North Korea Problems: President Clinton in Pyongyang

[a6m5]

I don't like the current South Korean government at all. When the President was losing approval rating, he went on extremem Japanese bashing you usually see from governments like the Chinese and North Korea. It helped him for few months, but didn't last long.

They also started siding with China, distancing themselves somewhat from the U.S. This of course annoyed the Americans. On one hand, they are bringing back what happend in World War II to accuse Japan of .... well, everything. On the other hand, they start turning against the Americans despite all they've done for South Korea in the past. Roh is a hypocritical, two timing, back stabber, as far as I'm concerned.

I thought South Korea was doing great before he took office. Japan-South Korea relation at the time was so good, I thought we could become the best of friends in Asia. Their economy I believe was doing well, also.

Sunshine Policy was a joke. In reality, I can't believe that someone would take that kind of approach toward someone who is a killer and a con man.

I think ledhed has a good point about how it is time now to "slap" North Korea. The world is taking the negotiation and U.N. Resolution approach again, just like with Iraq, then North Korea. We all saw how well they went. I belive that this is like putting a band-aid on a deep cut, requiring stiches. It will hold for a bit, but not for long.

I haven't watched the video yet, but sounds very interesting. Discovery is a great channel, I'd watch it, if I had cable. I will check it out.

 

[ledhed]

I'm not saying that I totally disagree with the policy, but it certainly is interesting to hear members of the current US administration saying that their top priority is the safety and security of themselves above anything else... whereas the Russians and Chinese, although they also just backed UN sanctions - with the proviso that there is no threat of military action - seem to be adopting a less 'inward-looking' stance.

It is highly ironic that both the US and the DPRK have their own individual securities as their main priorities. It is also interesting to note the level of disagreement between the US and South Korea - especially after Bush took over from Clinton and abandoned the South's 'Sunshine Policy' and chose instead to opt down the road of brinksmanship...

The whole key to everything you just posted is " seem to "

The US seems to be taking a etc. while the others seem to be taking a etc.

What are they really doing when they are not " seeming to do something " ?

Thats the problem with diplomacy .." seeming to do something " is just a starting point .

Not like back in the day when the US would just say .." Any test by NK will be considered by the US as a direct threat to the US and a threat to our Allies and will be dealt with by all means at our disposal.


Absolutely no way to " seem to " that at all .

But you have a six way negotiation with all parties having different levels of ECONOMIC exposure...Russia and China along with South Korea..and Military exposure...South Korea the United States and Japan .

So you get a whole bunch of "seeming to "


The US is being threatened with a Nuke...and Japan and South Korea are being held hostage by the Midget Elvis of the North .

SO of COURSE the US seems to be LOOKING INWARD at its security situation...UMMM last I looked North Korea HAS NOT threatened CHINA OR RUSSIA with a Nuclear attack ..so Touring Mars would you not say that that LITTLE fact has a big influence on how each side " looks " at things and presents its " seeming to " argument ????


North Korea is Using the US as an excuse to extort economic and other concessions they cant get without a war they would lose. The US coud care LESS if every midget one of Kim bungs government did bad kareoke as long as they didnt involve South Korea or Japan...Kim Bung wants to starve his people ...hey thats China's problem....they get the refugee's ...

Kim bung wants to build nukes and fire Rockets ..thats a direct threat to UNited States and South Korea and Japan ...

The US NEVER " threatened " NK....most of the stuff comming from NK is from out of the fiction bible ...BUT its a good as a excuse as any to try extortion...economicss and actual GOVERNING wont work...so hey ...gimme aid or I'll kill yo...that should work...


So excuse me while I sit back and watch the idiots at work....you never know he may actualy get one of his firecrackers to work...then the whole problem is solved...he gets destroyed and we move on to the next insane bunch that wants to rule the world or just kill all the people that are not them .





Instead of Kim Ill bung getting his butt toasted .

 

[Touring Mars]

SO of COURSE the US seems to be LOOKING INWARD at its security situation...UMMM last I looked North Korea HAS NOT threatened CHINA OR RUSSIA with a Nuclear attack ..so Touring Mars would you not say that that LITTLE fact has a big influence on how each side " looks " at things and presents its " seeming to " argument ????

I agree, the US does have a uniquely bad relationship with DPRK since they hold the US responsible for the partitioning of the motherland (quite why the North Koreans think that the South will ever want to become part of their socialist state is anyone's guess...), and that's why I don't totally disagree with the stance that the US are taking... I still think that China need to be the ones to force a deal and to back the threat of the use of force - which would basically stay Kim Jong Il's hand indefinitely. The way things are going, with the DPRK quickly falling out of favour with Beijing, this is a real possibility.

 

[ledhed]

I'm not saying that I totally disagree with the policy, but it certainly is interesting to hear members of the current US administration saying that their top priority is the safety and security of themselves above anything else... whereas the Russians and Chinese, although they also just backed UN sanctions - with the proviso that there is no threat of military action - seem to be adopting a less 'inward-looking' stance.

It is highly ironic that both the US and the DPRK have their own individual securities as their main priorities. It is also interesting to note the level of disagreement between the US and South Korea - especially after Bush took over from Clinton and abandoned the South's 'Sunshine Policy' and chose instead to opt down the road of brinksmanship...

I honestly think you either misinterpreted everything or have neglected to notice that the US has REFUSED to talk to NK wwithout all the other possible victims of NK being in the discussion.

Please explain how with that ipso facto decision that you feel the US ONLY is concerrned for its OWN security ?

I would strongly have to disagree and say they are MORE concerned with the REGIONS security and then our own ...being that we ARE in South Korea to DEFEND THEM . And Japan .

Can you sort of expalian why you feel the way you do ?

I just do not see it .


BTW that " SUNSHINE POLICY ' you mention is the reason , the DIRECT reason Kim bung has NUKES and is blowing up firecrackers....

He gave you some " sunshine" alright ...you have to be overlooking a few things like VERIFICATION that an insane dictator is actually, following the rules..... being an important part of any negotiations with kooks .

BUT Clinton let them sneak around for 8 years making both Plutoneum and uranium nukes while ' " SUNSHINE " was just streaming in...along with billions of dollars and the technology to blow us up....must have been a bad " sun " .

 

[ledhed]

I agree, the US does have a uniquely bad relationship with DPRK since they hold the US responsible for the partitioning of the motherland (quite why the North Koreans think that the South will ever want to become part of their socialist state is anyone's guess...), and that's why I don't totally disagree with the stance that the US are taking... I still think that China need to be the ones to force a deal and to back the threat of the use of force - which would basically stay Kim Jong Il's hand indefinitely. The way things are going, with the DPRK quickly falling out of favour with Beijing, this is a real possibility.

You do know the SOVIET union demanded the partition after WW II ? The US wanted one Korea along with China...but the Soviets felt left out after Japan surrendered and they got left out on most of the " loot " .

The partition was a compromise ....and it doomed us to the Korean war annd decades of a face off with crazy dudes .


Sorry for the double post but the Eagles are losing 10 nothing and my blood pressure is trying to blow my head off...gotta get the duct tape ...

 

[YSSMAN]

Don't you love post-Cold War politics? When everything seemed great then, it all comes back to kick us in the nuts. I belive "blowback" is the term on some occasions, although it may not be the best way to describe the current situation.

...Although it will be interesting to see how the DPRK responds to the UN's actions against them, as they had said before that it would be "an act of war" against them, and they wouldn't hesitate to take acton... Or thats what I got from it. But, we may have called their bluff here. Bombs aren't falling from the sky, no other nuclear weapons have been tested.

Hmmmmm...

---

BTW: Sorry, but I chose to bet against The Eagles today, as I felt New Orleans had a bit more momentum going with them into the game. But this week was a little weird anyway. The Lions beat the Bills, KC getting their asses handed to them by Pitsburg (neither teams are that great), and The Titans beating The Skins (my biggest money-maker today).

 

[ledhed]

Heyb guess what ? FOX news had a reaally good special to educate us on the Korean Squirrel...had Albright and Sandy the burgler and all of them explaining stuff ....it was actually really good ..I know becuse they had a slew of experts with British accents..so it had to awsome .

 

[a6m5]

This is kind of interesting:

S Koreans blame US for nuke test

THE US is more responsible than North Korea itself for Pyongyang's nuclear test, according to a South Korean poll published today.

Some 43 per cent of respondents picked the US as most to blame, followed by 37.3 per cent who chose the country that actually conducted the October 9 test.

Nearly 14 per cent said South Korea was most responsible, 2.4 per cent picked China and 1 per cent singled out Japan.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,20588787-1702,00.html

I would have said:

1. North Korea
2. China
3. Pakistan
4. South Korea

I don't understand their "whining". Has the B-52s made a flyover over Pyonyang or something?

If it wasn't for the U.S., entire Korean Peninsula would've been ruled by Imperial Japan, or Kim Jong-il-type dictator. Even if they were some how magically on their own, without the investment made by the Americans, it's economy would have rivaled that of the North Korea's.

Speculating by the poll result, South Koreans seems to be in love with China. In actuality, North Koreans couldn't have obtained the rocket or nuclear technology that they have without the help from China. But somehow, more people blame the U.S. or their own country more than China for the nuclear testing.

 

[Mind SV]

The UN has a really tough decision when to move in or not, but somthing is going to have to be done soon. Korea isnt letting their people die just to have a nuke sit there. And if they sell it, most likly it will be to one of the terrorist groups, which would gladly use it on us.

 

[ledhed]

This is kind of interesting:

I would have said:

1. North Korea
2. China
3. Pakistan
4. South Korea

I don't understand their "whining". Has the B-52s made a flyover over Pyonyang or something?

If it wasn't for the U.S., entire Korean Peninsula would've been ruled by Imperial Japan, or Kim Jong-il-type dictator. Even if they were some how magically on their own, without the investment made by the Americans, it's economy would have rivaled that of the North Korea's.

Speculating by the poll result, South Koreans seems to be in love with China. In actuality, North Koreans couldn't have obtained the rocket or nuclear technology that they have without the help from China. But somehow, more people blame the U.S. or their own country more than China for the nuclear testing.

Who did the poll , what was the question asked ? And how can you expect an Asian that has been under almost constant rule or influence by other countries for centuries to blame the right person ? In South Korea they ONLY recently decided to allow a bit of freedom of speech.. The smart ones probibly just took a guess at what the government wanted them to say..

After being under martial law and restrictive regimes for most of your life its a hard habit to break .

Aside from that it IS the US fault ...Clinton shouldnt have gave them the technology and the money he should have bombed the snot out of them ...


But hey who knew .....trusting dictators who are a bit nutty is a good plan ...isnt it ? If you put controlls in place to actually verify they may say no deal...then you cant have a toast and proclaim ..." peace for our time " ..


So anyway you look at it they are a bit right... aquestion with no wrong answer is always cool .

 

[a6m5]

Who did the poll , what was the question asked ? And how can you expect an Asian that has been under almost constant rule or influence by other countries for centuries to blame the right person ? In South Korea they ONLY recently decided to allow a bit of freedom of speech.. The smart ones probibly just took a guess at what the government wanted them to say..

I don't know who did the poll, but the results are everywhere. I first saw it on the Japanese News site, then looked for the English version to post it here. I did attach a link to the article.

As for blaming the right person, isn't it kind of obvious about the biase when their people are blaming the United States for the North Korean nuclear testing, more than the North Koreans themselves?

And if the South Korean government and media is really spreading the propaganda against the Americans, blaming all the North Korean nuclear fiasco on them, then isn't this a problem? If that indeed was true, then looks like South Korea already has chosen which side to take(China/North Korea).

Aside from that it IS the US fault ...Clinton shouldnt have gave them the technology and the money he should have bombed the snot out of them ...

I agree there, though the "nuclear technology" that was used in the testing came from Pakistan, via aid from China. Besides, I'm interested to know what the South Korean governments position was on the Clinton's aid. I think they were in support for it. They might have even took part in it.

But hey who knew .....trusting dictators who are a bit nutty is a good plan ...isnt it ? If you put controlls in place to actually verify they may say no deal...then you cant have a toast and proclaim ..." peace for our time " ..


So anyway you look at it they are a bit right... aquestion with no wrong answer is always cool .

I do see your point. You blame Clinton, and that is not entirely wrong. If they were going to cut a deal with someone with a trustworthiness of Kim Jong-il, they should have been more thorough. But when the question was asked, it was about the recent nuclear testing in North Korea. What the U.S. did might have helped little bit, indirectly, but look at what China did for North Korea, so far. If they weren't going to get uranium from the reactor provided by Clinton, they would have gotten it else where. Same way they got the rocket and nuclear technology.

 

[ledhed]

I don't know who did the poll, but the results are everywhere. I first saw it on the Japanese News site, then looked for the English version to post it here. I did attach a link to the article.

As for blaming the right person, isn't it kind of obvious about the bias when their people are blaming the United States for the North Korean nuclear testing, more than the North Koreans themselves?

And if the South Korean government and media is really spreading the propaganda against the Americans, blaming all the North Korean nuclear fiasco on them, then isn't this a problem? If that indeed was true, then looks like South Korea already has chosen which side to take(China/North Korea).


I agree there, though the "nuclear technology" that was used in the testing came from Pakistan, via aid from China. Besides, I'm interested to know what the South Korean governments position was on the Clinton's aid. I think they were in support for it. They might have even took part in it.


I do see your point. You blame Clinton, and that is not entirely wrong. If they were going to cut a deal with someone with a trustworthiness of Kim Jong-il, they should have been more thorough. But when the question was asked, it was about the recent nuclear testing in North Korea. What the U.S. did might have helped little bit, indirectly, but look at what China did for North Korea, so far. If they weren't going to get uranium from the reactor provided by Clinton, they wouldn't have gotten it else where. Same way they got the rocket and nuclear technology.

Actually they started the nuke program in the sixties . With help from the Soviets, The NK know China and Russia are in competition for influence in Asia...and are actually considered enemies in some circles...at one time it was estimated that more warheads were aimed at China than the US...by a very huge margain..not adjusted for population


Russia moved into and controlled the Chinese sphere of influence in Mongolia...before Japan and after Japan also did it . The History between China and Russia goes back hundreds of years. NK had a working reactor to get plutonium as a gift from the soviets...Without going off too far on a tangent a BIG reason Nixon went to China and made nice with them was to put pressure on the Soviets who were screwing around in Indo China...didn't it ever seem a bit ODD that China wasn't in Vietnam more than a fellow " socialist paradise" should have been ? Aside from the Fact Vietnam and China are enemies from hundreds off years ago and actually fought a nice little war ..once Vietnam was reunified .


China fears influence from not only the west but from Russia . North Korea plays all sides against the middle ...similar to what used to happen in the Mid East and why most Arab countries use Russian / Soviet made stuff for us to blow up . China has mostly copies of stuff they got through Russia or a hybrid of stuff they managed to steal through industrial spying but lack the high tech capabilities of the US and Russia. Did you know a Scud missile is about a few years removed from a V-2 rocket used in WW II ? And that the rockets fired at Israel by Hezbollah are almost the same as those used in 1945 ?

North Korea switched to run a dual plutonium and uranium nuke program..they did a smart thing and joined the NPT to get the tech for free that accelerated their technology by at least twenty years. They can now build 1945 to 1955 types of bombs that are good enough to kill a million a pop on a good day , the question is can they put them on a delivery system or will they just put one in a cargo container and ship it UPS or Jihadi express ?

What Clinton did was rely on bad info...much like Bush because the cost of a war is so damned high almost anything is better...so you get a deal that cant be verified..Clinton CLAIMS he was ready to go to war over it...and I believe him . Look at all he did with China to open up trade relations and economic development and such...you must believe he had to assurances from China that NK would follow the agreement Clinton is NOT a stupid man except when women are involved so I think He just got a major backstabbing surprise pulled on him...Bush just did his usual cowboy I wont stand for it routine and then GOT everyone in on the game . IMO a very shrewed move ...Here's the catch though..although SOUTH KOREA will be the second biggest loser in a war..the first being North Korea...but if the NUT in the North Either doesn't care or doesn't believe he will lose ...you get what we have now . And that is ....

China has trade relations along with other countries including Russia in the BILLIONS ..and the South is worried that if he gets too upset they will all die for it . Japan is just pissed off he is alive and they cant take care of him themselves ...if Japan had a different constitution and a Military ..North Korea would be one big parking lot or a Disney resort right now .

So if your LIVING in South Korea ...YOU do not WANT the US to destroy North Korea because ..they are KOREANS and because it will mean a whole big bunch of your fellow countrymen will be joining them . Maybe even you.

They FOUGHT a Korean war without NUKES..look at the destruction and casualties .

Now put yourself in Korean shoes...the US HAS to be wrong or they are going to die . Either way they die...we attack NK they die ...NK attacks them ...they die ..


All in all I am glad I do not live there . No great options and I have looked at all the different war plans and read all the different scenarios...and they all end with NO North Korea in 30 to 60 days and massive destruction in the South along with casualties approaching a million ..mostly civilian on the most pessimistic side and 100,000 to 200,000 on the MOST optimistic side .

All of these figures were arrived by using conventional weapons...the North has buried their stuff it seems far enough underground to be Nuke proof. According to the latest retired general who got to be on TV... So you need to slaughter their whole army or enough so they give up and then go in with ground troops to destroy the nuclear and chemical capabilities.

That sucks .for the world .


Unless we wake up and deal with China honestly and give them the power in the North after of course they send a few million troops into visit Kim Bung while we hold the south and bomb the snot out of everything that moves or even looks like it may move....

And we do it BEFORE KIM bungholio gets a NUKE that works or figures out how to use his firecrackers.

But I am being pragmatic and realistic.....AND I live on the East coast .


Remember the guys that fought and died to save South Korea are dying out and history gets to fade with them as politics and adgenda's and memories fade away.

The fact that the US is in Korea is seen by Koreans as both a blessing and a curse...and the fact they are NOT a united country HAS to be someones fault .

 

[Tornado]

Great post. Can't +Rep, but would if I could. 👍

 

[ledhed]

I even almost spelled everything right and used paragraphs and all...

Must be a full moon or M / specs influence ...


if you only knew how much actual work that is ....phew...my poor old brain .

 

[Tornado]

Either way, that has to be one of the most level-headed non-politically challenged (ie. Leftward or rightward bias) posts I've ever seen in the opinions forum. You sir, are unbiased. Bravo.

 

[ledhed]

I do not want the world to end until I am at least dead a few years and my children get to grow up.

Its just a pragmatic look at historical fact. politics is for weasles and those who desire the power needed to lead...pragmatism and reality are at times what is needed if you are to survive .

Once the Nuke is exploded it wont matter anymore whose fault it is and all the billions of dollars now being made wont be worth a used snot rag .

If everyone doesnt wake up and pull toghether against the maniac threats in the world . Bad things will happen that will make WW II look like amatuer Hour .

If Kim ILL Bung cant be handled , what happens to the crazy zealots of Jihad in Iran ? They want only to bathe the world in blood and the comming of the 12 Imman...or Mullah or whatever....and a world UNITED... under Islam of course..... and in the name of peace and of GOD himself are willing to kill everyone on earth to make it happen...PARADISE AWAITS ...

I want my peace dividend I was PROMISED when the Berlin wall fell and I cried tears of joy...I thought the world had finally found sanity...

WTF is this ??? Its surely not sane .


Look at the history of the period before WW II . Germany could have been fought and stopped ...yes it would have meant a war..and NO ONE SANE WANTS WAR. Not after WW I ...especially right ? So they appeased and they bargained and those that they bargained with became more powerfull and more bold and then finally the world self destructed .
There is your lesson ...its staring you right in the face...but human nature wont change..war will cost too much...


BUT when the bill gets paid with nukes you have to ask yourself What is worse than too much ...and you will have the answer .

Letting millions die later and a world in a major economic depression that will kill millions more and more radical zealots with WMDS creating a new version of society that will be a real blast to live in .

When do you pay the bill ? Now or later ?

 

[a6m5]

Actually they started the nuke program in the sixties . With help from the Soviets, The NK know China and Russia are in competition for influence in Asia...and are actually considered enemies in some circles...at one time it was estimated that more warheads were aimed at China than the US...by a very huge margain..not adjusted for population


Russia moved into and controlled the Chinese sphere of influence in Mongolia...before Japan and after Japan also did it . The History between China and Russia goes back hundreds of years. NK had a working reactor to get plutonium as a gift from the soviets...Without going off too far on a tangent a BIG reason Nixon went to China and made nice with them was to put pressure on the Soviets who were screwing around in Indo China...didn't it ever seem a bit ODD that China wasn't in Vietnam more than a fellow " socialist paradise" should have been ? Aside from the Fact Vietnam and China are enemies from hundreds off years ago and actually fought a nice little war ..once Vietnam was reunified .


China fears influence from not only the west but from Russia . North Korea plays all sides against the middle ...similar to what used to happen in the Mid East and why most Arab countries use Russian / Soviet made stuff for us to blow up . China has mostly copies of stuff they got through Russia or a hybrid of stuff they managed to steal through industrial spying but lack the high tech capabilities of the US and Russia. Did you know a Scud missile is about a few years removed from a V-2 rocket used in WW II ? And that the rockets fired at Israel by Hezbollah are almost the same as those used in 1945 ?

North Korea switched to run a dual plutonium and uranium nuke program..they did a smart thing and joined the NPT to get the tech for free that accelerated their technology by at least twenty years. They can now build 1945 to 1955 types of bombs that are good enough to kill a million a pop on a good day , the question is can they put them on a delivery system or will they just put one in a cargo container and ship it UPS or Jihadi express ?

What Clinton did was rely on bad info...much like Bush because the cost of a war is so damned high almost anything is better...so you get a deal that cant be verified..Clinton CLAIMS he was ready to go to war over it...and I believe him . Look at all he did with China to open up trade relations and economic development and such...you must believe he had to assurances from China that NK would follow the agreement Clinton is NOT a stupid man except when women are involved so I think He just got a major backstabbing surprise pulled on him...Bush just did his usual cowboy I wont stand for it routine and then GOT everyone in on the game . IMO a very shrewed move ...Here's the catch though..although SOUTH KOREA will be the second biggest loser in a war..the first being North Korea...but if the NUT in the North Either doesn't care or doesn't believe he will lose ...you get what we have now . And that is ....

China has trade relations along with other countries including Russia in the BILLIONS ..and the South is worried that if he gets too upset they will all die for it . Japan is just pissed off he is alive and they cant take care of him themselves ...if Japan had a different constitution and a Military ..North Korea would be one big parking lot or a Disney resort right now .

So if your LIVING in South Korea ...YOU do not WANT the US to destroy North Korea because ..they are KOREANS and because it will mean a whole big bunch of your fellow countrymen will be joining them . Maybe even you.

They FOUGHT a Korean war without NUKES..look at the destruction and casualties .

Now put yourself in Korean shoes...the US HAS to be wrong or they are going to die . Either way they die...we attack NK they die ...NK attacks them ...they die ..


All in all I am glad I do not live there . No great options and I have looked at all the different war plans and read all the different scenarios...and they all end with NO North Korea in 30 to 60 days and massive destruction in the South along with casualties approaching a million ..mostly civilian on the most pessimistic side and 100,000 to 200,000 on the MOST optimistic side .

All of these figures were arrived by using conventional weapons...the North has buried their stuff it seems far enough underground to be Nuke proof. According to the latest retired general who got to be on TV... So you need to slaughter their whole army or enough so they give up and then go in with ground troops to destroy the nuclear and chemical capabilities.

That sucks .for the world .


Unless we wake up and deal with China honestly and give them the power in the North after of course they send a few million troops into visit Kim Bung while we hold the south and bomb the snot out of everything that moves or even looks like it may move....

And we do it BEFORE KIM bungholio gets a NUKE that works or figures out how to use his firecrackers.

But I am being pragmatic and realistic.....AND I live on the East coast .


Remember the guys that fought and died to save South Korea are dying out and history gets to fade with them as politics and adgenda's and memories fade away.

The fact that the US is in Korea is seen by Koreans as both a blessing and a curse...and the fact they are NOT a united country HAS to be someones fault .

Some insightful points, but I disagree with the "No North Korea, and bunch of dead South Koreans" part. I still see the powerful North Korean Military having to fight their own people, in, and outside their military. I see their disintegration rivaling that of the Iraqis', but as I've told YSSMAN, that's just my opinion on it.

As for the reply regarding the South Korean poll blaming the U.S. for the North Korean nuclear testing, you are gonna have to draw me a picture or something. You seem to be saying that the South Koreans have put themselve in denial, because if the U.S. is not responsible, it will result in the war between the U.S. and North Korea, with South Korea suffering heavy casualty. Is this right? Maybe, I misunderstood you. It doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[YSSMAN]

Remember the guys that fought and died to save South Korea are dying out and history gets to fade with them as politics and adgenda's and memories fade away.

It is kinda weird to think that our generation will fight the same war that our grandparents started nearly 60 years ago, isn't it?

---

But a6m5, I think you are reading into these polls a little too much. South Korea is on our (America) side, there isn't any questioning it. I think the blame that these people see that they are placing uppon America is mostly that our political leverage wasn't strong enough to deter the development and the testing of the weapons.

I think most people in South Korea realize that the North is a major threat to their livelyhood, and maybe even their survival, and they would most likely seek protection from their friends in Washington and Tokyo. Their relationships with China, much like the United States, is one of economics, not necessiarily political power. Keep in mind that it was China that tipped the scales in the Korean War, pushing the UN forces back from the North Korean and Chinese border, back down to the DMZ line that still stands today.

What is also interesting is that Japan and Australia may tighten their sanctions uppon North Korea beyond that of those mandated by the Security Council last week. China of course fought some of the provisions (did the Russkies too?), but later came to their senses, and now are enforcing them (for the most part) to their origional intent. This of course comes with an outcry from the Human Rights groups who claim that we will kill hundreds of thousands of civilians by starving them further than what they allready are, but pish-posh, as if the DPRK complies with the demands of the UN, this could all be over quickly.

...But if our Allies are pushing so hard against the DPRK, moreso than that of even ourselves and South Korea, whos to say that they won't fight the war for us? While I certainly understand the tensions between Tokyo and Pyongyang, I can't see the reasons for any quibbles with Sydney. The Australian Prime Minister certainly seems a bit fired up over the current happenings in the Pacific, and maybe I missed something, but hey the more folks on our side, the stronger our political power will be...

 

[a6m5]

But a6m5, I think you are reading into these polls a little too much. South Korea is on our (America) side, there isn't any questioning it. I think the blame that these people see that they are placing uppon America is mostly that our political leverage wasn't strong enough to deter the development and the testing of the weapons.

I was thinking more along the lines of that the polls were the icing on the cake. Just reinforcing what has been happening between the U.S.-South Korea relations.

South Korea is on the American side, there isn't questioning it....... at the moment. I don't know if you caught my earlier posts, but South Korea is approching the Chinese. Even some of the South Korean media has accused the President Roh of distancing South Korea from the U.S. too quickly. Basically, South Korean government is starting to give the Americans the cold shoulder on certain issues, with the Taiwan Strait issue being the one that caught my attention the most.

Make no mistake, resentment towards the American exist in South Korea. It's been true for years, making the news. What the poll showed was not some kind of misunderstanding. It's more like confirmation in my view.

I think most people in South Korea realize that the North is a major threat to their livelyhood, and maybe even their survival, and they would most likely seek protection from their friends in Washington and Tokyo.

No. Did you see the poll by any chance? They think the U.S. is the threat to their survival, if anything. They do believe that the North can be reunited with the South, though. They don't like Washington right now, and they wish Tokyo got nuked by North Korea. I hate saying this, but I don't think the Koreans will never stop their hatred towards the Japanese. This could someday blow up to Israel-Palestine type situation. What Japan did to the Koreans in the past were unforgivable. But to sustain the level of hate after all these years, it's just sad.

 

[ledhed]

Are you KIDDING ..if the Chinese ever get loose on Japan it will make the koreans look like a pillow fight...They used the chinese for everything from sword practice to bayonette practice to human experiments to chemical warfare test and biological warefare test ,,,....and that when they were not JUST raping them and masacring them...whoa baby the Japanese went at China from the late 20's to the end of 1945...LOTS of hate there...granred they treated the Koreans as a colony and an inferior species...just like they treated anyone else NOT Japanese...Americans ..English...they didnt care..

I was just trying to point out the Korean predicament...they must rely on the US for survival as the type of free / almost free state they now are ..BUT ..they want renunification..those not old enough to remember or those who would like to rewrite history will say IN KOREA that the US keeps the possibility of reunification impossible as a matter of policy ...and Korean politics are no different than any other country...the people want to blame the US a dude will come along to lead the choir and get elected.

Its got to be hard to have a national identity and be under the boot of others no matter how WELL intentioned the boot is ..its still on your neck .
Younger guys with nation pride will always resent being under the controll of other countries. Or at the mercy of anyone .

Its nationalism and simple pride ...and not hard to understand. The politicions just take advantage of and embelish the crap to shine it up for everyone .




BTW Today the news reports that China is not only cracking down hard but they have allowed internet calls for the overthrow of Kim bung to be sent to NK for the first time ever....

 

[ledhed]

Sorry for the double post but todays news is VERY interesting.

Japan is said to be looking into its own NUKES for protection as is Taiwan...


In turn China has cracked down HARD on imports and exports to NK and even allowed internet calls for the overthrow of KIM ILL to get into NK...


They must be really pissed....and they have yet to say a word...

 

[a6m5]

Are you KIDDING ..if the Chinese ever get loose on Japan it will make the koreans look like a pillow fight...They used the chinese for everything from sword practice to bayonette practice to human experiments to chemical warfare test and biological warefare test ,,,....and that when they were not JUST raping them and masacring them...whoa baby the Japanese went at China from the late 20's to the end of 1945...LOTS of hate there...granred they treated the Koreans as a colony and an inferior species...just like they treated anyone else NOT Japanese...Americans ..English...they didnt care..

Where is this coming from? I do agree with you completely. Many Japanese troops didn't even see the Chinese people as equal beings in World War II, and treated them accordingly to their ignorant beliefs(*they thought they knew, when they didn't), but why are you telling me this? Yes, if the Chinese went to war with Japan, it would paint a hellish picture for Japan, I agree, but now I'm more confused than ever.

I was just trying to point out the Korean predicament...they must rely on the US for survival as the type of free / almost free state they now are ..BUT ..they want renunification..those not old enough to remember or those who would like to rewrite history will say IN KOREA that the US keeps the possibility of reunification impossible as a matter of policy ...and Korean politics are no different than any other country...the people want to blame the US a dude will come along to lead the choir and get elected.

Its got to be hard to have a national identity and be under the boot of others no matter how WELL intentioned the boot is ..its still on your neck .
Younger guys with nation pride will always resent being under the controll of other countries. Or at the mercy of anyone .

Its nationalism and simple pride ...and not hard to understand. The politicions just take advantage of and embelish the crap to shine it up for everyone .

Sounds like they are very complex people. Rather than asking their ally for assistance to reunite Korea, they've come to the conclusion that they'll have to distance itself from the U.S. in order for it to happen. I don't know the whole story, but it seems clumsy in my personal opinion.

Sorry for the double post but todays news is VERY interesting.

Japan is said to be looking into its own NUKES for protection as is Taiwan...


In turn China has cracked down HARD on imports and exports to NK and even allowed internet calls for the overthrow of KIM ILL to get into NK...


They must be really pissed....and they have yet to say a word...

Japan and Taiwan arming themselve with nukes sounds as realistic as North Korea actually using theirs. But if it's going to force China to play nice, then by all means.

*When I said "they thought they knew, when they didn't", what I meant was, back in the 30's, 40's, Chinese technology, way of life were very primitive. I've read a book written by a Chinese author that said that many Chinese people couldn't even figure out the water faucet. By witnessing how backward the Chinese were, we(Japanese) mistakenly concluded that we were superior to many of the Chinese people. Obviously, Japanese were the one that had more learning to do.

I'd like to think that we have learned from our mistakes.

 

[ledhed]

Actually the chinese consider all others the barbarians...as do the Japanese as do the islamic tribes as do the Christian west...The US refused to believe the Japanese could fly air cratf because it was thought the slanty eyes didnt work right ...not only that but the racism wemt so deep that they refused to believe they could even build a fighter plane that would work...never mind dominate from when it was built until reallity set in..

Western Culture ..be it Eurocentriv...the British or the US are a bunch of racist ...big time and are just slowly comming around to the idea that there is NO master RACE.

It took Japan a while to figure out that they were not the master race...but not as long as it did the western powers...they still tried to go back to imperialism EVEN after WW II !!!

It one of the huge reasons for the Vietnamese war and the State of Africa today along with the Middle East .

Never MIND what Japan left behind ,, thats been going on for centuries since the island was protected from the mongol Invasion by the "divine wind "


China ..even as the west was slowly carving into slices like a big 'ol pie just sat back and waited the barbarians out and played them against each other...until Japan showed them what REAL barbarians are .


And Zero this isn't aimed at you its just that one group of idiots thinking they are supior to another and had a destiny to fullfill , has led to more misunderstandings and more wars than you have hair .

Its one of the biggest history lessons to learn.

 

[///M-Spec]

This is kind of interesting:

I would have said:

1. North Korea
2. China
3. Pakistan
4. South Korea

I don't understand their "whining". Has the B-52s made a flyover over Pyonyang or something?

The acticle you posted is a perfect example of the kind of US scapegoating I was complaining about last week. Many Koreans are frustrated because their relations with their neighbors to the north are more dictated by US foriegn policy than their own domestic agenda. Basically, they feel powerless to direct their own destiny and they end up resenting the US because of it.

As the older generation --the ones old enough to actually remember the Korean War die off, the number of people who believe US presence in the region is a 'good thing' will continue to drop.

I think it's about time we packed our bags and let the South Koreans handle the North on their own. They have a huge cash surplus these days-- let them buy their own tanks, planes and ships. I don't like the idea of my tax dollars being spent protecting people who spite us because of it.

Hey, they're big boys now, right?


M

 

[ledhed]

The acticle you posted is a perfect example of the kind of US scapegoating I was complaining about last week. Many Koreans are frustrated because their relations with their neighbors to the north are more dictated by US foriegn policy than their own domestic agenda. Basically, they feel powerless to direct their own destiny and they end up resenting the US because of it.

As the older generation --the ones old enough to actually remember the Korean War die off, the number of people who believe US presence in the region is a 'good thing' will continue to drop.

I think it's about time we packed our bags and let the South Koreans handle the North on their own. They have a huge cash surplus these days-- let them buy their own tanks, planes and ships. I don't like the idea of my tax dollars being spent protecting people who spite us because of it.

Hey, they're big boys now, right?


M

I feeling that way about almost all of the world now days ...lets let them start spending some of their GNP towards weapons instead of socialism and defend THEMSELVES instead of having the good 'ol US do it while they feel free to trash us....

But on the other hand you have a sort of Pax Americana....and it wouldn't exist if everyone went around arming themselves back to the brink again.

But it WOULD be a tad usefull if we could get a bit of a unified front against threats instead of the current " but we're making money " we cant hurt them YET...lets see what they do for a while" ...

It would have never taken TEN years and there would be no war in Iraq , if Russia and France and the rest of the UN countries were not sucking of the teat , of the oil for food program...Saddam would have been disarmed and more than likely overthrown internaly ..becuase the oil for food would have WORKED ..instead of providing him with the cashh he used to kill his own people and keep controll over the country.

We do not ever learn..

So China hears "Japan "....💡 wants to rearm with a defensive Nuclear force and Taiwan and the rest of the Area all want NUKES now to protect them from crazy people...and thats what it takes to get them moving to squash Kim bung .

Now all you have to worry about is Kim going nuts and attacking someone to the South to show China whats up...because he lives in the land of OZ and is not in touch with Global reality. He has a whole country full of people who give great parades...almost as good as the Nazi rallies and thinks he can whoop anyones butt ...

"We live in interesting times "

Bwahahahahaha

At least I have beer .


We at least honor our commitments and have kept South Korea free from the fifties and we are still responsible for the defense of Japan...thats the deal we made after WW II and we still have commitments with Taiwan.

So if we leave Korea it screws us up with our force projection for all our other commitments in the region and leaves us with a harder job to do when we go back to Korea to fight off the NK...I doubt they could resist fighting the South if the US wasn't there .

There are still a bunch of them alive who remember the butt kicking they got, and if not for China..they dont exist...BUT hehehe now China and the US are making nice...we have wall mart.

 

[///M-Spec]

"We live in interesting times "

Bwahahahahaha

At least I have beer .

..and wimmen




M

 

[ledhed]

And we live on the EAST coast !.....hehhehehe

 

[///M-Spec]

Hey look, China finally used its pimp hand on North Korea and b&*ch-smacked it into line.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061020/ap_on_re_as/nkorea_nuclear_6

EDIT: And this..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/korea/article/0,,1927637,00.html


M

 

[ledhed]

 

[YSSMAN]

...Now if we can just get Iran to forget about Nuclear weapons...