North Korea Problems: President Clinton in Pyongyang

[///M-Spec]

While I realise that ledhed was joking, using a nuclear weapon would be just a little bit more extreme than botching a political assassination (which I'm sure would happen) or invading some other country. Especially in that region of the world.

Certainly, it would be... Though I'm not sure what it has to do with the section of post you quoted.

Any military action, whether it is 'light', such as a cruise missle attack against North Korea's reactors, right up the spectrum to 'catastrophic' such as a ballistic missile strike would be unilateral and premature at this point.

The DPRK would view taking out our buddy Kim Jong worse than if we nuked one of their cities. That would instantly trigger a war that would put lives of millions of South Koreans living along the DMZ at grave risk.

No thats not what I meant at all.

I meant that if whats comin out in the media is true america should have bumped him off a long time ago, before letting it get to this stage, especially if they are so worried about this.

Why? So you can complain about how the US brutally murders people who don't "do or agree with everything the US says"? Gimme a break.

Any attempt, successful or not, at Kim Jong Il's life would result in war on the Korean Peninsula. The DPRK keeps several thousand artillery peices along the DMZ (over 8,000 last I read). Experts also believe that one of every four rounds is a chem round.

That would mean that if the US caused a war, if would cause Seoul, population 10 million+, to be reduced to rubble and everyone who wasn't outright killed by blast effect or falling rubble to be subject to mustard, hydrogen cyanide, sarin and god knows what else.

Advocating THAT course of action, you then have the nerve to sanctimoniously criticize the US for acting like a bully. Really. You are some peice of work.

However we might never have been in this mess in the first place if america didnt squeeze them so much, and its the hard right wing attitude which I personally would call extremism in its own right that forces nations such as korea and iran to feel the need to develop these weapons to protect themselves.

You're right. Any nation should do whatever it needs to do in order to feel safe. That's why you're such a big fan of the Iraq invasion, isn't it? Hope you don't mind the NSA reading your email.. after all, it makes Americans feel safe.

Ledhead keeps bringin up the agreement with clinton and the 90's but obviously he doesnt want to or hasnt delved a bit deeper and further back into history to maybe see why some would argue north koreas actions are necessary.

History is good. Let's start from the begining of the conflict and work our way up from there.

Please tell us why it was nessesary for North Korea to invade the south in June 1950.

I find your characterization that everything the DPRK does is reasonable, while everything the US does is simple 'bullying' (and thus, unreasonable) uninformed and faintly ludicrous.

People right now are saying the whole world are condemming north korea, but I can assure that is not the truth, there are plenty of people out there other than the north koreans celebrating this achievement.

Why don't you get the opinions of the people to whom this matters the most, such as South Koreans?


M

 

[ledhed]

People right now are saying the whole world are condemning north Korea, but I can assure that is not the truth, there are plenty of people out there other than the north Koreans celebrating this achievement.

I work with the mentally ill and clinically insane....I only have maybe three so far that may agree with you.
They are NUTS and think NK is a bad deal.....


You got some Karl Mark comic books under the pillow you been reading ???






They rewarded us with missile test and NUKES they swore not to build...

Go ahead use your impeccable logic to explain that

In this case the United States rewarded North Korea for turning off their old nuclear reactors by building them new reactors and shipping oil to them (Henriksen, 34). It can be argued though if this is really a reward. The reactors the United States would help build are too compensate the DPRK for closing their older reactors, and the oil is only being shipped until the reactors are up and working. This would appear to be, in short, something that the United States agreed to do in compensation, and not as a reward. However, the U.S. could have just as easily demanded that North Korea stop their reactors without any compensation (but what are the chances that North Korea would agree to that). Perhaps then this end of the agreement can be thought of as more of an incentive than a reward.

READ this instead of the comics.

 

[///M-Spec]

So interestingly, cnn.com is reporting that Chinese PLA troops long the North Korean border are "conducting anti-chemical drills". They also had their leave cancelled, but the drills are what I find more interesting.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/10/10/china.nkorea.nuclear.ap/index.html

Hmmm. Since a chem attack is one of KPA's signature doctrines, I wonder if China is sending a very pointed message to Pyongyang. 💡


M

 

[ledhed]

I think they need to point about Two thousand tanks and a Million rifles and artillery at Kim Bung.

Then pull all the triggers at the same time .

Problem Solved and I applaud the Chinese for saving us the trouble .

 

[Tornado]

Bottom line here...Clinton had the job of fixing the NK problem ...He BLEW IT...

It must be said that it is hardly Clinton's fault that the North Korean government is filled with untrustworthy bastards. Hillary blaming Bush for everything is very crass of her, but putting the blame entirely on Bill when it was mostly North Korea's fault anyways for going back on the agreement is crass as well.

I think they need to point about Two thousand tanks and a Million rifles and artillery at Kim Bung.
Then pull all the triggers at the same time .
Problem Solved and I applaud the Chinese for saving us the trouble

I called it. Woohoo!

 

[ledhed]

It must be said that it is hardly Clinton's fault that the North Korean government is filled with untrustworthy bastards. Hillary blaming Bush for everything is very crass of her, but putting the blame entirely on Bill when it was mostly North Korea's fault anyways for going back on the agreement is crass as well.

I called it. Woohoo!

Have you checked out the news today ?

China is MAJOR pissed.....


BTW you miss the huge point..when CLINTON had the problem NK had NO NUKES. If he fixed it the problem today would not exist and NK would not have NUKES ...its MUCH harder now to fix. HE trusted a dictator without putting safeguards in place...HE did not INVOLVE the Chinese ..HE did it on his own .

Iran wants nukes...do we go the Clinton route with Iran ?


AT any rate don't be suprised if they ( China ) do not fix the problem in their own way .

And its their right because its their border and THEY are the fallout zone.

Time for China to step up . It REALLY is a Chinese problem..if NK attacks SOUTH ..they are a fallout zone and will bear the brunt of the refugee problem of any NK still live . If NK attacks ANYONE with a nuke China is in the liine of return fire...its a no win for them if they cant contoll the Elvis puppet.

 

[OZZYGT]

Just a quick thought. With Kim Jong-il's actions, guess who are going to be his next ass kissers:

Duo-anti-america!!!...Yeah baby!






Ciao!

 

[McLaren]

Have you checked out the news today ?

China is MAJOR pissed.....

Really? I've only heard they aren't happy with North Korea's actions, not pissed.

But this was what I was waiting for. For a couple years now, I've been waiting for one of these weird sob dictators or terrorists to piss off China, and from what you say, it appears true.

 

[Tornado]

Really? I've only heard they aren't happy with North Korea's actions, not pissed.
But this was what I was waiting for. For a couple years now, I've been waiting for one of these weird sob dictators or terrorists to piss off China, and from what you say, it appears true.

If China ever wanted North Koreea to have nukes they would have given them to Kim.

 

[a6m5]

I still don't trust China. You guys all seem to think that China is genuinely upset at their little brother, but look at the article ledhed posted. It has "China" written from the beginning to end. They took some serious risks to make sure North Korea ended up with the nukes and rockets to launch them with. After reading that article, I'm even more suspicious of a possible Chinese governments' hidden agenda, here.

Hillary Clinton is a despicable doucebag. She has the nerve to blame Republicans for this problem. No, the blame is ALL on her so-called "husband." These doucebag, hippie, dope-smoking morons deserve all the credit for our problems with North Korea.

When North Korea was acting aggressive and childishly demanding financial aid to save his starving people, or it'll start a nuclear weapons program, was the time when Kim Jong-il should have been dealt with more aggressively by our "Clinton presidents." Instead, those doucebags hand him the money to finish up his nuclear weapons program while his people continued to suffer and die. Not one penny of that money Clinton gave went to helping North Korean people. It all went into the Kim Jong-il's nuclear weapons program.

Clinton was warned repeatedly not to do it, but he did it anyway. Now, we have to deal with his retarded mistakes. So, the next time you hear that stupid b**** Hillary open her fat, worthless mouth about who's fault this is, you know where you can tell her to go shove it.

Hillary Clinton is a politician. No more, no less. So yes, naturally, that would make her a hypocritical liar.

 

[Tornado]

I still don't trust China. You guys all seem to think that China is genuinely upset at their little brother, but look at the article ledhed posted. It has "China" written from the beginning to end. They took some serious risks to make sure North Korea ended up with the nukes and rockets to launch them with. After reading that article, I'm even more suspicious of a possible Chinese governments' hidden agenda, here.

Perhaps this was all a ruse to get the ROK government ousted in place of a more friendly "pro-China" government. Or perhaps it is a set-up to try to get a little wiggle room wth Taiwan, as suggested earlier. Either way, it gets rid of Kim unless there is a 3rd angle I am missing.

 

[ledhed]

Perhaps this was all a ruse to get the ROK government ousted in place of a more friendly "pro-China" government. Or perhaps it is a set-up to try to get a little wiggle room wth Taiwan, as suggested earlier. Either way, it gets rid of Kim unless there is a 3rd angle I am missing.

Your living in Asia or have lived in Asia correct ? NOTE ...Zero ...this was for you NOT toronado ....


So you understand the Chinese ...and ..the Japanese.... habit of understement and keeping things very close to the vest ..

So this statement when taken into consideration the text of what China had to say is somewhat explosive ...by Chinese staandards and past experiance.

Correct me if I am wrong .

BEIJING (AP) — China on Monday slammed North Korea for carrying out a nuclear test, openly criticizing its ally's nuclear program for the first time and demanding that Pyongyang return to disarmament talks.
"China expresses its resolute opposition" to the test, the Chinese Foreign Ministry said on its website. It complained that the North "defied the universal opposition of international society" by conducting the test.

The five-sentence statement made no mention of possible Chinese sanctions or any other official response.

But it was the most strongly worded Chinese reaction to date to the North's nuclear program and dropped the conciliatory tone of Beijing's previous statements.

"China strongly demands that North Korea abide by its non-nuclear pledge and avoid any other actions that further worsen the situation, and return to the track of the six-party talks," the statement said.

It appealed to all governments in the dispute over the North's nuclear program to stay calm and pursue a negotiated settlement.

Beijing has organized multiple rounds of international disarmament talks on the North's nuclear program. But they have been stalled since late 2005 over Pyongyang's opposition to U.S. financial sanctions imposed on North Korean companies accused of counterfeiting and other offenses.

Other participants in the talks are the United States, South Korea, Japan and Russia.

Beijing is the impoverished North's main source of food and fuel aid, and is under intense U.S. pressure to use its leverage to get Pyongyang to return to the talks.

But analysts say Beijing is reluctant to push the North too hard for fear of causing leader Kim Jong Il's regime to collapse, sending a flood of refugees into China and upsetting the region's military balance.

The North carried out the test despite a direct, public appeal from Beijing last Wednesday to stay calm and show restraint.

The North also defied public Chinese appeals in July when it test-fired missiles.


Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

Chinese troops are massing on the NK border in Chem gear BTW...must be an excercise. Might be a message .

 

[a6m5]

Perhaps this was all a ruse to get the ROK government ousted in place of a more friendly "pro-China" government. Or perhaps it is a set-up to try to get a little wiggle room wth Taiwan, as suggested earlier. Either way, it gets rid of Kim unless there is a 3rd angle I am missing.

Taiwan's definitely a possibility IMO. China has countless issues involving United States and Taiwan is just one of them. I have no idea what China is trying to pull here, but I have very hard time believing that China went thru all the trouble to arm North Korea with the nukes and means of delivery, then all of the sudden, their little buddy, Kim Jong-il turns on them acting like a crazy monkey. At least on the outside, they are expecting everyone to believe that North Korea is biting the hand that feeds them. I have very hard time believing that. What is going on between China and North Korea makes zero sense, and I think they both are smarter than this.

 

[Tornado]

Your living in Asia or have lived in Asia correct ?

I'm not sure what you are insinuating. Have I come off as Asian?

So you understand the Chinese ...and ..the Japanese.... habit of understement and keeping things very close to the vest ..

So this statement when taken into consideration the text of what China had to say is somewhat explosive ...by Chinese staandards and past experiance.

Correct me if I am wrong .

Chinese troops are massing on the NK border in Chem gear BTW...must be an excercise. Might be a message .

So, what you are saying is that the rather quick and admittedly forceful reaction from China declares it as a ruse? That is something to take into consideration, unless they truely do see Kim as a threat to the Politburo of China.
And it must be said, Kim doesn't exactly have the greatest record of...how should I say, predictability. I truthfully wouldn't be surprised if China is legitimately worried about Kim's sporadic behavior. Of course, the possibility of China using this all as a ruse is also possible. Hmmm.

 

[a6m5]

I truthfully wouldn't be surprised if China is legitimately worried about Kim's sporadic behavior. Of course, the possibility of China using this all as a ruse is also possible. Hmmm.

Good point. It's even more confusing now. Good job.

 

[ledhed]

I'm not sure what you are insinuating. Have I come off as Asian?

So, what you are saying is that the rather quick and admittedly forceful reaction from China declares it as a ruse? That is something to take into consideration, unless they truely do see Kim as a threat to the Politburo of China.
And it must be said, Kim doesn't exactly have the greatest record of...how should I say, predictability. I truthfully wouldn't be surprised if China is legitimately worried about Kim's sporadic behavior. Of course, the possibility of China using this all as a ruse is also possible. Hmmm.

toronodo i was directing it at zero....he's the guy you quoted I went back and edited it ..to reflect my mistake....I kinda DOUBT your Asian..


In Asia words are used very sparingly and conversations can mean a 1000 different things..it would take an Asian to desribe what I mean.

Basically a guy fron the US might Say ..I am going to tear off your Head and shove it so far up your butt you'll see me twice and from both ends...when he is angry at someone .

An Asian will say you have made a grave mistake and should be carefull of the results. If he says that much he likes you .

he may just say " that was a very interesting observation you have made '

If he says that ..check your life insurance policy to be sure its paid up .

Its a different culture and there is no such thing...or there was not ..such a thing as DIRECT negotiation.

When words come from the chinese government they carry many meanings ...and deliberately so .

I am sure we have people here who have lived in Japan or China ..or Singapore , Hong Kong ..etc. Or have served in the military that can more than likely explain what I mean better than I am doing .



I am only repeating the lessons I was taught by others.


Zero is the American name for the A6m5 Aircraft BTW ...in case you were wondering .

 

[a6m5]

toronodo i was directing it at zero....he's the guy you quoted I went back and edited it ..to reflect my mistake....I kinda DOUBT your Asian..


In Asia words are used very sparingly and conversations can mean a 1000 different things..it would take an Asian to desribe what I mean.

Basically a guy fron the US might Say ..I am going to tear off your Head and shove it so far up your butt you'll see me twice and from both ends...when he is angry at someone .

An Asian will say you have made a grave mistake and should be carefull of the results. If he says that much he likes you .

he may just say " that was a very interesting observation you have made '

If he says that ..check your life insurance policy to be sure its paid up .

Its a different culture and there is no such thing...or there was not ..such a thing as DIRECT negotiation.

When words come from the chinese government they carry many meanings ...and deliberately so .

I am sure we have people here who have lived in Japan or China ..or Singapore , Hong Kong ..etc. Or have served in the military that can more than likely explain what I mean better than I am doing .



I am only repeating the lessons I was taught by others.


Zero is the American name for the A6m5 Aircraft BTW ...in case you were wondering .

Dang. I was gonna say what the hell is A65M, but you fixed it.

I'm as Americanized as Kareoki(not how it's spelled, but that's how it's pronounced in the States ), but you are right. Dialogues and exchanges between Japanese and Chinese government do often go that way. Each side actually have to read into what the other side is trying to say.

 

[ledhed]

toronodo i was directing it at zero....he's the guy you quoted I went back and edited it ..to reflect my mistake....I kinda DOUBT your Asian..


In Asia words are used very sparingly and conversations can mean a 1000 different things..it would take an Asian to describe what I mean.

Basically a guy from the US might Say ..I am going to tear off your Head and shove it so far up your butt you'll see me twice and from both ends...when he is angry at someone .

An Asian will say you have made a grave mistake and should be carefull of the results. If he says that much he likes you .

he may just say " that was a very interesting observation you have made '

If he says that ..check your life insurance policy to be sure its paid up .

Its a different culture and there is no such thing...or there was not ..such a thing as DIRECT negotiation.

When words come from the Chinese government they carry many meanings ...and deliberately so .

I am sure we have people here who have lived in Japan or China ..or Singapore , Hong Kong ..etc. Or have served in the military that can more than likely explain what I mean better than I am doing .



I am only repeating the lessons I was taught by others.


Zero is the American name for the A6m5 Aircraft BTW ...in case you were wondering .

Now to answer your question ..I think China is scared of the response North Korea will get from its TRADE partners and the refugee problem and the fact that sanctions will cost China money in the billions. That and the fact that the puppet regime is NOT acting like a puppet anymore...China lost over a million soldiers the last time a North Korean nut job went off his rocker...they DO NOT want any more American influence and thats whats going to happen if they DO NOT step on NK like a bug and take the lead on negotiations and FORCE NK to behave..they have More to lose in this situation ..both in trade and prestige and in military cost than any country outside South Korea...the US will just BOMB the living crap out of NK and leave it a wasteland...who's going to deal with all the living North Koreans after that happens ? China has a huge problem NOW with refugee's from NK ..

Plus it kills their trade with the west that right now is FEEDING the billions of Chinese and modernizing their country .

So you tell me what YOU think they will do ?

remember all Korea was supposed to be was a buffer between the west and its influence and the Chinese...they didn't want a western economy like GERMANY on the border exposing the lie of Communism and they also didn't need a staging ground for the US to invade when they are scared piss less by the Russians .
North Korea by going rogue nation is killing them and ruining their plans ...in fact I wouldn't be surprised if the NUKES were not meant for the Chinese and all the bluster against the US was just a smokescreen..China is hugely rich and right next door...A Clinton type dumb ass only comes along ( hopefully ) once so you wont see any cash or aid from the US .


There is allot to think about .

 

[a6m5]

So, your theory is basically the accepted one that's on the news, every night?

Admitedly, your theory is more likely to be correct. Basically, the key point I disagree on is Kim Jong-il. Knowingly, or unknowingly, I think he is doing exactly what China is expecting him to do. As I've noted before, China went through a lot of trouble to make North Korea an nuclear threat(that's from the article you provided!). I just don't buy that Kim all of the sudden decides to turn on China. Their lone ally... and lone ally to NK means a lot different than to countries like U.S., etc. NK is all by itself. This is a country that wouldn't have enough food or weapons without China. To me, that's like Israel turning against the U.S. I just can't buy it..... yet.

 

[ledhed]

So, your theory is basically the accepted one that's on the news, every night?

Admitedly, your theory is more likely to be correct. Basically, the key point I disagree on is Kim Jong-il. Knowingly, or unknowingly, I think he is doing exactly what China is expecting him to do. As I've noted before, China went through a lot of trouble to make North Korea an nuclear threat(that's from the article you provided!). I just don't buy that Kim all of the sudden decides to turn on China. Their lone ally... and lone ally to NK means a lot different than to countries like U.S., etc. NK is all by itself. This is a country that wouldn't have enough food or weapons without China. To me, that's like Israel turning against the U.S. I just can't buy it..... yet.

I disagree they got the US to pay for something they would have gotten stuck with and USED their PRESTIGE ...their "FACE " to convince the US it was the best move ...

You dont think they are pissed ?? For a host of reasons ??


No way the US does squat in that reagion without considering and consulting with China...way too much invested ...and NOT only money.

We are talking learning how to actually trust each other here ....this is a huge hit for China ...make no mistake ..

You cant controll NK ...so we have to do it ???

Think like your Chinese ...are you fixing your bayonette yet and looking for som KIM Ill to poke ?


China lives on its face and it just got slapped.

Expect the thunder to follow .

Like I said this could be ILl kims way of moving the Chinese to do HIS bidding...


I dont expect it to go over very well .

 

[a6m5]

I just don't want to underestimate the Chinese. Historically, they've proven to be very crafty strategists. Perhaps I'm giving them too much credit....

 

[s0nny80y]

So I guess North Korea doesn't make a better case to go to war with than Iraq???

 

[Sureboss]

Do they even have missiles that can reach the US? it's about 4,000 Miles to the US from there, isn't it? That's a long way, and there recent attempts with long range weapons failed.

If they used a Nuke, to hit America, they'd probably have no North Korea before it hit the states. I still doubt they'd use them though.

 

[Mark T]

Sky news reported today that any intervention from the US would be considered as an "act of war". This could get really nasty and is going to take some skilled diplomacy.

North Korea is one country that you don't want to go to war with.

 

[Touring Mars]

That's the crux of the problem - North Korea are convinced that the US want to attack them, so any diplomacy fronted by the US will be viewed with suspicion and/or contempt. In this case, China need to take the diplomatic lead.

You don't want to go to war with the North Koreans, but without the support of China, they'd be royally screwed.

Besides, reports suggest that the 'nuclear explosion' was little more than a dud anyway - only the Russians believe that it was a successful nuclear test - the French defense minister claimed that, from the available evidence, that the test was either a failure or a non-nuclear explosion. Either way, we shouldn't be quaking in our boots just yet.

The U.S may be perfectly correct to assert that North Korea cannot be allowed to become a nuclear (weapons) power (since that is perfectly consistent with the global principle of nuclear non-proliferation), but we should acknowledge just how harmful George W. Bush's blundering attempts at international diplomacy have been in this particular context - tarring North Korea as one of an 'axis of evil' (implying a connection that simply doesn't exist in reality). We easily dismiss North Korea as 'paranoid' - but as Kurt Cobain once said, "Just because you are paranoid, does not mean I'm not after you..." - I reckon after the example of Iraq (another member of the 'axis'), you could be forgiven for thinking that North Korea's 'paranoia' is perfectly justified...

 

[YSSMAN]

Do they even have missiles that can reach the US? it's about 4,000 Miles to the US from there, isn't it? That's a long way, and there recent attempts with long range weapons failed.

If they used a Nuke, to hit America, they'd probably have no North Korea before it hit the states. I still doubt they'd use them though.

Well heres the thing, we don't completely know for sure. The DPRK has been developing ICBMs to travel across the Pacific Ocean to be able to hit the United States, but the extent of which they can travel is unknown. Their tests back on July 4th showed that certainly they have the capability to launch and attack our Allies in Japan and South Korea (maybe even Australia, as they seem to be picking a fight with our buddies down-under as well).

As of right now it is belived that the DPRK's longest-range missle may be able to stike Alaska and possibly the west coast of the continental United States. This would put cities like Seattle and Los Angeles at risk, however we do have several safety precautions in place.

First of all there are the ships located in and around Korean waters that employ the AEGIS tracking system that allows for our own missles to destroy others... Think of it as the next-step upwards from the Patriot Missle System employed during the first Gulf War.

Secondly there is the American Missle Defense Shield located on the west coast that performs a similar task compared to that of the AEGIS systems. These missle "blanks" are used to shoot down other ICBMs headed twards our country, and we have been for the most part successful with this program.

...But even then, it is the belief of the CIA and the DOD that the DPRK cannot strap a nuclear weapon to one of their ICBMs. They have enough Taepo-Dong I and II to do enough damage in Aisia, and that is worry enough there.

 

[Danoff]

So I guess North Korea doesn't make a better case to go to war with than Iraq???

Not if your major concern is terrorism from the middle east.

 

[Swift]

So I guess North Korea doesn't make a better case to go to war with than Iraq???

Do you actually believe anything the New York Times says? I'm being serious.

Sky news reported today that any intervention from the US would be considered as an "act of war". This could get really nasty and is going to take some skilled diplomacy.

North Korea is one country that you don't want to go to war with.

An act of War? As in taking our technology that they promised not to use for weapons and did use it for weapons instead of helping the people of North Korea?

I don't want to go to war with any country if at all possible. But this guy...well, hopefully China will step up an enforce the sanctions that may bring this guy back down to earth.

 

[Touring Mars]

An act of War? As in taking our technology that they promised not to use for weapons and did use it for weapons instead of helping the people of North Korea?

I don't want to go to war with any country if at all possible. But this guy...well, hopefully China will step up an enforce the sanctions that may bring this guy back down to earth.

Or is Kim Jong-Il merely the leader of a puppet regime? Shock new photographic evidence suggests that he is...

 

[ledhed]

Sky news reported today that any intervention from the US would be considered as an "act of war". This could get really nasty and is going to take some skilled diplomacy.

North Korea is one country that you don't want to go to war with.

Why ?