Official 2011/12 Barclays Premier League Thread

[Brend]

Ugh, Titanic-esque stuff at Wolverhampton today. 👎

 

[Matty]

Yet Evra told the FA he also said he doesn't talk to blacks, kicked him because he's black and said "blacky blacky black" to him. That formed part of his "conviction" for it.

Suarez denies it and only admits to the cultural colloquial "my n*****" which, as I said earlier, hundreds of thousands of young, black males use every day to refer to each other.

The problem with that line of speculation is John Barnes. Barnes is no longer affiliated with the club and suffered racial abuse from his own fans while he was there. While Kenny Dalglish was there.

I don't believe for a second that Barnes and Dalglish would stand up for a racist and their only evidence is Suarez - who is of black-origin himself - saying "my n*****" to another black man.

I will reconfirm that if it's okay to cancel a handshake in case a guy accused of racism has to shake the hand of the guy he allegedly abused, it's a no-brainer to cancel a handshake when a guy convicted of it has to shake the hand of the guy he abused - particularly if the guy shows no remorse because he doesn't believe he was wrong. The situation should simply never have been allowed to happen.

And if you think that's bad, two Aston Villa mascots just refused to shake the hand of the Manchester City mascot!

Agree 100%.

If you were Suarez and had the choice to shake the hand of the guy who in your opinion got you banned from your job for 8 weeks over alligations I would imagine you wouldn't 10 times out of 10.

I also think Evra was wrong to grab his hand afterwards. If Suarez didn't want to it's his choice.

And I think Evra should get some sort of ban for trying to rise Suarez by stirring the crowd in front of him. Very poor sportsmanship.

And personally I think Ferguson was very harsh with his comments on Suarez saying "... I think he should never play for Liverpool FC again..."

Btw, I'm a Liverpool supporter and back Suarez 100%, so you may think my views are biased. But I think that's a very fair view of what happened Saturday.

 

[marchi]

Agree 100%.

If you were Suarez and had the choice to shake the hand of the guy who in your opinion got you banned from your job for 8 weeks over alligations I would imagine you wouldn't 10 times out of 10.

I also think Evra was wrong to grab his hand afterwards. If Suarez didn't want to it's his choice.

And I think Evra should get some sort of ban for trying to rise Suarez by stirring the crowd in front of him. Very poor sportsmanship.

And personally I think Ferguson was very harsh with his comments on Suarez saying "... I think he should never play for Liverpool FC again..."

Btw, I'm a Liverpool supporter and back Suarez 100%, so you may think my views are biased. But I think that's a very fair view of what happened Saturday.

Where is Dalglish's ban for his disgraceful comments over the past 3 months? In the end though, it doesn't really matter. Liverpool and Dalglish especially were bitten more on the arse by the no handshake then anything they've done in this debacle.


Again, it's not an allegation when you're convicted, and the reason you were convicted, was because you couldn't prove that it wasn't said.

Seriously, it's mind boggling that people still claim he's innocent. I've never seen an innocent person not appeal.

 

[Sach]

Evra made a half-arsed attempt at the handshake as well. Suarez passed him by, but Evra made the scene for the cameras.

Watch from about :22-:27. He approaches Suarez's handshake differently. And Ferdinand lied through his teeth as well. He was never going to shake Suarez's hand that day. It was not a reactionary thing, you can clearly see he's not going to do it from the start. He never even attempted to look up at him.

 

[vrajdeber]

At least Arsenal are back where they belong, in the TOP 4!

 

[marchi]

Evra made a half-arsed attempt at the handshake as well. Suarez passed him by, but Evra made the scene for the cameras.

Watch from about :22-:27. He approaches Suarez's handshake differently. And Ferdinand lied through his teeth as well. He was never going to shake Suarez's hand that day. It was not a reactionary thing, you can clearly see he's not going to do it from the start. He never even attempted to look up at him.

The hand is still there which is far more than Suarez offered. Are you seriously trying to blame Evra when Saurez admitted he wasn't going to shake his hand at all yesterday?

How does Ferdinand lie through his teeth? That's a rubbish angle 'something Liverpool fans have tried to use to defend Suarez' but he clearly goes to move his hand out, see's what happened and then drags it across his body away for Suarez. You can see his hand movement for christs sake.



Anyway is was good to see Ferguson giving Paul Pogba a spot on the bench. Must give him alot of confidence. Going to be a special player.

 

[Famine]

Again, it's not an allegation when you're convicted, and the reason you were convicted, was because you couldn't prove that it wasn't said.

Which is odd, because the law in our country and most other largely civilised ones requires the prosecution to prove guilt and does not require the defence to prove innocence. Innocent until proven guilty. There are fantastic logical reasons for this.

The FA, of course, do things differently. This is also a problem.

Seriously, it's mind boggling that people still claim he's innocent. I've never seen an innocent person not appeal.

I have. When the penalty for an appeal failing is potentially higher than the original penalty.

Incidentally, I'm not saying he's innocent. Just that he believes he did nothing wrong in this instance. The same can be said for certain murderers and rapists - who are clearly guilty of a crime but believe they did nothing wrong. That's why what I was saying was an explanation of his actions and not an "idiotic" justification (thanks for that, by the way) of them.

 

[marchi]

Which is odd, because the law in our country and most other largely civilised ones requires the prosecution to prove guilt and does not require the defence to prove innocence. Innocent until proven guilty. There are fantastic logical reasons for this.

The FA, of course, do things differently. This is also a problem.



I have. When the penalty for an appeal failing is potentially higher than the original penalty.

Incidentally, I'm not saying he's innocent. Just that he believes he did nothing wrong in this instance. The same can be said for certain murderers and rapists - who are clearly guilty of a crime but believe they did nothing wrong. That's why what I was saying was an explanation of his actions and not an "idiotic" justification (thanks for that, by the way) of them.

The only reason suarez thinks he is innocent is because the people around him keep justifying it. Unlike Muderer's and rapist, he's not mentally challenged 'although...'


The fa performed a independent inquiry. They are not bound by the classification of the English legal system as it does not fall under a common law court, although if anything, the FA handled it in a civil style from the common law system. On the balance of probability, Suarez could not argue a strong enough case. The fact that his own testimony came in contrast to the very people that were trying to help defend him is good enough to undermine his credibility.

 

[Famine]

The only reason suarez thinks he is innocent is because the people around him keep justifying it. Unlike Muderer's and rapist, he's not mentally challenged 'although...'

He once bit an opponent. Also, he's a professional footballer - these are not bright people (with the exceptions finding themselves subject to rumours of their sexuality). See: Mario Balotelli.

He believes he did nothing wrong.

The fa performed a independent inquiry. They are not bound by the classification of the English legal system as it does not fall under a common law court, although if anything, the FA handled it in a civil style from the common law system. On the balance of probability, Suarez could not argue a strong enough case. The fact that his own testimony came in contrast to the very people that were trying to help defend him is good enough to undermine his credibility.

As I said, a kangaroo court. The FA's verdict simply shouldn't be taken as fact because "proving your innocence" is logically impossible - which is why no court in any civilised country in the world requires it.

The FA are largely without logic a lot of the time. See: Vincent Kompany.

 

[marchi]

He once bit an opponent. Also, he's a professional footballer - these are not bright people (with the exceptions finding themselves subject to rumours of their sexuality). See: Mario Balotelli.

He believes he did nothing wrong.



As I said, a kangaroo court. The FA's verdict simply shouldn't be taken as fact because "proving your innocence" is logically impossible - which is why no court in any civilised country in the world requires it.

The FA are largely without logic a lot of the time. See: Vincent Kompany.

No but the balance of probabilities is logically possible. And entire civil court system is based off of it in 3 of the most civilised countries in the English speaking world.

As far as I see it, the FA allowed both parties to stake their case. The Suarez defence was filled with contradictions, but also importantly, included a confession that a racial term was used in attempt to windup an opposing player.

Something that Suarez admits to last week in an interview with a reporter.

 

[Emptyone]

Mick McCarthy is gone from Wolves as of today, as he seemed a decent guy, but now I can't see Wolves escaping relegation never mind who they replace him with, and will inevitable sell better players in the summer like Doyle. Back to the Championship for a while me thinks

 

[Famine]

No but the balance of probabilities is logically possible.

Nope. It's always subjective.

And entire civil court system is based off of it in 3 of the most civilised countries in the English speaking world.

Civil law doesn't result in a conviction - at least not in the same sense. But you're quite right - Suarez hasn't been convicted of racial abuse. It's just that the FA think what he says he said is less truthful than what someone else says he said, for whatever subjective reasons they have decided upon. Of course what this means is that Suarez has not been declared guilty of racial abuse, just that he can't prove that he didn't racially abuse someone.

Either way, this is obfuscation of the point. Suarez does not believe he did anything wrong.


I'm curious why Terry's case - which has involved no banning and one use of the word "black" - has ended up with a criminal prosecution while Suarez's - which saw him banned for 2 months (ish) and allegedly involved multiple uses of the word "n****"" - has not. Surely calling someone "n*****" as many times as Evra says he did is more worthy of a criminal prosecution than calling someone a "black ****" once as Ferdinand says Terry did..?

 

[marchi]

Nope. It's always subjective.



Civil law doesn't result in a conviction - at least not in the same sense. But you're quite right - Suarez hasn't been convicted of racial abuse. It's just that the FA think what he says he said is less truthful than what someone else says he said, for whatever subjective reasons they have decided upon. Of course what this means is that Suarez has not been declared guilty of racial abuse, just that he can't prove that he didn't racially abuse someone.

Either way, this is obfuscation of the point. Suarez does not believe he did anything wrong.





I'm curious why Terry's case - which has involved no banning and one use of the word "black" - has ended up with a criminal prosecution while Suarez's - which saw him banned for 2 months (ish) and allegedly involved multiple uses of the word "n****"" - has not. Surely calling someone "n*****" as many times as Evra says he did is more worthy of a criminal prosecution than calling someone a "black ****" once as Ferdinand says Terry did..?

I believe it's due to legislative laws that the FA adhere to, in that in such a case, they can't pass judgement until after the case is heard before a magistrate. Probably something to do with setting precedent and obstructing justice.

It's also because Terry's case was brought up by a member of the public and not a referee/player.


Thing is Suarez admits to racially abuse at another player. That is why they find him guilty and why Liverpool didn't appeal. They shot themselves in the foot.

The balance of probabilities is subject to facts of the case. If Suarez story changes every two seconds, it's not exactly fact now is it?

 

[Liquid]

Other news: Massacre at Molyneux. My prediction? McCarthy won't last much longer. Wolves played well second half, but West Brom were deadly.

It was pretty obvious, but I'm still going to glorify my prediction.


Who's going to replace him? Sure there are managers out of work but not many who have experience of successfully staving off relegation from the Premiership. McCarthy's a good boss and if they'd have gone down with him in charge, there's no doubt he'd almost certainly take them back up again.

Also: BBC claim that the bookies are touting Rafa Benitez as one of the favourites. I doubt that...

 

[mp10]

It was pretty obvious, but I'm still going to glorify my prediction.


Who's going to replace him? Sure there are managers out of work but not many who have experience of successfully staving off relegation from the Premiership. McCarthy's a good boss and if they'd have gone down with him in charge, there's no doubt he'd almost certainly take them back up again.

Also: BBC claim that the bookies are touting Rafa Benitez as one of the favourites. I doubt that...

Phil brown maybe, he left preston no too long ago, or even Steve bruce. I would really like to see Ian Holloway back in the premiership too, he was a class manager, and who can't forget those press interviews

 

[Liquid]

Phil brown maybe, he left preston no too long ago, or even Steve bruce. I would really like to see Ian Holloway back in the premiership too, he was a class manager, and who can't forget those press interviews

Phil Brown - Rubbish in the top flight
Steve Bruce - Perhaps, but I've never personally rated him as a manager
Ollie - He's doing a sound job with Blackpool, who are on the up again. I don't think he'd leave them for a sinking ship.

 

[Matty]

It was pretty obvious, but I'm still going to glorify my prediction.

Who's going to replace him? Sure there are managers out of work but not many who have experience of successfully staving off relegation from the Premiership. McCarthy's a good boss and if they'd have gone down with him in charge, there's no doubt he'd almost certainly take them back up again.

Also: BBC claim that the bookies are touting Rafa Benitez as one of the favourites. I doubt that...

I've a funny feeling Rafa will be more interested at the seat in Tottenham which may open up soon.

 

[Liquid]

MOTD Video of the handshake

Suarez was a clot for not shaking Evra's hand, Evra was a clot for celebrating right in front of Suarez.

Ferdinand is one of the most senior players at United. He should have done better too.

 

[Sach]

The hand is still there which is far more than Suarez offered. Are you seriously trying to blame Evra when Saurez admitted he wasn't going to shake his hand at all yesterday?

Do you seriously think that statement means anything? One guy was 'convicted' of racism, the other guy is black. Now how do you think this situation can be put to be as quickly as possible? It was a PR statement, and proves nothing at all. And from a neutral point of view, Evra is despicable.

How does Ferdinand lie through his teeth? That's a rubbish angle

There are two angles there, and neither are rubbish. Ferdinand never even looked him in the eye, something United fans are denying.

he clearly goes to move his hand out, see's what happened and then drags it across his body away for Suarez.

The only thing he clearly does in that video is change how he approaches Suarez's handshake, and clearly make a half-assed attempt at it. Then he clearly causes the whole scene by grabbing the guy's arm, which is actually worse for the situation than whether or not Luis wanted to shake hands.

 

[TyrrellRacing]

I think Wolves were right to let Mick go. After 2 and a half years in the top flight, they shouldn't be battling relegation yet again. Had they kept him it's unlikely they would've escaped it and even if they did they'd be back in the same place next year.

I've never rated Steve Bruce either. Seems to always get sacked/leave after less than 2 years. Alan Curbishley (haven't heard that name for a while) is looking the favourite and I think he would do pretty good. Warnock I don't think would be a bad choice either.

 

[Liquid]

Warnock I don't think would be a bad choice either.

Whether his own fault or not, he hasn't got enough top flight experience. Relegation with Sheffield and not much time with QPR.

How long has Curbishley been out of a job? Must be about 4 years now.

 

[TyrrellRacing]

Pretty sure West Ham was Curbishley's last job. My memory is abit hazy on it but I recall him doing well getting them up to mid table. Warnock was very unlucky to go down with Sheffield and the QPR sacking was harsh. Looking at the odds on the next manager I think one of those two are the most likely to get it and do a good job. Solksjaer and Billy Davies are the other two in the frame and I really can't see anything other than relegation if they get it. Holloway I can't see leaving Blackpool, Bruce isn't very good so that leaves Warnock and Curbishley who I think have the best chance of avoiding relegation.

 

[Mike Rotch]

David O'Leary!

Unrelated, but I see Ranger's are about to go into administration .

 

[Matty]

David O'Leary!

Unrelated, but I see Ranger's are about to go into administration .

Good news for Celtic then..

 

[marchi]

Do you seriously think that statement means anything? One guy was 'convicted' of racism, the other guy is black. Now how do you think this situation can be put to be as quickly as possible? It was a PR statement, and proves nothing at all. And from a neutral point of view, Evra is despicable.




There are two angles there, and neither are rubbish. Ferdinand never even looked him in the eye, something United fans are denying.




The only thing he clearly does in that video is change how he approaches Suarez's handshake, and clearly make a half-assed attempt at it. Then he clearly causes the whole scene by grabbing the guy's arm, which is actually worse for the situation than whether or not Luis wanted to shake hands.

I love that the French hate Evra. It's just like Cantona all over again.

If Suarez had shaken his hand, it would be put to bed. We wouldn't have 4 days of the press absolutely destroying him.

Evra had every right to make an example out of poor little Suarez. He's the epitome of scum in world football and he should be made an example out of. Of course if you read my argument, you'd see I was talking about Ferdinand and pulling his hand away as the situation unfolded. He see's the whole thing and then moves his hand away as Saurez puts his out.

Mate the only people that came out of this as despicable is LFC. What Evra did celebrating at the end was over the top, but nobody gives a rats arse. Read the world news, nobody is reporting Evra's celebrations. They're reporting Suarez ignorance.

 

[Liquid]

Having a separate 'Lower Leagues' thread would simply die so this thread has pretty much expanded into 'English Football Thread 2011/12' in my eyes. So...

No sooner have Huddersfield sacked Lee Clark and co. whilst lying fourth and having a good season, they move to make an appointment. Huddersfield had lost just three of their last fifty five games.

Much like Warnock being dismissed from QPR it all seems so coincidental.

---

In other news, Curbishley rules himself out of the Wolves job so Bruce is free to take charge. I've never really rated him that much so I don't anticipate a Hodgson-esque revival from Wolves.

 

[Sach]

What is a good Championship team for me to start following?

 

[Liquid]

What is a good Championship team for me to start following?

I recommend Blackpool. Their manager, Ian 'Ollie' Holloway, is a very popular chap. They were in the Premiership last season and played some spectacular attacking but were relegated because they just couldn't defend. They're doing well again this season.

 

[Matty]

I love that the French hate Evra. It's just like Cantona all over again.

If Suarez had shaken his hand, it would be put to bed. We wouldn't have 4 days of the press absolutely destroying him.

Evra had every right to make an example out of poor little Suarez. He's the epitome of scum in world football and he should be made an example out of. Of course if you read my argument, you'd see I was talking about Ferdinand and pulling his hand away as the situation unfolded. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJwIXER1P7o">YouTube Link</a> He see's the whole thing and then moves his hand away as Saurez puts his out.

Mate the only people that came out of this as despicable is LFC. What Evra did celebrating at the end was over the top, but nobody gives a rats arse. Read the world news, nobody is reporting Evra's celebrations. They're reporting Suarez ignorance.

Hmm, okaaay.. So Suarez not shaking the hand of someone 'he believes' wrongly accused him of racism is wrong?

Let me put it too you this way, if you were moving boxes in a shop, and you said 'Put it near the back' quite loudly to someone and he put it near the back of the room but there happened to be a black guy that was also very near where the box was being placed.

What if he got agitated and came up to you accusing you of saying 'Put it near the black' and brought you to court over it. And the jury believed him over you and you had to go to jail for 3 months and got yourself labeled as a racist, when you think ('know') your right. Would you shake that mans hand as soon as you walk out the gate of prison? You know you wouldn't because you hadn't done anything wrong. Well anyway I know I wouldn't..

And that's as similar to a real world situation as I can put it.

 

[Ross]

What is a good Championship team for me to start following?

Either Reading (My local team), Southampton or Notts Forest