On the Morality of Torture

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Would you be happy if someone mistakenly thought you were going to be responsible for killing thousands of people and therefore decided it was alright to torture you?

Or to put it another way don't do to others what you wouldn't want them to do to you.

It's not like the military simply walks up to you and says,"where gonna torture you because we see you as a threat". These people aren't mistakenly tortured.

They're first taken in to be questioned, then if there answers don't comply, or they won't answer a question, they are then tortured. And usually, after being tortured, they will answer the question without hesitation, thereby giving the military useful info on how to stop the terrorist's plan to kill thousands of people.
 
It's not like the military simply walks up to you and says,"where gonna torture you because we see you as a threat". These people aren't mistakenly tortured.

They're first taken in to be questioned, then if there answers don't comply, or they won't answer a question, they are then tortured. And usually, after being tortured, they will answer the question without hesitation, thereby giving the military useful info on how to stop the terrorist's plan to kill thousands of people.

I think it's likely that you're oversimplifying things to a dangerous degree. It's unavoidable in situations where a military body is allowed to detain people without much oversight that innocents WILL be among them. Hell, the American justice system executes innocent people on occasion, and it's supposed to be the most transparent in the world.

This becomes a particular problem when one considers how unpalatable the public finds the details of torture. The idea of it? Sure, it sounds good. When a pollster asks the average citizen his opinion of torture, the citizen naturally thinks "dunk a dude in some water and defuse a bomb". But make them WATCH what they claim to support, or attempt to understand that they're not being asked about a scenario out of an episode of '24'? No way. They'd much rather contract barbarous behavior out to someone else and remain ignorant of the particulars. In a situation like this, it becomes impossible for the public to form an honest opinion on torture, when it's, by its very nature, an opaque process.
 
I think you're all missing the point. No right is so sacred that it cannot be forfeit by immoral actions. This is because of the reciprocal nature of rights. Since the right not to be tortured can, in fact, be forfeit, torture can be justified.

Q.E.D.
 
The 'two-wrongs-don't-make-a-right'/'then-you're-just-as-bad-as-they-are' that people are clinging to in this thread are dicta that have always troubled me. So person A commits an act against person B and person B responds with an act against them. Person B acted with the excuse of person A committing an act against them, but person A had no excuse. The contexts in which these 'wrongs' were commited are not singular, like the dictum implies.
 
It's not like the military simply walks up to you and says,"where gonna torture you because we see you as a threat". These people aren't mistakenly tortured.

They're first taken in to be questioned, then if there answers don't comply, or they won't answer a question, they are then tortured. And usually, after being tortured, they will answer the question without hesitation, thereby giving the military useful info on how to stop the terrorist's plan to kill thousands of people.

That's the most juvenile breakdown of the mechanics of torture I've ever seen.

Bravo.
 
They're first taken in to be questioned, then if there answers don't comply, or they won't answer a question, they are then tortured. And usually, after being tortured, they will answer the question without hesitation, thereby giving the military useful info on how to stop the terrorist's plan to kill thousands of people.

What is it the likeliness that the tortured gives up accurate information to the the torturer? It would seem if one is being tortured they would say anything just to make it stop. I brought up this point once before in this thread and I think it still holds true.
 
What is it the likeliness that the tortured gives up accurate information to the the torturer? It would seem if one is being tortured they would say anything just to make it stop. I brought up this point once before in this thread and I think it still holds true.

I does hold true. It's been demonstrated repeatedly that torture does not yield reliable information, nor does it constitute an effective deterrent to lying in the first place.
 
What is it the likeliness that the tortured gives up accurate information to the the torturer? It would seem if one is being tortured they would say anything just to make it stop. I brought up this point once before in this thread and I think it still holds true.

Of course it is still true! Just because something can be "justified" by contortions of law, reason and logic doesn't mean it is either moral or useful.

Respectfully,
Dotini
 
I think you're all missing the point. No right is so sacred that it cannot be forfeit by immoral actions. This is because of the reciprocal nature of rights. Since the right not to be tortured can, in fact, be forfeit, torture can be justified.

Q.E.D.
to be clear are you sayin tourture is an acceptable form of punishment,and yes rights are taken away but that is justafied as punishment. I don,t believe you can justafy torture as punishnent the justifacation for torture lies elsewhere.
 
Nope.

I'm saying torture is an acceptable action given the right circumstances.

I'd be interested to hear your logical justification for this, along with a reasonable method to judge where the line of acceptability lies. Similarly I'd like to see your logical backing for your previous assertion that no right whatsoever is so fundamental that it can't be taken away. I have a basic idea of what shape it will take, and I'll say again that I can see granting exceptions to certain of my positions in dire "lifeboat" situations, but I don't honestly see how such exceptions could morally justify, let alone make morally practicable, institutionalized torture as a means of the common defense.
 
Personally i believe that if you want RELIABLE information from a captured enemy and that information is time sensitive, there is no substitute for something like a Pentathol/Fentanyl cocktail.

If you have the time, there are long term variations of "good cop/bad cop" that can be very effective....
 
Gil
Personally i believe that if you want RELIABLE information from a captured enemy and that information is time sensitive, there is no substitute for something like a Pentathol/Fentanyl cocktail.

If you have the time, there are long term variations of "good cop/bad cop" that can be very effective....

Aren't subjects under pentathol too suggestible and likely to give false information if given the wrong leading questions? (Though this is a much bigger issue with torture, apparently).
 
I'd be interested to hear your logical justification for this, along with a reasonable method to judge where the line of acceptability lies. Similarly I'd like to see your logical backing for your previous assertion that no right whatsoever is so fundamental that it can't be taken away. I have a basic idea of what shape it will take, and I'll say again that I can see granting exceptions to certain of my positions in dire "lifeboat" situations, but I don't honestly see how such exceptions could morally justify, let alone make morally practicable, institutionalized torture as a means of the common defense.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=3377033&postcount=1
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=103958
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=2959837&postcount=15
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=77925
 
Aren't subjects under pentathol too suggestible and likely to give false information if given the wrong leading questions? (Though this is a much bigger issue with torture, apparently).

While that is possibly true with pentathol, there are many other drugs out there that can do the job.

The fentanyl, is a pain/amnesiac drug. It'll make you forget the recent trauma.
They gave it to me for a semi surgical, but wholly unpleasant procedure, and I don't know what went on, just that afterward, I peed blood for 12 hours...

Further, going to Danoff's post above, I have to WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree with the first link.
It was what I was trying to say, however inelegantly, above. (post # 140)
 

At first brush, I think I agree with most of your characterizations of individual rights.

That said, I think such a position serves only to justify what I already grant to be the "lifeboat" situations - situations where institutionalized practice isn't an issue, and it's left to one individual or a smallish group of individuals to make a crucial and immediate decision which, if made, will likely save lives.

As I've said before though, life isn't an episode of '24'. The immediate moral imperative to act in a 'ticking bomb' scenario could, I suppose, conceivably exist on rare occasion, but it's far more the stomping ground of Hollywood screenwriters than it is a realistic picture of torture in a modern context. Essentially, looking at torture only as a pure abstraction in the context of other pure abstractions like rights ignores the vitally important influence of concrete reality. This isn't to say that morality is wholly relative or 'elastic', merely that it is contextual, and not simply a reciprocal exchange taking place on a movie set.

Looking at torture as a government-sanctioned institution, which is the real question at hand, is problematic. One has to consider the means by which individual rights are entrusted to the government of said individuals for protection by the exercise of powers. This is an entirely different debate for another thread, but I'd argue that the application of torture on an institutional basis by a government is an unjustifiable exercise of power. One might try to support it by a rights-based moral argument, but such use of power itself is not a direct result of scrutinizing rights alone. As a (brutally physical) exercise of power, it has to be subject to realistic considerations far more complex than a direct examination of one individual infringing upon another's rights. One might think this conflates the arguments about the morality of torture and the reasonability of torture, but as I'm sure particularly Danoff would agree, morality follows from reason, not the other way around.

Defining the discussion too narrowly (which I think your argument does) forbids considering the multitude of important factors that many have mentioned. Among these, I find the actual efficacy of torture, or lack thereof, to be fairly compelling. Likewise the inevitability of torturing the innocent who are inadvertently swept up in the net is profoundly disturbing. Under your reciprocity-based argument, anyone we inadvertently tortured would immediately be morally permitted to torture those responsible for his torture. When torture is an organized and systematic institution, those responsible for his torture would include anyone involved in perpetuating the institution: the soldiers who physically committed the act, their commanding officers, their C.O.'s C.O.s, et al, all the way up, presumably, to the Commander in Chief. This should strike any reasonable thinker as absurd.

Finally and crucially, one must consider the effects on the individual or group that actually commits torture. This is primarily important in a discussion of morality - we can clearly demonstrate that terrorists are immoral and from that there are some reasonable arguments to be made that they may deserve it. We, the victims of their violence however, certainly ought not doubly victimize ourselves. While I'm glad to say I have no direct experience of this myself, I can only surmise that the act of inflicting deliberate and prolonged misery and fear of death on another human being, despite whatever he may have done to deserve it, would be, at the very least, emotionally damaging. Further, I think this suggests serious maladjustment on the part of, and does serious damage to, any individual willing to perform it or any society willing to condone it.

This entire debate could be applied to the death penalty as well. I will admit that it's possible to morally justify that fact that one can commit acts such that he relinquishes certain rights, and in cases of justice where incarceration alone is appropriate, that's fine. When the right relinquished, though, is (life/protection from torture), one encounters a serious moral problem. One human being must either be willing to, or be coerced to, kill or torture another human being. In the face of this unpalatable truth, observation of reality tells us that there are methods of justice more effective and more humane than either act. In sum, if viewed strictly from the perspective of reciprocity, killing and torture are reduced to acts of revenge, (theoretically) removed from its classical emotional context.
 
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What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

If it is justifiable for the regime in power here and now to institutionalize torture, then why not for all the other regimes in power everywhere and at all times?

In my heart, I believe that torture is wrong, sick and sadistic. Quite likely the same thing applies to those who practice it and would seek to justify it either before or after the fact. In any case, it is a slippery slope leading to ever greater depravity and perversion. We need to walk this back, not follow the path of darkness.

Respectfully submitted,
Dotini
 
In any case, it is a slippery slope leading to ever greater depravity and perversion. We need to walk this back, not follow the path of darkness.

I almost thought I was watching the Lord of the Rings now :P
 
What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

If it is justifiable for the regime in power here and now to institutionalize torture, then why not for all the other regimes in power everywhere and at all times?

In my heart, I believe that torture is wrong, sick and sadistic. Quite likely the same thing applies to those who practice it and would seek to justify it either before or after the fact. In any case, it is a slippery slope leading to ever greater depravity and perversion. We need to walk this back, not follow the path of darkness.

Respectfully submitted,
Dotini

Quoted for truth +1 👍
 
At first brush, I think I agree with most of your characterizations of individual rights.

That said, I think such a position serves only to justify what I already grant to be the "lifeboat" situations - situations where institutionalized practice isn't an issue, and it's left to one individual or a smallish group of individuals to make a crucial and immediate decision which, if made, will likely save lives.

As I've said before though, life isn't an episode of '24'. The immediate moral imperative to act in a 'ticking bomb' scenario could, I suppose, conceivably exist on rare occasion, but it's far more the stomping ground of Hollywood screenwriters than it is a realistic picture of torture in a modern context. Essentially, looking at torture only as a pure abstraction in the context of other pure abstractions like rights ignores the vitally important influence of concrete reality. This isn't to say that morality is wholly relative or 'elastic', merely that it is contextual, and not simply a reciprocal exchange taking place on a movie set.

Looking at torture as a government-sanctioned institution, which is the real question at hand, is problematic. One has to consider the means by which individual rights are entrusted to the government of said individuals for protection by the exercise of powers. This is an entirely different debate for another thread, but I'd argue that the application of torture on an institutional basis by a government is an unjustifiable exercise of power. One might try to support it by a rights-based moral argument, but such use of power itself is not a direct result of scrutinizing rights alone. As a (brutally physical) exercise of power, it has to be subject to realistic considerations far more complex than a direct examination of one individual infringing upon another's rights. One might think this conflates the arguments about the morality of torture and the reasonability of torture, but as I'm sure particularly Danoff would agree, morality follows from reason, not the other way around.

Defining the discussion too narrowly (which I think your argument does) forbids considering the multitude of important factors that many have mentioned. Among these, I find the actual efficacy of torture, or lack thereof, to be fairly compelling. Likewise the inevitability of torturing the innocent who are inadvertently swept up in the net is profoundly disturbing. Under your reciprocity-based argument, anyone we inadvertently tortured would immediately be morally permitted to torture those responsible for his torture. When torture is an organized and systematic institution, those responsible for his torture would include anyone involved in perpetuating the institution: the soldiers who physically committed the act, their commanding officers, their C.O.'s C.O.s, et al, all the way up, presumably, to the Commander in Chief. This should strike any reasonable thinker as absurd.

Finally and crucially, one must consider the effects on the individual or group that actually commits torture. This is primarily important in a discussion of morality - we can clearly demonstrate that terrorists are immoral and from that there are some reasonable arguments to be made that they may deserve it. We, the victims of their violence however, certainly ought not doubly victimize ourselves. While I'm glad to say I have no direct experience of this myself, I can only surmise that the act of inflicting deliberate and prolonged misery and fear of death on another human being, despite whatever he may have done to deserve it, would be, at the very least, emotionally damaging. Further, I think this suggests serious maladjustment on the part of, and does serious damage to, any individual willing to perform it or any society willing to condone it.

This entire debate could be applied to the death penalty as well. I will admit that it's possible to morally justify that fact that one can commit acts such that he relinquishes certain rights, and in cases of justice where incarceration alone is appropriate, that's fine. When the right relinquished, though, is (life/protection from torture), one encounters a serious moral problem. One human being must either be willing to, or be coerced to, kill or torture another human being. In the face of this unpalatable truth, observation of reality tells us that there are methods of justice more effective and more humane than either act. In sum, if viewed strictly from the perspective of reciprocity, killing and torture are reduced to acts of revenge, (theoretically) removed from its classical emotional context.

Crafty, I'd like to reduce your post here to a few key points. If you think I missed a point or misrepresented any points - feel free to let me know. I'm partially trying to make sure I understand you by reflecting your argument.

1) The ticking time bomb torture scenario isn't practical.
2) Individual justification for torture does not apply to government
3) Someone must be willing to perform the torture and be prepared to cope with emotional effects.
4) Inadvertent institutionalized torture could open officials up for reprisal.

I'll address those points individually.

1) The ticking time bomb scenario isn't important to me because I don't attempt to use inherently flawed "ends justify the means" reasoning to justify torture.

2) Government action is curtailed by infringement of human rights. The proper objective of government is to protect human rights while not infringing the rights of others. If one has relinquished their right against torture through their actions, they become open to action from ANYONE (including the government). Governments actions are limited to protecting the rights of its citizens, but torture can be used to protect the rights of citizens. So if someone no longer possesses a right against torture, they are potentially open to government action.

3) Since human rights are still a primary factor, obviously no one can be coerced to torture another human being. A willing executioner is required for the action to be performed. If one cannot be found, the action cannot be performed. If one is found, though, that person is free to perform the action. Again, in the interest of human rights ,if the government is hiring someone to perform torture, the government may wish to perform extensive psychological evaluations before and after the event to ensure that they are not compromising the rights of others by hiring someone to do something that is psychologically damaging to the point of being dangerous to others. If it can be shown that no person is capable of performing torture without becoming a danger to society - it may be deemed harmful for government to engage in it altogether (though the same argument could be made for soldiers). This has not been shown, however, and so we can't rule it out on this basis yet.

4) Inadvertent anything is always considered less dangerous to society and sentencing takes this into account. Inadvertent murder does not draw the death penalty. Likewise inadvertent torture would not draw a torture sentence.

There are only two cases to consider when it comes to reprisal.

a) The person being institutionally tortured is innocent
b) The person being institutionally tortured is guilty (of something worthy of torture)

In the case where the person is guilty, reprisal is not justifiable and need not be considered. Such an act would violate human rights and would open that individual to protective force. In the case where the person is innocent, the torture is inadvertent and is not considered as serious or dangerous an offense as intentional torture (again, much like murder). Given the above, there is no circumstance in which the executioner of torture for the state would open himself to torture as a reprisal - or the person who ordered him to do it, or the person who ordered the person who ordered him to do it. All of them may be open to some sort of force, but torture would be out of the question unless in could be shown that they intentionally tortured a known innocent person - most likely multiple known innocent people.
 
1) The ticking time bomb scenario isn't important to me because I don't attempt to use inherently flawed "ends justify the means" reasoning to justify torture.

You're right, you have never taken that position, but what I'm trying to get at is that I think that your position only morally justifies a "time bomb" situation. I'll explain further in my response to #2.

2) Government action is curtailed by infringement of human rights. The proper objective of government is to protect human rights while not infringing the rights of others. If one has relinquished their right against torture through their actions, they become open to action from ANYONE (including the government). Governments actions are limited to protecting the rights of its citizens, but torture can be used to protect the rights of citizens. So if someone no longer possesses a right against torture, they are potentially open to government action.

If someone relinquishes a right, I agree that they become open to action. But I don't think they become open to action by ANYONE - this would be a rather anarchistic morality. I don't think this gives the government an automatic green-light to respond, either. The "time bomb" scenario we discussed above involves the direct involvement of individuals with full knowledge of the situation at hand, and a clear, known impetus to act. Allowing the government to institutionalize the response, though, essentially allows public vote to remove the rights of a person or group, which I think we all know you're rather diametrically opposed to, given your signature. ;) In a generally functional democracy, the means by which the public entrusts its rights to the government for protection is election. The majority selects people it most generally agrees with to place in positions of power, trusting that they will exercise such power in a manner they find appropriate. This is not, however, approval-by-proxy to commit torture. To cannibalize a phrase we often use in another thread, extraordinary acts require extraordinary consent. Our justice system reflects this. In cases where the stakes are confinement or worse, we aren't content to allow elected officials or their appointees to decide for us. Our constitution insists that the decision be made by a dispassionate jury comprised of the general citizenry, moderated by the trained deliberation of a judge. As the very nature of torture as a government must implement it requires a large measure of secrecy to be at all effective, such transparency is impossible.

3) Since human rights are still a primary factor, obviously no one can be coerced to torture another human being. A willing executioner is required for the action to be performed. If one cannot be found, the action cannot be performed. If one is found, though, that person is free to perform the action. Again, in the interest of human rights ,if the government is hiring someone to perform torture, the government may wish to perform extensive psychological evaluations before and after the event to ensure that they are not compromising the rights of others by hiring someone to do something that is psychologically damaging to the point of being dangerous to others. If it can be shown that no person is capable of performing torture without becoming a danger to society - it may be deemed harmful for government to engage in it altogether (though the same argument could be made for soldiers). This has not been shown, however, and so we can't rule it out on this basis yet.

I suppose we wait for the facts on this one. I suspect we may not see them anytime soon as I have trouble picturing the government publishing psychological research on those it hires to commit torture.

I think it's a fair to say, though, that since we have evolved with a demonstrable hardwired predilection to empathy, it's hard to imagine a case in which a properly adjusted human could commit torture without himself suffering great harm. The high rates of PTSD among soldiers who have seen direct combat only further suggests that, since torture is qualitatively more personal, intense, and sadistic than combat, it's likely (though I grant, as yet, unproveable) that the aftereffects are amplified beyond those of a combat veteran.

4) Inadvertent anything is always considered less dangerous to society and sentencing takes this into account. Inadvertent murder does not draw the death penalty. Likewise inadvertent torture would not draw a torture sentence.

There are only two cases to consider when it comes to reprisal.

a) The person being institutionally tortured is innocent
b) The person being institutionally tortured is guilty (of something worthy of torture)

In the case where the person is guilty, reprisal is not justifiable and need not be considered. Such an act would violate human rights and would open that individual to protective force. In the case where the person is innocent, the torture is inadvertent and is not considered as serious or dangerous an offense as intentional torture (again, much like murder). Given the above, there is no circumstance in which the executioner of torture for the state would open himself to torture as a reprisal - or the person who ordered him to do it, or the person who ordered the person who ordered him to do it. All of them may be open to some sort of force, but torture would be out of the question unless in could be shown that they intentionally tortured a known innocent person - most likely multiple known innocent people.

It's worth noting that in many cases of what was presumed to be manslaughter, it's been demonstrated that the defendent had a resonable foreknowledge that his actions would create circumstances that would very likely cause death. In these cases, manslaughter became murder. In this light, it should be blatantly apparent that a government sponsoring torture on the scale we're talking about MUST reasonably expect to inadvertently torture some innocents. I'd argue that this calls the "inadvertency" of such torture into serious question. Do I personally believe, or do I think that you believe that in these cases we should give the victim of accidental torture a car battery, a set of jumper cables and a bucket of water and send him off after the President? Certainly not. All I'm saying is that I think your argument opens the door to such absurd scenarios.
 
I'll respond to the parts where we still disagree.

If someone relinquishes a right, I agree that they become open to action. But I don't think they become open to action by ANYONE - this would be a rather anarchistic morality.

Not only would it not be anarchistic, but it is necessary that anyone be capable of taking action. No person is more justified in taking action than any other - including the government. This is because of the nature of government and of human rights. I'll give you two scenarios for how this works. One with action against a guilty party and one action against an innocent party.

The first scenario is the following:

Someone breaks into my house, fatally shoots me, drops his gun and runs.

This scenario has two outcomes:
1) My wife shoots him in his head and kills him as he flees.
2) The government apprehends him months later, finds him guilty, and executes him.

Those outcomes are morally equivalent. He was judged guilty based on the evidence, and his life was forfeit the moment he violated my rights. It doesn't matter who kills him as long as they were justified in doing so.

Here's the second scenario:

Someone runs from my house with a gun in his hand. My neighbor mistakes this man for being a murderer and shoots him. In this case, the man was innocent. He happened to be a friend of mine and he was running to return the gun to someone before they drove away (whatever... it doesn't matter).

In this case, my neighbor is apprehended by the state and incarcerated for manslaughter or some degree of murder (I'm not sure of the legal particulars).

As you can see, anarchy is not the result. The result is that your actions need to be carefully justified. You still don't really want to be taking the law into your own hands.

Allowing the government to institutionalize the response, though, essentially allows public vote to remove the rights of a person or group, which I think we all know you're rather diametrically opposed to, given your signature. ;)

I don't agree. You could be talking about any rights taken away for any crime - and you'd be just as wrong. The fact that someone's freedom is taken away (for a short time) because they stole someone's property is not akin to the majority voting away the rights of the minority. The thief forfeit some of his own rights by his own actions. No one voted them away.

It's worth noting that in many cases of what was presumed to be manslaughter, it's been demonstrated that the defendent had a resonable foreknowledge that his actions would create circumstances that would very likely cause death. In these cases, manslaughter became murder. In this light, it should be blatantly apparent that a government sponsoring torture on the scale we're talking about MUST reasonably expect to inadvertently torture some innocents. I'd argue that this calls the "inadvertency" of such torture into serious question. Do I personally believe, or do I think that you believe that in these cases we should give the victim of accidental torture a car battery, a set of jumper cables and a bucket of water and send him off after the President? Certainly not. All I'm saying is that I think your argument opens the door to such absurd scenarios.

I don't agree that my argument opens those doors. When you drive down the road you know that driving on the SCALE that you're participating in is going to get some innocent people killed. That you're one of millions who are driving, and that it's not possible that such an action will not result in someone's death. Does this make you guilty of pre-meditated murder when you accidentally hit someone and kill them? Obviously not.
 
Not only would it not be anarchistic, but it is necessary that anyone be capable of taking action. No person is more justified in taking action than any other - including the government. This is because of the nature of government and of human rights. I'll give you two scenarios for how this works. One with action against a guilty party and one action against an innocent party.

The first scenario is the following:

Someone breaks into my house, fatally shoots me, drops his gun and runs.

This scenario has two outcomes:
1) My wife shoots him in his head and kills him as he flees.
2) The government apprehends him months later, finds him guilty, and executes him.

Those outcomes are morally equivalent. He was judged guilty based on the evidence, and his life was forfeit the moment he violated my rights. It doesn't matter who kills him as long as they were justified in doing so.

Here's the second scenario:

Someone runs from my house with a gun in his hand. My neighbor mistakes this man for being a murderer and shoots him. In this case, the man was innocent. He happened to be a friend of mine and he was running to return the gun to someone before they drove away (whatever... it doesn't matter).

In this case, my neighbor is apprehended by the state and incarcerated for manslaughter or some degree of murder (I'm not sure of the legal particulars).

As you can see, anarchy is not the result. The result is that your actions need to be carefully justified. You still don't really want to be taking the law into your own hands.

I can understand your views regarding the anarchy question, but more to the point I think you make a good argument for my view on torture when you qualify your view of social order by putting a premium on careful justification. There simply is, for me, no evidentiary way to justify torture, even if a forfeiture of rights has taken place - this was my entire point to begin with, when I said that I think a purely rights-based argument too narrowly defines the discussion.

I don't agree. You could be talking about any rights taken away for any crime - and you'd be just as wrong. The fact that someone's freedom is taken away (for a short time) because they stole someone's property is not akin to the majority voting away the rights of the minority. The thief forfeit some of his own rights by his own actions. No one voted them away.

I think I should reemphasize this point, which is not about a direct critique of an Ayn Rand quote. Our system of justice holds that a direct democratic process should be involved in situations where the neccessary response is as serious as incarceration. This is why juries exist, and that is why criminal trials by jury are not "proxy-voted right-stripping", if you will. We as a society don't allow such weighty action to be taken only by those who serve in our stead by popular acclaim - we insist on direct involvement through (generally) random selection of dispassionate individuals. "Torture juries", which I'd have to insist on if I could even contemplate morally justifiable torture, don't seem like a concept congruent with the realistic conditions under which torture, as an institution, must operate to be effective. Further, I'd argue that if "dispassionate" individuals were to exist in such a "jury pool", they'd have to come from outside the borders of the country that claims victimhood. This presents another entire set of problems that I don't think I need to elaborate on.

I don't agree that my argument opens those doors. When you drive down the road you know that driving on the SCALE that you're participating in is going to get some innocent people killed. That you're one of millions who are driving, and that it's not possible that such an action will not result in someone's death. Does this make you guilty of pre-meditated murder when you accidentally hit someone and kill them? Obviously not.

Driving achieves a specific, demonstrable goal that is to the benefit of society, and is done, obviously, without intent to kill, as you say. But there IS a contextual continuum that has to be considered. To borrow your analogy, look at driving drunk. There's still the general goal of arriving at a destination without incident, but one MUST reasonably expect the danger to others and to one's self to be enormously amplified. This is why we punish drunk drivers who kill 'accidentally' much more severely than sober drivers who kill accidentally. To further this point, it's important that we now divorce the concepts of justice and torture for the distinction between efficacy in practice and demonstrable furtherance of the public good. In the face of convincing evidence for the ineffectiveness of torture, instituting it at the governmental level would appear to have no justification outside of emotional response (anger, revenge, etc.). I would say this would be just as irrational an act as driving drunk, and those entering into it with full knowledge of the possible consequences (torturing innocents) must be judged more harshly than those who had a reasonable expectation of commiting the same acts with socially desireable results and minimal inadvertent offense.

I think we've reached a point of contention that we may not resolve. I understand that you believe that a moral argument in the beginning removes any need to examine either the means or the end. I believe that one should consider the beginning, and everything that follows from it, which demands thorough examination of both the means and the end.
 
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Yea, you seem to think that practicality is really important here. I'm not particularly interested in whether this is practical or not - because if it's not we just shouldn't do it. My contention is that if we can find a practical way to do it - it can be justified, it's an option. Typically, in discussions such as these, one side says "the ends justifies the means", and the other side says "it's immoral". I disagree with both statements. But if you're just saying that while torture can be moral, there is no practical implementation of it - I'll usually drop out of the discussion at that point. It's just not nearly as interesting to me.

I will disagree with this though:

Crafty
We as a society don't allow such weighty action to be taken only by those who serve in our stead by popular acclaim - we insist on direct involvement through (generally) random selection of dispassionate individuals.

We're still choosing someone to act in our stead, we're just doing it at random to attempt to nullify any chance of bias. But I don't really see torture being implemented on a civilian basis. I'd see this as something that military courts are primarily interested in. And when you've captured Saddam Hussein, who's crimes are well documented and extensive, the standard of proof is met to justify torture.

As an aside, I would probably not condone torture as a punishment method alone. There would need to be an ulterior motive - information of some sort. It's not the punitive torture couldn't be justified - it certainly could - it's just that it's not necessary and really serves no good.
 
And when you've captured Saddam Hussein, who's crimes are well documented and extensive, the standard of proof is met to justify torture.

As an aside, I would probably not condone torture as a punishment method alone. There would need to be an ulterior motive - information of some sort. It's not the punitive torture couldn't be justified - it certainly could - it's just that it's not necessary and really serves no good.

This person is saying torture is justified not in any attempt to save anybody, but purely as punishment. This person is sick and needs help. If he has any friends here, the time for intervention is now.

In sorrow,
Dotini
 
This person is saying torture is justified not in any attempt to save anybody, but purely as punishment. This person is sick and needs help. If he has any friends here, the time for intervention is now.

In sorrow,
Dotini

Yup, I'm a real menace to society. Better watch out or if I find out you killed 10's of thousands of people I might not be upset if someone took their time killing you. Guess I'm a real sicko.
 
Yup, I'm a real menace to society. Better watch out or if I find out you killed 10's of thousands of people I might not be upset if someone took their time killing you. Guess I'm a real sicko.

Quivering in my boots over here ... :sly:

I don't think you have anything to worry about, Dotini. This is the part of the discussion where we agree that we won't see entirely eye to eye, and drink irresponsible amounts of beer.
 
It is worth noting that the information one receives from torturing another is highly inaccurate. A man will say anything when faced in the threat of torture - who is to say that this information is accurate as the criminal claims?
I agree that using torture as a punishment is an inhumane thing to do. When faced with conflict a one has to show the opposition that they are the moral person, torture does not achieve this. Fighting fire with fire does not help extinguish the inferno but instead creates a bigger flame. If two parties are so full of hate then who is to say whom of the two is the better?
 
It is worth noting that the information one receives from torturing another is highly inaccurate. A man will say anything when faced in the threat of torture - who is to say that this information is accurate as the criminal claims?
I agree that using torture as a punishment is an inhumane thing to do. When faced with conflict a one has to show the opposition that they are the moral person, torture does not achieve this. Fighting fire with fire does not help extinguish the inferno but instead creates a bigger flame. If two parties are so full of hate then who is to say whom of the two is the better?

Lots of assumptions there. That information is inaccurate (not sure why torture is still going on after thousands of years if that's the case), that it's necessarily inhumane, that it's immoral, that it will cause further hostilities, and that it stems from hate.

None of those are proven.
 
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