Official GTP Online Racing Discussion Thread

[Furinkazen]

How is it complicated? The focus here is to find a way to better structure the race series within GT Planet. If you look back at the pass you notice that have a large enter list and attendance all have been well structured. For example PURE was the first racing series not like the GTP WRC TT to put a foot print within the GTP racing community. The GTP WRC has evolved three time since I've been a member and this is why drivers keep flocking. Both of these racing bodies have developed a professional core and this is why they have such a large field.

Yep, I have some well organised championships but without need for all these extras. You don't need to be over complex to structure it.

We talk about in one post making it easier for newer drivers. Then we suggest standardised ops, mandatory spreadsheets, and such. That doesn't add up.

Andrew, GTP already has a search function... And ctrl f on a computer keyboard is handy...

 

[polarbear345]

No one should have the right to reserve a time slot. No one.


I have documented proof, that I've changed my own time slots for ITCC for both Furinkazen's ToCA and polarbear345's Rolex Sports Car Series. I don't mind that. But if someone came along and kicked me out of my Saturday timeslots, I'd be very upset.


Having a series that runs on two days for different groups of people, I know that the timezones/timeslots can make or break a series. Since I expect a majority of touring car fans to be in Europe, I schedule ITCC around the European timezones, and a bit for the North American timeslots...


It's perfectly fine to have a NASCAR series overlap a touring car series... But if you put four touring car series together against each other, on the same timeslot, that would cost a lot of attendance rates from all 4 series.

Can't tell if this is aimed at me or not.

I am not saying anyone should have a specific time slot. Everyone should just do what works for them, without messing with anyone else too much. Example: Don't make a touring car series that will run into ToCA race time.


I think we're losing sight of what this thread is about. This is for more general, universal improvements. Some people (I think at least) are getting way too picky and thinking about it too hard.

Really, all that needs to be done is make general information easier and faster to find. Better calender, easy to find dates and times, etc.

 

[Zuel]

Let's make a standardized OP.


Every time a member creates an OP, they can fill out basic information: (cars, car type, racing type, etc.) With multiple choice for the type of racing (NASCAR, touring cars,) keywords (Civic, Accord, Ferrari, BMW) for the cars, and a multiple choice option for "time-trials" or "racing."


Then, someone who wants to find the series can search "BMW touring car racing" on the GTP thread search and find the series (ITCC, ToCA, Bankfin, VLN) that use a BMW touring car.

A standardized OP will make starting a series easier.

 

[Furinkazen]

Well I automatically would fail that as I split my OPs into multiple posts to make maintaining them easier.

I agree with Polar, we get too picky.

 

[polarbear345]

I think a checklist when creating a series thread could be useful. Just the basic stuff that you have to check off; Date, Time, Car rules, that kind of stuff.

Sort of like the "I accept the terms and conditions" boxes, but in a checklist type form.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Well I automatically would fail that as I split my OPs into multiple posts to make maintaining them easier.

I agree with Polar, we get too picky.

So do I. I mean, sort of like a keyword search function that's invisible to everyone unless they're searching for a specific type of series.

 

[polarbear345]

Just thinking through my fingers here, but what about thread tags? Example for Rolex:

Multiclass, DP, GT, Grand am

 

[Zuel]

Yep, I have some well organised championships but without need for all these extras. You don't need to be over complex to structure it.

We talk about in one post making it easier for newer drivers. Then we suggest standardised ops, mandatory spreadsheets, and such. That doesn't add up.

Having a well organised series is everyone goal, you have to find the right people to make it successful. It's easy to make a series successful if you have the right people on your friends. Though for the people that wish to have a series that has more people involved rather than who's on you list you need structuring.

Like I said before "There are two sides of the coin here, a side for the core driver and a side for the casual driver" A casual driver would like to have a series that allows them the freedom to do as they please within the rules of that series. A core driver like a series that has structured ruling in every aspect.

The core areas that is being discussed here are try to find a medium to differ core from casual racing series, structuring race dates, performance ruling if developed ( strictly for core series following GTP rulings), better placement for new drivers (members) and how to find what series that is being sought after. No one is making anything complicated. Only thyself can make things complicated.

 

[Zuel]

Just thinking through my fingers here, but what about thread tags? Example for Rolex:

Multiclass, DP, GT, Grand am

I can see where you are coming from. What about thread highlights. If someone has a series modeled after a real world series that series could be place in a highlight. The project I'm working on clearly defines this as it has sections for Rolex, Super GT, FIA-ALMS, NASCAR, British Touring, FIA GT, Formula 2, F1 and so.

 

[Oniichan]

Ok here is my view of things.

Most series on GTP cater to US and EUR only. The ORS is an Australian/New Zealand only racing series that run on Australian times. We don't allow our international friends in the series as Australia is quite far from the US and EUR which means we have laggy races. As my series all run on heavy damage this is unacceptable. So in order to maintain a professional and clean series we restrict it to AU/NZ only to ensure drivers get the best they can out of the series.

Now having a standardised set of regulations is a definite NO for the ORS. As a standardised set of regulations do not keep racing close. It only keeps it close for those in the same skill/division. I cater my series to all the drivers ability and split drivers into different Tiers (divisions). I then set regulations on cars to ensure that the guys in lower divisions can race bumper to bumper with the top drivers/aliens. I don't see this on other series. All i see is if you don't have the skill to be at the front then try harder. Some drivers unfortunately cannot progress when the carrot they are chasing is too far ahead.

Think of it like this. If you are in the top 1000 on the world time trial leaderboard. So you download the no.1 guys replay and try chase him. You wouldn't be able to catch him. So what you would do is try catch the guy in the top 700, then 500, then 250 etc till you work your way to that top 10 your aiming for. This helps push you. If the car infront just drives away it kills your confidence and you give up.

This is why i cater my series to all drivers and ensure that the carrot is closer for them to chase and it shows as drivers are moving up ranks into higher tiers each season. So having a standardised regulation of cars would kill that and only those that are of the same skill would be racing together with no hope of really improving.

You want racing to be close and exciting for all those in the series and that's why each and every series on GTP has their own car regulations to ensure the racing is close and exciting. As most series have regulars so they know how to keep the racing closer. Though those series unlike mine don't really cater for all skill levels in the 1 league. Most will split the league into 2 divisions running different times/days to the main division.

Ranting a bit here. So to get back to it.

The ORS wouldn't run a GTP standard of car regulations. Having it optional ofcourse is great as anyone wanting to start a new league could use them to help get people to join and get a series underway.

Now for the calendar thing. Forcing people to run 10 or 5 week long seasons isn't the way to go. Having it optional is fine. Like i said it doesn't really affect my league as its Australia/Nz only and there isn't any other AU/NZ only series that run the same cars or times as me.

I'll give more feedback into the other areas people bought up later on. I'm at work at the moment so time is limited.

 

[Zuel]

GT6 has a tier system already in place, I believe 8 if my memory serves me correctly. I know a read it some here in the news but I can't remember which articular. The WRS qualifying structure would be great. I've been prompted into asking the WRC board how it works and if I could use it for my series.

 

[Zuel]

If a standardized GTP car ruling was developed it would be your chose to use it or not. This type of ruling would make it seamlessly for members to run in a multitude of series and classes without making any major alterations to the cars power or have a multitude of the same car.

 

[Oniichan]

No doubt the WRS division qualifying procedure is great. I just wish more series implemented it and regulation cars per division to keep the racing close for all in the series. For a slower driver to rock up to a league week after week only to be spending the whole race doing a time trial by himself while getting lapped makes people leave.

This is a big factor to why some series lose drivers. They don't cater for all skill levels. If they did then the turn out will be bigger. As the driver improves he moves up in divisions. Something all series should look at if they want to keep people coming back.

 

[oink83]

The WRC qualifying structure would be great. I've been prompted into asking the WRC board how it works and if I could use it for my series.

Just so everyone is clear about what exactly you are talking about, since you've misquoted it a couple times, its WRS (Weekly race series). 3D3 racing that you mentioned earlier effectively runs the Online racing aspect of the WRS, which in itself is just weekly time trial events.

Also, the way that the GTP_Tag qualifier works, I don't think that it's likely that they will allow other series' to "borrow" the formula, but I couldn't say for definite.

 

[Zuel]

No doubt the WRS division qualifying procedure is great. I just wish more series implemented it and regulation cars per division to keep the racing close for all in the series. For a slower driver to rock up to a league week after week only to be spending the whole race doing a time trial by himself while getting lapped makes people leave.

This is a big factor to why some series lose drivers. They don't cater for all skill levels. If they did then the turn out will be bigger. As the driver improves he moves up in divisions. Something all series should look at if they want to keep people coming back.

This is just I want to do with my series, implement the WRS qualifying procedure along with a tier to place drivers with other drivers of their skills. Also have feeder series for upcoming drivers so they can work their way up to the upper series.

 

[polarbear345]

So are we now discussing ones issue or giving our opinions on how to make this section better?

Anywho... I don't really think the spot race section should be moved. It's a different vibe there and I just don't know how it would work merged together. Maybe make it one of the options above in the section that intrest section is currently in.

 

[Oniichan]

Just so everyone is clear about what exactly you are talking about, since you've misquoted it a couple times, its WRS (Weekly race series). 3D3 racing that you mentioned earlier effectively runs the Online racing aspect of the WRS, which in itself is just weekly time trial events.

Also, the way that the GTP_Tag qualifier works, I don't think that it's likely that they will allow other series' to "borrow" the formula, but I couldn't say for definite.

There is nothing stopping people from doing what the GTP Qualifier does for their series. GTP can't say hey nobody is allowed to setup divisions via a time trial. I myself will be setting up a ORS license for GT6 to keep racing close and drivers interested. I won't be going into detail as its not related to what we are on about.

The GTP qualifier is great as is and will be with GT6 as a way of leagues already knowing where to put that driver and what division. The problem is to run a qualifier you need make a GTP tag and alot of people refuse to do that. Which is understandable. Total waste of time imo to make a new PSN tag with GTP on it just for a qualifier. It has no meaning. Again getting off topic.

Back to the issue. The way i see it now the forum works fine for series/leagues.

I'd agree with combining spot races and interest check forums together. As for the other leagues maybe we should standarize the titles to make it easier for those to search.

Example would be;

ITTC | Season 16 | Touring Car Championship
PURE | Season 12 | NASCAR Series
ORS | Season 10 | GT3 Championship
PURE | Season 4 | Corvette RM Series

Keeps it simple and easy to search. Though most do that already. At the end of the day new people joining the forums to set up leagues will type whatever they feel and then that would be the job of the moderaters to change titles. Real hassle if you ask me. Just have a rule setup where you title your topic to be;

<club name> | <season> | <Car, Class etc> | <spots open>

Once again as this is all optional. At the end of the day people will end up doing what they want or feel best suits their league.

 

[Snaeper]

No. If every single GTP series all take place at the same time, we're spreading the competition thin. I believe the opposite should happen. Fewer series, more competitors per series. More series, fewer competitors per series.

Like, I can compete with ToCA and BTCC, but if we had 8 touring car series... crap, so many options for the other GTP members to join.

Block system or not, if 8 people want to make Touring Car series at the same time as yours, it's not going to happen any more or less with my system. This is a very poor example you're using to dismiss my idea.

In fact, the block system would work to sort out duplicate series even easier. Because I (for example) can say "This is when TOCA and BTCC end, so that would be a good time for you to start, since all of their drivers will be available".

I feel like you're still going to miss the point though, so I'll work on a visual for you. Edit: Here's a visual on how Friday's at 6pm would work. No series is the same, there's at least 3-4 series starting every five weeks, with plenty of options available for drivers. Some 5-race series alternate with each other every five weeks. Let's pretend the Red bar with white letters is a Touring Car series, other example touring car series on this fictional GTPlanet would be run by organizers who chose to race on Saturday's at 3pm and another who chose to race on Saturday's at 6pm. They did this so their series wouldn't overlap. Meanwhile, Event 2 is an Endurance GT event with five races. They run their short seasons every other 5-week block. At the bottom, you have a modern Sports Car event that runs a full 15-week calendar (Event 20). He then takes 5-weeks off to test and develop (maybe even participate in another series) and then starts things up again with another 15-week calendar. Event 17 is a vintage multi-class Sports Car event. They start off in Week 1 with a 10 week schedule. The series is quite popular, so when they come back after a short break, they run a 15-week schedule. All the meanwhile, a number of users run short series to try things out. Most are unsuccessful and do not appear again. Others may move to different times that better suit the organizer and members needs and are not seen here again. All of this happens on GTPlanet already, but with no organization or standardization of calendar events.

Now, there have been about 10 touring car series (at least) here on GTP for GT5. ITCC is one of ten. ToCA, Bankfin, BTCC, WTCC, etc. And suddenly there are too many options and too few competitors to fill the grids. No one likes races with 5 cars.

So it's happened before and it will happen again, why are you accusing my idea of creating more of these series? They're created anyways!

Please don't synchronize the racing series, because otherwise there will not be an off-season of one series (Bankfin/ITCC/ToCA) for the others to get a full grid, whilst the planners/organizers of ITCC/Bankfin/ToCA) plan the regulations for the next season. That's just how it works.

Yes there would. ITCC takes a 15 week calendar slot. Once you finish, BTCC picks up the drivers to do a 10 Week Calendar Slot, once he finishes, you can do another 15 week season after him. This way you don't hog your drivers to prevent them from entering another series, you get off time, BTCC gets off time, everybody wins.

No one should have the right to reserve a time slot. No one.

No one is suggesting anything about reserving a time slot. If 5 people say they want to run their race at 6pm on Friday's... 5 people run their race at 6pm on Friday's. Nothing changes from how a series is run now, aside from recommended start and end dates to make your drivers available to other series. This renders everything you say below moot point.

I have documented proof, that I've changed my own time slots for ITCC for both Furinkazen's ToCA and polarbear345's Rolex Sports Car Series. I don't mind that. But if someone came along and kicked me out of my Saturday timeslots, I'd be very upset.


Having a series that runs on two days for different groups of people, I know that the timezones/timeslots can make or break a series. Since I expect a majority of touring car fans to be in Europe, I schedule ITCC around the European timezones, and a bit for the North American timeslots...


It's perfectly fine to have a NASCAR series overlap a touring car series... But if you put four touring car series together against each other, on the same timeslot, that would cost a lot of attendance rates from all 4 series.

Again, there's nothing stopping anyone from doing that now without the Block system... so you can't use it as an example to discredit my idea.

 

[Zuel]

Just so everyone is clear about what exactly you are talking about, since you've misquoted it a couple times, its WRS (Weekly race series). 3D3 racing that you mentioned earlier effectively runs the Online racing aspect of the WRS, which in itself is just weekly time trial events.

Also, the way that the GTP_Tag qualifier works, I don't think that it's likely that they will allow other series' to "borrow" the formula, but I couldn't say for definite.

Sorry for my typo's, I type in a hurry at times. I didn't realize that the WRC 3D3 F1 race that was held over the weekend was a Time Trail. The thought of using the WRS qualifying stucture for my series is a idea to make the racing more competitive. Rather than have strings of drivers here and there or having to adjust cars performance.

So are we now discussing ones issue or giving our opinions on how to make this section better?

Discussing ideas and opinions. 👍

 

[oink83]

There is nothing stopping people from doing what the GTP Qualifier does for their series. GTP can't say hey nobody is allowed to setup divisions via a time trial. I myself will be setting up a ORS license for GT6 to keep racing close and drivers interested. I won't be going into detail as its not related to what we are on about.

The GTP qualifier is great as is and will be with GT6 as a way of leagues already knowing where to put that driver and what division. The problem is to run a qualifier you need make a GTP tag and alot of people refuse to do that. Which is understandable. Total waste of time imo to make a new PSN tag with GTP on it just for a qualifier. It has no meaning. Again getting off topic.

I never said there was, I was just responding to Zuel regarding the use of the formula...whatever. In regard to the GTP tag, you say it's a waste of time, but is it any different to alot of what has been suggested here already. Uniformity. I don't personally support idea, but I'll play devils advocate. If people agree with the idea of uniform regs and uniform this that and the other, why not agree with a single, uniform division, where everyone uses a uniform tag for any GTP league. The time arguement is pretty much obsolete (as far as GT5 goes anyhow, since it takes the best part of 30 minutes to have a levelled up new account). Then everyone who wants to race in a series on GTP, whether it be WRS or otherwise, has to use said GTP tag registered and qualified username.

As I said, I don't agree with it, but it's scarcely different to other things that have been suggested already here. What makes the leagues here so great is the diversity and freedom for creativity.

I didn't realize that the WRC 3D3 F1 race that was held over the weekend was a Time Trail.

It was an online race, lol. 3D3 hosts weekly races based on the WRS weekly time trials, but also creates original series and event racing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVait2lgJ8M

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Woah, hang on... The ITCC always seems to run with various different driver skill levels just fine. The cars are even, the drivers not. However, we run with draft, open practice sessions, and (especially this season) anyone can ask me to personally help them to improve. I don't think I'm the fastest driver in ITCC, because I'm not really the fastest. I run a fast lap here and there and get poles, but I'm not the fastest...

But I'm a front-runner. I still learn from Jammy and the other ITCC aliens (Gedi, Lancer, Furi) but I offer up my own advice to the "ITCC Rising Star Championship" drivers, hoping that they'll achieve their goals and be happy to race.


If you implement something to try to balance the drivers outside of draft, and personal coaching/assistance, well... It's not going to turn out as well in ITCC. We have grids that are split by nothing. Whiskymaser is an example of a driver I'm assisting. In ITCC season 1, his best start was last, and so was his best finish. In season 2, he rarely got out of last. In season 3, he's now qualifying in the top 10 every week (7th (?) out of 13 last week) and so I think he's improving a lot.


Both systems work just fine... But my system works for me.

 

[Oniichan]

Then everyone who wants to race in a series on GTP, whether it be WRS or otherwise, has to use said GTP tag registered and qualified username.

This what i mean. I know you don't agree with it as i don't either. The whole GTP tag is pointless. Let drivers qualify and compete in the WRS without the whole need for a GTP tag. This way more people run the qualifier and we get a better view of all drivers on GTP's skill level. That way each league knows right of the bat where to put them.

Again just an idea/opinion on how to move forward as i personally believe the whole need of a GTP_ tag on their username prevents alot of people from joining.

As for the ITTC i have nothing against how they choose to coach their drivers. Each series is different. In my series i can have a div 3 bronze driver right of the bat battling against a div 1 gold driver bumper to bumper for a large portion of the race. That's how my tier system is design. It gives competitors the drive they need to get faster. As they join more and more ORS seasons they move up in tiers till eventually they can go head to head with the best without any handicaps. Again this is how i run mine which is different to others. Not telling people how they should run it. Just giving other leagues that are struggling to pull numbers an option to keep their series interesting.

 

[Zuel]

I myself will be setting up a ORS license for GT6 to keep racing close and drivers interested.

The World GT Challenge series I developed required drivers to have it.

​

It was an online race, lol. 3D3 hosts weekly races based on the WRS weekly time trials, but also creates original series and event racing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVait2lgJ8M

I thought it was a race but I didn't know it was based of the WRS TT's

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

ITCC, though, uses the opposite system to do the same thing. Surprisingly, we need nothing but draft to keep the racing close. Last week at Monza, the very same guy who was always struggling to get a top ten (turbo_snail) in the early rounds of the season scored a win - yes, win - against me in Round 5. The early rounds and the current rounds were all very closely contested because of nothing outside of the draft.

Trial Mountain didn't have quite the close finish of Grand Valley East, but that's just what the draft does. It makes for close racing, where the slower drivers can see where they're going wrong in the corners, while still giving them the chance to win. If they make a small mistake, they lose a position or two. Then, they get back in line, draft their way back up to the front, and try to hang on without a mistake. Then the final lap comes, and everyone goes four-wide on the finish straight doing their best to win.


Turbo_snail is learning a lot. Adam46 is learning a lot. Sparkytooth is learning a lot. They've all won ITCC races. My system does show who's fast and slow, but it also gives everyone a chance to race, learn, and win.


I'm not a fan of the WRS tag thing, putting drivers together based on talent because I doubt that they will learn from the best. Quite the opposite, they'll learn from the fastest driver in their division, which may be the wrong way to drive that they learned from a different fastest guy in a different division... And before you know it, everyone's making the wrong sorts of mistakes, which will make them slower.

 

[Wardez]

Hmm, let's try and shift focus away from our own series for a bit and talk about helping the community in general. This thread's turning into a bit of, "well this is how I do it."

We already know how you guys run things and what's worked. It's not like you come from distant planets, everyone reads each other's threads you know.

What you guys can do is try to imagine yourselves as being newcomers to the forum and this section, what's lacking? Does it feel inviting or not? Do the sections seem confusing? Etc.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Don't get me wrong, Wardez, I fully agree with you. The purpose of the discussion about "what I'm doing" isn't purely to discuss something that we already know, but more rather to debunk the comments about "we should run the WRS system, that system works." Etc.


I do not agree with that. I'm opinionated. I admit it. But, I try to give people the choice to believe/say/do whatever they want, whether it's racing series, religions, etc. So, I'm saying what I believe, and allowing for the same discussion of whether or not we're doing things right in GT5.



The GT6 OLR forums aren't posted yet. We need to discuss everything and decide what we can do better. If we discuss what we're doing with GT5 wrong and right, we'll find out what we're doing wrong and right.


I feel like we've all got pros and cons, like ITCC's chances for anyone to win with 36+ races per season, and the negative very difficult penalty decisions.


If we work on what we're not doing well, surely we'll improve as a whole.

 

[polarbear345]

Hmm, let's try and shift focus away from our own series for a bit and talk about helping the community in general. This thread's turning into a bit of, "well this is how I do it."

We already know how you guys run things and what's worked. It's not like you come from distant planets, everyone reads each other's threads you know.

What you guys can do is try to imagine yourselves as being newcomers to the forum and this section, what's lacking? Does it feel inviting or not? Do the sections seem confusing? Etc.

Thank you!

It was brought up before here, but a little tag like in the motorsports section may be nice to have. Like the NASCAR series will have that at the end of the title, and the open wheel series would have a open wheel tag and so on.

That would help with knowing what type of series it is.

 

[Zuel]

I'm not a fan of the WRS tag thing, putting drivers together based on talent because I doubt that they will learn from the best. Quite the opposite, they'll learn from the fastest driver in their division, which may be the wrong way to drive that they learned from a different fastest guy in a different division... And before you know it, everyone's making the wrong sorts of mistakes, which will make them slower.

I can see how it may be a bother running a series with the WRS qualifying structure is place due to some may feel that they're not getting anywhere withing their division and learning what they need to know to advance.

I'll share a short detail about my planes for the TUDOR series in the area of placement, advancement and competition. Within the series you have the main racing body which has five classes along with six feeder series. The feeder series include a Touring Car series and five one manufacture series. New and upcoming drivers that enter the TUDOR United Sports Car Championship must enter the first feeder series. To advance through the classes of the feeder series drivers must complete competition requirements. Once a driver meet those requirements they can advance to the next class or series. There is also a competition requirements for entering the next class or series.

If a driver is having trouble advancing through the classes or feeders series that driver can chose to be team up with one of the top 10 drivers from either class within the main racing body. This in turn will help both drivers advance in skill and through the different race classes and feeder series.

Now back to topic on how to help the community in the matter of GTP Online racing. How are we going to make this transition seamless and painless? What can we come up with to make the GTP Online racing more competitive, easier to find the series you and how to expand on the WRS racing before GT6 comes out. Seven weeks is not that long.

 

[Oniichan]

Yeah agree with having a main forum with subs. Example of structure;

Main - Online Racing
Sub - NASCAR
- GT3
- LeMans
- One Makes
- Touring Cars

This will make it easier to sort through series you prefer to race in. The main Online forum could be used for interest check, spot races or even series that don't fit into a category.

The World GT Challenge series I developed required drivers to have it.

​

Yeah thats exactly what ill be doing for the ORS. It helps competitors feel more involved and apart of something. Rather then just another number to fill the room. Everyone wants to bring the feeling of a real racing series to the game.

Something i believe GTP needs to do as well. Be more then just a forum. Be a movement to starting a real sport of online racing. Similar to the MLG for FPS games.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

@ Zuel, Striker... You're over complicating. Let people race what they want.


@ Oni, yes! That's the best way to implement the idea I had in the previous pages.