user wasn't at much of a disadvantage to a wheel user due to unrealistic/easy physics.

I was able to do fairly well with the 6-axis in Prologue, but clearly realized with time that a wheel was needed to achieve the fine input accuracy necesary to achieve world class lap times.

I agree with your overall statement....but there is far to much sensitivity in the controller. With the stick barely pushed up at all the on screen indicator shows 1/3rd of throttle applied and the motor is bouncing off the rev limiter?!? The on screen indicator shows full throttle at about 80% of your sticks full movement. I also noticed this same trend now with the steering getting the full 2.5 turns at about half of the sticks travel, a change from GT5P, it takes hours of practice before you can smoothly turn in and out with a control, but its unnecessary imo. If we could just adjust sensitivity it could surely solve some issues. TURN 10 did a fantastic job with its controller sensitivity, even though the wheel users can achieve faster times in my experience, in an online race it a toss up, since a controller user can actually have similar subtle inputs to steering and throttle that we don't get in this TT demo. If the full GT5 is like this I'm really considering bypassing it entirely and I've been playing since GT1. Its not that I'm anti wheel, but with two small children I have money to spend elsewhere, and no room for a cockpit, after all its a game, as with all game I play recreationally for fun.👍

 

[Bones Brigade]

I agree with trevisio at the top. This is not a test of great drivers, its a test of the wallet. I race with a small group in kent, and being that i live and drive around london, i sometimes drive in tight areas at incredible speeds. I shall not give the digits, as i dont want to be researched by the met police. I can take roundabouts in the WET at 2x the speed anyone else would feel comfortable in, and yet i can keep the car balanced and steady (at which point even most police drivers would be on the kerb).

PS: Iv also played NFS Shift - its so rubbish & unrealistic, i had to sell it few days after i bought it. The old need for speed series were fantastic, but recently i dont know whats going on with their physics developers, they try to be what the're not so badly, the **** up.

If you want good online racing game that will not cost you an arm & leg to play it properly, get GTA IV on ps3. its fantastic, fun and realistic, and there's no need to purchase a steering wheel.

Say what?


(Yeah yeah, don't feed the trolls...)

 

[cucpake2]

I'm a wheel user. I went to my friend's house and use a joypad for 10 laps and I manage a time of 1 sec off my record. I think joypad has its advantages too.

 

[jedaye]

Another complaint thread? But I do agree with you, controller users, especially d-pad users, are heavily disadvantaged in this demo.

 

[fasj6418]

I agree, pad users have abosolutely no chance in this demo, but in my opinion, this is not at all bad.

The more realistic the game gets, the harder it is on the pad.

I got a wheel after years suffering on OLR with the dualshock.

I guess it's a situation where you can't please everyone, that's why the final game will have standard physics for pad users.

Professional mode is hard, and is tailored to the wheel. Unless you have surgeon like precision with your fingers, and if you have that, you might have a shot with the pad.

Sorry if i was rude, but IMO, the game is much, much more realistic now, which is good.

 

[gtgun]

The track layout is what matters.there will be tracks where the controller is faster.In hard s turns(monaco).You will never be able to countersteer so fast like with the controller.

 

[profi]

There is NO EXCUSE for making the sixaxis / DS3 throttle control non-linear !

And to all the "wheelers" who respond "go get a wheel" I`d Like to say:
What if PD makes the Pedal of your wheels non-linear and the pad linear ?

..would you be happy to hear : "Go get a pad if you want to be competitive" ?

 

[Dynablaster]

To me it's not about whats better in terms of lap times. You are way better than my times and I use the wheel. Its about FUN. Honestly, everyone that has tried to drive GT TT with a wheel, can't and won't go back.

GT5 is going to be a MASSIVE game that will be played for years. Investing into DFGT is a sure hit and you won't regret it. Its not like they are forcing you, GT5 will have easier modes of play but you will never EXPERIENCE the full package without the wheel. Its not PDs decision, its just the way it is. Just like with HDTV. Who is forcing you to buy an HDTV? No one. YOU want a better experience for yourself. Same thing with a wheel.

Again, I will repeat, if you like GT5, why not just buy the wheel?

 

[shirakawaa]

Disadvantages of the controller over a wheel:

- The throttle control is not linear.
- Brake and throttle controls reach maximum software input before the maximum possible hardware input. This causes confusion and reduces control.
- Brake and throttle do not react immediately to the player input, depending on the input speed. This causes the player to lose time, especially for braking (try slamming the brakes: a few instants will pass before the maximum input is reached, like if some sort of reverse traction control was in act).
- In normal driving conditions, the steering control does not react immediately to the player input, depending on the input amount (this is probably to simulate the efforts of the driver in turning the wheel).

Depending on your point of view:

- In normal conditions, the steering angle is adjusted depending on the vehicle speed (kind of an automatic BMW active steering control) to compensate for the reduced controller input range.

Advantages of the controller over a wheel:

- In case of oversteer, the maximum steering angle is increased to the optimum value (regardless of the vehicle speed) and steering turning speed is greatly increased in order to provide good oversteer control. The turning speed is increased to a point that doing the same with a wheel would be physically impossible. This is big advantage.

 

[Blitz187]

I havent read the whole thread... but isnt it true that the next round everyone is forced to play with a wheel ANYWAY? So if you qualified with a controller, youre going to have to use a wheel in the next round if you make it. Which again is a disadvantage since you have no experience with a wheel... Will you complain and moan then as well that you cant have you trusted controller? Or you make it to the final and then ask the instructor while youre sitting in a GTR at Silverstone... "Where's the controller?" Cars are meant to be driven with steering wheels so its only logical that a wheel is just better equipment for this contest. Also a decent wheel doesnt cost a fortune either.... You dont need a G25 or G27 to be competitive... Just check Ebay for a DFP or DFGT.... they work just fine... Or dont...

 

[Hypo_Pylon]

Good post Blitz187.


And those of you complaining you don't have the space for a wheel, check out the Wheelstand Pro

 

[Jack]

everyone is forced to play with a wheel ANYWAY? So if you qualified with a controller, youre going to have to use a wheel in the next round if you make it.

Question: How do you know you have to play with a wheel? Nobody has made it into the next round using a pad before (that I'm aware), so how do you know they are forced into using a wheel?

 

[nicraM]

Question: How do you know you have to play with a wheel? Nobody has made it into the next round using a pad before (that I'm aware), so how do you know they are forced into using a wheel?

Well, for one thing, if someone makes it into the finals with a pad(hypothetically), I doubt they'll be modding the 370 to run with a dualshock instead of a wheel.

 

[Jack]

Well, for one thing, if someone makes it into the finals with a pad(hypothetically), I doubt they'll be modding the 370 to run with a dualshock instead of a wheel.

First you would have to beat everyone at the nationals. If you did manage that then you would be on a level playing field. GT teaches the basics. Lines, apexs, braking zones, not talent in real life

 

[TokyoDrift]

..would you be happy to hear : "Go get a pad if you want to be competitive" ?

I'm sure they would not be bothered to hear it, because if they have a PS3, they have a pad...

The best I can do is 1:38.2 in the tuned car and 1:52.5 in the traction control enforced standard one. Its embarrassing but I know why I'm off the pace - I don't want to give the companies behind this enterprise any of my money just because they cynically bugged this demo for non wheel users.

If you are hitting 1:38.x with a pad, you are actually doing very well, regardless of where that puts you in the world. I think you need to come back down to planet Earth and simply accept that there are people out there better than you. Yes, the fastest times are with wheels, but there are still people out there doing very fast times with a pad. Fast times that takes skill, and lots and lots of practice. Just buying a wheel does not guarantee you will be faster, and if anything, might make you quite a lot slower until you get used to the wheel.

One thing this demo has done is put people in their place. I can only just crack the low 1:39s, and I'm at my limit with my racing skills and pad control. I'm fine with that. I don't have the time or enthusiasm to bother getting any faster, but will not be disadvantaged at all when it comes to enjoying the full game.

 

[nicraM]

First you would have to beat everyone at the nationals. If you did manage that then you would be on a level playing field. GT teaches the basics. Lines, apexs, braking zones, not talent in real life

I couldn't agree more.

That said some peeps one this thread are overly dramatic. Maybe you can win with the controller, maybe you cant, but your not going to magically cut a few seconds out of your time by switching to a wheel. When I remapped my gas and brake to the triggers and put a bit of time into getting used to it i started posting times in line with my wheel times.

Maybe a bit more time practicing and a bit less time bitching/cooking up excuses would net them better results?